Editor’s note: On April 15, 2009, we posted “Bob’s” story—Leaning on his family while battling his wife. Well, the battle continues. Bob is asking the Lovefraud community for suggestions.
I recently received the email below from my P ex-wife and wanted to share it with your readers. I would like someone to analyze this to get some insight and commentary on this situation. It is so reminiscent of what I have read on Lovefraud.com and in books and comes really without surprise; it just surprises me of the lengths she will go to try to falsely trash me in an effort to obtain custody of our kids. The allegations are either fabricated or extremely exaggerated. She has a knack for manipulating people to write letters for her and support her. She has no fear of me and really no fear that I will endanger our kids; she knows I would never hurt them. This is all blowing smoke, but there is motive.
A quick background: Post-divorce with joint custody, she moved out of state to be with her lover and took me to court to move the kids with her. Her motion was denied and the kids still live with me in my state during the school year, but she moved regardless. Her child support to me was tripled by the court order, and that has angered her. She lies to my kids about the circumstances of her move and casts blame at me for us being so far apart geographically.
During the custodial evaluation, up to the hearing and after the order was handed down she has been on a vigorous campaign to portray me as angry and hostile towards her. Apparently this is the only way she could convince the courts to give her custody. She stopped paying me for children’s expenses after the court order was received, attempting to elicit angry emails from me. That was over a year ago and this continues to this day, even after I took her to court this year to force payment of children’s expenses. After that court order, she still refuses to pay me what is legitimately owed. She is very angry and vindictive, but she conceals it from others very well.
Note, I have been to her home on only three occasions to drop off or pick up my kids and she lives over 1,000 miles from me. She travels to my state with regularity to pick up and drop off the kids at my home without any fear of me. The characterizations of me”—hostile, angry, vindictive, inconsistent, unbalanced, unstable, threatening, harassing, bi-polar—”are a common theme in her emails.
Bob:
I have just returned from a meeting with local law enforcement. I met with them because I fear for my safety and the safety of our children. Your actions, writings and overall demeanor are unstable, inconsistent, vindictive, and threatening.
During this discussion, I shared the following:
1) Our guidance from the Court.
2) years of correspondence between Bob and me, highlighting particularly the exchanges that were most hostile, threatening and vindictive.
3) A tape of Bob’s wire tapping of my phone while I lived in (city removed).
4) Several documents that prove Bob’s attempts to hack into my bank accounts, my AT&T account, my email account and one credit card account.
5) Data I have collected through Bob’s emails of him stalking me, including one today where he has details of my flight information that I did not provide to him. There are several other emails that confirm this pattern of behavior.
6) A written statement from the Summer Camp employee that he interrogated in August, complete with her statement that he appeared unstable and made her uncomfortable. She also confirms that he explicitly told her that he had sole custody of the children and that I was not allowed to make the decision I had made when enrolling him in his summer activities.
7) Evidence suggesting Bob’s taping of the children’s and my conversations.
I agreed that I would follow up this information with an opinion from my therapist, since she has been privy to the daily deluge of drama and interactions and has formed some opinions, based upon what she has read.
The officer confirms that there are red flags in this situation that do not need to be ignored. His suggestion is that I state first my concerns in writing directly to you. I am once again asking you to stop this harassment and contemptible behavior immediately. If you continue, I will have no choice but to proceed with the process of highlighting these situations and writings to the proper authorities and to seek protection for myself and our children.
This is not a threat and these are not games. Your anger, vindictiveness, and nonacceptance of the rules we were given have resulted in harassing and predatory behaviors which are at a minimum, disturbing and at the extreme, dangerous.
Our community saw a triple murder within the last two months at the hand of their father, a white-collar banking manager. The background and circumstances of this heinous crime were eerily similar to our past two years. I will no longer take the chances of what your volatility, instability or hostility might lead to.
Angie
AKA Bob,
Arguing with your ex via email is useless. She will never do what she is supposed to do, she won’t follow the court ordered plan and she doesn’t care about the welfare of the children.
I recommend that you document what happens in your records or journals, and don’t even bother bringing the issues up with her. Present your information to the court if you go to have the orders changed.
