By | April 3, 2011 44 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: None of us stood a chance if I didn’t get out

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following email from a reader who we’ll call “Laurel.” She married Frank as a teenager and had five children with him. Her oldest, Amy, is 19 in the story and married to Matt. Her son, Andy, is 14. Names have been changed.

I knew I was leaving.

I had been plotting for months, since my first few tastes of TRUE freedom and being around normal people, that I was getting myself and my children out. I had been saving and accumulating paperwork, solid proof of income for months. Keeping it safe and duplicating everything.

One morning I walked into Frank’s bedroom to give him his coffee and do whatever bidding he had in mind on his IPad, when it occurred to me, mathematically almost, that I just didn’t really have anything to gain by waiting any longer. If what I had didn’t work, why wait any longer? Throw it where it needed to go and leave. If it wasn’t enough, deal with it and go on.

Just a tiny bit of fear was left.

I was flying to STL the next day, I had that pre-planned, supposedly I had a dr appt and had to bring back Amy’s car. It was snowed in from the last run.


I got into STL ALONE for the first time in my adult life for 4 blessed days. Imagine, sleeping ALONE, traveling ALONE, just sitting in a room ALONE.


Then I spent the night with my old friend from Jr HS. I went not knowing what would happen, and what a night it was. To an outsider it wouldn’t have appeared to be much; to me, it was life changing. We laid on a his couch almost watching a terrible movie, then went to his bed and watched some more movies, and slept like 10 yr olds holding hands. Nothing more. We hugged goodbye the next morning, smiled and I drove the 40 miles back to my place.

I guess it showed me yet AGAIN how I had been lied to, there ARE good people still in existence, not just waiting to pounce, and I didn’t think about the monster once that night. I wasn’t afraid anymore. I didn’t look over my shoulder mentally all night. I will always remember that drive home, that morning.

The song “Crazier” by Taylor Swift was on and I felt like I was walking on air.

I wasn’t in love, nothing to that effect, but I was different. I felt freer somehow, transformed. I don’t think my friend will ever know or appreciate what that night did for me, one day I hope to thank him and let him know. In any event, I send him my most powerful loving happy wishes. He did me a great service that night. Somehow I think it did something for him as well. Neither of us knew where that was going, but it wasn’t what we thought ”¦ and I mean that in a very positive way.

I got back down South 2 days later. It was horrific. Worse than ever.

Frank was a living nightmare, worse than ever. The minute I walked in the door he had me making a list of things he needed done the next day, ridiculous requests of getting dump trucks licensed and his business license, getting fake insurance papers made up and oh yeah get his BP emergency claim handled THAT DAY. Sure Frank, I’m on it.

Two days later my son Andy told me he was to the point (due to Frank’s constant degrading remarks and harassment) that he didn’t want to wake up in the morning.

New friends

At this time Bob, his new racecar friend from Ohio, flew in with his wife, Andrea. Them being normal, nice family people, Frank put on his game family face. The kids were astonished and making fun of him. Andy just shook his head. Frank would brag on him in front of his guests, then turn around after they left and say things like, “Why don’t you just stay home with the women where you belong tomorrow?!”

Bob and Andrea did pretty well at reading him and we still talk. While they were there and his family guy act was on, which was quite nauseating to watch, and armed with my knowledge of psychopaths in my mind, made watching the transformation of his persona really freaky. I could have enjoyed them, but even with them there, he was a ticking time bomb.

On their final night, I figured Bob and Andrea were tired of the going out to eat every night thing and invited them to our place for dinner. They seemed to enjoy the kids and just hanging in the kitchen while I cooked, and sadly the kids liked them and enjoyed the company of “outsiders” paying attention and playing with them. Andy barely spoke, and I kept pretty quiet because by this time, when I would interject something into the conversation, I was weighing my words, twice Frank had already told me via gypsy language to shut up. I was treading on thin ice if I mentioned certain subjects. I don’t even remember what they were now.

Once I was gone, Bob texted me, having no clue, and I told him, then I emailed his wife via FB and told her. I’ve come to see that making people aware, bringing things long kept secret out in the open, is important. Plus this man is someone Frank is going to use and he needs to be aware what he is dealing with.

I was pleasantly surprised when I got their replies. Both were super supportive, and offered me shelter in their home if I needed it. You see, they genuinely love their family and she came from an abusive father. Again, another lie of Frank’s blown out of the water.

Tension in the air

Two days after they left all hell broke loose. Amy was at my place, her and her little husband, Matt. It was like they could sense the extreme tension in the air, Frank HAD been performing and very viscous for about a week, so they were staying at my place.

It was strange; everyone kind of hovered. I’m not sure if they were afraid for me or him, by this time I know I really could have, well, killed him, and wouldn’t have given consequences a thought. My mind was very close to snapping. All those years of being told lies about myself and the world around me were crumbling down and I was furious.

