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LETTERS TO LOVERAUD: I will work on whom not to trust or love

Editor’s note: Here is Part 2 of yesterday’s article, “Almost everything under the sun happened to me, and I’m fine,” written by a reader who posts as “Jen.”

Okay, so I had a crappy childhood, but I survived it. I came out of it okay. I have had what I now think might have been sociopaths in my life from time to time as friends, lovers, or family. At the time, I had no clue what they were, but I did know they were screwed up. I quickly rid parasites from my life after I figured out they were just out to use people. I was strong, and I was no way going to be surrounded by meanness.

So, 2 years after my divorce, I ran into an ex from 20 years prior. I was down in the dumps when I met him again. I had lost my wonderful job and my big fat paycheck. I had plans and dreams that were about to come true. Everything came crashing down on me, and I moved back to my hometown. (Stupid economy!) I got a small apartment for my kids, my golden retriever, and I. I was getting unemployment, but we were barely scraping by. I decided to suck up my pride and go see if the state would help me out with food stamps. I was humiliated, as I do not like taking anything from anyone.

This is where I ran into him, again. At the food stamp office. I should have known better. We started talking, and he said he was just trying to get back on his feet from his break up with his ex. He told me he had done some pretty amazing stuff in the years (now I think it was all bs), and I told him some of my experiences. I also told him I was writing a book, and he said he was doing the same. I sucked up my shyness and I gave him my number. He looked different, cleaner, and more mature than I remembered him. He was also very good looking. How could I judge him? I was getting food stamps myself!

He called a couple of days later, and said he wanted to hang out. He sounded embarrassed when he told me he was broke. I said it was okay, and we could hang out at my place. We got along great! He said he had quit drinking (he drank a lot when we were younger), and at that point in his life he only had a beer here and there. That was fine with me as I wasn’t much of a drinker. He worked, and he exercised all the time. He told me everything I wanted to hear. Maybe, at that time, he wasn’t lying, but it was short lived.

Into the trap

I fell into his trap. I was sucked in and lost. He would tell me how wonderful I was, and how much he loved me. I was rather curious as to why he never had any money to his name (not even a dollar). He was supposed to be working, and he lived with his mom (just staying there for a few months to get on his feet, again). He told me he had to help his mom out, since she was having a hard time with money. He had a car sitting in her driveway, but it was broken. I wondered why he couldn’t get it fixed. I blew these questions off in my mind. I was trying to be understanding, since life had just kicked me in the butt.

Finally, I said that I loved him back. It was right before he was going out of town with his father for Thanksgiving. When he came back he seemed different. He was colder and not as considerate of me anymore. His family suddenly started talking about his ex nonstop. He never said anything about her, and he looked uncomfortable. I guess he would get into huge fights with them over her, but they didn’t care or respect his wishes to keep her out of his and my lives. It was really weird, and I was uncomfortable.

My boyfriend, whom I was beginning to fall head over heals for, suddenly started drinking a lot. He lost his job, and was completely broke, still living at mom’s. I figured it was the stress from being broke, unemployed, and 41 living at his mom’s house. I felt terrible for this ‘poor’ soul. I wanted to help, but I didn’t have much money, either. I was starting my old company back up that my father had left barely running, as a division of his company, while I lived out of state. It was a moneymaker, but his current employees ran it into the ground. So, I was scraping by, as it was. I had my boyfriend work with me a few times, and I paid him very well. He just seemed to spend his money on beer and give it to his mother. He told me how he was depressed, and needed a full time job. I found him jobs left and right, but now I think he didn’t even call. (I was blind at the time.)

Apartment

Finally, I felt like I should do something to really help this guy. I told myself we all need a little help once in a while in life, and I could help him. I asked my brother to hire him on full time with his company. I fixed his car myself. I also got it insured and registered. My lease on my apartment was up, and I asked him if he wanted to get a place with me. He said yes.

He had me rent this beautiful townhouse with a lovely yard for my dog. Then the day before we were due to move in, he tells me he doesn’t think he is ready for a relationship. I had paid them all their money, and just signed a year’s lease, in my name only. I knew I couldn’t afford the rent on my own. I don’t even think I could speak when he told me that. The next day, he changed his tune, but he only moved in some of his clothes. I complained that he wasn’t really living there after a few weeks of him not really having any of his stuff there. So, he went to his mom’s and grabbed two things to hang on the wall. Gee…

Life was hell. He was mean to me, every day. Up and down and I didn’t know what to do. I couldn’t figure out what happened to the man I fell in love with. He started going to his mom’s every day after work, and he would spend at least two nights a week there. He complained that he didn’t want to pay rent, because ‘he deserved a Harley’ to ride. His drinking was getting out of control, as was his behavior. I was just turning into a puddle. Nothing I said or did made anything better. In fact, it only seemed to get worse. He seemed intelligent before, and now there was no logic or reason with him at all.

Ex-girlfriend

The ex-girlfriend was becoming a never-ending problem, as well. His sister decided to be best friends with her, after she said such cruel things about this woman. I found out his ex was trying to get him back, and his family was pushing him towards it. He really didn’t want her, but I didn’t know this at the time as he rarely spoke of her. They liked her better than me. She partied, did coke, and paid for all their partying. She was a nurse and made a lot of money (so they said). They said she would be rich someday. Also, she is a Navajo Indian, and he is a Sioux. I am white. They are racist. Big problem that I was unaware of.

It was all just drama that I was not used to. I was shocked by the things these people did and said. I had no clue at the time that his mom and sister were narcissists, but I did know his brother and nephew were psychopaths (the scary criminal kind). The things I’ve seen these people do is unbelievable, and it would take me 100 pages just to summarize it.

Needless to say, he moved out after 2 1/2 months, and I got stuck with rent I couldn’t afford. He got drunk and lost his job with my brother after 3 months of working there. I think it was the last straw for me. I was shattered. It was a horrible year!

Depression

I fell into a short and temporary deep depression. I am sure I wasn’t the best of mothers, walking around in a daze. I don’t remember much, and I don’t know why. My teenage son picked up some of the slack for me with my daughter. He could see something was wrong, but he didn’t know what. I remember wanting nothing more than to die. I wanted to kill myself, and it was all I could think of. I told my boyfriend something was wrong, and I was worried because I was having thoughts of suicide. He didn’t care. I asked my mom for help, and told her what I was feeling. I knew at that time that my brain was just reacting to being under too much stress for too long. I knew I needed help. No one cared or was there. I couldn’t afford therapy. The mental abuse and money situation was just weighing on me too much, and I finally broke all the way. It had gone on for too long.

The day I had picked to be the end of me came. I had plenty of life insurance for my kids, and I couldn’t see how I was any benefit to anyone. I felt like a failure in every way.

I was going to go to the mountains by myself, and I would make it look like an accident. I had it all planned out, and I looked forward to it. Then the sweetest little face came bouncing at me, and said, “Mommy, I love you. Where are you going? Can I come?” I woke up in that instant.

I felt so guilty and awful for what I was about to do. How could I leave this innocent sweet child without any parents? She loved me so, and I was being horrible and selfish in my way of thinking. How could I do that to my son as well? It would have crushed their little souls. Besides, I am the girl who has always loved life. My only fear is death. After we die, how will we hold hands, or give our babies a kiss and hugs? I like the physical aspects of love and life, so how could I be willing to leave this?

Growing stronger

I grew angry as my eyes started to open. How was it possible to twist me around so bad inside? He was just one man, and I grew up around people like him. His family reminded me of my father’s family (which I was sheltered from, for the most part). I knew better. I tried to leave him then, but I think I was still weak. This man was 41, drunk, refused to work, and living with his mother! Ewwww! AND yet, he still sucked me in, again! I felt sorry for him. How pathetic?

I did grow much stronger and rather quickly. His lies and mean stuff he pulled weren’t working anymore. He seemed more frustrated, and he got meaner. I would dump him, and he would come back. Or I would dump him, and then feel so horrible inside that I went back to him. I thought I loved him, but I know love is a two way street. It wasn’t love, but some sick twisted need. He created that need in me, but it was up to me to get rid of it.

My resentment grew and grew, until about the last month or so. Then my love started being replaced by disgust. I started to see him for what he was—stupid, boring, pathetic, and a leech. I had no respect for him. A small piece of me felt bad and loved him still, but I knew it was the beginning of the end that I looked forward to.

