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By | April 1, 2011 1,591 Comments

Once we know what they are–we must maintain No Contact

By Ox Drover

One of the themes that seems to run throughout the stories of many of, if not most of, the people who have had experiences with psychopaths is that we have either had repeated episodes of being abused by the same psychopath, even after we saw their dishonesty, or had episodes of being sucked into the webs of multiple psychopaths. Or, we have both of these—multiple episodes with multiple psychopaths.

Most of the people I have known who were formerly victims of psychopaths are not stupid. In fact, some of the smartest, most accomplished people I know are former victims, and have been repeatedly victimized by one psychopath after finding out that this person was dishonest and abusive. Somehow, they kept on going back to the relationship, even after multiple attempts to disengage from the abuser. Why? Why does a person who is smart, accomplished, and otherwise successful in life and business keep repeating the same behavior that allows them to be hurt?

There is an often-used quote, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” It seems by this definition that the victims of psychopaths are “insane,” because we keep on trying to have a relationship with someone who is repeatedly abusive. There must be some reason that otherwise smart and successful people keep repeating the behavior that is unsuccessful in its outcome. There must be some common thread among victims and former victims that makes us susceptible to frequently returning to an unsuccessful and painful relationship.

Here’s a little story that may contain what may be a grain of truth that might point us toward the answer to the question of. “Why?”

The Chief and the Snake

Once upon a time there was a very wise and kind Indian chief. One day as the chief was walking through the forest, he came upon a rattlesnake in the path. He stopped and started to go around the snake, not wanting to hurt it, but not wanting to be bitten either.

As the chief started to pass around the snake, the snake spoke to him (not an unusual thing in those days) and said, “Chief, please have mercy on me, my wife and family are on the other side of yonder river, and I can’t swim, and I can’t get to them. Won’t you please pick me up and carry me across the river?”

The chief looked at the snake and laughed a bit and said, “Why, if I tried to pick you up you would bite me and I would die. I am sad that you have a problem but I must not be bitten, or I would die and my own children would starve because there would be no strong man with a bow to hunt brother deer to provide meat to my little ones. Though my heart feels sad for you, no, I must refuse to pick you up.”

The snake then spoke to the chief saying, “But such a brave man as you should not be afraid of such a small snake as I, and I promise from the bottom of my heart that I would never harm you if you were to help me across yon river. I am so afraid that if I am not able to get across, my wife and children will perish. Please help me in my hour of need.”

The chief looked at the snake and his heart was sad because he knew what it was like to have one’s children without food. His heart took pity on the snake, and he agreed to take the snake across the river, if the snake would agree not to bite him.

The chief reached out to pick up the snake and held him high over his head as he waded the swift and cold waters of the river. About half way across the river when the chief was doing his best to protect the snake from the cold waters, the snake reached down and bit him on the neck, sinking his poison fangs deep into the chief’s blood stream.

The chief was surprised and said to the snake, “Brother Snake, why did you bite me, now I will die and you will drown as well. You promised on your honor not to bite me if I would have mercy on you and help you, now we shall both die and our children starve. You promised me.”

The snake replied, “Ah yes, I promised, but you knew what I was when you picked me up,” as they both sank under the swirling cold water of the river.

What we have in common with the chief

What caused the chief to reach out and pick up a snake that he knew was poisonous, that he knew had the power to harm him, and that if he was wrong in making this decision to pick up the snake, and the snake did bite him, that his own children would suffer because of his decision?

Empathy is what the chief had, empathy for the children of the snake. Because the chief loved his own children, he assumed that the snake must also love its children. Just as the chief would do what was best for his children, he empathized that the snake would also do what was best. Since the chief knew that he would never do anything deliberately to cause consequences for his children, he did not see that the snake would deliberately do something that would cause problems for his own offspring.

Thinking that others have the same motivations that we have can get us into the same problems that the chief got into. The chief wanted to help the snake. He felt pity for the snake. He knew that he would not want someone to refuse to help him if it meant that he would die and his children would go hungry, so it never dawned on him that the snake would be willing to make a decision to do a deed that would insure that the snake-children would go hungry.

The chief’s empathy and his thinking that others had the same empathy, the same motivation for their behavior, and no reason to hurt another, even at the cost of hurting themselves or their near and dear, caused him to want to believe the snake’s promise not to bite.

The snake, however, was right. The chief knew what he was when he picked him up. When we allow ourselves to believe the promises of people who have proven that they are dishonest, we open ourselves to be repeatedly injured or even killed. When someone shows you what they are, believe your eyes. Believe what you see, not what you hear.

No Contact

“No contact” is the commonly accepted “treatment” for any abusive relationship. This means that only contact that is required by law (such as meeting that person in a courtroom due to a law uit) or the minimum amount of contact required by law to co-parent with such a person, is the only interaction between you and your former abuser. No contact allows the injuries to cease, and keeps you safe from new and repeated injuries from the abuser.

“No contact” also includes not stalking the person’s Facebook page or other social media. It means blocking or deleting any text messages, phone calls, e-mails or any other form of communication, including having others tell you what the former abuser is “up to.” Refusing to engage in tale carrying, gossip, or drama involved with the former abuser is also essential. If you must speak about the relationship, do it ONLY with a trusted friend or family member who sees that the relationship was/is abusive, and with assurances that the person will keep your information in absolute confidence. This process can be likened to “not renting them space in your head,” which includes wondering if they have a new relationship, and if they are making this new person happy o,r if they will change for this new person, or wondering if you were wrong about what they are.

You know what they are now, so don’t pick them up. NO CONTACT WORKS.

 

 


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Ox Drover

This one’s for you, EVA, you asked for it, here it is! (((hugs)))

hushabybabydoll

NC is a new thing for me (last 6 months), and part of knowing what my BM (Biological Mother) is up to, is how I prepare myself for any further attacks on her part, to keep myself safe. . . is this wrong? Do you think it’s obsessive? I want to keep tabs on where in the country she is and if she’s with somebody new because I know her patterns and this helps me to know if I need to prepare for another attack or not. . . . It’s hard to know what’s right to do. . .

Ox Drover

Dear BabyDoll,

Keeping checks on a STALKER is not a bad idea, and I think it doesn’t violate the SPIRIT of no contact….I keep up with my P-son in prison as much as I can and especially when he is up for parole etc. I no longer keep up with my egg donor (biological mother) or talk about her or listen about her. I did respond to an e mail from her of a personal nature a while back and I realized I shouldn’t have, BUSINESS ONLY is the rule from now on, no matter what the temptation is.

