Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader “PressEject” has written several insightful Letters to Lovefraud about his involvements with sociopathic men. You can read them here:
Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 1)
Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 2)
Pulled in by the child in the sociopath
As a bisexual person, PressEject was most recently romantically involved with a woman who also turned out to be disordered. In this post, he compares the two experiences.
By PressEject
There was absolutely NOTHING in her emails that asked me to find with her (together) some kind of understanding or resolution. Instead it was like she was writing the script for everything, forgetting another person might have a view different than hers. I let her write it, I stepped back. I was not being asked for anything, so no hard feelings in not responding luckily (other than the overall regret and unease from falling into this sticky web.)
As someone with a bisexual past, I am now a person who has dated both a male S and a female S. I can tell you that their (non-gender reliant) destructive qualities and personality traits have some remarkable similarities:
1. They both got upset if they didn’t get what THEY want.
2. They both played “the victim” if something was held from them that they wanted.
3. They both tried to use guilt (or gaslighting) to make me do something they wanted.
4. They both had “back up” plans in case I “didn’t work out.” He kept his secret, I remembered his behavior and then asked her if she had a “back up plan” and (surprise!) she said as a matter of fact “yes!” (ouch!)
5. Both would become aggressively frustrated when their views were challenged. (I learned to challenge them the second time around!!)
6. Both “excelled at marketing themselves.” Both were fairly fearless in social settings.
7. I am the one who was blamed for any problems, not them. Could not be criticized.
8. Both were capable of very SHORT-TERM regret. (deceptive practice that I was able to keep my guard up against the second time around.)
9. Lack of real empathy, some amount of fake or obvious empathy that could be gained by them when it was explained to them but not forthcoming if left to their own devices (which was most of the time!)
10. Neither showed any sense of guilt when exposed for their hurtful insensitivity or selfishness.
11. Mixed signals… running from very hot (passionate sexually) to complete cold, left in the dust, see you later.
12. There was an eery void “behind the mask,” both revealed what I consider to be unconscious deficits of self-esteem. In time, these were revealed (his were more hidden but could be characterized by a “shy, humble” view of himself contrary to his predatory conquests, hers came out in logically chaotic emails when she wasn’t getting something from me). Oddly, they would spew this out from time to time but neither seemed to be aware of how it caused them to act, so in this sense it seems like an unconscious awareness they always carry.
13. Both were impulsive in the moment, decisions were made quickly almost randomly.
14. Both broke off the relationship suddenly and without warning!
15. Both would from time to time obsess over something they had no power over that caused them stress.
16. Neither seemed concerned if I was ever hungry or thirsty. If they were, then I might be also.
17. When any kind of problem was presented to them it was met with a quarrelsome and defensive posture, neither were willing to work productively to solve a problem with me together. Since they didn’t see anything as broken, there was nothing offered to fix it.
18. Both showed a need to control conversations and social settings. Both often relied on an “outgoing” and “larger than life” personality to achieve this.
19. No real or deep thought-out values. During my second experience, I attempted to find out what was behind multiple opinions (often self righteous opinions held against others) and why these were formed. I found very little under that shell. Instead, to avoid any real thought effort, the questions might be easily turned around and handed back to me.
20. Both would announce, not discuss, both would tell, not ask.
21. Both eventually would reveal they were on the lookout for something “better” and not wanting to settle.
22. Both regard relationships as interchangeable. If I don’t meet their needs, someone else will.
23. Both expressed that they often felt misunderstood. (I wonder why!)
24. Both could at times easily discuss THEIR feelings but never mine.
25. A pervasive sense of humor they both shared was found at other people’s misfortunes.
26. Both gave me odd little presents at the beginning. I believe these to be impulsive purchases, not much real thought went into them it felt like.
27. The lavish flattery… I was to star in a pin-up calendar, I was the smartest guy ever, so accomplished, the best they had ever had!! (uh, how many have you had!!??)
28. Both indifferent about core qualities of healthy relationships: real love, caring, commitment, loyalty.
I started that list last week as I tried to gain my sanity back… It helped!! Perhaps it would be helpful to share with others.
I am still in “relationship recovery” it seems. I learned about three and half years ago I have a blind spot for this kind of behavior. The Lovefraud site helped change my life! I have a developing awareness now that I have a weakness (or blind spot) that I am working on in mistakenly letting relationships propel quickly past emotional involvement right into physical intimacy. With the “S” this can happen easily I now know.
I will be working harder to be careful, to value myself more and not act as impulsively as these predators. I will also pray. I sense that I have suffered with low self-esteem for a long time in my life, luckily, I have a tool to help me out of this. It is love. I know it has to be love and less fear running my life. Love from inside me to build me up, to help me express this in healthy ways. I am determined now more than ever to keep on this path. I will feel less empty and I will keep growing.