Breaking free

I knew I had to emotionally break free while I was with him. Otherwise, I would have forgotten the bad (like I like to do) and only remembered the good in him. I would have never been able to be free. I know me, and I know there are only 2 surefire ways to make me turn my feelings off like a lightning bolt. The first is to do or say mean things to my children, and the second is to hit me. He has never done either of these.

Well, he must have sensed my planned escape from him. He suddenly got very nice and sweet again, but I waited. I knew he’d do something horribly cruel to me in no time at all. Besides, I just had to tell myself that he is now a 42-year-old man, who lives with his mother and brother, refuses to work, and never does anything for anyone. Valentine’s Day was coming, and he has never gotten me a gift for anything, ever. He spent all of his money on beer last Saturday, and then he promptly started an insane fight over nothing. He dumped me for Valentine’s Day, just like I knew he would. Of course, he blamed me. Technically, I did the dumping, as I didn’t want to be treated so horrible, but I know his games. It was all his doing.

I feel like it was the best Valentine’s Day gift I could have ever received from him: My freedom and my sanity. I cried a little last night, but not over him. I was sad I had put myself in this situation and wasted my time and energy. I feel strong and I am done in my heart and head with him. I had already felt this way for a while, but must have needed a little more convincing.

Not jaded

I am getting back to the person I used to be, and my heart doesn’t hurt anymore. I am angry and baffled at how this one man wrecked me so badly. I went through so much as a child, and it never affected me like this.

I do know what is wrong with me, though. I have helped people throughout my life, as I have been through the school of hard knocks. Some of them have been con artists or mentally ill, and some really needed it. I need to work on my need to heal the world of its sufferings. It is me that needs more healing, and instead of doing that, I set out to save us all. Ha ha, I know it’s not possible. I am too trusting and too loving, and I think I will work on whom not to trust and love. There are a lot of cruel people in this world, but I don’t think that should stop us from caring about the ones who really need our love and trust.

I will not let this man jade me, just as I didn’t let my childhood experiences jade me. If I do, they win. I will still love, trust, and respect others, but I will be a lot more selective especially with the lower life ones. I can run from the educated ones, but the lower life dummies get my sympathies every time. “It’s not their fault life was so hard for them.” Well, it was hard for me too, but I don’t use people, treat them like objects, lie, and I’m not mean. So, boo hoo!


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181 Comments on "LETTERS TO LOVERAUD: I will work on whom not to trust or love"

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Jen,

Thank you for telling your story. I am a giving person too, being sympathetic to others’ hardships, willing to help others out, sometimes getting me into trouble. I am learning (at this late date) that if a person won’t help themselves, I can’t help them either. I admire you for coming through the “school of hard knocks” in one piece, not letting your disappointments turn you into a bitter person. Your children sound blessed to have you for a mom.

Jen,

Wow…….

“I will still love, trust, and respect others, but I will be a lot more selective especially with the lower life ones. I can run from the educated ones, but the lower life dummies get my sympathies every time. “It’s not their fault life was so hard for them.” Well, it was hard for me too, but I don’t use people, treat them like objects, lie, and I’m not mean”

Thanks for sharing your WHOLE story!!!

Low life’s for me are NOT the one’s who get my attention, it’s the EDUCATED LOW LIFE’S that get mine lol!! Mine were both intelligent, hard workers. I felt “sorry” for them and their PERSONAL lives.

GO figure.

Lots of wonderful insights in your story. Good for you and your motivation and determination in getting past your pain.

You’ve given me a lot to think about!

LL

So many of us work to find our way in a confusing maze, alone and struggling with consequences to terrible childhoods. Today I found this poem and it comforted me, esp the last line. -Katy

After a While You Learn

After a while you learn the difference, the subtle difference,
between holding a hand and chaining a soul.
You learn that love doesn’t mean leaning
and company doesn’t mean security.
You begin to learn that kisses aren’t contracts
and presents aren’t promises.

You begin to accept your defeats
with your head up and your eyes open,
with the grace of an adult, not the grief of a child.
You learn to build all your roads on today
because tomorrow’s ground is too uncertain for plans.

After a while you learn that even sunshine burns
if you get too much.

So plant you own garden and decorate your own soul,
instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
Then you learn that you can really endure”and that you really are strong.
And you really do have worth.
-Veronica A. Shoffstall

Katy, I’ve read that poem before, but it’s been a while. It’s so beautiful. Thanks for posting it,, and reminding me.

Nice one Katy.

I’d like feedback about RED FLAGS in a new relationship.

I am in last stages of divorce, separated 3 yrs now. Met this man, C, on a match site 2 months ago. He’s 2 hrs away, and drives to see me twice a week regularly. We just also went away for a few days, great oppty. to get to know him more.

Great things–he is smart, sensitive, kind, honest, financially responsible, a good father, good looking, attentive and caring to me, easygoind, good communicator, able to express feelings, good listener. I feel attraction adn easygoing chemistry.

Red flags. PLEASE tell me your feedback about these and how to best test them out further.

1) Divorced three times, four kids from 3 marriages. Last, short marriage (a year?) to a sociopathic woman I believe who hooked him, deceived him to get pregnant, then showed instability and craziness after marriage; 2 yr old kid with wife #3. Second 10 year marriage to a nice woman, but there was no conjugal relationship, more like roommates, and she got in a bad accident and needed 2 yrs to recover, which delayed their divorce that much longer; amicable and good parents now, get along great around kids and communicate regularly and openly. Respects her greatly, only they are not good marriage partners. First marriage, maybe for 5 yrs or less, to a woman who also showed signs of instability and craziness–e.g. she’d hit him hard in the ribs for making a joke about her college and similar out of cotnrol behaviors.

On our getaway he showed another side of him that surprised me. He got pissed off after a stranger made a snotty remark to him. We were leaving a restaurant two minutes after entering it bec. they were full, adn some people standign outside asked him “how was dinner?” He answered the guy “it was awesome” but then walking to car, told me, upset, what the hell was that guy talking to him like that for, and he wanted to pick him up and throw him in the snow. Later as we had dinnere elsewhere, he was sullen, distant, cold. Detached from me and in a foul mood.

Back in hotel, my intuition told me to keep my distance. I just didn’t like this new face, though it wasn’t anything extraordinarily weird or bad, it was different. My first instinct was not to have him near my kid. He had met her, and was really really nice with her, really supportive of her sports, and hit it off great with her, joking, talking and helping her with a school assignment even. That same day when he flipped out about the comment, we had met my daughter for lunch and had a good day with her, then drove back to our hotel for the rest of our trip.

Afterwards, next day, we did talk this out. He did admit that he has somethign to work on and wants to and will. He’s determined to fix it. THat he is very motivated. That he is in love with me and does nto want this to get in the way and affect me and our relationship.

Another red fleg. When we were intimate, he said “I don’t want anyone else to touch you.” At the moment I was thrilled to hear it. My former husband NEVER said such a thing, I wanted him to be jealous. He was never jealous. Like I wasnt’ even a woman. But I liked that this man wants me so much. But now I wonder if I’m paranoid to think this may be a clue of possessiveness??

And lastly–he confided in me about a dark part in his life when things didn’t work out with 3rd marriage and he lost everything he worked hard for. He had built an addition to his old house to include her family, then couldn’t sell it bec. it was so huge and not finished for selling and had so much work and money to put in it just to sell it. Worried that she influenced his own kids badly…just down on himself for getting taken advantage of. . .to the low point of suicidal thoughts. He actually contemplated it. Told me that he was in his car at a remote place with gun to his head and hand on trigger. I was stunned to hear it. Glad he trusted me to confide…but…I’ve never gotten to that point and wonder how stable is his mind, his emotions, if he’s let himself get that low, put himself and his life, and kids even, in harm’s way to the point of such despair?

I really liked him so much in the past two months and had great hopes. Now I have doubts.

What do LW readers think about all this? Am I correct to be worried? How should I proceed if I do see him again? Do I ask him about the gun? Does he still have it? Why did he have it in the first place? Do you all think that just the fact of his owning a gun is cause for alarm alone? My stbx husband also was getting alicense for a gun and I wasnt’ thrilled, but it didn’t make me nervous–when we were still together. MY dad was military and had a gun and I was never afraid of it being there or felt unsafe in how he used it or handled it…but he was my dad. I only know this guy for two months, and I just don’t know all about him.

He’s offered to have me meet his parents. Is two months of dating too soon?