Over the past few months, before going back down South, I had been seeing in a friend capacity a few attorneys that, ironically, I met thru Frank when he was in legal trouble, and still is. They were fun, impressive and smart, and shock of all shocks, they thought I was too. I kept in touch with them on a daily basis, and when in STL met up with them for drinks during the day, went to a few cool places, and was amazed by it all. There went another lie.

So ”¦ a few days after the guests leave, Frank comes out of his room. Andy and Matt were getting ready to leave for work, and he begins to browbeat Andy, the kid had such a look of defeat on him that I just came unglued. I jumped up and screamed, “Back the fuck off! You’ve got my child suicidal with all your constant putdowns! NO MORE!” Andy ran out the door away from it, Amy and Matt stood still taking it in.

He then proceeded to tell me I was making Andy an idiot just like Amy, not letting him chastise Andy just like I did with her. This was said with her standing RIGHT there! I replied, “I think she’s great and I’m not sorry I didn’t let you misuse her and abuse her the way you do others.” It was the ONE thing I got right.


Things just progressively got worse that day, but as soon as he went back in his room I began to pack and ship out my things and the kids. Not easy under his watchful eye, but possible. Off and on all through the day he would come back in and start again, screaming at me to, “Go ahead, you know everything so show him how to work! All all of you are is dead weight.”

Again, said in the kids’ presence. And again, I went ballistic. I screamed in his face that he was the only dead weight in that house. Matt stood by me, God love him, sure that Frank was about to attack. Strangely enough, he didn’t, not physically. I’m still not sure why, normally for such a display I would have at a minimum got a few slaps, possible a body slam.

I left to go to the office and take care of a few things there. When I got back he was walking out the door and wanted a ton of tacky lawn furniture he bought all moved to the porch. He was screaming at Amy to get outside and move it! I jumped out of the car screaming at him, “What the hell do you think your doing?!!!!!” Amy was standing there not sure what to do. I told her she had no business picking up all that heavy stuff and to carry her ass right back inside. He went wild, began screaming what an idiot I had made her, I said, “No, to the contrary, she’s not going to go through all I did. I will not allow you to cause her the trouble you did for me.”

I said that if he wanted that shit moved so bad, (btw the hired men were 10 min away and easily could have done this), then he’d have to get off his dead ass and help me do it. When we picked up the swing he couldn’t hold up his end, kept stumbling, dropping it, so I threw my end down and told him to do it his fucking self. I wasn’t doing shit. Again, surprised he didn’t hit me. He did scream and curse at me for awhile, but I just ignored him and went inside.

By this time I was absolutely livid. Amy kept saying, OMG he’s lost it finally. She was crying because of the ugly words he said. How I hated him for that. Again, I told her he was a liar, afraid only of losing his control over his kingdom and he could sense it coming. Try not to personalize it, KNOW it for what it was. The ramblings of an imbecilic psychopath.

That evening, as I was preparing dinner, he started AGAIN about Andy. Andy wasn’t there thankfully; he was in his room, Amy was though, and she witnessed the whole exchange. As he was eating, I had ignored him with virtually no response, by this time I didn’t trust my own response, he says, “So Andy wants to kill himself huh?” I didn’t answer. So he said it AGAIN, much louder. Matt and Amy ran into the room, afraid it was going to get really bad. He THEN said, “Well throw him a fucking rope then.”

I came unhinged. I went flying at him, got stopped, I screamed at him that the only person that was going to die was HIM if one hair on my child’s head was hurt. I told him I would kill him with my bare hands. He replied that I didn’t scare him, to which I said, “You should be, your dead body would be the best thing I could see.”

After that he sat back down to continue eating, and out of the blue turns around and says, “Frankly I don’t care, I don’t give a damn.”

I said, “You know what? I believe you.”

Driving away

That’s the last coherent situation I recall having. The next day was spent getting our clothes shipped out, tying up my loose ends. It was hard, I was afraid, but I was more afraid of staying. I knew none of us, worst of all my children, didn’t stand a chance if I didn’t get out. And if I stayed and something happened to Andy it would be on me. MY fault. That would be unforgivable.

SO the next morning I loaded them up and we left. The getting out was the hard part, I was so overwhelmed with fear, mental fear, it ALMOST locked me down, but if I felt myself being crippled by it, all I had to do was pull out the words he said about my son, his own flesh and blood and that’s all the fuel I needed.

Once I got on the road driving I felt a tiny bit of relief, but not until I reached Interstate 55 north did I start to feel really better. And once I hit Memphis and saw the signs reading STL I was completely just relieved.


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Ox Drover


Thanks for your story, and welcome to LoveFraud.

After living in chaos for 20+ years “peace” won’t come easily or quickly, but it will come with time and work.

Since your kids have lived (I am assuming) in this chaos for their entire lives, and lived in fear and abuse both mentally and physically I suggest that you see if you can arrange some family and individual counseling for your children, especially your son who “doesn’t want to get up” in the morning. It is difficult enough to be a teenager and for him to have experienced this abuse from his father probably his whole life, he needs to be able to realize this is NOT his problem but the problem of “Frank.”

