Investment banker thinks he deserves a second date

A woman goes to the philharmonic in New York City alone. She meets a guy who is also alone. He asks her for a date, she goes once, doesn’t want to go again. She doesn’t return his calls. He sends an e-mail demanding to know why. Woman is so astounded she posts it on the Internet.

Read An investment banker’s cover letter for a second date, on Reddit.com.

Story suggested by a Lovefraud reader.

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161 Comments on "Investment banker thinks he deserves a second date"

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WOW! Absolute narcissistic no boundaries behavior! No contact! It made me sick to my stomach and hit very close to home for me. What a sicko…RUN, Lauren, RUN!

Hit too close to home for me. Shalom

You know it DOES “hit close to home” for a lot of us I think because this guy thinks he is SOOOOO ENTITLED, and though he knows she has set a “boundary” that she does not want to go out with him again, he does NOT respect that boundary and tries to “reason” with her, show who why she is WRONG to even expect to be able to resist him….I liked the part where he said he didn’t like her quite as much as he did because she hadn’t answered him. LOL ROTFLMAO

This is a perfect example I think of the narcissistic, entitled mind set of “some people”–what a CLOD!

And he signed it “Mike” ugh…Michael…

Yea, Ana, that was what I thought when I saw it! “Mike”—so much like our own troll’s narcissistic sense of entitlement–“you don’t want me here, but I will be here anyway, Donna can’t drive me away, I’ll just change my name and IP address and come back anyway” LOL

Actually I thought this guy’s sense of entitlement was rolling on the floor FUNNY and in a way so is “Michael’s” because he just does NOT get it, and isn’t going to respect anyone else’s boundaries.

This guy too, with his gonna give her another change for a date, when she had made it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR she does NOT want another date is sooooo narcissistic it is funny. Talk about “NOT getting it.” LOL His fascination with her twirling her hair, he thinks that is a “come on” when it is probably her signal that she is BORED beyond tears. Can’t you just see her sitting there twiddling her hair waiting impatiently for the “date” to be OVER, probably rolling her eyes even! And he thinks that is a COME ON!!!!!! LOL ROTFLMAO What an IDIOT THIS GUY IS!

ps the comments are the best part of it all!

Oxy and Ana: I am glad I wasn’t the only one. Michael came to mind immediately. Shalom

Forget the red flags, this guy came wrapped in a red banner.

Run, run like the wind…….

am I the only one who feels sorry for him?
He obviously is socially inept to the point where he has to look up what different body language means. He is trying really hard to create a life which appears normal by compensating for his lack of social skills with knowledge. I would say he’s on the autism spectrum.

His request for feedback is reasonable in a world of facts and logic – which is where he lives.

Having met a woman who meets his criteria as a perfect woman (she likes classical music and agreed to date him once) he idealized her and invested into a fantasy of a serious relationship. He’s confused and is trying to unravel the confusion. I agree that she should have responded to him, I think she was rude.

Sky ~ we posted over each other.

Sky, my mentor, don’t do this to me……. please

The spathinator can be a real heartbreaker! 🙂

I’m sorry, I just don’t get it either, I guess. Really. I feel sorry for him – am I a moron? maybe.

I wouldn’t go out with him. I would set my boundaries. But I wouldn’t be rude. I’m never rude. People come on to me all the time, males and females, and I always explain graciously why I don’t want to have sex with them.

Yeah, I know I’m weird that way, maybe I’m a door mat… maybe you can set me straight. I never said I was the most emotionally healthy person in the world. If I was, I wouldn’t have ended up with the spath. I didn’t have boundaries, I didn’t even know what they WERE until Kathleen Hawk explained them to me. So I DO have boundaries now, but I just can’t be rude to someone who has not hurt me.

Don’t look up to me MiLo, I need help navigating too. We’re in this together.

you smart ass! help me out. explain what I’m missing…
jeez, now I sound like Michael the spath. but I’m serious. Why is it ok to be rude to someone who has not hurt you?

YOU! You GNAT! How dare you reject me before I can dismiss you! Now be VERY nice to me, make a pretty apology, and I MIGHT give you another chance to appreciate how wonderful I am.

Think I will copy this letter and send it to all the men I’ve had a first date with and not a second. B/c it does sound like a girly whine… if we had a great date, why wouldn’t you go out with me again b/c i could see us married… ?

Sky ~ you are the far from a moron.

I’m trying to put into words what you may be missing and it is hard. All I can tell you is my reaction AS I was reading – 1. ewwww 2. a second date would almost certainly mean finding this woman’s body parts in a suitcase, in a dumpster 3. Not responding was probably the only thing he would understand 4. The way he must have been “watching” her during the date, I hope he is not stalking her. 5 ewwwww

I’m not trying to be smart here, this is truly what I felt. Oh, and I do look up to you, even if you do need help navigating.