NC works because it gets them out of our head. If you think that your BM is stalking you or might show up on your doorstep or in any way reach out and touch you…keeping an eye on her might be wise. If you don’t think she is stalking you I wouldn’t. Also, I would not have any conversations with anyone else that you think might pass on any information about you or your whereabouts.

If your father has enabled her or covered for her that might include him as well.

You’ve had a lot of stress, with the new baby coming, the move, getting away from the abuse….and I strongly suggest that you keep changes of any kind and stress of any kind to a bare minimum for the next 2-3 years (and Yea, I know that will be hard with two toddlers around!) But spend that time bonding with your babies, enjoying them, LOTS OF TOUCHING THEM, holding them (good for both you and the babies) Hopefully, you can breast feed this baby even if you didn’t try it with the first one. There is lots of healing and bonding goes on with breast feeding. If you can’t breast feed, HOLD the baby every time you feed him/her as if you were breast feeding, close and firmly.

If you don’t know how to breast feed there are support groups all over the country La Leche leagues and so on….and it will help your healing as well. Even if you work, breast feeding is not undoable as you can feed the baby before you leave and the caregiver can give water or pumped milk during the day and then you can feed when you get home. Actually it is cheaper and easier I think. By 6 weeks your milk supply should be well established and keep up with your baby’s needs until weening.

Read about Stress responses on the body and mind (there are good books and articles on the net) and keep your stress down, do things that are calming and peaceful and enjoy those babies and your husband. God bless! (((hugs))))

breckgirl

Oxy I would add this – my P lives 4 blocks from me and is seriously out to lunch. I received real death threats – for me and my children. Due to other circumstances beyond my control I chose to stay where I am and prepare myself for any possible dangerous scenarios… It is complicated and not the point.

Here is the point – when I was actively trying to keep tabs on him it kept me emotionally hooked in and also living with that adrenalin rush of fear constantly coursing through my system. This was not good for me or my kids on any level. It was a distraction from living my own life. I firmly believed that by knowing what he was doing I was keeping myself safer and able to know the threat level. It was a horrible time and kept me hooked in for a year longer than i would have otherwise been. Lesson learned.

What I did to solve this for myself since it is a seriously dangerous situation…when I realized the havoc it was wreaking was to ask 2 trusted people who knew him and knew what he was up to – 1 being a room mate he had in his house – to act as an early warning system. Additionally a friend and neighbor who knows him and the situation and is mostly home keeps watch over us. So if he were to for whatever reason decide he was going to head to my house I would receive a phone call to look out and be prepared for it. The secondary person also interacts with him in a limited way but he knows if he is talking about me or focused on me and therefore can let me know what is in his head and that I need to take extra safety measures – that along with a dog, an excellent alarm system with a secondary system so if power is cut and yes – protective weapons and a very alert local police department (they have a file about 6 inches thick at this point)… Keeps me safe – it keeps me in MY today and not focused on what he is doing over there. I do not need to think about him at all unless I am warned. For over two years now – living 4 blocks from him that has worked beautifully for me.

Good luck to you – peace of mind and heart is amazing!

Ox Drover

Dear Breckgirl,

I hear you…I call it LIVING IN CAUTION, NOT TERROR….and you described it very well. I agree with your point to, knowing everything about them daily isn’t necessary if we can have an “early warning system” in place.

I am well armed and well prepared to defend myself, and I know that it’s possible I might fail, but I don’t want, I REFUSE TO, life in TERROR all the time. It does take TIME for the “hyper-alert” or “hyper-vigilance” decrease when we have felt threatened (doesn’t matter if the threat is very real or only imagined, it is the FEELING threatened that is the key word here)

I am tired of living like a “long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs” in continual anxiety and renting them space in my head, wondering if the sound I heard outside is one of them driving up. Stress hormones take time to get out of our system and there is a gradual calming down of the effects of that continual surge of hormones and the “fight or flight” mode of thinking.

I totally agree with you that we must do whatever will allow us to FEEL SAFE and to let those hormones calm down and our minds and bodies recover. Being anxious and nervous and paranoid and stressed out also keeps us from thinking clearly and making informed decisions as we tend to “react” rather than RESPOND which is more clear headed.

Thanks for you post BreckGirl, I’m glad you are here! Good points (((hugs)))

agreenbean

i am working on this. its been 3 weeks now. that is usually as long as it lasts before he reaches out though. i’m trying to avoid that though. won’t read the emails, block the phone #.
but we live near each other, we go to the same places. eventually we will run into each other.
how do i handle that? i get jumpy and hyper vigiliant just going to the grocery store because i’m afraid he might be there. he is not physically violent but his words are daggers and i fear what he will say if i ignore him, or what he will say if i don’t!

hushabybabydoll

Thank you Ox Drover!

I have gotten rid of my facebook account entirely– (her pawns are everywhere) and have not contacted my father in 3 months because I can’t handle the emotions, but he doesn’t have my address or phone number. The only thing that both of my parents have is my email address. My sister who snapped out of her stolkholm syndrome during the time that all this hit the fan (in fact both she AND my brother snapped out of it at the same time, it was a true miracle) is the only person I speak to who knows my BM personally and is still in contact with her. My sister has come a long way and only contacts BM with two intentions: 1) to know where she is so that she can keep me in the know and 2) to get a good laugh at the ridiculous and stupid things BM is up to which validates my sisters newfound knowledge that BM is a Sociopath.

The day I told my sister was a remarkable day in our lives. I just got the book “The Sociopath Next Door” and BINGO my eyes were opened. I wasn’t going to tell my siblings what I learned because I knew it was volatile and potentially going to open me up for a lot of accusations and the like.

But days after I found out BM was planning on moving next door (the irony was NOT lost on me) my little sister calls me and says she’s putting herself in the mental ward because she just found out some information that was going to hurt my family a great deal, but made me swear not to tell anybody, and said she needed to go to the ward to keep herself from killing herself. Well then she informed me that BM had gotten our father to agree to giving her a massive amount of money (we were planning on buying the family business)- so she could live very close to us. That’s when I told her. I felt I needed to. She refused it at first, but within the week she was laughing about it. She knew it was true once the truth was made available. Soon after I informed my brother, and he fought it too, saying that even sociopaths could be saved, and I questioned him whether he was going to stake his safety and family for her. He soon accepted the errors of his thinking too . . .and now the three of us are united and AWARE. I call it our sanity miracle. After decades of being turned against each other by BM and favoritism by both parents we were able to put it aside and decide how we wanted to protect ourselves and we CAME TOGETHER. Both siblings totally supported our move even though that meant dad was on his own, the curtains were lifted and TRUTH finally became evident to all of us in one fell swoop. Thanks be to God! I know it is an uncommon grace, and I am so grateful for it, though it hurt like crazy- it was the very best way to end that chapter of our stories.

