By | December 12, 2008 39 Comments

Bernie Madoff: The accomplishment of an entrepreneur or a psychopath?

Last night was the final night of a course in social gerontology I taught at the University of Bridgeport. I left the class feeling optimistic about humans. While walking to my car I reflected on an interview of Dr. Charlotte Perry, Medical Anthropologist at UCSF. When asked about the needs of aging African Americans she said,

“I did a study in the Southeastern part of the United States of a large group of widows living in subsidized housing. The widows who were “weller” (for lack of a better term) were in fact taking care of those in the housing complex that weren’t as well. The housing complex management took no responsibility for making assessments on health status beyond the initial application that showed that applicants were able to manage their daily lives. People didn’t come forth and say, “Well, now I’m unable to do this,” because if they did, they would no longer be able to live there. What we found was that younger widows were taking care of those who were frail.”

The “weller widows” don’t get much press but I believe they actually reflect the values and beliefs of most humans.

On the ride home, I was jolted out of my euphoria by News Radio 88 which had quite a different story to tell. It is alleged that one of Wall Street’s most trusted investment advisors, Bernie Madoff has actually been a fraud. He stands accused of the largest Ponzi scheme in history. The losses may approach 50 billion dollars.

When I got home, I emailed my cyber-friend who is securities fraud investigator, asking, “Is Bernie Madoff a con artist?” This morning on awakening I eagerly opened her reply hoping to read a long story of some terrible mistake. The email said only, “Of course.”

The Wall Street Journal has the most detailed account I could find of the unraveling of Madoff’s life. FBI agent Theodore Cacioppi said Madoff’s investment advisory business had “deceived investors by operating a securities business in which he traded and lost investor money, and then paid certain investors purported returns on investment with the principal received from other, different investors, which resulted in losses of approximately billions of dollars.”

The WSJ also tells the story of Madoff the entrepreneur who started his company with “$5,000 he saved from a lifeguarding at Rockaway Beach in Queens and a job installing underground sprinkler systems, according to a 2000 report in a trade magazine, Wall Street + Technology.” Lifeguard to Wall Street vanguard? does sound a little far-fetched for anyone but a sociopath/psychopath.

Is it possible Madoff is a sociopath? or maybe one of Paul Babiak’s psychopathic Snakes in Suits?

In Chapter 12, of Unmasking the Psychopath, Dr. Ethyl Spector Person compares entrepreneurs to psychopaths. She states, “In their personality styles, both psychopaths and entrepreneurs are action oriented and innovative rather than reactive and inhibited. In particular, they utilize manipulation of the interpersonal field”¦In the entrepreneur, domination and the will to power are incorporated into the ego ideal and therefore stand at considerable psychic distance from primitive sadistic wishes”¦Sadism must be vented (in the psychopath), in order to preserve the sense of self; sadism saturates the interpersonal enactment of intra-psychic dramas and ultimately leads to downward drift in the lives of psychopaths.”

Can we infer from the above quote that sadism and downward drift differentiate the psychopath from the entrepreneur?

I’ll leave you with the story of one of Madoff’s alleged victims. “Susan Leavitt of Tampa Bay, Fla., said she had several million dollars of inherited money invested in the firm and added $500,000 earlier this year. A stay-at-home mother with two children, the 46-year-old Ms. Leavitt says she is considering going back to work. “That was my nest egg for the children, and my future. I’ll never see much back, I’m sure,” she said.”

I move we put disadvantaged African American widows in charge of Wall Street, the Banks, the Auto Industry and the country. Anyone else for that?

For more information on the scam, read this report on Bernard Madoff arrested over alleged $50 billion fraud on Yahoo News.

To read an interview of Madoff from 2000, visit CNN.

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Elizabeth Conley

Why not. Moral fitness is the most important kind.

It is interesting the role of sociopath in business and the arts.
I just came across a woman who was married/lover to artists in four different arts. She was a psychopath and credited with being the FLAME, the FUEL of these great artists.

But some ides in ruin, others were probbaly sociopaths themselves- but it gave me pause. The financial industry does SEEM to be driven by a FEW sociopaths- or perhaps it survives despite a FEW sociopaths. I wondered about these artists and thought perhaps this woman had drained these artists rather than fueled them. That perhaps we, society, missed out on greater works because she was in the picture) literally and figuratively. I am going to write about her in my newsletter.