I can see where this guy MIGHT be asperger’s or something along that line, BUT….even if he were, he is somehow feeling ENTITLED to an answer to his e mails and texts, and NO ONE IS ENTITLED to an answer like that. NO ANSWER **IS*** an answer.

She obviously went NC with him….her RIGHT to do so.

He was not willing to Accept NC as her right or her answer. He accused her of being “rude”—-

NO, do not buy into his accusations of her being “rude.” She is NOT OBLIGED to “answer” his e mails or texts, a guy she just met and went out with ONCE. He bought her dinner and now she MUST ANSWER every e mail he sends to her, every text?

Then she must EXPLAIN WHY the date wasn’t as good for her as it was for him, and then he ACCUSES her of “leading him on” and demands an APOLOGY?

Yea, he does NOT “get it”—and he obviously DOES think he is a prize package…note how he tells her how much money he has made for his parents and defends his “job”—-but feel sorry for him? Nah, I will pass on that. I will however advise the young woman to be careful, this guy does sound like a “stalker.”

Did you guys remember that stalker guy in NY that was going to the women’s homes and taking photos outside them, and threatening them—and his “reason” was he wanted to get his on line “store” higher in Google’s ratings by the number of hits it had. DUH?????? He did get arrested though.

Whether this guy is Narcissistic, or aspergers, or delusional, like the guy who shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster, he is NOT NORMAL me thinks!

ps Maybe he is that guy that came here on LF a year or two ago that wanted our help with writing the letter to his GF that had dumped him and was NC with him….and eventually said it was because he wanted to CONTROL HER! DUH!

I don’t think asperger, if I’m not mistaken, they have a hard time reading people’s expressions, etc. and he talked like he was STUDYING them. Maybe, though, he was trying to make sense out of them.

I’m sorry, just creepy and yes NOT NORMAL

Must go, call from principal – Grand & another child got into lunch box altercation at school – Oh, Good!!!!! Glad he has a vinyl lunch box and other kid was ALSO guilty. Impulse control would be priceless, maybe I’ll ask Santa.

All I can say is that if a guy took me out, then suddenly stopped talking to me and wouldn’t respond to my calls or emails, I would be perplexed. I would understand that he didn’t like me, but I would still be perplexed as to what I had done wrong, because he seemed to like me enough to take me out the first time.

Even, “hey, I don’t think we’re that compatible, thanks for the nice dinner though.” or “I’d rather not date anymore. sorry.”
Would be better than just abandonment.

Furthermore, if he is a creep, it’s best to be nice so they don’t cut your throat. A narcissistic injury is best avoided with these types.

The last dude that came on to me, I had hired to work on my shop. When he came on to me at the shop, we were alone. Telling him that I had a BF didn’t phase him.

I just laughed and told him he was too young and studly and I’m too old for him and too boring. (18 years older than him). When we left we were both laughing about it, though he continued to flirt shamelessly.

I’m so glad I was nice because it turns out he’s a mixed martial arts guy who gets really violent in the ring. He doesn’t know that I know, but I saw him pummel a guy’s head viciously after he was down and he had to be pullled off. (This was a Youtube video that came up when I googled his name.) Just ONE hit would have killed me.

Being nice is a self-protective mechanism, and it comes naturally to me, I think, for that reason.

His letter totally creeped me out! Just like some of the missives I received from the spath I used to know. Soooo creepy. Abusers hate boundaries.

I wish I had gone NC when I got the first crazeeeee letter from the crazeeee spath. It was full of admonishments, and promises of possibility, and hurt, and condescension. It totallty made me feel awful. And I felt it was my responsibility to ‘make it nicer and have some adult closure’. So I responded, with kindness and explanations, and got bamboozled and confused and ended up in a 10-month relationshit with him. And this was after a dreadful first date, where he ignored me and criticized my dancing!

Sky, something to think about. Maybe you could, now, be nice to a spath and strong enough in your boundaries and values to fully reject any attempt to be lured into further relations. BUT, isn’t that JUST what they are good at? Making us go against our own feeling and intuition? And why put yourself at risk of being conned if you might already have emotional alarms going off? I think we have to trust our GUTS, our responses. I would guess this woman is following her gut.

He is baiting her to respond to him. Trying to get her to respond out of guilt and shame. It is total manipulation of her sense of obligation, decency, and kindness. Isn’t this classic abuse? He is already abusing her for not getting what he wants: closure, an explanation, another date, an apology, some communication. What!? His desires are so mixed, at first glance. But what I bet he really wants is an opportunity to make contact, so he can keep his con going. He doesn’t care what the contact is about, so long as he doesn’t let this fish off the line.