And I started talking to people back in my old hometown, when we were getting to move, people I generally trusted, and finally told them what had happened to me. What was remarkable to me is that most of them KNEW FULL WELL what evil BM was capable of, and had seen her in action or been on the receiving end of her manipulation and blackmail, but had never so much as peeped a hint at it to me. Like the Truman Show, I felt like everybody knew what I didn’t, and their secrets kept me in bondage. Every chance I get to mirror truth to those in captivity, I take it.

sorry about me going on. . . .man it’s so much to process. I am extremely grateful to be on the other side, but it will still take time, it was a long road to freedom, and I think I’m just about to start tasting it.

Breastfeeding was the most brilliant thing I did with my firstborn. He nursed for 18 months, and the bond it created is evident in his confidence as we have moved 2 times in the last 3 months. It’s obvious that he is secure with us. I love the closeness I feel with him and watching him discover the world. I have also found healing in the little things that he has that I didn’t have. Like blueberries. . .he LOVES them and squeals when I bring them out. . .whereas my BM would give food to me and take it away as I was eating it as a sick game. . .I am trying to let myself heal as I enjoy my child’s freedom.

I will look into stress response. . . The Lord knows I need some more physical relaxation as I have stored so many toxins inside of me. Though I found the work of Conrad Baars to be so helpful, especially his cds: Affirmation and Psychological incarnation. With their aid, I have experienced a level of peace that was altogether new to me, as I had hosted PTSD for at least 25 years.

Ox Drover

Dear Greenbean,

It doesn’t matter what he says—turn and walk away. Make up your mind NOW what you will do….TURN AND WALK AWAY.

You know what he is, he is a RATTLE SNAKE, he is poison, toxic, and he WILL BITE YOU AGAIN if you get close enough.

You deserve to be safe. The ONLY way you will be safe is if you walk away.

Feeling sorry for him is DANGEROUS and his promises are no better than the Snake’s were.

If you make up your mind that no matter what he does or says that you will WALK AWAY, LEAVE, GO TO SAFETY…If necessary, drive to the nearest police station. (and know where that is in advance). It doesn’t matter what others around you say or how they look at you. What matters is that you are SAFE and AWAY from him.

Avoid places that you think he might be at for a while….I no longer shop the same grocery store where my egg donor shops, I ran into her once unexpectedly and I don’t want that to happen again, so I shop elsewhere. I no longer go to places she might be likely to show up. Sometimes that includes family funerals and gatherings, but I am determined to keep myself physically and EMOTIONALLY safe.

Congratulations on the 3 weeks of NC! YOu can do it! (((hugs)))

Ox Drover

Dear Babydoll,

Keep on the healing road that you have started. I would caution you though about keeping up too much “drama” over BM’s antics and stuff going on, it may tend to keep your stress going. Just take it by how you feel when you are talking, thinking, about her.

I’m glad that you were able to breast feed your first child and will this one as well. It is so bonding for the children and for the mother as well. The books I am reading on oxytocin (the bonding hormone released in breast feeding and other times) and also the necessity of TOUCH in the human life. Watching little ones grow is so enjoyable. I love the way they learn language!

I’m glad that you and your sibs were able to bond and to all realize the toxic relationships you had in the situation with your BM and BF. Yes, we wonder at the other people who “knew” about the toxic behavior of the Ps, and did not warn us, but at the same time, the warnings might not have been believed. Sometimes we are like Carrie ten Boom, we have to let God carry the tool box until we are big enough to lift it up.

It seems like God has also been very good to you, blessing you with an understanding and supportive husband, with a new relationship with your sibs and an escape route to get away from the BM and BF. So those are all things to be thankful for! That and finding LF! Your success has put a smile on my face today, BabyDoll! It makes me feel warm inside to hear a GOOD story of escape from the tragic BMs in this world. (((hugs)))

lesson learned

Ox,

Very good and timely article. I’d still like to see one written about the early obsessing ruminating about the ex’s that all of us have been through from the perspective of someone who is further along in the healing journey.

Three more days and it will be four months since I laid eyes on the bastard.

Here’s to a day more! Also, greenbean, I do not shop where I think he will show up. At least for now. This means that I pay A LOT MORE for groceries that I should not, but my safety is more important right now. I also do not go out around town during his lunch breaks or right after I know that he’s off of work. This has been very helpful to me. For right now, I’m staying home most of the time, although therapy, groups and my son’s therapy will say I’m out a lot more, but I do not schedule appointments around the time he might just be out and about. It’s isolating, but it’s necessary for now.

And there isn’t ONE thing wrong with protecting yourself emotionally and/or physically until you’re strong enough to either withstand or be completely indifferent to his presence.

LL

lesson learned

Ox,

I’ve been reading the most INTENSE scripture about abusive spouses….this could be taken to mean ANYONE who is so toxic. I can’t tell you how much it’s helping me.

I”ve been researching this alot, trying to reconnect to my faith.

I DO believe God is real. But I had only dabbled in what scripture says about abuse. I recall asking a pastor about this when I was getting ready to separate from my abusive spouse. He gave me the definition of adultery, that in my mind, was only applicable to “sexual infidelity”.

Wow. I’m learning a lot. A lot. I’m trying not too be too hard on myself as I read, having been on both sides of the fence, but rather applying it to TWO abusive men I was with, ABUSIVE..how God views that.

Amazing healing is happening from that understanding.

Just wanted to share. My faith is growing. It’s up and down, but How God sees is important to me.