BUT some DIED in ruin ( I swear I type only this poorly on LF) ; )

Ox Drover

I think this whole “bail out plan” the way it is structured is going TO the psychopaths who are “business and industry” leaders who have gotten the country into this fix in the first place, rather than to the victims who have been defrauded (the public.)

One of the best movies I have seen on a psychopathic “businessman” is the story called “There Will be Blood” staring Daniel Day-Lewis as an early “oil man” psychopath named “Daniel.”

The story in the above article about the healthier of the low-income widows taking care of the less healthy widows so they could stay in their homes instead of nursing homes doesn’t suprise me at all. Many such unofficial networds of people helping each other could be written.

Most, in my opinions of official “social services” tend to be “helping” people the way cutting off the tail of a starving dog and feeding it to him would help the dog.


Yes, “of course.”

I remember reading this quote by Robert Hare…….”I always said that if I wasn’t studying psychopaths in prison, I’d do it at the stock exchange,”

People must have their eyes wide open when dealing with the financial industry. They want your money and you cannot sue them for losing it. Any settlement for losses due careless risk taking on the part of a broker (for which they received commissions and fees) comes via arbitration. The deck is stacked against the broker’s average client who is expected to use “due diligence” and know all the fine points of sophisticated market trades.

The disadvantaged African American widows are teaching by example. It goes back to what we learned in kindergarten……..remember?……….wasn’t there a book?

“Let’s all hold hands and stick together.”

It’s empowering and makes for stronger, kinder, and better social groups!


I didn’t like the “hurry, hurry, hurry … give us the money” routine. Give me a break here. These folks aren’t even willing to give up a few paychecks to keep their companies afloat. Oh, just give us the money and we aren’t giving up a thing … no waiver of days worked for no pay, no giving back vacation days, sick days … no taking salary cuts going back to former pay scales? Not willing to tighten their belts to stay afloat … just fork over the money! Incredibly arrogant to say the least.


Dr. Leedom: Madoff was quoted the other night … that he knew he was going to prison for what he did. Big deal … they gave him 20 years and he’s out in how many? As a multi-billionaire!

Just showing these creeps getting away with this crap is the reason the average Joe Schmoe and Jane Schmoe do what they do. What is 20 years out in less than 10? A slap on the wrist. Put them in prison for the rest of their lives and then will see the nonsense STOP!


Ox Drover


Even public hangings, drawings and quartering and beatings, transportation to Australia, none of these barbaric tortures stopped crime. The psychopaths don’t think they will get caught.

Heck, even the chance for public crucifiction didn’t stop the thieves who were crucified with Christ, they had probably walked by 1,000 crosses with others hanging on them for the same crimes they died for, but they went ahead and stole anyway. You can’t scare a psychopath.


Oxy: Yes, you are right!

Just pray for everyone in the world that peace and harmony triumphs.



SolentGreen ( sp ) Remember this Grindthemup and feed them to the poor ! :)~ bonapiete where’s my Beer!


Indi: You saw Solent Green? Hey, did you happen to catch King of Hearts?


Dr. Leedom:

Thank you for posting the link to the Fortune article. I am looking forward to your upcoming posts about psychopathy in the financial sector! It’s time for professionals to call national attention to this aspect of our economic meltdown and to the unrestrained psychopathy of capitalism which can result when certain personality types are able to seize control!

These individuals feed and support one another other, insuring domination and a tight web of control until the fundamentals can no longer support the scam. A weak link inevitably brings down everything and everybody. To be clear, I think capitalism is the best system around. The good things we have in this country are the result. However, sociopaths will find their way to the top, and while getting there they chew away and destroy the fundamental structure just like termites .

I watched C-Span today as three Governor’s appeared before a House committee and told the members why they needed hundreds of billions in appropriations and grants to prop up their state’s failures. Finally, one of the Representatives reminded the Governors that these fiscal problems were largely self-inflicted…..excessive spending, boondoggle programs, catering to special interests, assuming too much debt, and approving too many ENTITLEMENTS, to name a few fundamental flaws.

According to the Governors, litter will pile up, crime will escalate, problems in the schools will grow……..not because people won’t behave, but because government spending will have to be curtailed! After all, everyone knows we need generously funded government programs to keep people from throwing their fast food trash out the window on local scenic drives!