ALso, in a moment of weakness, I showed him my fianncial report for my divorce division of assets, so he knows since recently what all my assets are such as retirement, pension, house value, mortgage. He deals w/finances and budget for his work and said he’d help me if I wanted him to, and was very laid back about it. I felt at the moment that I could trust him, that he was an ally, and it was okay. He has mentioned to me what he paid for his house, what child support he pays for his 2 year old, that he splits colllege cost for the oldest son, and when he did his taxes he thought he earned $x, but earned more. I didn ‘t see this on paper, the way he saw real written figures on a formal report from a financial advisor. . . I am not a stupid person, but with trust, maybe I am quite stupid. DO you think this was retarded of me to show him my assets?

I guess at the time before the trip incident, I had not the slightest inkling that there was anything wrong. He was just a really nice guy, so kind and helpful. He’d buy me a snow scraper for my car, and the winshiels flued that doesn’t freeze, he’d want to help me shovel snow off my roof, and he helped me break up ice on driveway, suggested that my car wasn’t starting when I visited him and he was warming it up and to go check my battery, which I did and it was low, good think I replaced it. Little things like that. Pretty fair when we go out, he pays once, I pay once, and it’s pretty even and fair.

I just don’t know what to trust or not trust or if I am too paranoid having been burned in my marriage and divorce.

I am eager to hear your guys’ view of this.

Thank you.

DW,
I don’t like the stories he is telling you. There is an element of DRAMA! in them.
I don’t like the DRAMA that he created about a silly remark from a stranger who means nothing to him.
I don’t like the fact that you felt like revealing your financial situation to him. They plant little subconcious clues in our heads and before we know it, we are doing/saying stuff we wish we could take back.

My advice is go GREY ROCK. Show no emotions when you start to see DRAMA. Show no emotions in response to his DRAMATIC stories. This will be a test. When he doesn’t get a response he will ramp it up. You need to watch the movie terminator 3 and channel the facial expressions of the female terminator:she has none. Reacting in this way will make him show his true colors sooner than later.

OMG Dancing, this is SO important and I saw SO many red flags BLAZING in the wind, I copied your post and will reply, piece by piece. See below.

I’d like feedback about RED FLAGS in a new relationship.

I am in last stages of divorce, separated 3 yrs now. Met this man, C, on a match site 2 months ago. He’s 2 hrs away, and drives to see me twice a week regularly. We just also went away for a few days, great oppty. to get to know him more.

1. BIG MISTAKE. GET OFFLINE!

Great things”“he is smart, sensitive, kind, honest, financially responsible, a good father, good looking, attentive and caring to me, easygoind, good communicator, able to express feelings, good listener. I feel attraction adn easygoing chemistry.

2. YEP, AREN’T THEY ALL AT FIRST? HOW DO YOU REALLY KNOW AFTER TWO MONTHS?

Red flags. PLEASE tell me your feedback about these and how to best test them out further.

1) Divorced three times, four kids from 3 marriages. Last, short marriage (a year?) to a sociopathic woman I believe who hooked him, deceived him to get pregnant, then showed instability and craziness after marriage;

A. UM??? DID HE TELL YOU THIS??? PITY PLOY, NEVERMIND HOW MANY MARRIAGES AND CHILDREN HERE.

2 yr old kid with wife #3. Second 10 year marriage to a nice woman, but there was no conjugal relationship, more like roommates, and she got in a bad accident and needed 2 yrs to recover, which delayed their divorce that much longer; amicable and good parents now, get along great around kids and communicate regularly and openly.

BULLSHIT!!! MY SPATH USED THIS AS A PITY PLOY AND DID IT WITH OTHER WOMEN TOO! NO SEX? NUH UH. ROOMATES?> CAN HIM! THIS IS A LIE!

Respects her greatly, only they are not good marriage partners.

A. HE SAYS THIS TO MAKE YOU THINK HE”S A GREAT GUY! NOT!!

First marriage, maybe for 5 yrs or less, to a woman who also showed signs of instability and craziness”“e.g. she’d hit him hard in the ribs for making a joke about her college and similar out of cotnrol behaviors.

A. PITY PLOY AGAIN!!! , AFTER TWO MONTHS, HOW WOULD YOU REALLY KNOW???? THIS IS GARBAGE!!!

On our getaway he showed another side of him that surprised me. He got pissed off after a stranger made a snotty remark to him. We were leaving a restaurant two minutes after entering it bec. they were full, adn some people standign outside asked him “how was dinner?” He answered the guy “it was awesome” but then walking to car, told me, upset, what the hell was that guy talking to him like that for, and he wanted to pick him up and throw him in the snow. Later as we had dinnere elsewhere, he was sullen, distant, cold. Detached from me and in a foul mood.

A. RUN RUN RUN RUN!!! IF HE TREATS ANYONE THIS WAY, INCLUDING YOU, HE WILL DO IT WORSE LATER!!!!

Back in hotel, my intuition told me to keep my distance. I just didn’t like this new face, though it wasn’t anything extraordinarily weird or bad, it was different. My first instinct was not to have him near my kid. He had met her, and was really really nice with her, really supportive of her sports, and hit it off great with her, joking, talking and helping her with a school assignment even. That same day when he flipped out about the comment, we had met my daughter for lunch and had a good day with her, then drove back to our hotel for the rest of our trip.

A. RUN RUN RUN RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS YOUR GUT TALKING DW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Afterwards, next day, we did talk this out. He did admit that he has somethign to work on and wants to and will. He’s determined to fix it. THat he is very motivated. That he is in love with me and does nto want this to get in the way and affect me and our relationship.

A. WAKE UP!!! NO ONE “FALLS IN LOVE” AFTER JUST TWO MONTHS CHICA!!!! THIS IS ANOTHER LINE OF BULLSHIAT!!

Another red fleg. When we were intimate, he said “I don’t want anyone else to touch you.” At the moment I was thrilled to hear it. My former husband NEVER said such a thing, I wanted him to be jealous. He was never jealous. Like I wasnt’ even a woman. But I liked that this man wants me so much. But now I wonder if I’m paranoid to think this may be a clue of possessiveness??

A. WANTS YOU SO MUCH? TRANSLATION: WANTS TO CONTROL YOU SO MUCH!!!

And lastly”“he confided in me about a dark part in his life when things didn’t work out with 3rd marriage and he lost everything he worked hard for. He had built an addition to his old house to include her family, then couldn’t sell it bec. it was so huge and not finished for selling and had so much work and money to put in it just to sell it. Worried that she influenced his own kids badly”just down on himself for getting taken advantage of. . .to the low point of suicidal thoughts. He actually contemplated it. Told me that he was in his car at a remote place with gun to his head and hand on trigger. I was stunned to hear it. Glad he trusted me to confide”but”I’ve never gotten to that point and wonder how stable is his mind, his emotions, if he’s let himself get that low, put himself and his life, and kids even, in harm’s way to the point of such despair?

A. PITY PLOY AGAIN!!!!!! RUN, DW!!! ALL OF THIS READS LIKE A SCRIPT RIGHT OUT THE SPATH PLAY BOOK!!!

I really liked him so much in the past two months and had great hopes. Now I have doubts.

A. GOOD FOR YOU!!! LISTEN TO YOUR GUT AND GOOD ON YOU FOR COMING HERE!!! YAY FOR YOU!!! YOUR RADAR IS GOOD CHICA!!!

What do LW readers think about all this? Am I correct to be worried? How should I proceed if I do see him again? Do I ask him about the gun? Does he still have it? Why did he have it in the first place? Do you all think that just the fact of his owning a gun is cause for alarm alone? My stbx husband also was getting alicense for a gun and I wasnt’ thrilled, but it didn’t make me nervous”“when we were still together. MY dad was military and had a gun and I was never afraid of it being there or felt unsafe in how he used it or handled it”but he was my dad. I only know this guy for two months, and I just don’t know all about him.

He’s offered to have me meet his parents. Is two months of dating too soon?

ALso, in a moment of weakness, I showed him my fianncial report for my divorce division of assets, so he knows since recently what all my assets are such as retirement, pension, house value, mortgage. He deals w/finances and budget for his work and said he’d help me if I wanted him to, and was very laid back about it. I felt at the moment that I could trust him, that he was an ally, and it was okay. He has mentioned to me what he paid for his house, what child support he pays for his 2 year old, that he splits colllege cost for the oldest son, and when he did his taxes he thought he earned $x, but earned more. I didn ’t see this on paper, the way he saw real written figures on a formal report from a financial advisor. . . I am not a stupid person, but with trust, maybe I am quite stupid. DO you think this was retarded of me to show him my assets?