Being polite and explanatory when you are already creeped out (and SHE was on the ‘horrible date’) might not be the best response. I would wager the date went south pretty quickly. So once she got through the agony, she put up a strong boundary.

He sounds like a dumb psychopath. The one’s who give themselves away really fast. They’re out there. As long as they know the rules of emotional manipulation they can still succeed.

It would have saved me tons of money and time and humiliation if I had just not responded, and kept deleting until he went away.

Sky, you may feel obligated to respond to someone….but I don’t. Your post about “being nice” because you are afraid to give someone N-injury and provoke them to violence….but my idea of “being nice” and your idea of “being nice” I think are two different things.

I think the girl was being “Nice” when she didn’t respond to him and say “keep away you freaking creep”! Just not responding after multiple e mails and texts or voice mails is MORE THAN ENOUGH “RESPONSE” in my book to get it across to someone that you do not want to talk to them, that you did NOT have a good time, etc.

This man thinking that she OWED HIM AN APOLOGY????? For what? Not wanting to go out with him again? For “leading him on?”

This is the kind of guy, I think, that would blame the victim for wearing a short skirt when he raped her. He is TOTALLY Narcissistic….and even if she had replied to him, he would have wanted an “apology” and a fuller explination of what he did wrong, and on and on, he never would have been satisfried until he could controll her.

If they don’t understand NC they are essentially STALKING.

I think I see your points.

In my case, before learning about spaths, I was quite capable of turning down SOME people and letting them down easy.

BUT, because I didn’t KNOW about spaths, I was vulnerable in that a spath can use my niceness against me. And that is EXACTLY what happened and how I ended up with the uber spath from hell. Well, that’s not EXACTLY what happened, but there were elements of it. My “niceness” is seen as a weakness.

So normal people use boundaries to protect themselves and go NC when their guts tell them something is off. I’m not normal – obviously.

Now, however, I do think I can be nice and gain the upper hand on a spath that way. Simply because I can outmaneuver them. And I just prefer to be nice, it’s easier for me. Boundaries are hard work, they “feel” wrong to me.
I admit it, I’m a doormat.

Sky, boundaries were, hell ARE, difficult for me as well….because I was raised that having boundaries isn’t being “nice”—but I have since come to realize that BOUNDARIES ARE OKAY, I have a RIGHT to have boundaries, and I am NOT OBLIGED to let others walk all over me in order for me to “be nice.”

I was supposed to associate with Uncle Monster when he made me want to PUKE because if I didn’t, then it would “ruin” egg donor’s Christmas and she would cry and I would feel bad becuse I “ruined” HER Christmas. One time when she was in the middle of a BIG CRYING BAWLING Pity ploy about how I was ruining her Christmas because I wouldn’t have it with Uncle Monster, I had a “break through boundary” and I asked her WELL, WHAT ABOUT YOU RUINING **MY** CHRISTMAS?

She stopped SUDDENLY in the middle of this really GREAT bawling crying ploy and looked at me sooooo ANGRY! LOL ROTFLMAO

Nah, boundaries were not OK because if I had boundaries then I wouldn’t be in her control now would I?

Examining some of our “deeply held ideas” about what is OK and NOT OK is what we have to do in order to see if those things are things that we want to CONTINUE to believe.

Deep down there is good in every one. BOULDERDASH!

It takes two to fight! CRAP!!!

There are two (valid) sides to every story! BS!!!!!

Being Nice protects you! NOT TRUE!!!!

If you don’t make someone angry they won’t hurt you! POPPYCOCK!

If you make someone angry, it is your fault. ABSOLUTE MYTH!

You are responsible if I am not happy! LIE!!!!!

I am sure you can go on and on with the list of UN-truths that we have been trained to accept as truth and then to base our behavior and our boundaries (or lack of them) on.

As long as you hold UN-true ideas, you will act in accordance with them, and have cog-dis trying to reconcile them with reality.

Examining our basic set of “truths” on is a difficult and time consuming job, but it is worthwhile because we can then learn to set boundaries about what we are obligated to do and what we are NOT obligated to do.

Sometimes until something like this article or another one brings up a concept we don’t really stop to realize WHAT is making us continue to act in a way that is self defeating. That’s why I am still here at LF because I learn something new EVERY DAY!

your explanation clarified it for me, thanks. It makes sense now. I couldn’t understand why I should be rude to someone who has not hurt me YET. But your explanation, – and Milo’s too – is that if my GUT tells me set a boundary, then I should listen. That’s the part I didn’t get.