I have been watching some of the hearings from the first days of the financial crisis. Paulson, Bernacke, Alan “Bubbles” Greenspan, and Wall St.’s investment bankers all sat before members of Congress looking rather grim and pale as they explained the financial dark night they have brought upon the country. Executives from the parent company of AIG, the banking industry (commercial and investment), Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and now the auto industry…….all paraded before our legislators, explaining why they are deserving of billions of dollars in bailouts and artificial lifelines to keep themselves afloat. Where will the money come from? The Federal Reserve, a private bank, will print it out of thin air of course, give it away, and taxpayers will repay it with interest to the U.S. Treasury which then endorses the checks over to the Fed! Nice scheme!

History will tell us Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law. Look a little deeper and you will see who hatched the idea…….prominent wealthy businessmen and bankers! Sociopaths intent on screwing society to maintain personal wealth? I don’t know. It’s an interesting question to consider. Google, John D. Rockefeller sociopath.

{“A group of wealthy businessmen ”“ led by J P Morgan, Paul Warburg and John D Rockefeller ”“ intervened to pave the way for the establishment of a private central bank. With their connections, they soon put a banker-controlled plan to President Woodrow Wilson.

In a decision that would later come to haunt him, President Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law. In doing so, he effectively placed control of the US economy squarely in the hands of the private bankers, who would go on to create massive amounts of credit ”“ backed by absolutely nothing.”}

After reading the Fortune article and thinking back on Enron, and the very clear predictions I have been reading for many years about what the future might hold because of reckless policies pursued by the Federal Reserve, I am wondering about the relationship of psychopathy to all of this generally. This mess is the result of massive financial slight-of-hand , con artists, and sophisticated gimmickry on so many levels. Average citizens were encouraged to invest retirement accounts in Wall St.! Brokers were schooled in the art of dispensing comforting reassurance in the face of declining portfolios. The plan…..our ever increasing work force would continue making monthly contributions to the investment houses on the street of dreams because tax incentives created by politicians cinched it! Growth would be perpetual! We would all live happily ever after!

They have been doing all this right under our vulnerable and naïve noses!

I found the following on a blog entitled “The Economist’s View”. I could not find to whom I should attribute this excellent quote……….

“So what have we learned? In a capitalistic society too many of us don’t understand the question about screwing society. The social bias is there and a rewards system is there to nurture or encourage the sociopath. Sociopaths at the top seldom see themselves as sociopaths but as victims. We don’t know how many sociopath running capital markets it takes to bring the system crashing down along with society since just one sociopath running a large enough company can start a domino effect. ”

My deflating 2 cents!


Welcome to Game ! Cash your Gold Visa/Mast/AE/Discover Whats? your PIN #?


Dr. Leedom………….

Re: Dreier………

WOW! These guys may not wear signs, but the signs are there, aren’t they!


I saw the following in this morning’s New York Times: “Mr. Dreier was the only equity partner in the firm, and deals wee structured so that only he knew all the specifics and had access to all accounts…Mr Dreier convinced lawyers that such an arrangement was best by emphasizing that it would allow them to concentrate on their first love, the law, while he worried about running the firm. There would be no executive committee. No partners meetings. Mr Dreier would handle all adminitrative chores. For lawyers there now, the delegation of responsibility means that they are just now figuring out that Mr Dreier had let theri malpractice insurance lapse, exposing them to enormous resk if they are suced my Mr Dreier’s growing list of potential victims…”

The control, the secrecy, the reckless disregard of the consequences to the innocent lawyers and clients of the firm — sounds like a textbook sociopath to me.

Ox Drover

My father, who was an entrepreneur and eventually made the Forbes 400 list in the late 70s, had for years conned people into “investing” in his earlier projects, but since he “kept the books” he never “made any profits” to share with them so their investments were always a loss.

Later, after he did start his rocket-like rise to riches with his product, the IRS sued him for failure to file income taxes, and believe it or not, he won in court! LOL

When I worked for hiim, he was receiving checks for some products he had sold and he had an arrangement with the bank, that the president kept the checks in a locked drawer and whem my father would present a check on his account to be cashed the bank president would put enoug of the checks out of the drawers to cover them. Primarily, my father operated with CASH. Back in the 60s and 70s it was unusual but not illegal to buy things with cash, even large items.

When we left the country for a trip over seas for work, I had a large purse, with about $70,000 in cash in it, of course this was illegal to take that much cash out of the country, but I didn’t know it, but it was in MY purse so if we had been nabbed I would have been the one in trouble not dear old dad!