I guess at the time before the trip incident, I had not the slightest inkling that there was anything wrong. He was just a really nice guy, so kind and helpful. He’d buy me a snow scraper for my car, and the winshiels flued that doesn’t freeze, he’d want to help me shovel snow off my roof, and he helped me break up ice on driveway, suggested that my car wasn’t starting when I visited him and he was warming it up and to go check my battery, which I did and it was low, good think I replaced it. Little things like that. Pretty fair when we go out, he pays once, I pay once, and it’s pretty even and fair.

A. My opinion DW, for what it’s worth. This man sounds EXACTLY like my ExPOS and the ploys he’s used to lure in his gf’s. This man is dangerous. NEVER SHOW YOUR FINANCIAL ANYTHING TO ANYONE AFTER ONLY TWO MONTHS OF DATING.

PLEASE walk away, NOW!! This relationSHIT is dangerous and so is this man.

RUN RUN RUN RUN DW!!!!!

LL
I just don’t know what to trust or not trust or if I am too paranoid having been burned in my marriage and divorce.

I am eager to hear your guys’ view of this.

Thank you.

Sky,

OMG………truthfully, why even let this relationSHIT have a chance. This guy is SCREAMING red flags all over the place.

DW, I TRULY think that online dating sites are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and from everything I’ve read in your post here, for those very reasons.

It’s better to walk away from this man. Two months is too soon and the red flags are simply WAY too many….WAY too many….

LL

I like that grey rock, skylar.

LL,
the only reason I suggest grey rock is because DW obviously is not convinced yet and that’s why she is asking us. We can tell her what we think and offer our help but only she has actual contact with this guy. She is being affected by BOTH sides of his personality and she doesn’t know which one is real.

Well we all know that when someone has 2 personalities, we already KNOW which one is real. The bad one. But still, DW is not ready to decide. So what would make her decide? A test or two or three. Tests work when you have a hypothesis: if he is a spath, then when I do Y, he will do X. Then do the test and see what happens.

One “test” I did when I was with the spath was the garbage test. I wasn’t sure if I was being paranoid or crazy but it seemed to me that he was trying to make me miss the garbage pick up on Fridays. He would leave early and call just before noon and keep me on the phone with some story or some crisis. If I wasn’t completely cognizant I would miss the garbage pick up. I had already told him how much it bothered me to have to deal with that – for many reasons.

To make the test even better, I told my good sister what I suspected. And I explained the test and made predictions. My predictions were so good I could actually predict when he would call TO THE MINUTE, each week. The first week it was at 11:55 and he failed, so I predicted 11:30 for next friday and it was exactly 11:30! and so on. My sister was amazed. She no longer doubted me and neither did I. What was more amazing was when my spath sister and spath neighbor would do the same thing! I told my good sis, but this was before we knew about spaths and we were completely flumoxed (sp?) about what to think could be the cause of this strange behavior in so many people! It wasn’t until I tested the spath that things began to gel and I understood that he was somehow behind the calls from the neighbor and spath sis. Later, reading books about spaths and stuff on LF, just filled in the blanks. Spaths are actually very predictable.

Scientists do tests and repeat them for a reason: It cements the fact that your logic is correct when you are able to predict an outcome. We can do tests too.

Sky,

I don’t doubt what you’re saying to be true. And I DO agree with you..to an extent, but this guy is simply showing WAY too many red flags right away.

He’s in love with her after TWO MONTHS? Nope. The endless pity ploys, the nasty comments after they had dinner?

There is an article here, not sure if it was Donna who wrote it or not….that if someone shows even a FEW of sociopathic traits RUN!

There are SO many other fish in the sea. What I see is that you are (DW) posting here about it because you are CONCERNED, which is a GREAT thing…….but the reality that you SEE these red flags (to me blazing and enough to be OBJECTIVE) says cut your losses and run

When I see stuff like this Sky, I have to be true to myself. If there is even A PIECE that is vulnerable within and you’re even REMOTELY getting sucked in by all of this bullshiat, it’s time to run. Not give “tests” to this person.

DW, you were concerned enough to post here. You asked for an opinion and you’re going to get that. I’m not suggesting that mine is better than all the rest, but this guy is showing CLEARLY more than one red flag. What vulnerability is he APPEALING to you, because I think he’s full of shit!

If you DO decide to “test” him, I hope you are STRONG ENOUGH to walk away…because truthfully? I think he’s already shown you that he’s a spath.

LL

Sky,

I like grey rock too, but when we want to stay with someone who is showing more than ONE red flag waving in the wind (again this man has SEVERAL), grey rock is a license to make this man “okay” in some way. Spaths know how to get around it.

If there is ONE chink in a person’s armour and the spath gets that? It’s all over.

DW…..I might be assuming, but I think you want this guy to “check out okay” with “tests”

But he’s already on a NO PASS…..

Please pay attention. This man SCREAMS spath!

LL

LL-I left you a post but I accidentally put it on the wrong thread!

My ex said I love you after one month!

LL,
I completely agree with you. Even if he’s not spath, he doesn’t sound like he’s healthy at all and if past experience says anything about the future, well…

When you all got mad at ToBe and bitched her out, I couldn’t believe it, for 2 reasons: first, that is not how we should treat each other, in my opinion. Second and more importantly, all that DRAMA isn’t how you convince others to see things your way. A logical argument, presenting the evidence is much more effective. Many people did try that with ToBe but the screaming at her, got in the way of her even wanting to listen.

The spaths of course have an advantage with their convoluted logic and emotional ploys. And we are at a disadvantage in that we haven’t met this guy. No one is perfect and that’s the facade the spaths hide behind, “oh well, I am a flawed human being, really trying to be better, but damaged from my abusive upbringing.”

Anyway DW sees, she isn’t blind but her heart needs to be convinced now. She is on her way out of that relationshit, I’m sure of it – her ship is sailing with red flags ‘aflyin’.

The thing about grey rock, though LL, is that spaths DON’T know how to get around it. It’s their kryptonite. They can’t stand to be bored, it makes them act CRAZY to ramp up the drama. It makes their masks slip. NC and grey rock are the power to starve a spath.

PLEASE! Dont feed the spaths! 🙂

LL, to finish the thought:
Remember it was DW who posted the red flags for US to see. So obviously she sees them too. So when she asks us for confirmation, I think she wants more help with extricating her heart. (correct me if I’m wrong DW) The only thing that will do that is more and more evidence.

Way back when I first left the spath, I did go NC at first to get my head together. It was necessary so I could read and study the situation. But my heart, after 25 years had a hard time FEELING the right emotions toward a spath. We feel love and empathy when we should feel disgust and abhorance. I mean these things are the slime of the earth, they are abominations. What kind of freak feels love when looking at the devil? me. I did. I knew it was the wrong feeling and had to re-train it away.

After some NC time, one of the things I did, was to listen to the tape recordings of his evil voice saying evil things. That really helped but it wasn’t enough. Eventually I knew I would have to test myself to see how my heart would react to his presence. The first time, it waffled and tears came up. I saw him again a couple more times with more resolve and I was able to force my emotions to stay congruent with my knowledge that he was a black hole of evil. I was cool and collected, felt only disgust. I spit a little venom at him a few times, but it was without emotion, mostly sharp jabs at him for being a pathetic and predictable sociopath. I treated him with derision. I didn’t even bother showing contempt, he isn’t worth that much emotion.

Those meetings were helpful because I could see through him this time. I saw how sick his behavior was and how he tried to create drama out of thin air.

Lesson Learned,

From my blurb of warning signals, you are telling me loudly to RUN!!!! lol

Yeh. . . I feel so sad, you know. Thank god I’m seeing a therapist and I run by her all my “stuff” and was telling her he sounds too good to be true. Well. . .

What bugs me is that in the two months, there wasn’t a second of a funny, weird feeling about him–until the trip, when he let his guard down so to speak, and I thought even relaxing around me NOT to be on best behavior was still a good thing, because we all put on our best suit with new dates anyhow.

Thanks.

LL, Reading further below, as I continue to read the thread, you say this man SCREAMS spath.

My intuition did kick in. I listened carefully. I got very very vigilant, like a cat.

I’d like to write more if you guys check back, just want to read all posts first.

