Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader “PressEject” has written several insightful Letters to Lovefraud about his involvements with sociopathic men. You can read them here:
Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 1)
Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 2)
Pulled in by the child in the sociopath
As a bisexual person, PressEject was most recently romantically involved with a woman who also turned out to be disordered. In this post, he compares the two experiences.
By PressEject
There was absolutely NOTHING in her emails that asked me to find with her (together) some kind of understanding or resolution. Instead it was like she was writing the script for everything, forgetting another person might have a view different than hers. I let her write it, I stepped back. I was not being asked for anything, so no hard feelings in not responding luckily (other than the overall regret and unease from falling into this sticky web.)
As someone with a bisexual past, I am now a person who has dated both a male S and a female S. I can tell you that their (non-gender reliant) destructive qualities and personality traits have some remarkable similarities:
1. They both got upset if they didn’t get what THEY want.
2. They both played “the victim” if something was held from them that they wanted.
3. They both tried to use guilt (or gaslighting) to make me do something they wanted.
4. They both had “back up” plans in case I “didn’t work out.” He kept his secret, I remembered his behavior and then asked her if she had a “back up plan” and (surprise!) she said as a matter of fact “yes!” (ouch!)
5. Both would become aggressively frustrated when their views were challenged. (I learned to challenge them the second time around!!)
6. Both “excelled at marketing themselves.” Both were fairly fearless in social settings.
7. I am the one who was blamed for any problems, not them. Could not be criticized.
8. Both were capable of very SHORT-TERM regret. (deceptive practice that I was able to keep my guard up against the second time around.)
9. Lack of real empathy, some amount of fake or obvious empathy that could be gained by them when it was explained to them but not forthcoming if left to their own devices (which was most of the time!)
10. Neither showed any sense of guilt when exposed for their hurtful insensitivity or selfishness.
11. Mixed signals… running from very hot (passionate sexually) to complete cold, left in the dust, see you later.
12. There was an eery void “behind the mask,” both revealed what I consider to be unconscious deficits of self-esteem. In time, these were revealed (his were more hidden but could be characterized by a “shy, humble” view of himself contrary to his predatory conquests, hers came out in logically chaotic emails when she wasn’t getting something from me). Oddly, they would spew this out from time to time but neither seemed to be aware of how it caused them to act, so in this sense it seems like an unconscious awareness they always carry.
13. Both were impulsive in the moment, decisions were made quickly almost randomly.
14. Both broke off the relationship suddenly and without warning!
15. Both would from time to time obsess over something they had no power over that caused them stress.
16. Neither seemed concerned if I was ever hungry or thirsty. If they were, then I might be also.
17. When any kind of problem was presented to them it was met with a quarrelsome and defensive posture, neither were willing to work productively to solve a problem with me together. Since they didn’t see anything as broken, there was nothing offered to fix it.
18. Both showed a need to control conversations and social settings. Both often relied on an “outgoing” and “larger than life” personality to achieve this.
19. No real or deep thought-out values. During my second experience, I attempted to find out what was behind multiple opinions (often self righteous opinions held against others) and why these were formed. I found very little under that shell. Instead, to avoid any real thought effort, the questions might be easily turned around and handed back to me.
20. Both would announce, not discuss, both would tell, not ask.
21. Both eventually would reveal they were on the lookout for something “better” and not wanting to settle.
22. Both regard relationships as interchangeable. If I don’t meet their needs, someone else will.
23. Both expressed that they often felt misunderstood. (I wonder why!)
24. Both could at times easily discuss THEIR feelings but never mine.
25. A pervasive sense of humor they both shared was found at other people’s misfortunes.
26. Both gave me odd little presents at the beginning. I believe these to be impulsive purchases, not much real thought went into them it felt like.
27. The lavish flattery… I was to star in a pin-up calendar, I was the smartest guy ever, so accomplished, the best they had ever had!! (uh, how many have you had!!??)
28. Both indifferent about core qualities of healthy relationships: real love, caring, commitment, loyalty.
I started that list last week as I tried to gain my sanity back… It helped!! Perhaps it would be helpful to share with others.
I am still in “relationship recovery” it seems. I learned about three and half years ago I have a blind spot for this kind of behavior. The Lovefraud site helped change my life! I have a developing awareness now that I have a weakness (or blind spot) that I am working on in mistakenly letting relationships propel quickly past emotional involvement right into physical intimacy. With the “S” this can happen easily I now know.