LL

geminigirl

Years ago I read this great book written by a male Christian lawyer, called “Gods view on Divorce.” he had researched the whole issue in the Bible very thoroughly and basically he said that, yes, God does HATE Divorce but there are exceptions to the rule.
By this time I had left my alcoholic and wife beating and abusive first husband,had divorced him and had remarried to my present darling husband.
I was at the time attending a very Fundamentalist type prayer group. At the time I felt I needed it, but I now see that the old guy who ran it,{he was a pastor, retired over 80,}was very narrow minded indeed.I couldnt understand WHY he kept on praying aloud for Peter,, my ex, and never mentioned my present husbnd.! After almost a year of this, I challenge d him on it. he ADMITTED hed been praying that David and I split up and I go back to my ex, who by htis time was living happily with another woman.! This is WITCHCRAFT!I had no contact with my ex, and had long ago forgiven him.
I was FURIOUS with the old Pastor,-how dare he!
There is NO WAY you will EVER change these peoples minds they are like concrete,firmly set.
Anyway, I was in turmoil, then I found this book by the Christian Lawyer. he explained there were 2 levels of Adultery,called Porneaio, and Fornaeo, one was Physical Adultary and the other was Spiritual adultery.
He had found in the bible that God HATES both forms of adultery but the emotional abuse type was the worst.
He said,”If your ex or current husband has
beten you, emotionally abused you, gone with prostitutes,
isi n a habitually drunken state, God positively COMMANDS and ORDERS you as the abused party to LEAVE.!!
If you do not, God will literally HAUL YOU OUT of it by your hair! {He literally did this with me!}God does NOT want you to live in a n abusive marriage, he wants us to be happy, loved, and fulfilled.
So, if ex husband has done any of hese things, beaten you, emotionally abused you, been habitually drunk, HE HAS ALREADY BROKEN HIS VOWS TO GOD and GOD hates him up and until he is ready to break down and honestly repent and turn his life around.{Of course, thi s applys just a s well to female abusers!}
I CANT TELL you how relieved I was to read this book and relise that God not only DID NOT condemn me, He actually had ordered me to leave!
I left th fundamentalist Preyer group soon after.These peopl will never change their views and the others in the group were so brain washed none of them supported my views!
Love,
Mama GemX

Ox Drover

gem,

I understand what you are talking about and some people who have a “fundamental” view of things try to tell others how they should feel or think.

Did you hear about that NUT JOB PREACHER HERE who burned the Koran after promising President Obama that he would not—and then 12 people were killed in Riots in the middle east…he said the reason he BROKE HIS PROMISE was to give the Arabs a chance to “defend” their book. He has never met a Muslim he said but now he is responsible for 12 deaths by causing the riots. What a narcissistic nut job….talk about anything for attention!

That kind of person give any religion a bad name, and he is the same as the men who drove the planes into the twin towers on 9/11—-he is willing to lie for his “beliefs” and for inciting riots, break promises. He and his 30 followers have caused an international incident that cost innocent people their lives.

I think there are people like this in every “religion”—and we have probably all had ancestors who were killed or burned at the stake for their beliefs, and also had other ancestors who probably lit the fire that burned the others….but we don’t have to accept this kind of behavior or actions…or to let it turn us away from our beliefs. We can come to our own beliefs (fortunately) in this country where we are not generally forced or too badly persecuted for those beliefs, as in some countries.

I was raised in a fundamentally hard core group and my egg donor pushed her ideas on me, but I also saw that like that man who burned the Koran, she doesn’t keep her word—she lies. Just like he lied when he promised Obama that he would not burn the Koran, then he turned around and did so. He, like all psychopaths and liars, had an “excuse” of why he broke his promise, but it doesn’t even sound sane to anyone but him and his deluded cultish followers.

That man doesn’t “get it” what Jesus was about or what love is about, or honesty, or truth or anything else. His soul is evil and his heart is black with HIS OWN NARCISSISM.

I realize that I had read the Bible through the FILTER of my egg donor’s prejudices…that the Bible lessons were more about love and kindness and much less about hell and brimstone and punishment for not living up to my egg donor’s wishes. I realized that The God of the Bible was a lot less critical and a lot nicer than the egg donor…funny that! I see so many lessons in some of the old “Bible stories” about how people treated each other, and how they should treat each other. I realize the Bible has lots of lessons for “how to live a happy life” and how to find peace. I think it was Benjamin Franklin (not sure though) who said “sin is not bad because it is labeled sin, it is labeled sin because it is bad for you.”

If you think about it, the things the Bible says are “sins” ARE BAD FOR YOU— stealing, lying, murder, adultery, etc. every one of those things brings pain. Children are told to “honor their parents” and parents are told to bring their children up with kindness and NOT PROVOKE THEM TO WRATH (vengeful anger for unjust treatment). Well, what does “honor your parents’ mean? In my book, it means to become the kind of person that would bring honor to a parent, but it doesn’t mean you have to be a door mat to an abusive parent.

Once I got the prejudices of my egg donor out of the way, that SHE was the only one who had a direct telephone to God’s will, it was AMAZING just what I saw in the Bible. All the love and forgiveness that is there, the caring and the road map to a peace. Even if you are not a “believer” there is still some great messages there on how to live a peaceful and happy life. How to avoid bad guys and be a good guy, how to help others, but not how to be a door mat. I think you are 100% right, Gem, God doesn’t want us to be door mats or to fly planes into the towers, or light the fire under unbelievers either, but to rejoice in life and the blessings we have. (((hugs)))) God bless.

petite

Hi Oxy,
an excellent article and very timely for me.
It makes so much sense, why do we keep going back to them, why do we intellectually understand it all and still go back trying to think it will be different.
as you said – why do we pursue the insanity.
I am so tired with his saga, his drama, my drama, the whole nonsensical crap.
I will do it, – my mantra from you is “it doesn’t matter”
thank you
from :
an insane petite – taking her first step onto the path of sanity.

skylar

Hi Petite,
You sound sane to me.

There is nothing insane about wanting your dream. You just need to understand that HE ISN’T IT. He’s a poisonous snake.

Open yourself to new possibilities Petite. When you fixate on a specific thing that you feel will complete you, you may be overlooking many other things that are going to make you happy. I know you dream of an intelligent physician partner. That is a nice dream, but what if you overlook a physicist or a journalist who is equally intelligent? What if God has MORE planned for you than you can even imagine? He has always done that for me and I think that he does that for all of us. Even though I rail against the lessons, I’m also greatful for the knowledge.

Allow yourself to experience people in a new way Petite. You don’t have to be afraid because you know the red flags. Nobody can fool you now. (Plus you have LF to offer help if you need it)

Maybe a physician would be too much like you Petite and you would get bored within a few years. If you find someone to complete you who works in a different field, then you will have a wellspring of new knowledge to keep your mind engaged for years. Get out there and have fun Petite, don’t think of that boring old spath anymore.

petite

Thanks Skylar,
agree, he is a poisn snake.
Last week in Sydney at a meeting, I spoke to him on the phone and went into a total emotional spin. The Sydney meeting with him not being there triggered me with memories of past meetings when he was there.
Then on the phone I wept and told him how much I missed him and how I should go for the meeting in USA (this week, which I had cancelled the plan) and that how we should rethink of getting together again. I even sent him a email telling him the same and that we should think of getting back together and bring back the good times.
This phase lasted for 5-6 days and now I realise how I was so foolish, how I caved in and totally lost my balance.
he replied the email – saying he is at the meeting now and will think and reply to me in a few days time.
I put my foot into it, I acted on my feelings for him.
I made a mistake.