DW

1. You came here. You already had a gut feeling, RED flags flying in the wind. If you DIDN”T you would NOT have come here to ask if this guy was “okay”. I understand that. I don’t want to be bossy, DW, but PLEASE, dump this guy and NO MORE online dating. My exPOS is an online predator. I feel SO SORRY for his current gf, cuz guess what, DW? HE”S STILL TROLLING HIS DATING SITE EVEN THOUGH HE”S LOVE BOMBING HER!

The point here is, …..well, read the Ten Signs You’re Dating a Sociopath. He READS just like that!!!!! textbook!!!

You’re intuition DID kick in!! GOOD FOR YOU DW!! This is a GREAT SIGN!!!

CUT YOUR “LOSSES” and THINK here!!

Seriously, other than the obvious pity ploys, what bothered me IMMENSELY (OTHER THAN THAT) Is his appealing to the reality that you want him to be JEALOUS (IE:POSSESSIVE) Of you that he doesn’t want other men touching you. LOL!!! OOPS!!! BIG RED FLAG…..
THe “I”M IN LOVE WITH YOU LINE, this is THE single MOST GIGANTIC red flag…….

DW, it takes a LONG TIME, IN REALITY to “fall in love” with someone. He’s LOVE BOMBING YOU!!!!

But it’s more than just he, right now. What is it that HE is saying/doing that is appealing to a potential VULNERABILITY within YOU? OMG, I WOULDN”T Sleep/have sex with a man in the first two months.

DW, you’re SMART. That’s why you’re HERE asking us what to do or ……….

Run, DW. Just RUN!!! It’s only two months, not TWO YEARS OR TWENTY WASTED ON THIS PREDATOR!!!

RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LL

Hi Skylar,

Yes you got that right–“I think she wants more help with extricating her heart.”

Correspondence in eharmony seemed straightforward, real, and honest. In real life, everythign he said online checked out.

First date, my gut feeling in person was free and clear of any “noise” or anything funny. He did not put on an act, try to be charming or imprss me. He was nervous as hell. Just bought a new car and after lunch offered we take a ride in his car to go for dessert somewhere. I was hesitant, and instantly he sensed it and responded “Do you not want to do that?” with concern, and we walked some and I actually felt deep down it was totally safe, and we did go for dessert, and it was more than nice.

If I mentioned a book I’m reading, he goes buys it and reads it so we have something to discuss, and it doesn’t seem contrived. He actually laughs about the good parts and quotes good quotes. (East of Eden, Steinbeck)

Spur of the moment there was a yoga class in a city 3 hrs away by the teacher I trained with, and I ask if he wants to go, he agrees. I had to drive through a horrific snow storm to meet him on the way, not knowing it was going to be that bad, and then no turning back as it would be just as bad. He was so calm on phone, texting now and then to hang in there, or to call when safe, and guided me toward a highway away from the bad area where there was no snow at all, and I made it through.

We shared a hotel room, with two beds. He never put the tiniest pressure for sex. We did talk and lie in the same bed, then even slept in the same bed. No sex. I felt really safe to share a room though I didn’t know him well. He did yoga with me, though he had never done it before, and it was a hard class.

We are both only children. Both our parents seem similar in personalities only switch dad/mom–my dad was like his mom. So much to relate to with similar family dynamics. Unlke my former husband who was incapable of empathy, this man genuinely is very empathetic, too much so.

Went to see King’s Speech, so much to talk about the movie, like teenagers couldn’t wait to hold hands in the movie. Very silly stuff.

Then, get this…I was the sexually aggressive one!! Me! I am inexperienced and sheltered in a long marriage. Well, I got hot and frisky in the car one date, and told him better get a rain check wen we can be alone. And the first time we were intimate, I felt totally safe to do it. That may be stupid of me. Asked him about birth control and STDs, he said taken care of as he had a visectomy and was clean of any std’s. I believed him. If it were my daughter, I’d say don’t just believe him. We were in the city for the day and I was the one who actually wanted this, so we got a hotel, and then he couldn’t perform. He was so nervous. And so embarrassed.

He never drinks (wine sulfates bother his sinuses and he doesn’t like how alcohol makes him feel), but I had suggested a glass of wine prior to 1st date in case we were nervous, so he offered we get a glass of wine to help him with nervous jitters. I laughed so hard with him with a few glasses of wine, it was crazy. We both said how unusual that we met; but it was easy to talk, to joke, to laugh.

His daughter texted me as she called me his “yoga friend” as he told her about me, and I made her chocolate macaroons. We had an inside joke about her dad eating everythign in sight, and it was fun for me to be included with his kid that way, though I hadn’t had a chance to meet her yet as I did’t go his way more than once.

I spent the night at his place once. I went for the day, then got lazy to drive in the dark and cold and decided to stay overnight unplanned. It was really really nice. His house was quiet. His 2 yr old was there, sleeping in his room. I felt very peaceful and good there. It felt real, genuine and warm in his home. ANd he felt good in his environment. We baked macaroons together and laughed our head off…that’s how his kid found out about it the next day.

So….with these incidents, I’ve seen him as a nice guy. A mellow guy. A decent and honest guy. I saw him interact with his little boy, when he woke up in the morning and called for daddy. How he goes to him…looked nice. He insists on having all the kids at his place a lot. He takes the 2 yr old very frequently. To me that’s a good thing. A responsible and loving thing.

I don’t know. I feel like I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I did so much comparison to my soon to be ex husband, and SO MANY things are so different and nice about this man. Even when I used to date my ex he wasn’t that nice.

For Valentine’s he sent a nice bouquet of flowers and chocolates. I was touched. And a really nice card that was meaningful…it had various scenarios of a couple, and inside he wrote how the only thing missing was a couple in a car, bec. due to distance we’d spend a lot of time in the car since it’s cold and no place to walk after we finish dinner, say, and there are memories and talks in the car. . .

Skylar, I really do want to do the grey rock test. I do want to see how much tension this man can bear but not sure how exactly to do this.

Like now, I have schoolwork to do and busy over weekend. He’s been adamant about seeing me a lot. I’ve obliged mostly. This weekend I”ll certainly say no, but he hasn’t even asked knowing I’m swamped.

ALso he’s bought basketball tournament tickets for next week to see with me and my daughter and his oldest son. We were going to go next weekend. He woldn’t do anything weird with them around I’m sure…but wonder how I could do a test then.

You see How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days? LOL silly movie. I can have him go get me a coke during a goog part of game, and then when he gets it say I wanted DIET coke and send him back. LOL (movie)

I am intrigued about the grey rock thing, and do explain more skylar. Essentially, just poker face if he is looking for approval, or a response or acknowledgement when somethign goes wrong or he plays up drama, yes? Just act as if I couldn’t be bothered and don’t care one way or another.

He has seen that I am warm, and caring, and sympathetic and I know that he is drawn to that. ANd why not? I would be and ma too–he’s that way to me too. So if I temporarily turn that off, what will he do.

Please do give me more tips on this if you read this Sky.

I remember the disappointed feeling I got after his sullen mood. The sense that I just didn’t know which one is the real him. The lovely smiling one. THe easygoing one. The happy mellow one? Or this murky grim one that got pushed over the edge over some unknown person. Being too sensitive.

The suicide thing also bothered me. I don’t mean to judge ANYONE who’s been at that dark time of the deep low. It’s not fair to judge a person as I’ve not been in his shoes and can’t understand what they’d think they’d achieve by doing that.

My therapist said she imagined that maybe if he doesn’t want to be dependent in some way, the act might mean an extreme expression of INdependence–cutting off from… I don’t quite relate or understand. ANd it’s just too sad, to be at that low point.

Also….RED flag again. One time he stayed overnight at my house without my daughter knowing. We were in the remote part of house where it’s quiet as separate from house. He told me how much he appreciated that I am warm, phsyically and how he’s been scarred by rejection. I’ve shared similar war wounds from my marriage of loneliness and rejection. THen he got kind of upset and even used the f word which he never does. Said, “It f’ing HURTS to be rejected. . .It f’ing HURTS to be rejected” I recall feeling, WHOA, too much information dude…tell your therapist. BUt he stopped at that and he was cool. It just seemed a bit strong.

Thus after his foul mood and me just going to sleep, I wondered about his feeling rejected. . . Geez…my ex did similar things if I’d turn away from him it would push him over the edge totally. He’d blow up in the car if I looked out the window and was silent. He’d feel abandoned and freak out. Weird!!!

Yeh…as you can see…my heart did get entangled already. So yeh…I”m not quite on the RUN yet, but I do want to keep my eyes and ears open.

LL,

No question my vulnerability is my loneliness at the final ending steps of my divorce. I was reluctant to engage to begin with on a rebound.