Knowledge gives us power so learning about them, and learning about how “normal” folks process and interact gives us the power to transform our lives from DRAMA and CHAOS into peaceful and functional lives. Free of the rage at the abuse and free of that fight or flight syndrome of adrenaline rushes where we become as volatile as they are, as dangerous as they are.

Anger at injustice is righteous and good, it provokes us to take action to stop the injustice, but becoming so enraged that we even want to kill them, throws us into the same cesspool that they swim in. It isn’t a healthy way to live. Believe me I’ve been there and I’m glad I have passed through that phase now. You will too, but it does take time. Now that you are out of the situation, safe and away from him. Take time to get yourself in a calm and peaceful place, help your kids recover and grow and get the best “revenge” by having a good life….free of rage, free of drama, free of unhealthy and violent anger, and FILLED WITH PEACE and LOVE. God bless.


Welcome Laurel – welcome. Eventually we reach the point of NO MORE. Like a lioness protecting her cubs we will literally fight to the death if our kids are threatened.

We are by nature positive. Negativity is the result of faulty thinking. You can change if you want to. You can’t control other people, situation or circumstances, but you can control what is going on inside you.

It takes time to change and transform those old patterns of thinking. Good luck 🙂

Hope to heal

Hello and welcome Laurel! Thank you for sharing your story.

I am so glad that you and your kids are out of there safely!! Blessings to all of you.

The journey to healing has begun.

raggedy ann

Your account was so upsetting and stressful to read, especially on the heels of the post about the missing young woman in Florida.
I am glad you have all gotten away, and I hope you will all hold onto each other and be strong.

btw, I think that it is possible that a name-replacement was missed in the letter. If so, hopefully it can be fixed soon.


First I want to report that I am truly happy. I spend most days now at peace just because I dont have to look at, hear, or feel him anymore. The not contact thing really does work. When I read this part of my journal that I had sent Donna it was almost like reading a fiction book, hard to believe its only been about 8 weeks since I got out of there, (after several failed attempts over the years), and also because I FEEL so different now. I dont even hate him anymore. I feel nothing about him at all now that I have come to acceptance that he is NOTHING. He is a shell, a human imposter. Nothing more, nothing less. Im aware he still poses a threat on more than one level, he has TONS of money, no conscience, and is likely to hit the rage stage at warp speed when he attempts to see me. Im fortunate for now that he is on probation for assault in Mo, his attorneys did a marvelous job of getting assault 1 felony down to assault 3 misdemeanor. Hes not above hiring someone to have something done, but no matter what Im not there. Hes dead to me now..
And @ Raggedyann- Donna did change the names. Nothing to fix. No mistakes.
And for the record, I dont frequently use those profanities. I did on those days though. Normally for me daring to speak out to him like that or even use that language would have been enough to get me severely punished. Oh well, it was what it was, and thank GOD its so diffferent now.


one more thing,
My oldest daughter that is mentioned here, Amy, unfortantely stayed down there. She married into “the family’ as is their they arent in Utah. She is struggling internally already, even though the boy she married isnt cruel to her< he is still very different than I am. So that story remains untold. My other children are doing very well, the human mind and its capacity to restore itself after horrific events, if left alone, is amazing. There are some days when my son feels anxious, but for the most part hes doing great. He has read the sociopath next door and is now onto another one. I find that more important that therapy {I did that for YEARS with my oldest daughter Amy, worthless if the therapist isnt educated on psychopaths}, we talk about psychopaths alot so that we are aware. I make sure to constantly tell him you cant please a psychopath, that its all about control, and the truth is that his dad knew he was too smart and loving to be controlled forever, which is why he began to verbally attack him, and he gets it..hes such a smart kid. very intuitive.

Ox Drover

Dear Laurel,

I’m glad that you are feeling better and safer…not sure what you mean about “the family as is their custom” and I hope that your daughter Amy will be able to reconcile her home life as a child with her life now and that her husband will not be abusive to her.

While therapy for Amy might not have been a “huge success” and while I do agree that learning about psychopaths is very important, I wish you would reconsider therapy for your son who was so depressed he “didn’t want to get up”—there ARE some therapists who DO get it about psychopaths.

When we start to heal from the abuse of a psychopath, it starts out learning about them, but in the end becomes learning about ourselves. Why we put up with the abuse for so long, but your son had no choice, he was a child…he grew up in it. Please, just think about it for his sake. God bless.

Hope to heal

Dear Laurel – Very glad to hear that you are truly happy and away from the P.

I do feel that Oxy makes a very good suggestion with regard to therapy for your son. Even if it’s only for a short time, it could be very helpful to him. Being a teenager is difficult enough without having to deal with the aftermath of living with a P. I too, encourage you to reconsider. God bless.