Other posters have offered valuable advice. Understand that her objective is to torment you, and she uses the kids to do it. Do not respond.
Matt, I agree with you- especially on 2 points. People who file false claims of sexual abuse of the children should be shot. When it’s true, people just want to point to examples of false allegations by vindictive x’s. It dilutes the truth and credibility of the real victims. Lemme tell you, life would be SO much easier if it weren’t true. My poor daughter was doing so well- but for whatever reason or trigger, is off doing things that are out of character at best. I’m worried sick about her. I have him to thank for that. I’d like to shoot him AND the liars…I digress. Sorry. The other point is that maybe she didn’t even go to the police, made the WHOLE thing up. I thought that too and I think it’s totally possible. Their words have no value.
Aw man, Bob, don’t bother trying to talk to her…you’re only banging your head against a wall. What’s that phrase about wrestling with a pig? Oxy, you know this one…it annoys the pig and makes you smell or something like that.
Put the energy you use to struggle with her for damage control for the kids. You know when they get home, that it’s been Disneyville- try to find some coping strategies to make the kid’s transition back to reality less harsh. If you need to, talk to their teachers and let them know that homework is not a priority for your x and it’s likely it won’t be complete upon their return- ask if you can get a day or 2 reprieve after “mom” visits. Most teachers are human beings- don’t BASH the x, just explain that historically, despite pleas from you, homework doesn’t get done with “mom.” I had this talk with more than one teacher over the years. The first day or so after my daughter had been with her “dad” was deprogramming.
Who. What. When. Where. That’s all you need when dealing with Angie. (Love the irony that her name is Angela. Angel- HA. Oy.) NO emotion, just the facts. I like the idea of certified- just make sure it’s totally vanilla, boring, emotionless certified. If you wouldn’t read it in a meeting with the big wigs at work, don’t send it.
Remember- disordered types feed off the emotion you give them. She’s getting wayyyyy too much from you. I know it’s hard, but just because she says it, doesn’t mean it’s true or that you HAVE to respond. You don’t. Don’t feed the beast.
Dear Bob,
I’ve been trying to post but due to a storm have had horrible AT&T internet connection on my air card—Donna is right, there is NO use arguing with her via e mail or any other way, she is getting her GOAL every time she piths you off.
She is usiing your kids a a club to pound you over the head, no matter how it splinters and destroys the kids. Talking with the teacher (without bashing) might help your cause. I think that most teachers who ohave a MAN raising his kids pretty well will accept that “mommie dearest” isn’t the best of moms or the kids wouldn’t be living with dad! (yes, gang, that is a “sexist” statement, but none-the-less it is a true statement) LOL If the teacher truly has the welfare of the kids at heart, I suggest that he/she will give your kid some breaks.
The de-programming is also a given. I would also, if you can, do NOTHING to encourage visitation. Stick to the LETTER of the agreement but do not give one INCH on pick up or drop off. Make it as INCONVENIENT as possible for her.
If she loses clothes, keeps the kids up late, or whatever she does, unless it is LIFE THREATEBNING I would not in any way confront her, and then do it through the lawyers or courts.
I would cut conversation to a MINIMUM and one word answers at that. If it is legal, tape record every word between you. Keep but do not respond to text messages or e mails.
You are UNDER ATTACK and the weapons she is using are your kids. Don’t fraternize with the enemy in any way. “Loose lips sink ships”–write down or record any negative infromation in a journal and keep records of what your kids say about their visits. But I would NOT pump them, that is what she is doing to them to get information about you, I would bet the farm! Ask the teacher to let you know if “Johnny” falls asleep in class or has any behavior problems the day after the return from “Mommie dearest’s” house.
Good luck, Bob! God bless you, your wife and your children.
Bob,
You are looking for a healthy co parenting relationship. You will not get that!
I agree with all the advice above…..
NO contact. no expectations, with no contact comes NO ARGUING, no point making, no amunition offered!
What’s the point….are you trying to talk her into seeing it the way you do? If you could, you would still be together!
Do not ever rely on your girlfriend to do any of your parenting or any deals with the ex. Pick up/drop off
Do not ever ask your children anything about the ex.