On the way back from Africa, he had bought some items, gold mostly, and it too was in my purse and would have been confiscated if any of the many customs checks had looked in my bag.

He also used to smuggle pre-colombian art out of South America as well as other items.

He threatened people, he hurt people, and when he did have a significant amount of money he used it like a “club” to try to beat people into submission. Even in his will when he left me and 2 of my half sibs out, (which I expected and I am sure they did too) he did it in a way that he showed he wanted to hurt us by doing that….what he didn’t count on, is that I no longer was desirous of his money or anything he had, so it’s “loss” was NO LOSS. It was blood money, I didn’t want that kind of money, it wouldn’t have bought anything of any satisfaction for me. I can’t speak for my half sibs, but for me, I had no desire for anything of his.


Please let us not forget the Honorable Barney Frank, Chrisopher Dodd, Charlie Rangel and Nancy Pelosi. Our federal government is a safe haven for sociapaths and imagine they get paid for their service. They are in charge of our fates.

Ox Drover


Yea, isn’t that a comforting thought!


Oxy & Wisernow: Yeah Blagojevich will probably move to Sin City in the state I live … all the crook from around our country end up in Sin City, USA!

Funny, there’s a huge cross on the top of the mountain range … looking down on this city. They had to tear it down a few years ago for renovation purposes… but rest assure, they erected a new one that lights up on it’s own (LOL). I guess those in the know in our State figure that a little help from God couldn’t hurt those that reside and continue living in their big egos there (LOL).

Peace … oh, and a little prayer for me having to deal with knowing all these criminals live in my state wouldn’t hurt (LOL). Thanking you in advanced.


Many thanks for EyeoftheStorm’s long post about sociopaths on Wall Street, and especially this quote:

“In a capitalistic society too many of us don’t understand the question about screwing society. The social bias is there and a rewards system is there to nurture or encourage the sociopath.”

Listen to any right-wing radio talkshow, and you will hear this scheme defended as an ideology. For the past 25 years we have seen “supply-side economics” become a religion. It posits that, as the little guys, we have to get screwed to get more. A kind of economic sado-masochism. Heaven forbid “those people” (code for African-American widows, by the way) should get something for nothing — as if doing the shit jobs in society is living on the dole.

We have come to believe that capitalism runs on extreme inequality, and that people such as this grifter are “capitalists.”

Capitalists are supposed to be people who invest in the means of production. Not gamblers, grifters, or ponzi scheme operators. But these are exactly the people glorified as heroes of our economy since the early ’80s. As if driving a fast car makes a person a mogul.

And if one objects, he is said to be a proponent of “class warfare.” Marxist. Anti-capitalist.

I would like to say I’m optimistic about this changing while the world is falling down around us. But I’m not. I think falling for the sociopath is ingrained. Believing in Big Daddies who will take care of us will be part of who we are until we attack that problem itself.

As long as people need sociopaths, sociopaths will rule. It isn’t they who need to change; it’s us.


I hope everyone is paying attention to the Bernard Madoff scam. For he did what our EXs did … on a grand scale.

I for one, hope this slime ball gets life behind bars … forced to work on a rock pile slamming boulders with a pick ax … then we can all watch to see how the scum finally does manual labor for the rest of his life.

Send the man to life in prison and lets call it a day with the likes of ALL of them … our EXs included!

Peace. It’s not us, it’s THEM!


i too escaped a sociopath/conartist relationship, but i will pay forever for the 5 years it took to escape– that exposed my children to his poison…my daughter now has fibromyalgia & latest research for that is indicative of such relationships in the past..part of the path away from him involved digging grandma’s rifle out of dad’s closet…alerting the local sheriff’s dept to my intent and ability to protect my own –
at any rate, that was 14 years in the past.
but as i walked past the telly & paused to watch our fearless financial leader make his televised play for this baillout, something caught my attention…i stood there, letting it soak in, trying to identify what exactly caught my attention…
something about his body language, about the phrasing, all of the picture was just nagging the back of my mind..
two hours later it came with a snap..
the body language, the language he had used, the phrasing…all of the above…were so similar to the same things in my ex…
i had to sit down to examine this possiblity…but the more i did, the more certain i was of the same dynamic at work..
so i don’t know about y’all, but i am definitely stashing back food, tp, and fuel…& trying to figure out how the hell to survive if the whole system is filled with sociopaths & con artists at the top, and wannabes moving into place under them…
shall we PRAY…


CarriesGuns: Yes, we know all too well who took over our country. Good news. Those that are decent that are in power are aware of this too. Rest assure, we will see big changes come down in this country. Sit back and watch. We will overcome these selfish, unscrupulous sorts. Their time has come … and I for one, am glad to see they finally get what’s coming to them … big, long jail sentences.