I recomend that my mother put the rest of this story up, starting from beginning. I think it would help others see the full talent of a psychopath and how it destroys people…there children, ME “AMY” and how I will never probably know what it is like to control a life of my own and have a normal since of thinking, because all my life someone has done that for me and at some points almost destroyed me.
I am 19, I am 12 weeks pregnant, and do to my weekend state of mind have been married twice.
The first time was due to me trying to get out of my lifestyle with a psychopath, I only knew him for a little less than two weeks, and surprise he was no different than my father. He was abbusive mentally and psychally. Now I am married to my husband now, I love him very deeply. I have for 4 years, however, when we argue occasionally it takes it’s tole on my mind and I think of my father and how he did me, and the rest of my family…


You go girl. Get your life back and enjoy it now. God bless.


I am still not free of him. My husband and I are having to live with him because we don’t have enough money to buy our own place. And the beast won’t help unless my husband and I kiss his ass for a while till he can save up enough money from working with him to buy us a home.
Even then though, I fear I will never be free of the beast, even in my mid it will always be there, his voice, the words of defeat…. Gnawing and my mind like a rabid animal..


AMY 1991 is the daughter. I, Laurel, want to express that this is the child who was in therapy from age 5. YES, she is fully aware of what her dad is. Yes, she is still experiening the matrix because her husband is so caught up in the web, the money, the empty promises of more. When never, EVER, will you reach the golden ring. The absolute hardest choice I ever had to make was to leave this child, someone Ive never been away from longer than a week since her birth, down there. My heart breaks for her, but I believe that she, armed with the knowledge she has, will find her way back home. And with that true happiness and peace that comes from within. She deserves it, she is beautiful, inside and out. We can learn from this, be better people, we all deserve this chance. I love you B. Come on home.

Ox Drover

Dear Amy1991,

Welcome to Love fraud….I’m sorry that you are living with your abusive father. It is tough being preg at your age even with a stable and happy home.

While you may think you “have” to live with your father until you have enough money to buy a home, you do NOT have to live with him….you and your husband can find another place to live where the two of you can be together away from him. Think about it and discuss it with your husband, let him know how unhappy you are and that you do not want to live with your father any more.

Laurel, Amy is a “big girl” now and though she’s had some problems with growing up in a household with a lot of violence and chaos, she must make her own decisions now. She must see that she has to make the decision to stay there or to leave, and make the choices and take the consequences that go along with it. As much as you love her, you can’t rescue her….help her, but she must rescue herself….that’s the hardest part of being a parent to an adult child I’ve been there and it is much harder I think than when they are little and you can do everything for them and “make it all better”—when they are adults they must make decisions for themselves. (((hugs)))) to you both and God bless.


I’m so glad that your mother wrote to me, and so glad that you are aware of what your father is.

I’d like to repeat what Ox Drover said – the healthiest thing you can do for yourself, your husband and your baby is to get out of that house. Nothing good can come of staying there. In fact, my guess is that your father will come up with a way to make it impossible to save enough money to buy a house, just to maintain control over you, so you might as well get out and rent somewhere. Millions of young couples rent, saving up until they can buy a home. You can do it.

The only way to really heal is to get out of their grip – as your mother has found. Follow her example.

Best wishes,



You are so young. Please make your own life, separate from your father. Rent an apartment, a house, etc., something that could be an actual home for you, your husband, and your child. As an adult, you deserve to live your life on your terms. It is scary to make this change, but you and your husband can do it, finding that it might be a WELCOME change for the two of you. Go for it. Peace.

lesson learned


I hope this helps……

I was involved with a P/S/N as my first boyfriend at 15. He found another victim, devastating me, and so I leeched onto another psychopath. Fun. I was nineteen at the time, and also pregnant with my first child. I married the P. I lived with what I consider to be my “foster” parents (they’re good people) for the duration of the pregnancy while my husband was in the ARMY in basic training. My daughter was born prematurely, due to a very unusual uterine (turned body wide) infection. I also think that happened due to the stress of having contact with my lovely full blown psychopathic father all of my life, but also the stress of dealing with he and his machinations while I was pregnant, and living just six blocks away. When my exPhubby came home, we lived with my father and his wife for a few months. What an absolute total nightmare. My exP hubby had returned from the army, but didn’t have a job yet. Even HE being a P himself, could not stand my father….I stayed there because I believed we had no where else to go. Well, that’s not really true. We stayed there because my father offered and we didn’t bother to ask anyone else. I thought he’d be on his best behavior given that my child was still in the hospital (would be for four and a half months) but actually, it was worse. I was the scapegoat. It was just another reason for him to torture me to elevate himself and my spathy sister. I wish I had known about psychopathy then the way I know it now. You’re in a great place to make changes in your life, however dire they need to be, because you know what you’re dealing with.

I can’t stress to you enough, how unhealthy this is for you, not only on an emotional level with pregnancy hormones a raging, as well as your young age, but WORSENED to what could be catastrophic levels to you physically and to your unborn child. Living with someone like this, particularly a parent who has damaged you so much, is toxic to your unborn child with the ongoing dynamics. You could become sick. And so could your child.

If your hubby has a good job, get out of there.

Do it for your unborn child, as well as for yourself and cut this man out of your life. Get the healing you need. And do it for your child too. You know what it is to live in such extreme toxicity. You don’t deserve that.

Your child doesn’t deserve that. Born or unborn.