When they visit, just welcome them back with a happy, all about them attitude….if they want to share they will, if they don’t they won’t…..but if you push in either direction….you will shut them down. Allow them to feel loved by both….in their own time, they will figure it all out on thier own……
One of my kids last night, told me their memories of their childhood was all bad.
I went to great lengths to be there ALL the time, subconsciesly protecting them from the ex…we traveled the world, always did weekly outings, ate dinner (kids and I) together, was involved in the schools, sports etc….BUT, the little time this child spent with his father was the only thing they remember….and focus on……the pain rises above any pleasure…..we do the same.
They talked about how different dad was when i was around and when they were with him they told me MORE things I didnt know…..like pulling the pants down in the first grade class or in the middle of the grocery store and spankings in public, bare butt, how he showed kisses and hugs in front of me, but lived to embarrass them in public. they shared with me the joy he got in humiliating them. I listened, and validated their feelings. That’s it. THEY KNOW THE TRUTH, they don’t need to hear it from me what an asshole their father is! They probably know more than me……
We talked aobut all the fun things we did, our memories of fun, games, silly songs, air races, all our traditions, easter, road trips, inside jokes….I told them how important it is to remember to good times and not choose to focus on 1/8 of their life that was not pleasant, when they only remembered punishment and abuse, because once they started talking about our fun times….it flowed and flowed and they were amazed at all they had buried….by choice!
This is not to minimize their reality……but show them they have choices……
We all do…..
Keep encouraging your kids…..and recite the serenity prayer as many times as you need it!!!
Good luck.
Wow Erin, your kids are so lucky to have you.
I would have broken down and cried.
Erin, I too, am in awe of your parental clarity. Thanks for shining a light into the how to’s of parenting through turbulant times.
AKA Bob… What can I say? The experts have spoken. Know this, with every letter you wrote, I get it. And, from my limited perspective, may I say… I don’t agree with the assessment you were delt.
As much as you desire to co-parent in a rational and reasonable manner, my dear, it ain’t going to happen. It’s taken me 4.5 years to wrap my brain around this concept. Especially hard is the fact that I’m accused of parental alienation, and yet, have been published on my suggestive “Rules of Engagement for Divorced or Seperating Parents” through the very court system that I’m being accused. It’s mind boggling. I advocate children having equal access, unlimited, to both parents. I longed for my father, who was totally absent, my entire life, except for two brief period, where there were tears, and promises made, then abandonment, all over again. I GET it!!
I preach to my kids that even though their father isn’t 100% right, he is their ONLY father, and as such…even if they only experience 1% of enjoyable experiences with him, that 1% is worth it.
Our oldest daughter yelled at me, yesterday…”Mom! I know! OK? I don’t need to hear it twice a week that I can call my Dad anytime I want, without asking! I don’t want to call him. I’m sick of him. I hate him.” (He’s told her, outright…since she no longer is leagally obligated to go with him, but does so to protect her siblings…Why do you go with us? We have more fun without you.. etc.) He is an A*s, but even still, in her 15 year old mind, there hope he will remember he loves her, and since he no longer can use her to accuse me… she is now his target, as I went NC. And, he needs a target.
The court appointed attorney for the kids, who I’ve talked to for 10 minutes max in the past 4.5 years…has his mind made up that I’m alienating the kids from their father. I find it ironic that their father has had more face time with the KID’S attorney then the kid’s have had. And, I’ve mentioned this in enough correspondence to protect myself, and the kids should things turn more sour. He is supposed to represent the kid’s, only; not their father, yet… the S’s have a way of breaching boundaries, and finding loopholes.. so beware…
Rational, effective, influential co-parenting is NOT OPTIONAL. The sooner you wrap your mind around this, the clearer you will become in your efforts. If you are expending this much energy to educate the co-parent, then you are digging your own litigation grave. STOP IT!
As harsh as this sounds, my dear… I with someone had tough loved me into realizing no matter what I desire to be, the S will pollute it. Period. End of story. So now what?
Learn, head the wisdom bestowed upon you… survive.
Then learn how to live again.