Now i am worried about what if he replies and says lets get back again.
I don’t want to, so I am going to either not reply at all (as Oxy said), but then I was the one who sent him the email, so I am thinking of saying .
X,
I did have thoughts of getting back again, but rethinking over and over again, I think the long distance between us will always be an obstacle / hindrance for a balanced relationship.

Sky – what do you think.
yes I was stupid, I made a mistake, Oxy – said – it is OK, we are humans, we have feelings, we do make mistakes.
petite

Ox Drover

Dear Sweet Petite,

You reacted emotionally and now you worry you will feel guilty if he extends his hand back to you and you don’t reach out….IF IT WERE A NORMAL RELATIONSHIP, you might have a reason to feel guilty. BUT this is NOT A NORMAL RELATIONSHIP.

It is a one-sided relationship with a man whose apparent only object was to get a beautiful woman in bed with him and someone who would pay her own way on some exotic travels. Ok, you got to see some lovely country and places…but you have told me how cross and controlling he was and spoiled some of those visits.

Unless you are just wanting a man to shack up with at conventions every few months I think this man is not going to meet your needs. I think, knowing you as I do that you are not just looking forf some guy to shack up with for a week at conventions a few times per year—in other words “friends with benefits” (Sex from time to time but no strings or attachments) You would be one of many I am sure and I think you realize that as well.

NO response if he e mails or calls you you, just delete it don’t read it. He will get the idea and you don’t owe him anything. Close and lock the door to the relationship, throw the key in to the sea and forget about him.

Well, I am going to bed now, have a lovely rest of the weekend. (((hugs)))) Love Oxy

KatyDid

Oxy,
I agree the preacher is a nutjob.

But don’t you think that people who murder others and blame some nutjob in Georgia for it, isn’t that also nutjob thinking? Sounded pure spath to me, murdering and feeling entitled b/c I was offended by nutjob “A” so I murdered some other people I found?

There’s a lot of people that offended me, but no way would I murder them, never mind murdering several others as a substitute for the offender. IMHO

pollyannanomore

Oxy – you’re really good at linking seemingly unrelated analogies to our situations with the spaths. I, like so many others went back multiple times only to be wounded with the same ole behaviours again and again.

He actually said to me later on “You knew what I was when you married me.” (That was before I really knew).

Like the man in the story, I believed all his sob stories and raced to help him in any way possible. It’s still quite surreal to be my myself and see all the changes that have taken place in his absence since implementing no contact.

My life definitely improved markedly …any contact with him was just an opportunity for him to manipulate and make me feel bad again.

petite

Dear Oxy,
you know me very well. I definitely do not want a man for only short term outings and conferences. I will never settle for that with anyone, not in my list of options.
No way.

yes, those visits to nice cities with him, were not all that nice and every single trip I cried at some stage or the other, it was red flags all over, one trip would end, he would butter me up in the 2-3 months in between the trip by sweet emails, and then I would think – OK, this time he knows what upsets me and he will be more careful.
Same repeat episode in the next trip, some other topic, other situation would arise and I would feel toppled over or guilted in a conversation.

so I know he is poison for me, and I am beginning to digest what you said that – I do not have to feel guilty for anything I said or wrote to a poison snake.

thanks for your advice.
petite

petite

Hi Katy,
see what a mess i landed myself into. even with all the advice here, I goofed and went into an emotional spin with him.
was a test, I came out burnt, maybe a lesson to never get to that stage again.
your thoughts.
petite

skylar

Yes Petite, you made a mistake. But it is a mistake that is easy to fix and actually you can come out ahead.

His response that he needs a few days to think about it, means that he wants to punish you for trying to get away from him. You caused him a narcissistic injury and he needs to think of the best way to torture you for it. All spaths do this. Mine began poisoning me the first time I left him and the third time, he secretly video taped our sexual encounter to use later against me. You are in more danger than before so maybe that will encourage you to avoid him.

Furthermore, spaths are all paranoid. there are many reasons for this. one reason is because they know that they intend to hurt everyone they know and they expect those people to eventually retaliate. Another reason is because they think that everyone is evil, since they are evil. Another reason they are paranoid is because they have talked themselves into believing that everyone is out to hurt them so that they can FEEL JUSTIFIED WHEN THEY DO EVIL THINGS.

Spaths don’t live in a world of reality, like you and I do. One Step/Joy posted today about her conversation with a 5 year old child. She said it was very much like her spath, in that the 5 year old was able to flow easily between fantasy and reality It is easy for them to believe what they want to believe so now that you have given him a narcissistic injury, he will believe that you are doing it on purpose and deserve to be punished.

Even as he believes that, he will believe the opposite at the same time. He will know that you really do love him and will find a way to torture you through your love. It will never occur to him that these two beliefs are contrary and can’t both be true at the same time. That’s because spaths are spathalogical!! 🙂

So Petite, is that the kind of creature you want to live with for the rest of your life? That is what I lived with for 25 years and almost died because of it. He has a personality disorder that used to be called Moral Insanity because he doesn’t seem insane until you start to look at the bizarre way he thinks about right and wrong. Then it becomes clear that he is completely insane – OR ELSE HE IS 5 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!

But anyway, it may now be to your advantage to pretend to be evil. You could let him believe that you emailed him with the idea of getting back with him because you are being evil and mean. This is your advantage because he will not know how to hurt you if you are evil.

It isn’t hard to convince the spaths of anything you want them to believe because, well, frankly, they are 5 YEARS OLD! Just play along with the story line. Say any bizarre thing that comes into your head or say nothing at all.

But I do want to warn you Petite, that the moment you contacted him again, you re-ignited his desire to hurt you. He may begin slandering you to your colleagues. I have no doubt that he is keeping your emails to show other people how CRAZY YOUR ARE!!! keep all the backspaths OFF OF EMAIL.

Be very careful, Petite. Remember that they are STORY DRIVEN CHARACTERS. Drama is what they thrive on so they will do whatever it takes to create more drama in everyone around them.

My standard advice still stands: Gray Rock, SHOW NO EMOTION.