Wishing you the best.


Denise Guiney

Laurel, insane is it not that they not only treat step children incredible badly but do not care for their own children. They do not care at all, children are just a concept to be used. Once I overheard X telling a veteran that his son was on a secret mission in Afghanistan. He was doing it just to get this old bloke to go up to the bar and get him another drink as he was too drunk to do so himself.


WOW! What a story, and one that sits with me like no ones business. Ive not been on here for a while as Ive been trying to ‘sort’ things out in my own mind. I have some things to say…

Lots of what you’ve written resonates with me…so I will write from my own spot today…it may look more like free association, as that is about how my mind wants to ‘think’ today…bare with me, please 🙂

*driving home from the gym after HE forgot to leave his keys and phone with kid, i told him to take a cab home if it was so impt that he give the keys/phone. I didnt forget them and I had to work. take a fucking cab home to get to your 11 year old if its THAT impt to you. NO? really? YES? why? because it would be an inconvenience for him to have to do that and i was supposed to put myself aside again, YET FUCKING again, to make up for his mistake. I was pissed.
I couldnt though, cause i had to teach. so, he could ‘wait’ that long so i could drive him home but i was INCONSIDERATE to him because i suggested he take a cab home. I didnt care about his son, an 11 year old, because i wanted to stay and do MY OWN workout…I WASNT IRRESPONSIBLE! He could have taken a cab if it was THAT impt. It wasnt…it was a game.
*and he asked me what time I wanted to leave to go to michigan. i said 2pm. he yelled at me! “2pm?” Yeah, asshole..2pm. Oh, I thought we’d leave at noon…then why in the HELL did you ask me what time I wanted to leave? Set up.
*i couldnt even look at him at this point. I wanted to wash my floor before we left. he sat in the bedroom and talked to his mom. i was being ‘difficult’ at this point…HE wanted to leave. so, we left. after my floors were washed and i got ready. I COULDNT EVEN LOOK AT HIM…I WAS SEETHING WITH ANGER.
*he says he wants to have a ‘good weekend’ with me. NOW? yeah, now. hes got an image to portray and he KNEW i didnt pretend very well.
*still, MY feelings are not addressed. lets just smooth things over to make it look good in front of mom and aunt…that would have been best for HIM. never mind the fact that I COULDNT EVEN LOOK AT HIM!
*at moms suddenly, there’s something wrong with me and he doesnt know what the problem is. ive just been really crabby all day…FUCK YOU.
*my feelings are STILL not acknowledged.
*that night i say i want to go home. if i could have crawled in a hole in the back yard and died i would have. he says ‘no’. if i want to go home, he will drive me to the bus station and i can get home that way. I AM ON FIRE…we need to talk
*we have a talk in the living room and im sobbing. he tells me if i make them leave that will be the last time we talk. he tries to appease me with an apology. i didnt mean to hurt your feelings. oh, ok…now I feel better…THANKS AHOLE! i can tell his insincerity and the more he fakes it the more pissed i get…i tell him IM SO MAD AT YOU RIGHT NOW, I FEEL LIKE I COULD PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE!

Yae for me! but wait…now IM ABUSIVE?

Why is this so hard for him to get?


I sometimes wonder what exactly he either tells people about us…me in particular.
He has left EVERY SINGLE TIME…Ive not gone anywhere…yet somehow I can hear him tell the storys as though I just LOSE my mind randomly…

I know though that anyone who hears MY story…and particularly people who have seen it themselves…say the same thing…RUN……RUN………….RUN…………and when he tries to come back…RUN FASTER…

What do others see in this situation that I have a hard time seeing myself? Some days Im right there with them…other days not so much.


oh this one is so obvious: it was a set up to make everyone think you are a bitch.

He pushed your buttons to make you miserable and crazy. Then he takes you to mom’s house. It was a pre-emptive strike (a term my spath loved to use) so that later, when he slandered you in front of his relatives, he would have evidence. Standard spath tactics.

Nothing he said had anything to do with his real motives. The floors, the time, impressing his mom, -all were distractions to keep you off focus, provide him with entertainment/drama and not allow you to see the spath behind the mask. In the end, all he really wanted was to take you down a peg in other peoples’ eyes and consequently, in your own eyes.


robxsykobabe – Not sure if you know about the ‘head in the washing machine’? This is how spath gets into your head into ‘fast spin’.

They fill our heads with such rubbish to confuse us and keep us off balance.

Turn off the power, shut him down. Stop the cycle, open the door and breathe.

lesson learned


I love how you have the tactics down to a science. You have no idea how much that has helped me to untie the knots of my own ex relationshit. It’s amazing.


lesson learned


I think that’s signs that the fog is lifting a bit.

Which is a good thing, but it doesn’t mean you won’t be damned angry the more you are able to see, the further away you get. I have found myself enraged or encased in grief in things that I believed to be truthful or completely innocent only to find out they are NOT at all.

Sky really helped me in that when a conversation or flashback happens to allow it to come and pass and then ask myself questions about it. Boy does that WORK when viewed from an “observers” perspective. not everytime though, but more often than not now.