My Achilles’ heel is that it felt so GOOD to be enlivened with romance again…after such a long separation and such pain and struggle through ugly divorce conflicts.

The fears of being an old lady in a rocking chair with 12 cats… my ex is 13 yrs older, and this man is 2 yrs older.

And I so agree about the physical part…I’d never sleep with a guy in two months… but being so needy for contact I suppose, I couldn’t resist.

Thank god I have a good therapist to lean on so I am not so needy and dependent to fall for him. I have her support and have already shared this with her. She told me to be very worried about the GUN. ANd if /when I talk with him again to bring it up openly and ask him about it. Where did you get a gun? What happened to the gun?

Thanks LL. I hear you lound and clear. I can’t tell you or myself why I am still sticking around after having that gut feeling in the hotel room. Next morning he actually asked me if I had his MP player. LOL He lent it to me so I could copy his music, and I told him I brought it back. Perhaps thinking he might not see me again, he made sure to ask for it. LOL. But he also lent me his video camera to film my daughter’s game, adn I still have that as collateral. j/k

Dw

It is SO CLEAR TO ME that you UNDERSTAND what he is and what he’s doing.

I understand about being lonely, I really do.

But I’d rather be lonely and fart in my own space than be with another asshole in which it takes several more years to get over.

You’re better off alone and in peace. Who gives a shit what the gun thing was all about?

Trust me on the gun thing (my first post under “nothing says I love you like a glock”) it might APPEAR INNOCENT, but it’s not

DW, this is where you trust your gut. Two months is NOTHING, this guy is waving red flags in the wind that you are CLEARLY seeing.

I believe you came here (correct me if I’m wrong) for validation to your INTUITION.

You got it.

Get out. Be lonely, plant flowers, get a dog…………but DO NOT GO WITH THIS MAN!

YOU”RE WORTH MORE!!

LL

TO BABE AND DW,

Granted, you each have different situations that you’re dealing with right now. I’m not sorry I shared my opinion with you both because you asked.

I need to split now and spend some time with my kids. I’m so triggered right now, I’m ready to have someone shoot my ass to the moon……..

I feel SO BADLY and SO MUCH IN MY HEART with some of these posts……….

I don’t mean to be bossy, but yet again I do….

If there is ONE chance I can help even ONE person avoid another spath or help to save themselves in preventing another MAJOR catastrophe, I would.

That’s the part of me that cares so much.

So ladies, I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’re going to do what you’re doing to do.

But I DO care….and that’s why I am SO PASSIONATE about sharing with you what I see. I can’t claim to be right about it….but I think it’s safe to say that we sometimes see situations clearly when we ourselves cannot.

Just know that I care. I don’t want ANYONE to suffer a spath ever again, particularly if you already have.

NIte 🙂

LL

((((LL)))))
Sweet LL,
You are so raw from your spath because it’s so recent. The grey area is scaring the shit out of you. You want black and white. I SO TOTALLY GET THAT. You can’t even stand the thought of a grey area. You know what? LL, when it comes to your ExPOS and my exP, THERE IS NO GREY AREA. IT’S BLACK AND WHITE. Just because someone else has grey doesn’t mean that the monsters who tried to eat us alive are anything less than that. We KNOW. Their is NO DOUBT.

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT MY EXP WAS THE POSTER CHILD FOR SOCIOPATHY I know he is a murderer and an arsonist and a pedophile. And yours was the poster child with a license to marry and bury – fuck, in that order. First he marries then he buries the women in his web.

That said, maybe you don’t want to read what I’m writing to DW. It ain’t pretty. I told you, I’m working on me and I have different methods than most people here do. In fact, maybe I should just get DW’s email address and take this offline. yep, that’s probably best.

(((((((((((((( Sky ))))))))))))))))))))

I hope you’re not pissed at me. 🙁

I remember the article I saw the other night about even a few traits is enough to run.

In this case, the red flags were obvious. Who is the grey rock for?

There are just times that it’s best to cut your losses and get the hell out of dodge!!!

IN this case? Too many red flags. If anything, Sky, what my experiences have taught me is to SEE the red flags. I see grey rock working when you’re already deep into the relationshit.

But not in this case. It’s SO incredibly OBVIOUS!! Why would you want someone to “test” a POSSIBLE sociopath?

If the thought even COMES to your mind and you write it out here……..and it’s SO OBVIOUS that this guy is a spath…or at LEAST shows many traits……………

Please tell me what is there needed to “test”?

What do you think the “Ten SIgns You’re Dating a Sociopath” is FOR?

It’s been only two months for her, Sky. not ten or fifteen or twenty five years.

This one is obvious. There is no ‘grey rock” here.

Love you.

LL

LL,
it’s for her heart.
2 months time is when your heart flutters at the thought of him. I remember my 2 months with the exP and the BF.
There is a bonding. from the oxytocin.

Sky,

I understand, but even through the “oxytocin” she came here with her INTUITION still INTACT.

Her intuition is more important than the oxytocin!

THANK GOD!!!

Let’s not encourage the oxytocin, but the intuition instead.

This guy is spath.

There is no “grey rock” here.

Love you!

LL

BTW,
LL,
it was about 2 months when the exP had me “arrested” by the singing telegram cop/man. Within a few weeks, I was in an accident that sealed my fate: a huge and looming lawsuit worth $100,000.00 in 1984 dollars. Grey rock would not have made this conman go away since he was expecting the big payoff. But if I had known, it would have given me clues to understand and dump him.

I would never be pissed at you.((LL))
We are on the same road. I’m only worried about triggering you. I know how vulnerable you are and don’t want to do that.xxooxxoo

LL,
you “test” the sociopath to convince YOURSELF. Even when you know the truth, your heart is …a traitor. It must be managed and convinced. But LL, you don’t need to do that because you had 10 years of memories. I had 25 years and still WANTED a test. I didn’t need it, I wanted it. At 2 months, maybe we need it, too.

Sky……..

Ya know what? Sure wish I had this site when the “oxytocin” kicked in, yet my GUT was still intact.

I might have made a COMPLETELY different choice.

Sometimes………………..Well, I don’t want to break anyone’s heart.

I want to STRENGTHEN Their intuition. You’re recalling something we all felt two months in…but there were red flags we IGNORED………

She’s seeing them.

I”m SO GLAD! This is where we can UNDERSCORE her GUT and INTUITION…

YAY! SO GLAD for that!!

Sky, I hear sorrow for you………..I understand, Chica. I feel it too.

I think (correct me FREELY) if I’m wrong here, but….there are triggers for us both the last couple of days….

But I’m not so triggered that I’m going to allow myself to get so stuck in the web that I can’t “help” someone else out. Ox might BOINK me good on this one, but I think it’s right.

The Ten Signs You’re Dating A Sociopath DEFINITELY apply here.

I can’t let what I felt my heart was feeling two months in, to knock out my good sense now in assisting someone else who comes here and shares the red flags when it’s LOUD AND CLEAR that they are PRESENT.

I”m proud of her. Her INSTINCT and GUT are speaking to her and she’s not WRONG…………what a great place to vent that!

That’s why Donna and so many others are trying to educate us and others who will (unfortunately) come after us, and those of us that are healing………

This guy is a L-O-S-E-R. It’s better to cut your losses at two months, oxytocin and all, then many years in….

Dear one! GET OUT of the relationshit. CUT your losses.

TWEEK your radar. YOU DID GOOD COMING HERE! WOOT!

Well, had my shrimp. Now my son and I are fighting over who gets the wiener tonight. lol! (Hens??)

It’s darned cold here in OreGONE!

19 degrees forecasted tonight! Snow on the ground……..

I’m gonna go steal my little heater and say good night!

Love to you all.

LL

Sky,
No. Not true. That negates the necessity of the ten traits.

He has too many red flags.

You don’t test a sociopath Sky.

And you don’t test as many red flags as he has.

You RUN. Period

LL

Sky,

Excuse me, I didn’t mean to invalidate you and how you feel. I mean I don’t agree.

He has too many red flags.

Testing a sociopath or someone who exhibits signs, is not a test.

It’s a get out now. RIGHT NOW. 🙂

L,
it was about 2 months when the exP had me “arrested” by the singing telegram cop/man. Within a few weeks, I was in an accident that sealed my fate: a huge and looming lawsuit worth $100,000.00 in 1984 dollars. Grey rock would not have made this conman go away since he was expecting the big payoff. But if I had known, it would have given me clues to understand and dump him.

