Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader “PressEject” has written several insightful Letters to Lovefraud about his involvements with sociopathic men. You can read them here:
Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 1)
Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 2)
Pulled in by the child in the sociopath
As a bisexual person, PressEject was most recently romantically involved with a woman who also turned out to be disordered. In this post, he compares the two experiences.
By PressEject
There was absolutely NOTHING in her emails that asked me to find with her (together) some kind of understanding or resolution. Instead it was like she was writing the script for everything, forgetting another person might have a view different than hers. I let her write it, I stepped back. I was not being asked for anything, so no hard feelings in not responding luckily (other than the overall regret and unease from falling into this sticky web.)
As someone with a bisexual past, I am now a person who has dated both a male S and a female S. I can tell you that their (non-gender reliant) destructive qualities and personality traits have some remarkable similarities:
1. They both got upset if they didn’t get what THEY want.
2. They both played “the victim” if something was held from them that they wanted.
3. They both tried to use guilt (or gaslighting) to make me do something they wanted.
4. They both had “back up” plans in case I “didn’t work out.” He kept his secret, I remembered his behavior and then asked her if she had a “back up plan” and (surprise!) she said as a matter of fact “yes!” (ouch!)
5. Both would become aggressively frustrated when their views were challenged. (I learned to challenge them the second time around!!)
6. Both “excelled at marketing themselves.” Both were fairly fearless in social settings.
7. I am the one who was blamed for any problems, not them. Could not be criticized.
8. Both were capable of very SHORT-TERM regret. (deceptive practice that I was able to keep my guard up against the second time around.)
9. Lack of real empathy, some amount of fake or obvious empathy that could be gained by them when it was explained to them but not forthcoming if left to their own devices (which was most of the time!)
10. Neither showed any sense of guilt when exposed for their hurtful insensitivity or selfishness.
11. Mixed signals… running from very hot (passionate sexually) to complete cold, left in the dust, see you later.
12. There was an eery void “behind the mask,” both revealed what I consider to be unconscious deficits of self-esteem. In time, these were revealed (his were more hidden but could be characterized by a “shy, humble” view of himself contrary to his predatory conquests, hers came out in logically chaotic emails when she wasn’t getting something from me). Oddly, they would spew this out from time to time but neither seemed to be aware of how it caused them to act, so in this sense it seems like an unconscious awareness they always carry.
13. Both were impulsive in the moment, decisions were made quickly almost randomly.
14. Both broke off the relationship suddenly and without warning!
15. Both would from time to time obsess over something they had no power over that caused them stress.
16. Neither seemed concerned if I was ever hungry or thirsty. If they were, then I might be also.
17. When any kind of problem was presented to them it was met with a quarrelsome and defensive posture, neither were willing to work productively to solve a problem with me together. Since they didn’t see anything as broken, there was nothing offered to fix it.
18. Both showed a need to control conversations and social settings. Both often relied on an “outgoing” and “larger than life” personality to achieve this.
19. No real or deep thought-out values. During my second experience, I attempted to find out what was behind multiple opinions (often self righteous opinions held against others) and why these were formed. I found very little under that shell. Instead, to avoid any real thought effort, the questions might be easily turned around and handed back to me.
20. Both would announce, not discuss, both would tell, not ask.
21. Both eventually would reveal they were on the lookout for something “better” and not wanting to settle.
22. Both regard relationships as interchangeable. If I don’t meet their needs, someone else will.
23. Both expressed that they often felt misunderstood. (I wonder why!)
24. Both could at times easily discuss THEIR feelings but never mine.
25. A pervasive sense of humor they both shared was found at other people’s misfortunes.
26. Both gave me odd little presents at the beginning. I believe these to be impulsive purchases, not much real thought went into them it felt like.
27. The lavish flattery… I was to star in a pin-up calendar, I was the smartest guy ever, so accomplished, the best they had ever had!! (uh, how many have you had!!??)
28. Both indifferent about core qualities of healthy relationships: real love, caring, commitment, loyalty.
I started that list last week as I tried to gain my sanity back… It helped!! Perhaps it would be helpful to share with others.