Oxy, thank you I do get it cognitively, but still working on honoring my feelings. I’m not so good at that. I was trained to honor OTHER people’s feelings and that mine are not that important. Actually not important at all. I was set up to believe that I was the least important. This belief is SO deeply ingrained in me that I can say it without even feeling bad about it. After all, I’m not important and my feelings don’t count.

I don’t want anyone to feel badly for me about this, it just is. It’s so much a part of me that it doesn’t even bother me. Cognitively, I understand that it’s crippling me and that I need to change, but I just don’t feel it.


Sometimes we have to take the ACTION FIRST and the feelings follow…so if you cognitively can get it, and then use the THINKING/LOGICAL part of your brain to act instead of letting the emotions drive the actions, the emotional “ah ha!” will follow.

Looking BACK at the setting the boundaries with my X-friend that I CAUGHT red handed stealing something from me that she could have had free as a gift if she had ASKED, but she was greedy, and she preferred to STEAL it. When I caught her I WAS DEVASTATED THAT I might hurt HER FEELINGS! ROTFLMAO **HER** feelings. How twisted is that. Plus she had stolen from me in the past and I had known it, even though I couldn’t have proven it in a court of “law”–I KNEW IT! No doubt!

I cried for 2-3 days over that one, and finally decided to LOCK things up. Which of course when she tried to steal again she would find the door LOCKED and know that I had figured out (seeing her for goodness sakes!) that she was a thief and I would no longer give her unlocked access to that stuff.


Okay, if this had been someone I didn’t consider a “friend” I wouldn’t have had a problem in the world with verbally attacking them on the spot when I caught them, but when I caught her, I WAS EMBARRASSED FOR HER, not upset she was stealing, but concerned with HER feelings.

Sky, I know wherefore you come from, sugar! I definitely KNOW. But I am LEARNING, I don’t have it “down pat” yet, but I am learning. LEARNING….to insist that those who deal with me do so with respect for MY feelings.

Remember that guy that I dated a time or two a seemingly nice widower, but then he wanted to take the airplane I had (since has been sold) for a joyride without any insurance and without it being current license etc.—and he just kept INSISTING HE WOULDN’T WRECK IT! But if he did it would have been MY PROBLEM in allowing him to fly it, my law suit, my handcuffs from the FAA….nooooo problem, he promised not to wreck it. LOL I decided then and there that I would not date him again, that he was IRRESPONSIBLE and I don’t need anyone who does illegal or irresponsible things in my life. I was not the least bit upset about disappointing him or hurting his feelings. Then, months and months later, AFTER HE HAD REMARRIED, he shows up at my door again! LOL Boy, did I call that one right the first time!

The thing is Sky, we ONLY have to worry about our feelings, and DO WHAT IS RIGHT, without worrying about “hurting someone else’s feelings”—if WE do what is right and call BS on others who do things that are WRONG–it doesn’t matter if their feelings are hurt because we call BS on it! THEY ARE THE ONES IN THE WRONG. That’s what boundaries are all about.

The female version of that first date stalker


I do believe I read something similar from a blogger… maybe it’s the same mail, not sure.

But yeah that guy is spathy to me, not asperger. That mail is full of blackmail and pressure to make her feel guilty and put the blame on her as well as entitlement. I can’t read any truly injury in it, just viciousness and rage.

Yes, it sucks when you go out on a date and hope the guy calls again and then doesn’t, even though he said he would. I might be upset about it for a day or two and nag about it on the phone to my best friend. But to actually tell a guy that? Well, I’ve mentioned it to a guy once… when I met him in person, actually when I was already with the ex-spath (whom he turned to go out with one night by chance meeting). I greeted him spontaneously, without any bad feeling, but at some point did amit that at the time I had hoped to hear from him again. His face was priceless: kinda embarrassed, surprised, and a bit of a “I hadn’t thought you would be interested.” It’s not “nice,” but not a biggie either. If it were a biggie, then something would be wrong with the person making such a scene over it: either it means being controlling or having a loopy fantasy.

Regarding “being nice,” I think I got out of many potential scrapes when I was younger and more attractive, with guys who would approach me (on the street) to hit on me. Mostly, I would smile politely and genuinely and say something like, “gee, you made my day! But I have a boyfriend…” and I’d wish them a nice day. This happened about 20 times, and each time they smiled back and wished me a nice day, too, and then LEFT ME ALONE. I saw no reason to be rude to them or to ignore them. And you know, sometimes they approached me in a very obvious way, “hey, you have beautiful eyes. You want to go somewhere with me?” and also each time I did feel that I would not be safe going anywhere with this person and I certainly didn’t want to date them. But I just tried to treat them as a fellow human, ignored the awkwardness of their approach, did not act offended by it, and the reactions I got from my “nice” response were positive, and I ended up feeling that the interaction had been positive and that I’d handled it well, and that maybe this guy just didn’t know how to approach women.