Just to give more perspective on how bad this has gotten, and to provide a little more background:
My P moved to the state where I live in 2004. She sought a job transfer in old state, claiming the company would IPO, be spun-off or sold and that she would lose her job. She was actually part of an elite leadership team to turn the company around. She was right about the direction of the company, but she was not in danger of losing her job. She moved to this state ahead of me to start work while I stayed in old state to keep boys in school and sell house. I now understand the real reason for the job transfer was so her co-workers’ and our community would not find out about her affair with a co-worker. At that time, I was under her control, so I kept it quiet except from my closest friends. I now understand that she sought out the move to get me away from my support base and to keep me off balance as we moved towards divorce. It was all about controlling me.
During the five months I was back in the old state with the boys alone, I had suspicions that she was having another affair in the new state. Before me and boys moved to new state, I made a house hunting visit. I didn’t want to buy a house given our marital turmoil, but she convinced me since her company was paying relocation and closing costs. I thought it best to rent until we figured out whether or not to stay married. I gave in. We found a house, but it needed extensive landscaping. The day we saw the house I flew back to old state. She went back to house after I left with a “landscaper someone referred to her from work”. She decided she wanted the house. The landscaper began work before closing (vacant) and we closed 1+ months before I moved to new state. After closing, landscaper/handyman and P spent much time alone at the house pulling carpet and staples, hiring painter and other busy work. I was suspecting something.
Boys and I finally move to new state. Landscaper is hanging around at house frequently, but we hadn’t moved in yet because we were waiting on carpeting (living in temp corporate apartment). P and I agreed to separate. She has landscaper help me move into an apartment. Agreeing to move to new state, then to move out, two of my all-time biggest mistakes. I do investigating and determine that P and landscaper having affair. I saw an attorney that day who recommended I cancel my lease and move back in (I didn’t take his advice). Same day I called P at work and advised of evidence of affair. It was now in the open. At that point I still felt I could reconcile our marriage. She had emasculated me for many years, I hadn’t worked in three years, and I was bit scared to be on my own. She blamed me for our maritial problems, cited that reason that I wasn’t working. A month later I discovered that P and landscaper made travel arrangements together (see letter below). I was teetering on whether or not to accept that my marriage was over.
While living in our new state, P made very few friends, mostly men she met while dating online. One close, divorce w/ kids girlfriend made it a habit to date wealthy men, and move in with them. This friend also motioned the court to move her children away from their father. Same judge as us, order denied. P stayed close with landscaper, although began dating a childhood friend, in the state she lives in now.
Fast forward I after I retained “majority” custody (children ordered not to move with P).
P and I continually at odds over parenting time, parenting styles, children’s finances, etc. requiring interventions from court appointed parenting consultant. P constantly attempting to violate court order, and me seeking parenting to consultant’s intervention. The parenting consultant requires the P to propose her quarterly visitation schedule, which needs to be within the parameters of the court order (FYI, she is ordered to pay almost all transportation costs to and from her new state). She does keep up a pretty grueling travel schedule, but I don’t believe it is for the children, but rather to give the appearance of the doting mom (we call her the Christmas Card Mom ”“ leaves them to me to raise but dresses them for Christmas card for appearances sake).
Within the past few months we have been battling over her visitation and plans to fly kids to her new state (3.5-4 hours each way, plus additional 1+ hour on plane per flight due to unaccompanied minor standards). Her plan to fly them on four occassions within 10 weeks was unreasonable, even though the court order allowed for it. I presented my arguments to the parenting consultant (who legal authority to change parenting time if in the kids best interests). He is not real timely in issuing directives. I was arguing that this weeks’ visit to my state that the children should trick-or-treat with their friends (I historically took them out on Halloween). She had made plans to take the kids to a waterpark four hours from my home with the landscaper and his kids. Note, this weekend’s visit is not with her “legal” parenting time, although court order is not tight and somewhat vague.
Two nights ago the parenting consulting ruled that P must stay in town with kids and take them out locally on Halloween (I sought this out because it was not fair to deprive my 8 y/o the trick or treating tradition). He also ruled that P’s plans to fly the kids to her state in two weeks that she could only visit them in my state for that long weekend.
At 1:00 am I received the following email from the landscaper:
Bob,
I sit here tonight having already had the conversations with both of my children telling them “why” they are unable to go, AS PLANNED, to the waterpark this weekend. I’ll spare you their comments as I know you’re entirely unable to process the comments of a child.