I am still in “relationship recovery” it seems. I learned about three and half years ago I have a blind spot for this kind of behavior. The Lovefraud site helped change my life! I have a developing awareness now that I have a weakness (or blind spot) that I am working on in mistakenly letting relationships propel quickly past emotional involvement right into physical intimacy. With the “S” this can happen easily I now know.
I will be working harder to be careful, to value myself more and not act as impulsively as these predators. I will also pray. I sense that I have suffered with low self-esteem for a long time in my life, luckily, I have a tool to help me out of this. It is love. I know it has to be love and less fear running my life. Love from inside me to build me up, to help me express this in healthy ways. I am determined now more than ever to keep on this path. I will feel less empty and I will keep growing.
Good deal, press eject,
I like sex as much as any one (even us old coots don’t enjoy sex if we enjoyed it as youngsters!) LOL but at the same time, I am not interested in sexual intimacy with someone I am not in a relationship with…to me, sexual intimacy is reserved as a “bonding ritual between two people who care about each other”….not to say anything about the DANGERS of sexual intimacy with a partner who is sleeping with others.
Recently a friend of mine (a man) ended up getting a non-life threatening but ugly STD and I was discussing this with him, at his request, trying to educate him….and I suggested that he should use a condom at least…and he said “Oh, I don’t like them, and I only have sex with someone I know well enough to not have to use one.” I laughed and said (given the conversation we were having about his STD) AND HOW IS THAT WORKING FOR YOU?
I also said, I would not have sex with anyone under ANY circumstances until we both had an ALL CLEAR STD check by the health department and he said “but what if the other person said NO, they wouldn’t get a check?” and I said “then I would NOT consider sleeping with them.” He just did not understand my reasoning!@....... DUH!!!!!????!!!!
You know this man is not an idiot, and we have been close friends since childhood, but he has NO CLUE, even after my “educational seminar” on STDs for him because what I said to him is NOT WHAT HE WANTED TO HEAR….and I imagine that he will continue his sexual practices unchanged after his treatment.
Casual sex with untested partners, even using a condom is playing Russian Roulette with diseases that can cause death and/or disability, I’m just not interested in playing that game when there are WAY TOO MANY “Bullets” in the guns.
ps Do you know what they call people who use condoms for birth control? PARENTS LOL ROTFLMAO
Know the difference between Herpes and true love? Herpes is forever!
Milo, the more I think about it, yes, the way you describe this it does seem to apply to the female S. I encountered. Out of nowhere came these grudges, often masking (thinly) her insecurities almost like a paranoia that she used to trash our relationship, not once thinking how offending these opinions could be. Running hot and cold, it was enough to make my heart pound sometimes! (fortunately I recognized this much quicker this time around.) The male S. did this too but was more secretive about it in some ways, but again, back then I hadn’t thought to really question motivations. I do now!!
presseject ~ i will do this all in lower case, maybe it will slip by, because i know i will get slammed for this, but – i think women, in general, are more vindictive than men.
don’t tell anyone i just said that
MiLo, what makes you think you will get slammed! LOL Actually, I think either sex can be vindictive depending on the circumstances. Saying one sex or the other is the “most” vindictive is like saying “Johnny is a soldier, Johnny is 6 ft tall, therefore all soldiers are male and 6 ft tall.”
I think it depends on the individual and even those of us who have encountered more than one psychopath or psychopaths of both sexes can’t really GENERALIZE enough too come to a real good conclusion.
I do think that females are usually less “diagnosed” as P and more often diagnosed as “borderline PD” and I am not sure that BPD and PPD are not “mostly the same critter” with a different name, though more people with BPD do seem to “self harm” (cut themselves etc).
Just like a great Dane and a beagle are both still DOGS…look a bit different and a bit of different disposition, but still DOGS.
I just knew it Oxy – sorry. I wasn’t talking about spaths, I was talking about us fairly normal women.
Who do you think came up with “I don’t get mad, I get even.” I betcha a beef cow it was a woman.
Ever notice at a party or function, all the men are talking about sports, work, politics while most of the women are talking about whoever couldn’t attend.
I spent several years working in an office with only men. Then I went to a place with mostly women – talk about drama, I thought I’d lose my mind.