((hugs Petite)) I know that it’s hard because you are human, but remember that he is not.

petite

thanks dear skylar,
I agree with all you have said. I gave him a narcisstic injury in Jan when I told him at my place that I did not want to continue.
later, he still sent me some very sweet emails, so I thought when I would say – lets rethink, he would also say -” yes, I missed you,”becoz he did send me emails for a while after jan saying the same.
so I think he built up my expectations, by telling me he misss me, so that when I got ready with my emotional outburst, he was ready to send me into a tailspin by not saying sweet wods, instead saying he needs time to think about it and how he thinks distance will be a problem, and that I was the one who said in Jan, lets not go ahead and now I am asking to get back again.

ok, gray rock, no emotion.
I plan to say something like what I wrote in the above post or say nothing at all, when he does send me his reply.

No, I do not want to be with this kind of creature.

you said – it may now be to your advantage to pretend to be evil. You could let him believe that you emailed him with the idea of getting back with him because you are being evil and mean. This is your advantage because he will not know how to hurt you if you are evil.

cannot understand, can you explain a bit as to how this can be to my advantage and what words I can use back to him to come out with an advantage.

thanks sky.
petite

skylar

Petite,
The idea is to pretend that you broke up with him in January and then asked to see him again because you are only playing with his “heart”. The only reason I suggest this is because if he believes it, he will stop trying to play with YOUR heart because he will believe you don’t HAVE A HEART.

NC would work for this, you don’t actually have to say anything. Showing no emotion will work as well. Just say you changed your mind. My point, Petite, is that you STOP WEEPING in front of him or on the phone or in emails. Show NO EMOTION. When you show emotion, you have shown your hooks. When you show NO EMOTION, he will think you are like him: EMOTIONLESS. He will think you only pretended to care about him. So that is better than the truth, which is that you really did care about him.

petite

Hi Sky,
By showing him my emotions – I think that as a normal man, he will value me for my love for him, he does not seem to get it and instead he uses my love for him to abuse me further. (narcissistic ways).
the pretending that I have no heart is a very difficult thing for me to do.

what I can do though – is go gray rock, no emotion in emails, phone call, and actually limit emails and nil phone calls. This I can do with not much difficulty. If need be – I will say – By thinking it over repeatedly – the long distance is a huge obstacle for a healthy relationship.
No emotion at all. no sweet kisses in the email or heart related words, just one solid sentence as above.
agree ?
petite

petite

Hi schic,
nice post on “rumination” with lot of good advice. helping me during this time.
I messed up as you have seen my post, but with all the help here, I am getting my strength back.
petite

super chic

Mr Green, a spath, makes the first comment.
It was actually interesting, although I don’t want to become “like them”.

petite

Hi schic,
for sure, we cannot ever be ” like them “.
did you have a chance to read my post on how I messed up,
post on this thread at 1.04pm.
petite

super chic

petite, I just read about it.
ok, so you made a mistake,
don’t beat yourself up over it,
you are a human being. Haven’t most of us done this?

Skylar’s advice is perfect, go gray rock,
show no emotion, throw him for a loop…
he won’t know what hit him,
too bad. You’re just taking your control
back by going grey rock.

I think you’re doing very well,
many people do not learn from their mistakes.
I used to repeat them over and over thinking I
would get a different outcome… isn’t THAT insanity!!?

I’ve got to go now… see you tomorrow!

petite

thanks Schic,
what does “throw him for a loop” mean.

I gave him a narcisstic injury in Jan when I told him at my place that I did not want to continue.
later, he still sent me some very sweet emails, I thought he really missed me, so I thought when I would say ”“ lets rethink, he would also say -” yes, I missed you,”.
Instead, He built up my expectations, by telling me he misses me, so that when I got ready with my emotional outburst, he was ready to send me into a tailspin by not saying sweet words, instead saying he needs time to think about it and how he thinks distance will be a problem, and that I was the one who said in Jan, lets not go ahead, and now I am asking to get back again. Basically inflicting back the injury onto me.

I think I have been insane a few times and this was the latest one – one that taught me much about myself.

Ok gray rock it will be.

petite

Stargazer

Oxy, there you go with the snake references again. LOL I heard that story with a scorpion instead of a snake.

But I wanted to comment on the main point of the article. I hung in with my ridiculous spath for 3 months or so because I DIDN’T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON. I believed the stories he had told me that would have explained his weird behaviors. As soon as I figured out that he was lying and playing some sort of game with me, I made my exit. I asked him never to contact me again. I made my intentions crystal clear. In fact I threatened him with turning him in to the army if I even saw him on my internet site again. And I made GOOD of my threat! But I never ever spoke to him or wrote to him again. What is the point?

When you see what they are, you know you will never be able to reason with them, to get any kind of empathy out of them or to get them to keep their word about anything. So what is the point of talking to them?

Fortunately for me I never went into the infamous “fog”. As soon as I figured it out, I was gone. It took a long time afterward, though, to wrap my brain around the depth of the deception and the personality type. My brain tricked me for a few months into thinking maybe he really did love me. That’s what LF is for. They all gave me a dose of reality.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones. I got in and out quickly. But it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been involved. You can still get out and get on with your life. The way I saw it, the sociopath took 3 months of my life. Why give him one more second of it?

Stargazer

Oh Petite,
I understand how hard it is to let the dream go. I have had a hard time letting go of my dream with the guy in Costa Rica I met last fall. I have the option of trying to meet up with him in May when I’m there. I will be going right through his town. I’m struggling with this. But the reality is that he has moved on with his life. Very likely sleeping with other women (probably not just one, but who knows). He may even be happy to see me. His eyes may get teary and he may want to get close to me again. But an occasional romp in the hay with a favorite lover is not what I want ultimately. I will get hurt all over again. Even when NOT dealing with sociopaths, long distance relationships that span continents just seem doomed to fail. I am a hopeless romantic and held onto the dream as long as I could. But the reality is that if he really wanted me, he would beg me to come back. He would go out of his way to see me. This has not happened. So I have to decide what I need to do to protect my heart. And he didn’t play ANY games with me, Petite. He was completely honest. Sounds like yours is the master of games – keeping you hooked and then discarding you, but keeping you on a string. Let it go, petite. Look at how it drains your energy. Life is too short to play these games with people. If this man truly wanted you, you would be together.

echosandsilence

wow, this thread just really sums it up, this one needs to have a sticky and stay at the top

petite

Hi Star,
good morning to a nice weekend for you.
yes, my guy is a master at deceit and a game player. he played it for so long by keeping his wife in the dark.
I am very tired, you are right, they take up so much of our energy. I am going to let him go and let the crap go with him.
as Oxy said – I don’t care what he thinks, whether he wants to keep me on a string or place me on the chariot of love. it doesn’t matter. I have no interest in understanding his games anymore.
thanks Star for all the advice.
I also have many triggers like you said listening to some songs that made you cry etc. my biggest trigger is this weekend, where now in USA, he is at a meeting and this was the meeting we had met last year at the same time and shared some lovely (fake) times. I thought I would be curled in the fetal position thinking of him with the another woman, but I must say that thanks to LF, I feel calm and composed and a feeling of “being fed up” to even think of what he must be upto.
I don’t care, he is not my business anymore.
petite

Stargazer

Petite,
Your post is a great way to start my weekend, honey. Be prepared for him to try to drag you back in. Then you can just sit back and observe his games without responding.