Thanks Presseject for that comprehensive list. Yes, my brother’s wife fits most of those descriptions! Below are some of my personal observations.
They use others to get their dirty job done for them and look like innocent bystanders. For example if she wants to exclude me from going to my niece’s birthday party, she would tell me I am welcome anytime, but will get my brother to tell me not to come.
We need to carefully listen when they brag about something. It is always when they modify innocent people’s behavior to fit their selfish needs or just for pure sadistic fun. They brag when their psychiatric manipulation is successful.
They take away what is rightfully yours, when they give it back to you temporarily or damaged, they expect high praise/gratitude.
They distract you, so you are not focusing on what you should be…fooling you again.
They have no boundaries, to get what they want they will do anything disgusting or demeaning. They have no self respect, no value for dignity or self, but very egocentric, they are always right. They are driving, take the wrong turn, “the signs are bad”, “your fault you distracted me”
I present to you my sister in law: She often leaves a pile of smelly trash(food,banana peels, etc) in the living room. My brother told her not to do that, she argued that he should pick it up for her, that’s how it is with busy working women/moms, he is lucky because some other women leave trash piles in every room. She told him he could buy himself some gloves and a mask, because she is reasonable and wants to help out. Then my mother complained of the odor in the living room, she told my brother to get her an air freshener and tell her to stay in her room. So she would still continue to throw her trash in the living room, but WOW they can have gloves and air freshener! Generous and kind indeed! My brother is ecstatic and does as he is told,(he is now grateful does not question this behavior); My mom is upset does not buy into this, but stays in her room until my brother is home to clean the living room. So she will not alter that behavior, but she thinks she is pretty nice. Well as long as there are these vulnerable people to fool & enablers around, they will FOOL & PREY!
One more thing I have learned. We all have arguments & disagreements with our loved ones. Sometimes we are wrong, sometimes it is their fault. But with Sociopaths, they are always WRONG, it is always their FAULT, there is NO two sides to the story!!!
This site has made me learn a lot, made me smarter. Thanks everyone!
Caring aunt,
Ive used that phrase already. My daughter has just said “but mum, there’s always two sides to every story”
Guess what I replied? Er, no there isn’t my luvly. When it comes to ex spath there definitely isnt a side. There’s a version of the “truth”…..a lie
Thanks for that choice phrase friend.
Dear Caring Aunt,
I think you see through the “plots and plans” of your SIL and the enabling behavior of your brother and mother. I am assuming your mother lives with them.
My guess is that your brother learned his enabling behavior from your mother and that is one reason he is behaving this way. It is not likely that he will change, it is TOTALLY not gonna happen that your SIL is going to change, and the poor child is caught in the middle between two grind stones, her mother’s abusive behavior and her father’s enabling.
I was reading Zoey’s post – (Zoey, hello, and welcome).
I remember telling my spath he hurt me so much that I felt like “he sucked me completely dry” and that “I had nothing more to give” and that I “wanted to die”.
He ignored my comments.
Ignored them.
Who does that?
Who makes somebody feel that way
Who doesn’t apologize
Who ignores it?
Ugh.
Athena
Someone who doesn’t give a shiat, that’s who. My ex used to have a saying….” You’re confusing me with someone who gives a shiat!”
I thought nah hes joking.
He wasn’t was he.
Athena, have a big hug …..what a Â¥$€#,!!!!!
Right back at you, Strongawoman. 🙂
Hey strong woman, yeah we are all learning about these people, they share a lot of similarities, the lessons we learn from them are similar.
Hi Joyce, yes, I am able to see through SIL’s plots and plans, and that is the very reason she hates me, and to top it off, her daughter loves me very much!!!
Oh you are so right about the enabling behavior, my brother must have learned that from our mom. Yes, she lives with them. I have always wondered how he is so weak, easily manipulated, and we are from the same parents and shared a similar upbringing. I will admit that I was fooled and hurt by SIL also, but something was “not right” with her, and I know better now…
Has anyone seen the latest information on Melissa Rivers? She and long time boyfriend – Jason Zimmerman have broken up – the reason – he was involved with an adult pornographic website. Same thing happened to me with my ex – I would go to work and he would be surfing (in MY HOME) the adult website for encounters (he had his own profile with pictures TAKEN IN MY HOME – he had the **** to tell me my house was nicer for the pictures)….
It took me time to get over this – however, I am stronger and wiser after this.
Hi Ox,
Joyce, there is another thing I need your opinion on! My SIL is teaching her kid to lie to me, be hostile with me, etc. The funny thing is all I have to do is wait it out for an hour or so. After my niece has obeyed all of her mother’s instructions to annoy me, she goes back to being my loving niece again. My niece truly does not feel any hostility towards me, she is just fulfilling her duty to her mom. Still, that one hour is very hard to endure, someone you love so much acting out to provoke me!!! I am thinking of talking to my SIL after the holidays…What do you think?