Hang in there Babe!


Skylar and Candy:
WOooooooWWWWOoooowwwWWW!! I never even caught on!!!

Im sorta sick to my stomache at this point because its TRUE! In the end, his ‘goal’ was just that…take me down a peg in his NEWLY FOUND families opinions by in essence provoking me. His ULTIMATE goal? To get out of the relationship. He didnt have a good enough ‘reason’ so he set this up. He set the WHOLE thing up…and it began right BEFORE he moved in!
Rather than ‘backing off’ and showing empathy/compassion/regard, he upped the anty until I had reached my breaking point. As I reached that point and ‘went off the deep end’, he had ‘evidence’ of how ‘crazy, nuts, troubled, difficult” I really am…and his family saw it FIRST HAND!
I WAS SET UP…and his newly found family knows minimal about me. He was the KING of ‘splitting’ and keeping people at bay with each other. He needed to be in the middle of any relationship that could form between me and anyone else (adoptive mom, baby momma, friend at work). Those are his SUPPORTS…and if they have information from ME than they are less likely to believe all he has to say. WOW!!!
What this comes down to is control.

He said it in therapy after I confronted him about him leaving the LAST time…by PROVOKING a fight over whether or not I ‘accused’ him of stealing a book…”why cant you see that I was trying to get out”…

OMG!!! He also confabulated versions of stories that DID happen to fit HIS agenda…ex: saying he told his son I said I would be taking his son to the city as a reward for good grades. Then telling his son I ‘backed out” because I didnt want to spend the money. In reality what happened was WE were going to the city as a reward for his sons good grades but HE had no money to go up there with. We were deciding whether or not to go then because I was NOT going to pay the entire way. HE TOLD HIS SON THIS TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD…why? BECAUSE HE WANTED OUT and had NO legitamite reason…



Hence, the emails about comcast that placed HIM in such a stand up guy light…and made ME look like Ive done something horrendously wrong!

Feeling kinda sick right now…so, whats my next move? Or do I even need to worry about having a ‘next move’? Just trying to anticipate him trying to contact me again. I mean, will he? And for what reason if he does?

He hasnt tried in about 3 weeks, however, before than, he tried 5 times and I didnt respond AT ALL…not one ounce.

lesson learned


You don’t want him too. Why in the world would you even want him too?

If he does, it’s for the very same reason that was given to you by sky. To irritate you, to set you up. That’s all. There is no fantasy of he may want you blah blah blah, only to IRRITATE you. I’m so glad I’m off my ex’s radar now I can’t even tell you. I FEAR him contacting me and I don’t ask myself WHY anymore because I KNOW why. It would be to HURT ME. That’s who they are, that’s what they do.

I”m glad you’re not responding. That’s what you want NOT to do. That’s what you want, is for him to GO COMPLETELY AWAY and understand that if he contacts you again, IT IS TO HURT YOU PERIOD! TO PROVOKE YOU TO REACTION. Maybe he’s not trying anymore because you’ve gray rocked him and now you’re no fun for him. GOOD. that’s exactly what ya want!



He could sabotage the relationship and make it seem like he just tried and tried but I was SOOO difficult…

translations of some things he said…
“I havent felt connected to you”=Im starting to not really like being in this relationship bause Im getting sorta bored.
“Im not attracted to, interested in or feeling you”= I gotta say something to make myself believable to myself and others. You’re not attractive because you eat OLIVES OUT OF A JAR, youre not interesting because you HAVE A ROUTINE FOR LIFE, and Im not feeling you because IM BORED BECAUSE I NEED TO BE ENTERTAINED ALL DAY LONG
“Im sorry it had to be this way”= I had no other reason to get out of the relationship so I had to really make you look bad…sorry
“Ever wonder why even your mom sees these problems in you too”= I need someone else to back my up here because I dont know how to handle someone who doesnt do what I tell them to


Leson Learned:

Oh, please, please, PLEASE dont misunderstand my statement 🙂 I do NOT want him to contact me…I am empowered right now…
IIIIIII havent responded to him-at all!
I just have a ‘feeling’ this is not done with him…however, after todays conversation on here, I feel as though I DO see the motivations better…

I WILL BE prepared if he ever contacts me again…

lesson learned


Well, as the saying goes around here TOWANDA GIRL!


I’m so glad you feel empowered. It’s good to see you around. You have great humor too, babe.


lesson learned


That is EXACTLY what they do. Exactly.

Their provocation + our reaction = WE are crazy.

They create the drama. So glad to be out of that mess!!



Thank you for REALIZING 🙂 my god damn given gift!! I AM FUNNY! 🙂 Just kidding…thank you though!

SOOOOO interesting as I ‘reflect’ on the drama that Ive encountered. Believe you me…I can do bad all on my own! Its been intersting though to see how much of my own self I ‘forgot about’ or ‘didnt attend to’ while beign with him…AGAIN!