Ofcourse, I am half way joking here and I don’t like to Generalize, but still I think there is some validity in my statement.
Love MiLo (please don’t hold a grudge over this – LOL)
Grrrrr! Of course I will hold a grudge,. how DARE you disagree with me! LOL ROTFLMAO 🙂 But I tell you I have known some “catty” men too….and I agree with you there are some catty women, but the nit picking they do I don’t think is nearly as destructive as the revenge men take. The superficial nit picking drama rama type stuff that most (in my opinion) women engage in I don’t even ….welllllll….come to think of it, turns out one of THE nastiest, meanest most vindictive evil biatches I know personally is a female psychopath….and she absolutely “ruinated” financially and emotionally her last husband who adored her. He was only her 4th or 5th husband and she has “broken up” several marriages I can name, plus and plus and plus….I think she is on the order, plus some, of your daughter and my son combined! She was also married to a psychopath who killed another man while having an affair with the guy’s wife, and he ended up getting off, though he did spend a year in our local jail til the trial…but no doubt in anyone’s mind that he DID the crime…even the jury. Problem is here in this county if you’re on a jury and vote to convict certain members of certain families and you are not allowed to wear a sack over your head, your house is likely to burn or you are likely to be run off the road where it turns near a cliff….we do have some stuff like that goes on here in this county with some really bad arse folks. Kind of like “Deliverance” though I hate to say it.
I think I have to admit that I am just ever so slightly, in a loving way ofcourse, vindictive.
If hubby makes me mad, I remain silent. Then for the next week I feed him diet food. hahahahaha That will show the old guy.
I remember the time we traded our traditional roles, on a dare ofcourse. He hung his pants out on the clothes line, touching the ground IMAGINE. I accidentally ran over them with the lawn tractor.
Oxy ~ you have “Deliveance” – I have Amish beard cutting
Milo, Oxy, it is interesting to compare the behaviors of the S’s or N’s we have encountered. Since learning of these disorders, I have spent countless hours reading, reflecting and learning all in an effort to understand better. The list I sent to Lovefraud, posted above helps me to see more clearly the remarkable similarities I encountered with both the male and female S’s, not so much the differences or individual quirks.
The list above applies to both the individuals I encountered and I see each equally in the descriptions. It has helped me to detach from their behavior, to recognize it is the same kind of abuse, if in fact I choose to endure such craziness. My heart was essentially broken in the same way by both individuals from assuming there was love there and eventually seeing the void when the mask fell off.
In reflecting even further (back to a time I have worked hard to let go and forget) I see that the male S. was extremely cruel in his responses during the D&D, in ways that made my head spin. So to answer MiLo’s question better, I still think what I first wrote applies:
[ If there is NO empathy for our views and needs, this is simply NOT a healthy person to be near, no matter what sex they are and how disordered they are. ]
People should know the dangers of these individuals, and I would assume any could be capable of horrendous crimes and not just of the heart. I feel extremely lucky to have this new awareness now with both men and women with this disorder as I am sure both will fall in front of my path again from time to time. With God’s help, I will not have to endure the damage they can cause, knowing better to quickly extract myself from their predatory gaze before anything like this ever happens again.
PressEject
Milo, LOL Yea, the Amish beard cutting was funny to me, but actually I think it is pretty twisted! I think they charged them with hate crimes or something along that line pretty serious. Guess they will have to cut their beards off in prison…I don’t think most prisons allow long hair or beards.
Most of the Amish I know are pretty cool folks, but I guess there is “one” (or two) in every crowd!
My husband and I were kind of like that (in a funny way) and he drove faster than I liked or was comfortable with. I was NEVER afraid with him in a plane, he was all business, but in a vehicle on the road he was terrible! So I refused to ride with him for 3 months, and when people would question why we drove in separate vehicles for a 70 mile trip to a friend’s wedding, I would say loudly enough for everyone to hear (my voice carries like a fog horn!) “Because he drives too fast and I will not risk my life riding with him any more.”
It took about 3 months but he agreed to slow down because he knew I would not give up. I AM STUBBORN!!!! LOL