Peace. Have you blogged with Oxy yet? You two have something in common.


Indi: You need to find the smaller number of blogs. Those big numbered 400 and something slow my puter up.

P.S. I don’t drink beer … only once in a blue moon when someone tells me this beer taste great, you have to try it … so I will.

Did you get a puppy yet?

Ox Drover

Dear Carries,

I also “carry” and so do my sons, we have concealed carry permits and are proficient in their use.

I too worry about the nation and the psychopaths at the top, like this Madloff guy, and the hundreds (thousands?) of others in political office, like the gov of Illinois and his cronies, trying to sell a senate seat. The gov of NY on his “anti prostitution” campaign and while he was doign that he was paying prostitutes hundreds, thousands of dollars an hour for his pervesions.

I don’t really think our politicians are any more corrupt than they have ALWAYS been, I think we are just more aware of it. There have always been more psychopaths in “power” no matter whether it was a country, or a tribe, or a family, because they are dominance directed and control directed.

Look at that African “leader” who denies that his country is in a crisis with cholera! He is so “powerful” he thinks he can lie in the face of evidence and have people belivee it. Look at Hitler, Saadam, and all the other Ps we can name (long list) what makes us think that our “civilized” “leaders” are any better?

Wini seems to think that things will be different now that the dems are back in office, but look at Ted Kennedy,, look at Bill Clinton. Come on, who would believe that anything is going to be different? It is just a matter of which group gets to cut up the spoils between them. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Power brings out the worst in most normal people, and we can only imagine what it does for the Ps who are “power mad” anyway.

I too have “prepared for hard times” the way my grandparents did during the depression. First by staying out of debt for anything ever except necessities. “Make it last, make it do, do without” has always been my motto, inherited from the tales of want during the depression.

“Stay out of debt” and I have managed to do so through hard work and thrift, living BELOW my means, not above them. Fortunately though I am not rich, everything I own is paid for so if push came to shove, I could live pretty cheaply and only need cash for a few things, taxes on land etc being the only thing I would have to come up with. During the depression many people couldn’t even come up with that and lost their homes.

I don’t think we are in a RE-session, but a DE-pression and have been because of the greed of the “players on Wall street” and the corporate price gouging, and people living well ABOVE their means to keep this snow ball rolling uphill.

Poor people in our country live way above what many middle class people in other countries do. OUr buy, use, throw away and buy more mentality has become a national way of life. The entitlement mentality to be “best of everything” including large homes that are impossible to heat or cool, or pay for, large vehicles running up and down the road for every trivial errand etc. is using resources faster than they can be replaced.

The ‘loan industry” making loans to people who have no possibility to repay them for this “high end lifestyle”—it all goes together with corrupt gov’t and people who want more than they can reasonably afford. I think the house of cards is coming tumbling down. I feel intensely sorry for those people who have no savings, who have lived beyond their means to have a “better” life style and now are losing it, but it was a “no brainer” to me as I had the luxuary of my grandparents’ wisdom on how to survive. Not everyone does.

It will be some tough times, I think there were 500,000+ jobs lost last month, the most in decades. States are running out of money to pay unemployment and the federal government is printing more valueless money to loan or give them.

This is to me like cutting off the tail of a starving dog to feed it to him. It isn’t going to “help” for long. In the meantime, I think it behooves all of us to look at our life styles and make adjustments where we can in energy and financial conservation.

In other words, use good sense. As times get harder I think the psychopaths will “play harder ball” than they have in the past. They sure are not going to “down size” their life styles, but make even greater efforts to con others out of their assets.

Corporations are “psychopathic” in their very nature and I think in many ways governments are as well.


I am very good at barely gettin by – I have my chicken’s, my garden’s and $18.27 cent’s in the bank~~~!!! And my .22 and 4.10, lot’s of deere, squirril’s and turkeys!!! Guess I better learn to grow tobacco..!!