The drama isnt mine…ITS HIS!! However, thats what he does…he comes in all smooth and silky like and then creates a whirlwind…all the time, sitting back and watching it.

WOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW!!! He’s SUCH a piece of work…

lesson learned


As the fog has been lifting for me, I’m needing to “label” and then address the the tactics. I got a lot of that in my DV group this last week and it was enormously helpful. I find that addressing the tactics used as they come up and then actually voicing them, talking about it, really really really helps me understand what games he was playing. Some I didn’t even see, it was such a mess. Such a horrible mess. I think if I were in this place now, I’d not have paid two minutes attention to him. I’d been in it for so many years, the tactics got worse and I was exhausted from trying to figure it and him out.

Waste of time!

But understanding what happened, is helping me make a lot of progress. It’s also revealing in what created my own vulnerabilities in getting sucked in in the first place.

Babe, that seems to be very common, trying to find out who you are after all is said and done. Seems that a lot was lost but it can be returned to you!



I will NEVER forget how he looked when he was leaving…and he said “THIS IS JUST A GAME! THATS ALL IT IS…ITS A GAME!”
At the time he said it, although he COULD have been sorta saying that to me as if he BELIEVED IIIII was playing a game iwth him, HOWEVER…that was NOT the sense I got at the time!

I honest to god got the sense he was TELLING ME WHAT HE WAS DOING and he was becoming FRUSTRATED with me because I wasnt seeing what he was doing…



he WILL contact you again. and again and again, as long as you have one shred of self-dignity left.

He doesn’t have any so he doesn’t want you to have any.

He has never loved you. He has never felt any of the drama that you experienced. There was ONE motivating factor in all the years of relationship with you: to wipe that smug look off your face. You are prey. and he is a predator. It appears that he is looking to find a host to supply him with things, but that is actually secondary. He saw you. He hated you. He targeted you for destruction.

Once you understand that. The battle is basically won.

Next time he calls, just say, “oh look there’s vomit on the floor, I have to go clean it – oh wait, that’s just your picture. Silly me.” and then hang up. LOL.

Well, actually, grey rock might be better.


bbbbwwwwhhhhahahahahahahahaha! I agree…he WILL contact me in order to try and destroy me. You are right…as long as I have self dignity, he will try to kill me TO SPITE it.
Hes getting creepier and creepier as I type…

Whens he gonna get it though that I WONT be destroyed? I may be bleeding but Im still breating…

And THATS what he hates!


yeah, a game. It was a game and he was telling you.
It’s the sociopathic TELL. All sociopaths do it.

Mine gave me a CD for valentines day: LOVE FOOL!

Oh and there were so many other tells, but unless you study the sociopath, you would never know it. It just looks like a WTF? moment.

Also, they will project as part of the tell, which is what yours was doing. He was “sort of” accusing you of playing a game but at the same time TELLING you that he was playing a game.

Another tell that they like to say is, “I don’t know WHO you are!” They are projecting and telling you that YOU don’t know who THEY are. because they have you fooled.

Really, I’m not sure what the best way is to deal with them. My initial impulse (and what I did) is to call him a sociopath and explain his infantile emotional retardation to him. Each move he made, I would call out his motivations in a “play by play”. I told him, “now you are saying x because y. SEE how predictable you are? It’s because you’re a SOCIOPAATH. Stop being a sociopath.” Then he would say, “stop calling me a social spaz”

But sometimes I think it might be best to not let him know what you know. perhaps that way you can gain the upper hand and backspath him when he keeps trying to get at you. I’m sure that’s the best way, but it’s hard when you just want to out him.

lesson learned

Hey Sky,

If we’re basically to understand the spaths, it’s about a switch of motives, correct?

What about the love bombing stage. If you’re a target, what about that is hating you? Do you know what I mean? Is this the ploy of every spath, to destroy someone? Or to get what he wants out of that potential target WHILE destroying. What are the motives?



LL, Motive?
why do you think they called it moral insanity? the motive is malice – nothing else. They are simply so filled with hate that they need an outlet. That outlet will zero in on “shiny happy people” They experience it as envy. It’s just infantile desires gone horribly wrong. We experience it as evil.

The lovebombing is just a con. They couldn’t approach you with the truth, because you would run away. The love bombing also serves the function of makine you feel as though you are on a pedastal. My exP actually told me that he liked to put people on a pedestal so they would have further to fall: if you make the highs, higher, then the lows will feel even lower.

The things he takes from you are just points he is racking up. It is proof of his power over you because you willingly gave those things. They need tangible symbols to prove that what they believe is REAL. What they accumulate proves the reality. Thats because they are shallow and the shallow people believe that the things are the only reality.

Jesus said, “my kingdom is not of this world”
I think he meant that his reality had nothing to do with the things you see in this world. Spaths use “things” as evidence to manipulate our beliefs. What seems real can be changed by re-arranging “things”.


Hmmmmm…the sociopathic tell, eh? I KNEW there was something to it…and not many people understand because it SEEMS so much like it really cant be what we KNOW it is…them TELLING us what they are doing!! WHO DOES THAT!!!