I will be working harder to be careful, to value myself more and not act as impulsively as these predators. I will also pray. I sense that I have suffered with low self-esteem for a long time in my life, luckily, I have a tool to help me out of this. It is love. I know it has to be love and less fear running my life. Love from inside me to build me up, to help me express this in healthy ways. I am determined now more than ever to keep on this path. I will feel less empty and I will keep growing.
given my experience with a female spath and what i have heard on lf (and perhaps my ex boss) i don’t see any difference between the men and women spaths. my female spath has some health issues that may make it harder for her to carry out certain physical acts (like sleeping with everything that moves if it fits into her con), but she does it in every other way she can.
i am not doiing well. I was lucky enough to have a shiats treatment yeaterday – and it’s been about 3 years – and i can feel how much more my body has deteriorated in that time. And today i am back at work wondering when it will disappear, and having absolutely no enthusiasm for it.
i did get out and about on the weekend, but i am in so much physical pain, it wasn’t much fun. one of the events i had been looking forward to for weeks – but i just wasn’t well enough. the other was a business colleague’s work xmas party. well, that was so not fun. there was a young woman at the table who was so gleeful about having just fired 12 people. oh, is that the 12 fires of xmas.
anyway, my body really fucking hurts. i got an eye infection when mom was last in the hospital and the drops have made it worse. yesterday she went back in —– i can’t go. i just can’t. i am hanging on by my fingernails emotionally, as it is.
i am not who i used to be, i don’t have the physical or emo resources. i just want to go back to bed. my whole body is aching. guess i will go take some pain killers so i can function today. i know i am depressed. best remedy for that for me is eat well, spend time with good people and exercise. i did some stretching this am – ow ow ow. people are a no go – too tired.
i am freaking out seeing poverty come my way again.
i am watching my thoughts and they so need to change. i know i can’t ‘fight’ depression, but the way i feel about people has become so negative, and i am working on my internal self talk. i know it will help.
i wanna hide. i feel overwhelmed.
((One))
You are right not to go see your mom for now. You have to nurture yourself first. At least wait until your eye heals.
The stress you are under is bound to undermine your immune system. A hospital teeming with infectious organisms might be the last place on your list of places to go. You are no help to your mom if you are sick too.
Have you tried Bach flower remedies? I’m not sure if they are helpful or not, because when I took them, I was still being poisoned by the spath…but maybe they can help you with your emotions.
Remember too that how your body feels is going to affect your mood. It contributes immensely to your self talk. Be gentle with it.
Hey, I just remembed a poem my friend Matt gave me 27 years ago. It was on a poster he gave me.
It might help:
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
Aussiegirl,
My P/daughter subscribes to the same two facebook pages and she too was reported to Child Protective for abuse.
Birds of a feather …………
Sky – thank you – my heart was open to most of the poem.
one of my mom’s neighbour’s called me this morning after i posted. she is very concerned about mom’s care also. I called the hospital and was told by the nurse that i couldn’t have any info about my mom because i wasn’t her power of attorney.WTF? i suggested that hadn’t been enacted yet. so she went and looked and there was no sheet in her chart. she asked about getting info from dad and i said, no that wouldn’t be possible. then she told me as i wasn’t her ’emergency contact’ she couldn’t give it to me.
i have called the hospital social workers, and will wait for a call.
i am trying not to be blown offside by this. the thought of emailing him and ASKING for my name to SPECIFICALLY be put on the list wold put me in WAY too much contact with him.
i called mom’s neighbour back – she too is an ex nurse in that hospital and she may be able to help.
sigh.
Alex –
“she is or was always steps ahead of me…”
This will change over time. I’ve been missing from LF for sometime, so I don’t know how far out from the relationship you are or how long you have been NC, but believe me, you will get to a point where you will be anticipating their next scam, rather than reacting to it with damage control.
The further out you get, the clearer and easier your thinking becomes because it’s no longer being smoke-screened. The clearer your thinking becomes, the more accurately (and calmly) you will be able to anitcipate and block (or use to collect evidence, or use to your own advantage) their spathy behaviour.
Once you have their measure and you are back in reasonably good shape yourself, they are open books and simple to read. Their “cleverness” is a very base, primitive and unholy kind of cleverness; ours comes from a pure and honest place, so in the end, we will always prevail. Take heart and be patient – it will come to you.
“my spath will get xmas dinner on a tray through a door”
I’d like to think that this will also be true of mine, but don’t be disappointed if it takes longer than the Yuletide season. The wheels of justice, I have noticed, are interminably slow to turn – and never more so than at this time of year where the police and the courts are under-staffed and in the go-slow holiday mood.
It will come, in time, but just don’t hang your hat on it yet. x
MiLo –
“My P/daughter subscribes to the same two facebook pages and she too was reported to Child Protective for abuse.”
I am both gob-smacked and unsurprised. Doesn’t that apparent contradiction just REEK of spathiness?!?!?!?!?!?!
one/joy_step_at_a_time –
Once upon a time, about 18 months or so ago, I offered you my direct email address and you told me I would be subject to the usual “screening process” over time, which was fair enough. I am wondering today whether or not I have passed muster? 🙂
aussiegirl
the law enforcement i am patient with its the only way i got this far, unless theres a dead body there in no hurry lol, lucky for me the cyber dept is fairly new here and is very aggresive to make a name for themselves, they have promised me something by end of week in the way of felony charges keep fingers crossed.
and as far as collecting evidence etc, i have slowed down and started putting things together, texts emails financial records video, the same officer who is in charge of the cyber crimes division is helping me in his free time to compile everything i need, it so happens he experienced the same thing and never told anyone was to emberassed, so i have had some great pieces fall into place as of late, and i am lucky cause she has been getting more and more deceitful she is trying the pity right now i paid all the bills last month ( i know i learned) and she went crying to her sister again that she needed money, whats funny is they are on to her now with her money pity!