I would never be pissed at you.((LL))
We are on the same road. I’m only worried about triggering you. I know how vulnerable you are and don’t want to do that.xxooxxoo

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sky, I”M OKAY with this!!!

Are you sure it’s not BOTH of us who are not triggered here? LOL I love you sky!!

If you KNEW what SHE knows and came here to tell us two months in, what would you have SAID to you??

Same thing I’m saying.

**Sees ox headin this way with frying pan**.

Chica…………….here’s the bottom line.

She SAW RED FLAGS (They’re HUGE HERE), came here, posted……got VALIDATION THAT YEP YEP YEP SURE IS A RED FLAG!!!

Sweetheart, you DON”T grey rock that MANY red flags, you effing RUN!

Off to bed sky. Talk at ya tomorrow!!!

HUGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LL

LL,
I’m not telling you that you’re wrong. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY RIGHT. I’m saying that our hearts are TURNED AGAINST US. Our hearts are like Peter when he denied Christ. They are traitors. They need to be treated DIFFERENTLY than our brains. (If you know what I mean)

I don’t trust my heart anymore. but I can’t deny its influence on me. So I do what I can to treat it better and give it what it needs. It needs much more EVIDENCE. It’s a stupid heart. I think it has an IQ of 50. But it’s all I got, so I have to be very careful with it.
I think your heart is much smarter or you have better control of it. You’ve been much braver than I ever was. I’m not like that so I have to figure out “tricks” that will make me function.

Sky,

You’re smarter than you think…even in your wonderful, big huge loving insightful heart 🙂

Love you.

LL

Morning everybody.
This is an interesting conversation. Mind if I jump in with my own 2 cents?
DW, I agree with LL. They are all charming, open and honest, fun and good natured at first. I think you got a glimmer of the guy behind the mask…is he a spath? Don’t know, but you are intuitively reacting to warning signs. Lots of them.
Remember that we tend to attract and be attracted to the same type of guy, over and over again, unless, we do a lot of work on ourselves. (I don’t even entertain the thought that I could be attracted to another type, so I don’t date.)
How this happens is un-canny, because they don’t seem the same, but underneith the same dynamics are in play, and after awhile it all becomes clear.
From your first post, I pinged on the very early, “I love you” and the “I don’t want another man to touch you” comment.
I pinged because I’ve experienced them, and been sucked in by them. A dream come true. NOT.
The gun incident and suicidal thoughts. Big issues. Scarey.
Crazy wives. UH huh. Blame shifting, projecting and smear campain is possible, but if he is telling the truth and they were unstable, why was he attracted to two of them? Disorder! It happens all the time that two disorders find each-other and at first it seems like a match made in heaven…see above. The uncanny. It’s a match made in hell and very addictive.
From your next post, I got the creeps about him reading the same book, and dropping everything to go to yoga class. He’s mirroring and stealing your identity, (because he doesn’t have one of his own?) putting it on and wearing it. Borderlines do that.
Interestingly enough, I’ve been reading as much as I can about Oxytocin, the last few days. It not only bonds us to our sex partner, but makes us more trusting, and more empathetic. Also increases generosity. Spaths secrete Oxytocin, but they don’t have as many receptors in the brain so it doesn’t really reach them. While we are being flooded with the warm fuzzies, they aren’t! The implications of that are staggering. I wonder if its an inflluence on love addictions.
Sky, I understand your getting it through your heart theory…I too had to know it in my heart, and it took years…but I suggest she leave tthis alone. It’s still early enough to run. Give it a little more time, and a little more oxytocin and she may be hooked, in spite of her doubts. Happens all the time.
There. JM2C.

Dancing Warrior

FEED BACK: Divorced three times, four kids from 3 marriages. STRIKE ONE, TWO, THREE and FOUR

lives two hours away (strike five)

met on internet (strike six)

Too much drama Me thinks!

DW,

I just reviewed one of your posts above that I didn’t see last night.

Sounds to me as if you’re trying to talk yourself out of your intuitiveness about the “mask slipping” here. It just reads so spathy it’s not even funny. Even if he is NOT spath, CLEARLY he is TOXIC. The love bombing, candy, flowers, etc….UGH!

Let’s see, most of them can be on their best behavior….but NOT for very long if you’re AWARE of the red flags. The REALITY that you came here and shared it with us, as many flags as there are, tells me that you KNOW this man is NOT RIGHT for you.

I have to be careful to say much more beyond this DW, because I have tendency to be rather passionate (overly so) about wanting to rescue or “fix” a situation when it involves a potential spath.

My exPOS is now on a dating site too. Did you find this guy on match? Yep. Mine is on Chemistry. The gal he was love bombing prior to this new gf and the things he did, were almost EXACTLY what you were describing. Two months is WAAAAAAY too early for this kind of stuff.

This could actually be a good thing for you if you’re paying attention to yourself and GIVING INTO your INTUITION. It says you need to FINE TUNE Your radar some! But this is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY because it’s so early and you’re clearly seeing stuff that doesn’t add up RIGHT NOW, so getting out would be A LOT easier than if this goes on and on and you continue to EXCUSE those red flags. I see you doing this DW and I sincerely hope that you will HEED those and head for the hills.

It’s one thing if you see a possible red flag…..but this guy has so many waving in the wind, you could probably see the red from Alaska to Russia!!!

you mentioned feeling lonely. I SO get that…but it’s better to be lonely than to get into another toxic relationship and dragging your kids into it too. UGH!

Good Luck!

LL

Hi LL, Sky, Eden,
sorry had a busy week, have been reading your posts.
LL
you have become so knowledgeable and sound so strong. you advice to DW is right on the money. I feel so good after reading your posts, you have been and are an inspiration to me. have a nice snow day, what fun, to be able to just laze around and not have to worry what the crap is going on with the jerk.
I am reaching that stage of inner peace and calm and not having to worry who he may be sending emails or calling while still proclaiming his love for me and making me his puppet.
Oxy – hi and thanks once again. the stength is coming back.
Sky and Eden,
thanks for all the advice.
will post and join the party with you on the weekend.
petite

Petitie!!

You sound GREAT!

See ya at the party this weekend!

LL

Party!!! Yahooooooooo. Is it bring a bottle? Are we having nibbles? Sleep over? Will we be dancing on the tables? Is it fancy dress? Can I wear a mask and come as a spath? Can’t wait.

I read what everyone has said. I want to tell you guys about the oxytocin thing. I met him on EH btw.

I married very sexually inexperienced (one b/f in college prior), so I didn’t know what to expect or what I was missing sexually in marriage. I know that it was never passionate nor satisfying, not even in honeymoon. He just wasn’t connected or attuned to me ever. Never felt seen as a woman, as a sexual being, more like an idolized object, like a mother figure, and this is what drove me nuts after 20 yrs of marriage and, yes, being like roommates. It was exrutiating. I sought help–counselors, marriage counselors, books, tapes…he poo pooed it all and didn’t accept my frustration. Then a retreat about love and intimacy put the nail in the coffin–we just could not do intimacy. It was never going to happen.

So…now the oxytocyn with this man, C, I met on eHarmony.

I have read about the bonding here, from others. I have never experienced it in my life before. I am 44. I have longed for a physical and emotional connection ALL my life. And here it is…or seems to be with Mr. C.

Yes, exactly because of the physical closeness, I felt more open, trusting, empathetic, and generous. And protective. Amazing how much of a bond that has made. I think actually both ways. I have NEVER experienced such trust sexually, ever.

And to hear you all talk about oxytocin’s influence and how it clouds judgment…wow…it’s eye opening. I so agree that I am totally gone due to this new experience. The sex satisfies some deeper, childlike, need for nurturing and warmth and closeness. So much more the reason not to engage in it two months but to wait and know more.

I emailed him today that it is important to me that he find someone to talk to now, instead of waiting. He had said that he has some work to do, and he will, and he WILL fix this, he’s motivate, including talking to someone as I’d mentioned before. It was a challenge on my part to tell him directly I want him to get counseling right now.

Interesting, there was NO response the rest of the day. NOrmally when I text him harmless things, he replies immediately.

I also want to send you guys the email he sent me immediately after the trip when he was afraid I’d cut and run. Please look at it. I’ll post it in a minute.