I will take this moment to share this with you. It’s been a long time coming and I was always hoping to avoid it.
Do you remeber the day that you “confronted” me in the front yard of (P’s address) when you learned, through your devious stalking/searching, that Angie and I had planned a trip to Vail? When you stood there, in my face, confronting me about that trip, I fully expected you to take a swing at me. I would have let you. A real man would have. Back then, I felt that you were entitled. Why you didn’t, I don’t know but I reasoned that I should be proud of you for not punching me. I felt that you knew the big picture and knew that an action like that one wouldn’t help in the big picture.
Now, however, I know the truth. Now I know that you’re just plain too spineless to ever confront someone your own size. You’re much too comfortable screwing with children, with ex wives, with anyone you can bully at no risk to yourself. What you don’t know, in that pea-sized brain of yours, is that you’re the only one that will ultimately lose. Your boys don’t see trick-or-treating as a “win” for them. They don’t see you screwing with Angie now many years after you should have been long over that crap as anything other than pathetic behavior. Even my kids can see it. And worst of all, you accept Sheri’s decisions over those of yourself. Once again, you’re allowing yourself to wallow into the mud while someone else takes care of your business.
I used to think you were smarter than you were letting on. I used to think, and in fact said to Angie, “he’s crazy like a fox.” I got yelled at many times for sticking up for you. Now I know it was all crap. You’re a pathetic, lazy, wuss of a man. I used to think that you had a long way to go to recover and become a man that could be a symbol of strength for your boys. I used to pray that you would become that man FOR THEM. Now, I not longer pray for you. Now, I pray that other, stronger men will have the chance to provide Angie’s boys the role modeling they will so desparately need to become well adjusted men.
You’ve blown it. You’re beyond any prayer now. You remember the day you said to me “Dave, I like you, I don’t really care what you do for a living, I mean, you’re not what Angie is used to but I like you.” “Just don’t try to be a father to my boys.” Well, now I’ll have to because they need one.
Good luck to you ever finding a way to move on.
Dave
Not sure about you, but this wreaks of parental alienation. I have shared this with parenting consultant and the therapists involved. My P manipulates her supporters to do her dirty work. They only know her side of the story, although the Landscaper has been around for years thoughout this drama, he sees her as victim and me as perpetrator. Couldn’t be further from the reality.
I visit the police yesterday, but the office said it was not enough for harassment on consider a threat, just an opinion. I have asked the parenting consultant before and am asking again that my kid do not spend time with the landscaper (P and stay at his home frequently). Parenting consultant has not responded.
Comments??
I know I am getting long winded here, but I just located a letter I drafted to the Landscaper but did not send. At this point (3.5 months after discovering affair), realizing my marriage was over, I began the pursuit of online dating in this new town solely for socialization (no local friends or family, I wasn’t working and now living in an apartment). On my very first date, we discovered that my date had been out with the landscaper two weeks prior. He bragged to her about his new landscaping job for a corporate executive woman with lots of $$ who had just moved here and bought a house in an exclusive neighborhood, and that she got him multiple new jobs at other neighbors there (one being the local, major university’s college football head coach, who I subsequently found out thru P is a wifebeater). She wanted to see landscaper again, but he said he had work in another town (he was actually with my P). Shortly after that, I met another woman online who had been in recent contact with the landscaper. My letter was drafted after I advised my P that her landscaper was cheating on her, and sent me an email on Match.com. Looking out for the protection of my children, I drafted this letter, but did not send it……
Dave,
I felt compelled to respond to your email (and by the way, your email to me and Match profile had typos, so give the judgments and advice a rest). I wanted to make some things very clear.
The sole reason for my interceding in your illicit relationship with my wife is for the protection of my children, and their mother, for whom I still care for her well being. If she feels it a necessity to continue her co-dependence on another man while still married, that man should at least be one who is sincere enough not to be chasing other women online while sleeping with her, professing his love for her and expressing his desire to be with her for life. A man with enough integrity to stay clear of our boys until a final decision and outcome to our marriage is resolved.