Now that I’m much older, men don’t hit on me anymore (a great relief!). But I do think that niceness works, provided it is done in a sort of “final” way or with that boundary firmly in place, to say a polite “no thank you” and then move on. There are a lot of things (and people) in this life that you end up saying “no” to, and I see no reason not to be courteous.

In the case of this Mike, yes he seems to be a spath for sure. If I had been Lauren, I might have said to him at the end of the date, “thank you for a nice evening.” and if he phoned me afterwards, I might have ignored the call because I didn’t want to talk to him, but later left a VM or text to say, “thanks, but I’m not interested.” and leave it at that.

Total NC drives some N-spaths crazy. I might be afraid it would spur stalking. I never liked it when guys did it to me.

It is true, though, that it is impossible to gauge how any action on my part might or might not cause me to be put in a more unsafe situation. But I do think that limited niceness/politeness has worked for me with most of these strangers or one-date guys who turn out later to be a mistake.

The fact that he googled her and found her email and her age and then inserted himself into her inbox was just way too personal and stalking. But I also wonder if my reaction to that is because I’m older and we didn’t used to be able to do such things (at least, not too easily as it is now, a click of the mouse away).

In the past when I dated, if the guy didn’t call, I kind of had a 2x rule. I’d wait awhile, try again, and if I made 2 attempts to get together and met with refusals or ignoring, then I’d totally stop and move on. It was hard, though, to be ignored (NC) when it had seemed to me that the date had gone well. It led me to think that maybe he wasn’t *really* blowing me off, and I didn’t want to misunderstand. Heck, maybe he was just busy or didn’t get my message. (it was always a short message, something like “I had a really nice time with you. Would you like to get together again?”

Thinking back now, though, I am realizing that NONE of my nice attempts to (stalk?) recontact a NC guy ever worked. Zero. So maybe I was being stalking or pushy. But it hurt and felt dismissive and rude/discourteous — and I did wish he could have been honest with me to say “it was nice, but I don’t think we have enough in common.” Something kind of innocuous. And yes, that did happen sometimes — that the guy would say, “you know, you are really nice but I just don’t feel that spark with you.” and I always appreciated that and would always let it go, then, feeling much more peaceful about it. I am nice, and I like it when people are nice to me.


In response to me, or others’, feeling bad for you. I don’t. I respect and admire you. I have learned tons from you sharing your thoughts, feelings, and processes.

Learning is a life long journey.

xo, Slim

The thing is I think that with Ns and Ps, even “being nice” won’t stop them…. yea, I know what you mean about guys hitting on me when I was young…but they weren’t I think stalkers or psychopaths, just guys trying to get the attention of a pretty young woman by whistling or making a nice comment, and I was not nasty back to them, unless the comment was VERY CRUDE OR RUDE. It depended on the context of the “pass”—if it was nasty, I might respond back with a haughty look and a snort, or a “drop dead,” but if it was cute or nice, I’d smile and say “thanks” and keep on walking.

This guy I don’t think would have taken “no, no thanks” as a FINAL answer, he intended to CONTROL. He may have been dense, but he GOT IT that she didn’t want to contact him, and DEMANDED that she APOLOGIZE for not responding. If the guy got to be a “high level banker” he couldn’t have been THAT SOCIALLY DENSE. He simply felt ENTITLED to her attention.

All the “niceness” in the world from her part I think wouldn’t have satisfied him. I think the fact that he kept on STALKING her… and the more I think about it, the more I think it was STALKING…shows me that his sense of ENTITLEMENT was through the roof.

Thanks Slim,
Your posts always add to my healing as well. Sharing our insights and perspectives is how we’re going to put this puzzle together and find meaning in what began as trauma. Without LF, I’d be so lost.

Sky ~ hope you are still hanging around because I’ve got one for you. This is how much your insights have helped the MiLo family.

Last evening I went to run some errands, hubby got a call from P/daughter. She was calling 2 hours before Grand’s first band recital (5th grade band) to say she would not be able to make it. I should add, no surprise there, she has NEVER gone to one function of his, not one and he is 11. This is also after she won visitation a year ago and SWORE to him she would NEVER disappoint him again. Again, no surprise.

Anyways, hubby met me in the garage, before I even had time to turn the car off going – I played the gray rock, I played the gray rock!!!! Another faithful follower born….