So thank you for reminding me just in how much danger I might be in — or as LL shouts, AM in. Thank you LL. Because I want all of this that he is giving me…especially the lovemaking… gosh that is the achilles’ heel. My hugest vulnerability having wanted it in my marriage. My ex husband used to tell me I smelled bad when I’d try to get close, say “did you shower? did you brush your teeth? ” and used to tell me my hair smelled bad. It was so hurtful and so scarring. And to have this man be loving and good to me in bed is like a balm to those wounds….very scary how easily I could and probably DID get attached to him because of those old wounds.

THank you so much for all you words of caution.

Here’s his email right after the bad experience on trip:

“Just a quick note, as you have plenty to do tonight. I really appreciate that you were able to get away for our trip – thank you. It was great to be away with you, to spend time with you, to make love with you. When we talked about 1/2 hour ago, you made a really nice comment to the effect that you would have liked to have spent more time with me and that we had a rough ending. I think it’s really important that you communicated your thoughts to me. It may seem unusual that I’d say that I learned a lot from talking with you today, but I really did.

When I say “I get it”, what I’m “getting” is what my behavior was and what effect it had on you and why. Internally, my angry reaction wasn’t that big of a deal at the time…just a passing thing or flashpoint, directed at some unknown person … Thank you for telling me what that anger meant to you. That anger wasn’t appropriate to the situation, and my outward reaction certainly wasn’t appropriate. There’s really no excuse, but I wouldn’t have truly known and understood without you opening up.

You’ve given me the information I need to start addressing the issue, and I will. Having shaken your sense of safety is terrible, totally the opposite of what you should have with me and the opposite of what I really am about. My core, normal state doesn’t have much to do with anger, nor do I take any joy/pride or similar in being angry. This is not going to be about a major personality shift or rethinking my values or training myself to have a new basic view of the world. I do have homework to do and I won’t make any sweeping, unchangeable assumptions at this point. But I do know my core well. I’m comfortable that my core is in the right place. I’ll work from there and do what I need to do.

You left me with a feeling that I’m very, very thankful for. That’s the feeling that I have the opportunity to work on things with your support. I’ll reiterate what I told you today. I have no illusions whatsoever that you should be the one to lead growth in me. I am responsible for that, no one else. I ask some things of you, and if you think they’re off-target please tell me so we can reach common ground. I promise to always make every effort to hear you – I want to, I’m made that way, I’ll be there – my ask? Please communicate with me the best you can and don’t assume that I know certain things. I only want the best for us and to be a healthy partner for you. Your communication to me allows me understanding, affords me the opportunity to grow, I’m eager to hear you.

When things are difficult, you feel hurt, I feel hurt…communication can become harder than in the “easy” times. I respect and understand that. As I go through this process I won’t burden you or dwell on things, the “ask” is for you to try to continue to understand that I’m working on things and be available to share your thoughts or occasionally let me share what I’m thinking.

My other ask? Please remember that I’m committed to contributing to the sapling’s growth. You are once-in-a-lifetime, a uniquely special person. I am in love with you and our relationship means so much to me.”

And this morning after he texted me a simple Hi, I sent him a blunt email:

“It is important to me that you find someone to talk to now, rather than later. I was thinking about our conversations, and believe it would be helpful, both to you and to us. Please tell me how you feel about that and we can talk more.”

NO RESPONSE. Not even, I’ll think about it, I’ll talk to you later, or even something unrelated. None.

Skylar, if you want to talk thru email, let me know how to get in touch.

And, maybe due to the bonding thing, my wishful thinking, perverse need to be convinced… I read the above email as sincere and believe it.

Skylar, pls let me know how to email you.

Dancing warrior—

You BARELY KNOW this guy and he is telling you

“You are once-in-a-lifetime, a uniquely special person. I am in love with you and our relationship means so much to me.”

This guy is coming on wayyyyyyy tooo fast! RUN!!!!!! RUN!!!!! Don’t look back.

The fact that you received no response is also very telling. I think this guy is just after a piece of ass. They tell us what we WANT to hear, what we LONG TO HEAR—the ROMANCE we have longed for and desire and presto—our hormones light up our pleasure center in our brain and we are HOOKED like a fish going for a baited hook.

I’m sorry sugar, stay off the INTERNET DATING SITES, they are sewers, so why go fishing there? All you will catch is chit.! I am so sorry (((hugs)))))

Dancing – none of this is ‘real’. He’s keeping you in suspense (mind games) so that when he does contact you you will be so grateful you will fall into his arms. Ox is right……….RUN

DW
I’m not at home now. But later tonight I will email Donna requesting her to send my email address to you. You can do the same and ask her to send your email to me.
I must say that after this last post I’m more concerned. At first it seemed like he was borderline or perhaps had emotional issues. But this last email sounds like he is trying to dive into your soul.
It’s like he is trying to convince you how important is that he know you inside and out. That is the biggest red flag of all. Because that information would give him your hooks, your vulnerabilities. Its hard to write on this phone, will post more later.

“You are once-in-a-lifetime, a uniquely special person. I am in love with you and our relationship means so much to me.”

This is THE biggest, most SINGLE indicator that this guy if he is not an outright SPATH, he’s definitely toxic!!

I’m observing something here that I want to share with you (Sky, DO NOT take this personally, PLEASE).

While you say you understand he’s not “quite right” in some MANY WAYS and has shown you NUMEROUS red flags, you are STILL looking for someone to validate your oxytocin ridden hope that this man is ANYTHING but other than what he IS. Okay, having said that, I think you’re globbing into Sky’s interpretation that somehow you need to “TEST” this man before he doesn’t “Pass” before you STOP NOW AND HEAD FOR THE HILLS!!!!!!

DW, GET OUT OF THIS “RELATIONSHIT”. There were quite a few things in quotes in his emails, something that my spath use to do to me when he was being “sarcastic” or not taking me seriously. This guy is using you as a piece of ass and nothing more. He got his hooks in and KNEW that your vulnerability was a SEXUAL ONE. They ALL know this!! I don’t know if you shared with him about NOT having sex during your marriage, but if you did, THAT IS HIS HOOK RIGHT NOW!!!!

Bastards. Man oh man.

Another thing, and I”ll reiterate AGAIN, DW, is that when you jump into bed with a man, you LOSE SELF RESPECT and you lose HIS respect (not that he ever respected you in the first place by the way, you would have been nothing more than a challenge until he tired of waiting and decided to find another victim to screw), therefore this gives him LICENSE to start his SPATHY behaviors in EXACTLY what you’re seeing now IE: He’s not texting back!!!!!!!! He long ago started the games, DW. WHY WOULD YOU CONSIDER PLAYING AT ALL????????????

I think ANYONE that tells you to go further with this man is OFF THEIR ROCKER!!!!!! HE DIDN”T PASS THE TEST FROM THE GET GO!!!! And I don’t think Sky will encourage you to keep “testing” this garbage can of a man.

NOW YOU ARE AWARE!! it’s up TO YOU to do something about it.

You came here because you KNEW something wasn’t right. That was a GOOD THING…. You did it because despite your oxytocin high, DW, YOU KNOW that you can now TRUST YOUR GUTT.

GET OFF the dating sites. They are INCREDIBLY dangerous. And no EH is NO BETTER than match, chemistry, plenty of fish or ANY other site. no site is “Safe” from these bastards and their MANY days spent fishing for victims.. DO NOT BE ONE, DW.

Jump ship RIGHT NOW. You don’t need ENCOURAGEMENT to test more or to stay.

Go with your gut. It’s what put you here about it in the first place!!

YOU CAN DO IT!

LL

Hey there Dancing Warrior!
Thanks for sharing your new sweeties post. It revealed all you need to know.

Your relationship has already been set up and defined. You are his rescuer. SOOO!!! Which are you?? Are you his mommy or his therapist???!!

He’s this age and that articulate, yet he needs your help to be a decent person b/c it didn’t occur to him that something was off, YET…. his core is just fine so he really isn’t “off” after all??? That’s a hell of a convoluted message, backpeddling in the same post!!

Well. At least you know that by being his woman, when he messes up, you know who to blame, it’s easy!! Just look in the mirror!! (b/c after all… if you fail to FIX him, then it’s YOUR fault!)

Amazing how quickly your relationship skipped over mutually beneficial respect stage and went straight to the beginning of the end stages of a bad marriage. But I’m guessing this guy has had a lot of practice, and he only needs the RIGHT woman to resolve his bad behavior issues.

SO textbook abuse dynamics. Pedophiles “groom” their victims. So do abusers. It’s all exploitation and emotional power plays in order to get control over the prey.

And YES, you are his PREY.

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