For my wife, still married and with 3 young boys, to go out blindly on the internet and seek out a complete male stranger for companionship while her husband and children are living in another state, in the midst of a troubled marriage, was dangerous, purely bad judgment and self-centered on her part. Regardless of where Angie told you our marriage stood, for you to entertain that relationship, escalate it to a full blown love affair in the view of young, impressionable children, and to be screwing her in “our” house when our boys were present, was irresponsible, self-centered, and inappropriate and shows a lack of integrity on your part. And for the two of you to flaunt that relationship in my face, and in full few of our nanny and neighbors, was and continues to be classless, in poor taste and judgment, and downright cruel and insensitive to the father of her children. Frankly, I can care less if you and Angie continue your love affair. I just demand that if it does continue, you take the children out of the equation.
Further, you are in no position to suggest how I should live my life, raise my children, or with who of Angie’s friends and family I should interact. These are Angie’s and my issues and don’t involve you in any way, shape or form, so I suggest you keep your nose out of it. You don’t know Angie the way I know her and have known her. She is changed from what I have known, and is currently self-destructive in her behavior. This is evident by her refusal to acknowledge that any of hers and your actions might have been or be detrimental to our children and family in the slightest way.
You have attempted to give me advice on fatherhood and how to handle my children. You have insisted that you are not trying to replace me, and that you would never attempt to do that. Yet, it appears that you take every opportunity to try to establish a bond with my children, taking them boating, telling them you love them, bringing them to your home, offering to baby sit them, etc. Just do your work and stay away from my boys. They are having a difficult enough time with this separation; they do not need to be forming attachments with other men who will likely exit their lives. For Angie to bring you around the boys when we are separated is just wrong and in her continual pattern of bad judgment.
The discovery of your online pursuit of other women was purely coincidental, and not part of a mission, as you suggest. You have done this to yourself. I find it staggering that, of a small handful of women in our area with whom I have spoken; you have pursued 2 of them online while continuing to sleep with my still-married wife. Pretty staggering statistics, which just evidences your insincerity towards my wife. I felt Angie had a right to know what kind of man she is confiding in, opening our house to, spending her family’s money on, and exposing our children to.
And finally, I am fully aware of and in touch with my state of being. I have done nothing but support Angie’s career from day one. I raised our boys while still working and thereafter and forwent any dreams I might have had so that Angie could pursue her goals and dreams. I have integrity, am sincere, unselfish, loyal and honest, and have been nothing but a fabulous father to our boys while Angie has pursued fame and fortune, cast me aside, and turned to other men when our relationship wasn’t perfect. My wife has done some terrible things to me over the course of 1 ½ years. It is amazing what the discovery of a cheating spouse will do to a person. But you are not in a place to be making suggestions as to what I should be doing with my life, as you have had your regressions. I will figure that one out on my own, thank you.
Try not to be too cynical, smarmy and sarcastic when you encounter me. It is not your most endearing virtue. I will not tolerate any nonsense or disrespect. In short, you are to stay away from my boys at all times. I hope my message is clear.
Bob
Bob,
I am not a parent, so I can only imagine how frustrating it is to send your kids off to be with these sleazy people. However, you are trying to reason with them as though they were rational. It won’t work. You will not win. This guy is sleeping with a married woman and cheating with others. Do you think he cares about his morals? Do you think he will change for the sake of your kids? It will never happen. I agree with what has been said above. Unless there are life-endangering things going on when your kids are over there, you cannot control what they do, when the kids go to bed, etc. These are not rational people you are dealing with. The best you can do is to document everything. I know this must be hard, but I think it’s best to avoid the temptation to fight and argue with your ex or her boyfriends or to badmouth her in front of the kids. I think you need to stop engaging with these people and focus on what happens with your children when they are with you. Eventually, they will figure out what she is. You can ask them ahead of time what homework they have for the weekend and let them know your expectation that they get it done. Obviously, your ex isn’t going to do participate in this. I don’t know if the homework stuff is in violation of her visitation rights? If it is, you will have documentation. If it isn’t, there is nothing you can do.
I also wanted to add that it sounds like they are conducting a smear campaign and trying to make you look like the bad guy. We believe you here, and we know who the real bad guys are! We know what sociopaths are like. You can always come here for validation. But it’s best to have as little contact with them as possible!