Milo, thanks for that vignette! it made my morning!

We need a link just for our spath jargon. The words we have come up with are so empowering in our daily lives. Each word makes it easier to stay sane in the crazy world.

Sky ~ if you knew hubby it would make it doubly funny!!! He almost always lets me take the calls from the P because he just can’t seem to keep his mouth shut, especially when it comes to hurting his “little buddy” (Grand). He was just so darn proud of himself.

You might also want to know he has shared the “gray rock” with everyone at the Sheriff’s department.

Milo, gray rock is DOUBLY good when you are required by law to communicate with them about the child. You don’t have the option of NC with her, and by being “boring” and NOT giving her a dose of DRAMA she is not FED, and we know that feeding TROLLS only makes them more powerful and stronger. Of course NC would be even better, but in cases where it is NOT AN OPTION, being boring is the next best things. NO DRAMA RAMA! How they do like to create drama!

Oxy ~ Do you remember those old Calgon commercials, Calgon take me away…. Maybe we should try and invent something to take the drama away. I’ll head up advertising!!

After hubby gray rocked her, she asked to speak with Grand, to explain to him why she could not come. Grand did not cut her ANY break, told her thanks a lot for nothing. (I could be wrong, but I think Grand really likes to give her a hard time and could have cared less if she showed up) After talking to Grand, she got hubby back and told him they WOULD come, because she didn’t want to hurt Grand. hahahahahahaha

Well you know the rest, they never showed up. Realizing her “Good Mommy Mask” had completely fallen off, she called when we got home, crying booohooobooohooo – car trouble, wouldn’t just know, poor babies. She asked if Grand was devastated – I said no, he hadn’t even mentioned it (which he hadn’t), he was more upset because one of the trumpet players blasted him directly in the ear with his trumpet.

The band was outstanding for only 3 months playing the instruments. Hubby and I are the lucky ones, we clap, we get to be proud, we get the lump in our throats. The hell with her.

Calgon – Drama Be Gone

that is so disgusting! When she couldn’t get any drama from you and hubby, she decided to feed on her child!!

She set him up with her promises, KNOWING she wasn’t going to come. Then she attempted to topple him from the pedestal, that she thought she was placing him on.

OMG! What an insidious way to feed on emotion. She still wants to torture you, but she figures that if she can’t directly torture you, she can do it by damaging her child, who will then provide the drama in your house by acting out his disappointment. That’s why she asked if Grand was devasted.

I’m floored. I know I shouldn’t be, but somehow I am.

Grand seems to be taking it well, I hope you are right that he is just manipulating her emotions right back. Backspathing at such an early age, though, concerns me. No child should have to be in that position.

How do you explain things to him? How do you put things in perspective for him? What words are there that can make sense of it for a child?

Sky ~ You better believe it is disgusting! That is what she has done to him all his life, and you are right she is doing it to torture us (actually more me than hubby).

The reason hubby let her talk to Grand was to let HER be the one to tell him she was not coming, rather than us. In that way he could take his “nasties” out on her. In the past, in particular when the court/gal crap was going on, he would become upset and take it out on us, physically, pushing shoving hitting.

I agree, backspathing concerns me also and NO child should have to be put in that position. We insisted upon NO contact for five years, then she took us back to court and the court ordered visitation, against the recommendation of a psychologist, therapist and behavior expert. They all agreed that IF he MUST have contact with her, he had to feel in control. So, if he doesn’t want to talk, he is not made to talk. If he doesn’t want to see her, he can tell her and she must obey his wishes.

How we explained this to him was to tell him that we had been very angry at her also, just like he was, for the way she had “disappointed” him. That we wanted to give her another chance (lie lie lie), BUT that we all had to accept her for who she was and that she did not understand keeping promises and probably never would. We also never tell him what day she is coming or what time she is coming. Because this was an event on a certain day and time there was nothing we could do. We have been telling him for weeks not to expect her to be there, but assured him that we could not wait to see him perform and we would be in the front row, as usual.

I hope I am right that he is just manipulating her right back, truly I am just not sure. I mean, your mom doesn’t give a shit and you know it, how must that feel to an 11 year old. The way it has been explained to me is that while she never really bonded with him, my hubby and I did from the time he was 2 months old, and that probably saved his “emotional life”. Except for the times she would take him from us to punish us, he has basically lived with us for almost all his life.

I honestly don’t think he would agree to see her at all but he LOVES her boyfriend who has been around since Grand was just over a year old. This guy is GOOD to him, always has been and we thank God for that. The times she would have Grand, he would call me and tell me to come and get him, that she was out of control or drunk out of her mind and he didn’t want Grand hurt. I know he sells drugs, has done time in prison, but he saved Grand more than once.