Alex –
They cannot maintain the impression they are managing – they eventually come unstuck. Luckily, this usually coincides with the time that WE start to get our own act together.
Call it kismet or universal justice or whatever – if we are patient and we watch and learn and listen and wait, then we will overcome them; in time.
I have recently through attending a support group come to the realisation that the spath sister who from my earliest childhood memories, tortured me physically and emotionally, was the Programmer who made me susceptible to the spath men I married later in life.
I predic ted to my children that when my last parent passed away, I would have no more contact with her or my other sibling who she trained to lie for her (to back up her lies about me) and to beat me up for her.
Just as I predicted, she stripped away most of the inheritance left for me by my parents, before my father died.
The day she got control of my father’s affairs after my mother died, she texted her husband of 10 years, who is a fifo (fly in fly out miner) that he was no longer welcome at her home.
He arrived at the Perth airport expecting her to pick him up for the 3 hour drive to their home, only to get a cold text message.
Despite investing over $1 million into developing her farm property,she kicked him out with no more than the clothes on his back and then tried to strip him of a parcel of land he owned.
Her legal and slander attacks were phenomenal and now my ex bro in law has to work for another 10 years before he will be out of debt and able to retire.
I told him I could have warned him, but I doubt he ever would have believed me until she actually exposed her true self to him.
She used my brother to help back up her lies to the Administration Tribunal when I tried to get an audit done of her handling of my parents estate.
She had been syphoning money off from the estate ever since my mother died.
My father had been co-erced to sign papers allowing her and my bro to manage his estate and my mothers estate.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars were missappropriated and used for her personal benefit.
To cover her tracks she claimed during her divorce that money removed from my fathers estate to renovate her farmhouse was money her husband had borrowed from my father.
This meant that her already impoverished husband, had to “repay” the almost $100,000 back to the estate.
Then he had to pay almost $100,000 to save his small land holding from her rapacious greed as she tried to take that off him in the Family Court.
She threatened him that he would “get nothing” and even went as far as to remove his sheep, gates, internal fencing and stored construction steel from his property while he was away at the mines, all the while spreading slander about her ex husband in the small country town where they live.
It took him another 6 years before he could afford to build a modest home on his land.
When he began building his little home, she falsely reported him to the authorities claiming he was in breach of various building codes, as a means of hindering him.
I had to share a bedroom with her for 18 years of my childhood and it was hell.
My first memories are of myself as a baby unable to talk, being jabbed with nappy pins each time my mother turned her back on me.
My sister would pinch my skin so it hurt, pull my hair, dig her nails into me, and jab me with the nappy pins.
As I grew older she would break things and then cry and claim I had done the deed.
When my brother was born she hated him also and tried to get him blamed for breaking toys etc, but he was too young to have done the damage, so my parents knew it was not him and he was spared punishment.
My sister hated my mother but was fixated on her imagined “ownership” of our father.
When my mother was seriously ill at one time, she said to me “I hate her, I hope she dies”.
She was not even in 7th grade at school but somewhere middway through Primary school when she fervently expressed this ongoing hatred of our mother who was a loving parent.
Because my brother was doted on by our mother, my sister went out of her way to groom him to be her willing follower.
She taught him to despise our mother.
She encouraged him to beat me and torment me evertime our parents went out shopping once a week and left us to do our chores while they were gone.
WQhen our parents returned, she would cry and beg them to not be angry with her because she has tried so hard to get me to do my weekly chores but I would not, and she had not had time to complete her chores because she was trying to get me to do mine.
Obviously when I was being pursued around the house with a big carving knife, terrified for my life, trying to hide so they could not find me, I could not do the chores required.
Why didnt I tell my parents?
I knew from experience that she would cry and my brother would cry, and they would both lie and make my honest report appear to be a blatant lie, and I would get the strap on my butt for being such a liar.
I grew up feeling I could not speak and be believed.
I grew up feeling I had no voice to defend myself.
My first husband was charming socially, just like my sister, but behind closed doors once we were married he turned out to be a cruel tyrant, both physically and worse, verbally/emotionally.
He was a gifted sadist, who knew how to say just the right thing to make me feel like I was the lowest of low and deserved all the pain he inflicted on me.
He guilt tripped me for almost 10 years till I grew strong enough to finally break away and stay away.
He played me so well with his emotional torture and lies that he even made me believe my own parents did not love me and were ashamed of me.
Because of that I retreated to my room and nearly wiped myself out in the depths of despair, by taking every tablet I could find.
I was so relieved 36 hours later to recover and find I was still alive.
Now I avoid letting anyone EVER reduce me to such a despairing state through verbal abuse.
Life is worth living even if it hurts a lot while recovering from the damage a spath has done to me.
Zoey,
I’m sorry you had to endure such a childhood, and that this woman followed you into adulthood as well. I’m glad you eventually escaped, and glad for your BIL even though she did work her evil on him as well.
The psychopaths do spread their greed around!
Thanks for sharing your story!
Zoey –
How long have you been here at LF? I’ve been missing for a while, sorry, not up to date with evryone new-ish yet.