Henry I love Chickens! I had Chickens at the trailer and the neighbors complained. No one gave a shit about the lose dogs or the drug dealers just the chickens! I am so happy to be outa da hood! LOVE JJ


Indi: You always make me laugh. Beam me outta here Scotty!

Ox Drover

Henry, remember that old Charlie Daniels song “Country boys can survive?”

“I can skin a buck, I can run a trot-line”?

It’s a lot of work, but whatever needs to be done I know how, and have my sons for the muscle, so we will survive whatever happens.


Yeah Oxy he also sang “What Would You Give (In Exchange for Your Soul).

Good ole Charlie D!


An excellent Op-Ed column by Paul Krugman. It’s about Madoff and the entire Wall St. culture which breeds and supports similar activity. Krugman suggests such practices have given rise to what he calls The Madoff Economy!.

If our American economy has evolved into a Madoff economy with countless victims, are the Wall St. Madoff wannabes mirroring his pathology as well. If so, what does that say about our tolerance of it and our blindness to it as a society? Politicians, regulators who looked the other way, the Federal Reserve, innocent investors who believed what they were told, and our legislators who voted for bailouts. Talk about red flags!


Hello Carries:

There is indeed something else — notice the “hurry, hurry” around the bailout vote? Notice how the last many years have held torture and control and extreme variations in our economic situation to be “normal”?

Notice how lies are “truth” and telling the truth becomes a violation of the “patriot act”?

I keep being reminded of the Dalai Lama advising us to meditate on compassion. With compassion in our minds and hearts, we are more likely to do the right thing. And when we are wise enough (through our terrible experiences) to recognize the fraud in front of us, we can test our observation by noting whether that person also carries the vibration of compassion, or that person is hell-bent on chaos.

I believe our only way out of the current mess is through compassion –as Dr. Leedom says, the “weller” taking care of the others. The fiber of our economic system is in shreds; it no longer exists. What Madoff did is scarcely anything compared to the gutting of our nation in the past seven and some years. We could even recover from Madoff if we had jobs, measured and predictable appreciation so our houses had value, decent mortgage rates.

It was never about “bad borrowers.” It was always about a system being gutted by psychopathic thrillseekers.


And, no, it wasn’t even about greed. If it was, it would make more sense.

Carolyn A Silvers

I am so glad to discover this site. I am probably older than
all of you. I was married to a sociopath for 20 years. In those days there was not much understanding about the disorder and he had me confinced that I was the nutty one. I have been physically free of his prison for over 20 years and now in a good marriage. After my freedom I went back to school and obtained my masters in Education. However, the effects of having my personality, opinions, and dreams hyjacted pop up to haunt me in nightmares. Six wifes later, he died on my 60th birthday. I was actually happy thinking I would forget him now. However, there is not a day that his horrid face, sound of his voice, or a memory doesn’t pop into my head. I wonder if we are ever free of their control and prisons.


I believe you can be free , but you have to choose to be free !
I did this by 1. Give Him to God. 2. Forgive myself and Him.
Rape cannot be validated ! Physical , mental , Financial ! It does not matter what insignificant tiny miniscule part we play in the Movie. It is not our fault and no one deserves to be Parasitized! LOVE JJ


My mother married some sort of sociopathic narcissist (not sure of the label) who was abusive to my sister and me from the time I was 7 till I left home at 16. Back in those days there was no information or resources about abusive people. To this day, my mother doesn’t realize how harmful of a person he was and how much damage he did to us. I admire you for having the courage to face this past marriage and come out of denial about what you were dealing with. It can’t be easy looking back after so many years. It is understandable that you are still affected by it. Trauma symptoms don’t know any time table and can last a lifetime. There are some forms of therapy that address trauma specifically. Sounds like you may be a good candidate for some of those things. I hope you will find it therapeutic to talk about it here and learn about it. Maybe it will give some of this stress in your psyche an outlet of expression.

Congratulations, too, on rebuilding your life. You are a role model for many of us here.
Peace out,


Thank you JJ for the comments on rape. Needed that. Have suffered physical (before I was even a teen, by a stranger, and my family just TOTALLY ignored the whole thing) and emotional rape, and I’m here to say the emotional is MUCH WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God, how I wish the P had just beat me up and left me for dead. MUCH easeir to put behind you.


Rune: What is your definition of GREED?

Go put the word in the search engine and see what is listed under it’s headings. You’ll be surprised.


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