As far as Grand taking it well, the other night she called, he answered the phone and said “I’m not allowed to talk to strangers, here is my grandma.” then said to me “It’s another one of those people with something to sell” Try to keep a straight face with something like that. Then there was the time he said she must have been absent the day the taught how to be a good mother.

I don’t know what goes on in his little mind, I guess time will tell. I do know that letting him have control over this situation, and being a smart mouth about it is causing trouble in other areas. When the teacher asked him if he wanted to talk to the social worker about a problem he is having with another kid picking on him he replied, “I’d rather talk to a flying pig.” That was the note I got today. Then I have to make sure I am VERY vocal about that NOT being acceptable and there surely will be a punishment this weekend for that one.

It’s hard…. – bet you are sorry you asked LOL

MiLo, How on earth can you punish that kid for the “flying Pig” comment! LOL ROTFMAO????? OMG that is sooooo funny! What a great smart mouth the boy has! Great one line come backs! I loved the “I’m not allowed to talk to strangers….someone trying to sell something” GREAT JAB at her!

The kid is SMART and he IS GETTING IT….he sounds really great and emotionally educated for an 11 year old….that is wonderful!!! I think your therapy sessions and all your work is paying off, MiLo, paying off very well!

I think the letting HER tell him she is going to let him down again is a great way to handle it.

A friend of mine who is finally divorced from her P X husband of 25 years when he brings home the 3 youngest kids, he some how always has one of the little girls crying and not wanting out of the car, and my friend used to go out and drag her in kicking and screaming and now, she let’s HIM do that, she just stays inside until HE delivers the kids to the porch.

Good job, MiLo!!! (((hugs)))


I’d rather talk to a flying pig? He has a sense of humor. That’s a strength.

Does he have ADHD? If so, I hope you get him a IEP. He will get help all through his educational experience if you did that – and it’s a safety net if he misbehaves. Did that for my son, it saved him from getting expelled.

I’m not sure you should punish him about the pig thing. Be careful about punishment.

You’re the 1 thing he’s got going for him. Hugs to you.

Athena, Yes, ADHD and half a dozen other “disorders”. He has had an IEP since kindergarten. His involvement in the special needs classes is now down to just “a soft, quiet place, if he needs one.” Oh, and a social worker if he plans on talking to a flying pig.

One of my favorite expressions is “when pigs fly” – I think he may have been attempting to express that.

The punishment won’t be too much, but he isn’t having a very “quiet” week behavioral wise, so something is in order.


I have a hard time resisting a witty man!

My BF has a similar wit, he just can’t seem to stop. He told me he’s been punched in the mouth a few times. LOL!
So that may be a self-limiting problem…

You know it sounds to me that he has the potential to be a writer! He’s good with words and apparently insightful.

I checked out the Ben Glenn site. It’s good info.

MiLo, my parrot has a “smart mouth” too….wonder where he got it? LOL He still says a few words (some choice ones, too!) in my husband’s voice, and the funny thing is they are used in an APPROPRIATE way! Kids and parrots! Yep, they are a hoot!

My ex has a parrot. I taught her to say “hello strongawoman” …it took me about 6 months but it was worth it. She says it all the time. Hmmm must be drivin spath boy crazeeee when he’s “wooing” his new victims

Strongawoman!!!! Yea, Great!!!!! They do tend to say things that you might not want them too. Mine only has 2 dirty words, one in my husband’s voice and one in mine, but fortunately he doesn’t use them often and only when he is MAD! I think 2-3 times in 10 years, but always appropriately!

The things I’ve tried to get mine to say he rarely picks up, but picks up more of the sounds he hears that I don’t pay any attention to….he rings phones and then answers them with “Hello…(pause) then “Oh, Hi!” He calls dogs long dead and tells them they are a “good girl” he meows, and barks, makes hawk sounds and quail sounds and turkey sounds (birds that he hears outside his window) He makes computer sounds and microwave sounds, door bells, growls, a sound I think is a burp, and keeps us in stitches. I’ve been trying to get him to say apple or banana for 10 years and he’s never said it, D’s been trying to get him to say “I taste like chicken” but he’s never said either of those things though they’ve been said to him 2-3 times a day for a decade! LOL

Strongawoman ~ Good one ~ I wonder if that parrot is long gone by now. LOL

Oxy ~ my parrot story ~ My friend owned a pet shop, she hand raised her parrot since it hatched. It had a huge vocabulary and sounded JUST like her. She kept it in the store to entertain customers and hopefully teach the sale birds how to talk.