Ok, ok…I got a little grip on this now. Soooo then…whats he doing while Im not attending to him? I mean, is he plotting more schemes, is he going about his business without a thought about me, is he ‘wondering’ why I haveent responded?


OMG! I just read the last post you sent to LL…wholly crap! Lovebombing IS just a con! I sure as HELL would not have stayed had I known all the info up front…and every single time he left, he tried coming back by…nothing less than…
<3 POETRY <3 ahhhhhh…(pictures of hearts and doves above my head…gag)

I used to be told that his son and I were his two favorite people to be with. I belived that because I felt like that. UNTIL…I fell off that pedistal…boy oh boy…did I KNOW where MY place was then…

And he acknowledged it to me! OMG!!! As I sat sobbing over having my feelings hurt I said "when did I fall off the pedstal that (his son) and I were on? Its clear only (his son) is on it now!"

He shook his head 'yes'.

"the things are only the reality'…ahhh, hence the DOG! She was a 'symbol' of our commitment. And, well, if he said it and she is really alive then it MUST BE TRUE, right?


I wonder that about my exP too.
I don’t know the details, of course, but I have an idea.

you see, he told me he was really good at chess. But he doesn’t even play chess. What he meant is that he thinks of life as a big game and people are his pawns. He thinks many, many, many steps ahead. Always planning several moves ahead and always recruiting more pawns. EVERY SINGLE HUMAN HE ENCOUNTERS IS SIZED UP FOR POTENTIAL AS A PAWN OR PATSY. So that’s what he’s doing.

Once you are on his radar, he never actually loses the taste for your emotional feed tube. Right now he’s just off getting more variety, scheming, plotting. You know – what spaths do 24/7. Even if they work or have hobbies, it’s all tied in to placating his desire to do evil to good people.

Grayrock is supposed to “turn the milk sour”, so that he leaves. but he may never actually forget you and may try to keep coming back to see if he can get reaction from you. He will always envy and hate you for what you have: beauty, success, goodness, responsibility and the ability to love.

That’s why I know my spath will be back with a vengence one day.

As far as is he “wondering” why you haven’t responded, no. Spaths don’t “wonder” anything. They KNOW EVERYTHING ALREADY. They are so convinced of their superiority that they make up stories and then they believe them. If the story doesn’t mesh with the hard cold truth, then they just change the story and forget that they were ever wrong -instantly. Their little brains are exacty like a 3 year old’s.

I call them story driven characters because they live on stories. They are two dimensional, they have no depth. What I’ve described is like a character from a bad novel, but that’s exactly what they are: shallow, no depth.

lesson learned


This is one I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around. The INTENT, the MOTIVE…..

What is really interesting to me now, is that often the thoughts will just come and I take each one that does and I swear with each one is a lightbulb moment with regards to intentions and motives. And it keeps piling up, further increasing my depression as well, but underneath it all, there is A LOT of anger too. Seeing it for what it really WAS, is just more than I can do to not want revenge and I know where that would get me and how much HE”D love it. UGH!



lesson learned


While I do agree that we aren’t necessarily off the radar forever, I do think that some do go away and never return. I think this is why having been the OW may be my very saving grace in this matter. I was a tarnish to his reputation. 🙂 That’s not good for a spath.

But I can guarantee you that he HATES my gutts with a passion yet will NOT speak of it to anyone because he can’t.

It would blow his cover about me, especially with new gf, who knows nothing of me 🙂



you have a hard time wrapping your head around it because it’s not how normal people think.

Even spaths have a hard time wrapping their heads around their own motive. Some spaths, I think, are less aware than my own spath was of his motives.

my spath knew that he had an overwhelming desire to do evil and to lead others to do evil. So he was aware that his motive is malice and envy (he told me about the envy in a “tell”, he said, “it’s all about envy, they do evil because they are envious”) At the same time, he knew that his envy was beyond anything normal people feel, so he was convinced he was possessed by the devil.

Yet, he also required a “story” to provide his motive for his behavior. As in when he told me to keep treating him badly so that he could hate me more and do “what I have to do.”

Believing he was possessed was also a story he told himself. The devil had chosen him for some reason. Doesn’t that sound much more grandiose than the truth of being emotionally retarded?

But I believe that all of these stories are just distractions. Even the feeling of needing to do evil might be a distraction from the real need: DRAMA. They just need an emotional stimulous and they have seen that other peoples’ fear and pain is the most dramatic thing they can conjure up. So they do. they don’t care if you hurt, except as it satisfies their need to see you in pain.

And I believe that they choose us, not just for our “shiny happy people” appearance, but also for what they perceive as out empathic ability. That ability makes us easy targets to their pity ploy and also gives good supply in the form of lots of pain and anguish when we are hurt. We’re kind of like the “perfect storm” of empathy traits, which the spath finds irresistable suppy.

I don’t believe he will never return to you LL, he will try every once in a while. They all do. And he may speak of you one day when he decides to test his new gf’s boundaries. But he will leave himself an out. It’s what they do.

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