I am also having a hard time with the neighbor that I slept with a few times – seeing him around the complex more now that the weather is nicer. I’ve been considering walking away from my condo for 5 years now. This may just be the year to do it. It would be great never to have to see him again either. And also to get out from under this albatross of a property that I’m very upside down on.

lesson learned

Star,

GOOD FOR YOU! I think that’s a great idea!!! You”re growing so much!

I’m really proud of you!

LL

lesson learned

Petite,

It will pass. I agree with Star, he will try to lure you back in. If you can block his emails, then you wouldn’t even know about it.

Just hang on!

LL

petite

yes Star,
get away from the neighbour. even a glimpse of them can send us into a tail spin.
you are a very strong woman Star, just move and find a nice more affordable place, most importantly a place where there is mental peace.
are you in Los Angeles, I thought you were somewhere in California – and I am sure it is terribly expensive there.
I am not sure what games he will have in place for me, I don’t even want to rent him that space in my brain. However, he will come up with some prank and it will always aim at making me feel guilted, however, now I am strong, I know Oxy’s mantra to me – whatever he says or thinks – doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter.
petite

petite

Hi LL,
good morning,
missed talking to you last night, I think you went to bed early.
Skylar and Schic were awake and they gave me some good advice.
today I finally decided – No More, I am not going to fear him, worry about him, yearn for his approval, wait for his swet words – nothing – no more.
and i feel so relieved.
Have been doing bank work, paper work, sorting out snail mail, filing, etc. this evening something which I was not paying any attention to for the last 3 months.
It is nearly midnight here, so will soon go to sleep.
He can go sleeping around and as Oxy said – give my nightmare to others, I have no interest in his life at all.
petite

Ox Drover

Star,

Many of us did know what the P was though, and we still picked them up….or picked them up again…..we fell for the pity play.

We knew they cheated (or had cheated in the past multiple times) we knew they were DISHONEST, or whatever the particular pattern was….we knew they were potentially poison and capable of venom, yet we let them get close to us again, depending on their promises when we knew they had been liars.

Your case is an unusual one in that you were not involved all that long with him, and you did kick him out when you saw what he was. Unfortunately, most of the time, we “give them another chance” because we, like the chief, have too much EMPATHY for them and we fall for the PITY PLOY.

I haven’t fallen for the pity ploy with every psychopath I’ve been involved with in one way or another—but the “love bomb” of them impressing me with what a good and honest person they are has WORKED FOR ME, and even if I was WARNED by someone else I did not believe person who warned me. LOL This is in both personal and business relationships. They come on strongly as YOUR BEST FRIEND at first….telling you how wonderful you are! And we sure LIKE THAT APPROACH! LOL It is the perfect PITCH for a con person. But now we know it is a “bait and switch”game and goes from you are the most wonderful person to you are a biatch! Then back and forth the pendulum swings….well, you got off on the first swing on that one. (the reptile site guy) I have a few times too, but mostly I rode the swinging ride for a while…..or in the case of my P son for DECADES.

As for the neighbor. I’m gonna be blunt here. Giving up your home just because of him is ALLOWING HIM TO CONTROL YOUR THOUGHTS AND YOUR LIFE.

1. Accept that the Guy JUST WANTED A PIECE OF ASS, that is all he was after. ALL he was after. NOTHING else. He cared NOTHING about you except as a receptical for his junk you were not even a human to him.

2. Anyone who would act the way he acted about it and who would treat someone else the way he has treated you IS A PIEZE OF CHEET!

3. SO WHY ARE YOU LETTING HIM CONTROL YOUR EMOTIONS about this? You do NOT have to you know.

He is a pieze of cheet, so why is his strutting around there important to you? YOU CAN CONTROL HOW YOU VIEW HIM, or if he triggers you or you DESPISE HIM.

When you look at him strutting around there, say to yourself “HEY BOZO, you just don’t know what you missed, and YOU MR. are a PIEZE OF CHEET!”

Stargazer

Oxy, that’s not the only reason I want to leave. But it certainly contributes. I don’t even want to share my pool space with him any more. I have wanted to get out of here for a long time.

Ox Drover

Star I know that from your posts last year, but at the same time, even if you are upside down in your place, it is “yours” and renting a place can be problematic as well. (Ask One/Joy about that!)

Moving is also a hassle and a half…even if you take only the “bare essentials” which in your case includes snake [email protected] Also, just wanting to leave one spot I have found is not always a good way to change residences, it is better if you feel that you are Not just leaving one thing, but MOVING ON TO SOME PLACE ELSE. I don’t know if that makes any sense.

Stargazer

Oxy, if i want to own again some day, I will still be able to do that. I will probably be able to get way more for my money that this tiny little place. This is not a place I’d want to stay permanently with or without the neighbor boy. In fact, he will probably move in the next year or two. So it’s not totally about him. But having him as a constant trigger when I’m feeling so vulnerable does not help my frame of mind.

Ox Drover

I understand, Star, truly I do. Living this close to the egg donor was a trigger for a while, but I have about gotten over the worst of it now. It was like a BLACK CLOUD hung over that part of the farm. Fortunately I have a “back entrance” road that I don’t even have to go out by her house, but I can see it as I go out my drive from the woods, but when I am back here in my “hole in the woods” I can’t even see her house and the “black cloud” isn’t so bad. It was TERRIBLE there for a while.’

Also even now, if I have to go up by her house to take care of an animal or fix a fence or whatever it is uncomfortable but not triggering, the last time we did she came out on her driveway and stood watching to see what we were doing. Just standing there and I felt like she was a vulture there.