Her store was in a small strip mall and the store next door got a new tenant, a pottery store that also conducted classes. During their first evening class, they hear sounds coming from the store next door (pet store), people talking and laughing, then screams HELP – HELP – CALL THE COPS. They paniced and called the cops. When my friend arrived at her store it was surrounded by cops, weapons drawn and on the bull horn saying – “Come out with your hands up and no one gets hurt.”

You guessed it – it was “Annie” the parrot who by then was laughing hysterically. When my friend turned on the lights, the bird said “Oh shit, now what”. They do seem to know when the time is right.


Yea, mine says “Oh, sheet” in my voice and once when I woke it up at 2 or 3 a.m. by turning on the light. LOL I don’t say that often but appare4ntly they are like KIDS and once or twice of something you don’t want them to imitate they pick up immediately and the things you say every day WANTING them to learn, they NEVER do!!! LOL

That was funny! I bet even the cops and her neighbors had a good laugh about it after it was all over.

My doctor granddad’s last wife had a mina bird that talked and it really sounded like a human, it would say “come in” if someone knocked on the door and would say “Oh, doc, I’m soooo sick” and so on. They are nasty creatures though! My bird isn’t too bad, but I couldn’t do without him, he is too much a part of the family for 20+ years!

They are really a hoot, no pun intended. I have never owned one, but have “bird sat” a couple for my friends.

Another friend had an African Gray that also had a huge vocabulary when my friend adopted him. This bird was so bad his language was X-rated, with a Brooklyn accent no less. My friend’s cleaning lady was very religious and everytime the bird swore she said “Praise the Lord.” Now the bird swears up a blue streak, followed by – “Praise the Lord.” This one was also very nasty, would bite you everytime you opened the cage to feed or clean.

Milo, My bird is hand raised and is also an African Gray, but loves to be cuddled, but if you make him mad will bite in revenge. The first time I went on vacation for a while I had egg donor come over and feed him, when I got home I sucked up to him with his favorite foods (hot rice and hot mashed potatoes on a spoon!) Nope, he wasn’t satisfied til he had drawn blood once then he was back to liking to be cuddled. What a bird! They are sooooo smart. One researcher worked with an African Gray for 30+ years at a college and it could READ about 200 words, and do simple math and count. Not just “parrot” the words…

Another college has a border collie female that knows over 1,100 words (associated with toys) and will fetch the specific toy on the word being said. I’ve seen the video tape of that dog, amazing!

I am more disturbed by the comments than the letter. This letter, well, anyone who has wound up on LF has seen this crap before. I’d call this guy a spath, most likely.

BUT everyone down in the comments thinks he has ASPERGER’S!

I am both disturbed that the general public is so unaware of what looks to me like an obvious sociopath diagnosis candidate and also insulted that anyone would think an Aspie acts like this. Sure, we’re a bit clueless at times regarding social cues, but that guy is using blatant manipulation tactics. Not to mention, I’ve never heard of an Aspie acting like a creepy stalker! This guy is predatory. That is not an Asperger’s trait at all. Does anyone else think this guy just has a case of Asperger’s? Maybe I am totally clueless. Is this how an Aspie looks to the general public? To me, it’s not about social graces, but about intentions. An Aspie is a bit clueless and awkward, which can look even more obnoxious when they’re hurt or angry, but I don’t think they have bad intentions–at least none more sinister than the average person. A sociopath, on the other hand, is totally clueless, not quite as awkward, and has very bad intentions. Both conditions have the tendency to mask their true nature, but the true nature underneath is totally, COMPLETELY 100% opposite to one another. He seems to be masking what he assumes is very covert manipulation, dominance, control issues, a god-complex, and some misogyny.

Okay, as an Aspie, I am just pissed. I don’t want to write a comment on the thread in there. But I’m pissed. I also wish more people know about sociopaths. If they did, I think all those people would call him a spath. At least they all seemed to pick up that he is NOT NORMAL, which means their alarms are going off. That is good. Their instincts are telling them something is wrong, but they don’t know what it is.

Hey, wait, I think I just became a little more optimistic about all that. This means that the general public did a really good job of catching red flags. They just couldn’t assign them the correct name. Go team human (aka not-spath)! Now, let’s just get the word out so they can stop blaming Aspies for this nonsense!!!! We didn’t freaking do it!!!!

You might find this an interesting bird – the lyre bird


It mimicks every sound it hears from otehr birds but also other animals and even mechanical sounds, to impress a female with the most unique song…. he makes camera shutter souns, with zoom lens, and a chainsaw that cuts the trees of its endangered forests.

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