I realize too, that NO CONTACT is the ultimate pain for them, it is the taking away their ability to control us, to manipulate us and I realize that she is “suffering” from lack of control, lack of information and so on. Her e mailing me a couple of weeks ago about the portrait drawing of my husband was an attempt to get information….and I FELL FOR IT HOOK LINE AND SINKER—LOL but I sent the drawing to my husband’s grandson who was THRILLED at having the picture of his grandfather and so there was some good came out of the thing after all and I LEARNED A NEW AND VALUABLE LESSON…I will NOT let her trick/hook me again in the future no matter what. If I HAVE TO have contact with her because of business—AND ONLY BUSINESS—I will do so, but NOTHING ELSE. No matter how tempting it is.

LOL ROTFLMAO, yep, she “got me” there on that one, used the ONLY bait she had which was pretty good actually, but next time it won’t matter if she has a PERSONALLY AUTOGRAPHED PHOTO OF GOD, I ain’t biting on it! LOL (head shaking here) Every time I get to thinking I’m “100% safe” from the psychopathic con jobs, I get another lesson that says “DON’T GET COCKY, OXY, THEY ARE STILL TRICKY!”

Stargazer

I don’t know how you manage to do it, Oxy. I’d rather be hung upside down by my toenails and pummeled with a wet carp than live that close to my mother. LOL And a moment of sadness that we should have to protect ourselives like this from our mothers. It’s just so wrong and it’s sad that it has to be this way.

But you know, I’ve been giving it some thought, what you said. It could actually be kind of entertaining to watch the neighbor boy squirm this summer when he sees me. After all, it’s spring now. I have my door open all the time and can see his patio right through my screen door. If he wants to avoid me, he will never be able to sit out on his patio or even open his blinds. Ever. LOL And it will be fun watching him turn away and pretend he’s busy every time I go out to the pool. Even better, I’ll be working out, gettining tan and looking good, and he won’t be able to talk to me because it will be too uncomfortable for him after ignoring me for 3 months. On second thought, this could be kinda fun! ha ha ha

It’s so beautiful here in the spring. I have a pond right outside my patio. There is a pair of mallard ducks that nest there every spring. They come right up to my patio and say hello. They are not the least bit afraid. It is so adorable. And I’m doing my spring cleaning and shopping. Spring is always so good for my spirits. That’s why I’d prefer to live in a place that’s like this all year round. Costa Rica is on the hot side. But there are places in Ecuador that are in the 70’s and 80’s all year round. My mood really changes with the seasons.

HurtTerribly

Sometimes it feels as if there’s no way out on the no contact. Im in business with him and even though he resides halfway across the world, Im stuck. And…….he always, always tries to turn it personal.

It in a word sucks. Because in truth, Im far enough along where no contact as in he’s in a jail cell and Im free would be a good start.

But, Im not in that situation. Every time I hear him, every fiber in my being is torn and twisted and hurt. There are days when we are in meetings with 10 other people and I cant get up the next day, because my body takes such a beating from the sound of his voice.

I guess, if you have to maintain contact in a no fly zone, you either have to be made of steel, or begin a long term goal to get that person out of your orbit. Im financially beholden. Thats even worse, that means that every penny that drips from him to me feels coated in treachery and yet, I have to feed my child and keep the roof over our head, and until I can get my head around that and bring in more income, Im stuck.

I sure could use some advice about this, I’ve read and re-read this post on no contact a thousand times.

I once dreamed to be free. I prayed to God and the Universe to be free, to walk in the sunshine of a day that belonged to me that wasn’t haunted, painful, and where I am continually running to stay alive.

The universe, God, heard me. The day came where the opportunity presented itself for me to very carefully plan my exit. I kept my ear to the ground, stayed silent, slept with a dresser against my door every night till the day came to get him on that airplane. He did horrible things to me during that two weeks, unspeakable horrible things, and I knew I could smell that freedom, but I knew what I had to do and did it. I felt grace for the first time in 11 years.

Im tired and I want to come home, there is no home. I am newborn and dying all at once. When I walk its a strange gait, where one step feels totally out of sync with the next.

Its like its still not done yet. No contact. Do you know what that is? Its the final step to freedom.

Ox Drover

Dear Hurt terribly,

I hear your pain lady! I definitely do that….and yes, no contact is freedom.

I unfortunately must live close (0n the same large farm) as my egg donor who was one of the ones who persecuted me, and my land/home is tied up in the same farm and I can’t sell it until after she passes away…so I too am financially HOOKED to the very ones who abused me….but I did leave once and I determined I would live in a CARDBOARD BOX before I would give in and if I decide I MUST then I will leave here, and leave behind my home and everything I have financially sunk into it.

I thought I couldn’t live without my home, but I realized that it is simply bricks and wood, it is not “home” —home is where I am peaceful and content and safe.

I’m glad you are here at love fraud HurtTerribly, I am sorry you have a need for support and healing, but it is HERE. Read the articles in the archives, educate yourself on them, and on healing, and put one foot in front of another until you are solidly on the ROAD to healing.

At first when the pain is so acute and we are so raw we don’t see things the same way we do a few days down the road….but you will. Keep NC as much as you can, and realize that YOU have control over your feelings and your emotions, you do NOT have to let them have that control! (((HUGS)))

Ox Drover

DEar Super kid,

The “egg donor” is my biological mother—I used to call her “mama” but you know the TITLE MAMA or MOTHER I think is EARNED by more than DNA donation, it is earned by love and caring and nurturing the child, and I think she hasn’t earned the title and so I just refer to her as the “egg donor” along with my P-sperm donor—LOL

Superkid, there are 700+ articles here about the answers to your questions….all I can suggest rather than trying to re-answer them is READ and learn, and learn some more. Go to the archives and start with the articles under the “Categories” HEALING FROM A SOCIOPATH and read every article and then go to the next category and read and learn. Knowledge is power and the only way we can get our power back is to LEARN about them and learn about OURSELVES.

Each of us has to answer our own WHYS…and come to our own BLOCKING THEM AND NC and it takes TIME and introspection. You can do it….I’m glad that my ramblings have helped you and I’ll be hanging around here. I learn new things every day, this learning and healing is not a place you say “Well, I am healed I know it all now” because each day we learn more, we grow stronger and wiser and so we just keep on marching toward peace and calm and happiness. It is a JOURNEY! Not a destination! (((hugs)))

superkid10

Oxy, thanks. I am definitely reading as much as I can. I am not finding anything about people who are enablers. Perhaps it’s buried. I will pursue. This is such a godsend.

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