By | January 26, 2011 31 Comments

Locking up bad fathers is good for kids

A new study by Economist David Neumark at the University of California – Irvine found that married, two-person households are not always best for children. The study found that the increased incarceration of minority men contributed to fewer minority high school dropouts.

Read Kids are all right with just mom, on the University of California – Irvine website.

Story suggested by a Lovefraud reader.

Posted in: Scientific research

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Ox Drover

I think they should not just study minority men, but incarcerated individuals in general.

The study makes sense to me though, if it takes these people out of the gene pool at least for a while and takes them out of the Relationship pool for the duration of their incarceration as well. We do know from studies that 25% of the incarcerated individuals at any one time are PSYCHOPATHIC, and we also know that the AVERAGE SCORE of all incarcerated individuals is 22 (30 is what it takes to be a “certified psychopath”, but 22 is a highly UNDESIRABLE PERSON) so with the highest rate per capita of incarcerated individuals in history or of any other country, the US has more of its psychopaths penned up than any other country. There are about 2 million individuals who are incarcerated, which means that about 25% would be 500,000 psychopaths behind bars THIS MINUTE. There are also another approximately 5 million on PAROLE at this minute, so almost a million psychopaths are on parole and the other 1.5 million in prison average a score of 22, and the other 4 million on parole average 22 PCL-R score, so I think it behooves us all to STAY away from anyone with a criminal record, no matter how they claim to be “reformed” the ODDS are definitely against it as their scores are way too high.

The number of children being born to unmarried mothers is and has been rising for a number of years (and of course we know that unmarried mothers are not all “alone” as far as relationships, committed or otherwise, are concerned) but it does also show that more and more parents (of both sexes) are “single” parents, raising the child(ren) by themselves many times without any assistance from the other DNA donor, and the number of grandparents who are raising their grandkids either officially or unofficially is sky rocketing, which makes me think that NEITHER parent is fit to raise the children, and they are being raised in the same environment that their parents (who are unfit parents) were raised in, and have a double whammy of bad genes from both sides, so I would estimate that those children are at HIGH risk for problems from the prospects of both environment AND genetics…

However, “statistics” are not always indicative of the CAUSE of things, “STATISTICALLY, a man with one foot on a red hot stove and the other one on an ice cube is COMFORTABLE.” LOL

It does make sense to me though, that if the severely dysfunctional are taken out of the lives of their women and children that they would be better off. The problem is I think that there is a while “industry” out there telling women that they should “be supportive” of their inmate and take the arsehole back into their homes when they are released—not because this is to the benefit of the women, but because it is a benefit to the state by having someone else assume responsibility for these inmates upon release rather than the state having to do so.

Only 40% of the inmates released on parole do NOT violate their parole by committing another crime that they are caught and convicted of (that’s about the only way you can get busted for parole violation—JUST breaking the “rules” won’t get you busted back to prison.) The parole officials know this and the convicts know this.

Back when I drove 400 miles to visit my P-son in prison, I saw hundreds of other families visiting their inmates, bringing children. There seemed to be many more Hispanic families visiting than either white or black families, but this was in Texas so there was a higher proportion of Hispanic inmates in the prison as well. However, studies I have read show that Hispanic families tend to be more supportive of their family members, regardless of what crimes they have committed. Black and white families are somewhat less supportive of members of their families who have committed repeat or very violent crimes.

My “friends” who knew about my son and his crime advised me that “he’s your son, you can’t give up on him.” Which was of course as we know now, the WORST possible advice a parent of a psychopath could have.

Personally, I am for the “three strikes” laws, and wish the states who had them would enforce them much more rigorously. I think it would take many psychopaths out of the general population of free people, cut down on the number of children they produced and the women (men) they victimized.

lesson learned

What a GREAT article!

I could go for hours on this one. Ox, your perspective is particularly interesting and I relate to it. Where I live, and have for many years, while married to P, he was HALF hispanic, BUT the MAJORITY of those incarcerated with him (when he was in and out of jail) WERE WHITE!! I got the opportunity to speak with a lot of the women who brought their children with them for visits, as I did early on in the marriage. ALL were WHITE……..including myself and ALL were going to take their men back when they got out, INCLUDING ME! During that time and even when exP was in treatment for drugs/alcohol (several times), there was MARITAL COUNSELING that encouraged women to stay with these men, having been incarcerated or not, which leads me to the atrocities that I think bedevil many women and society as a whole in that the institution ITSELF of marriage, somehow “heals” or “cures” everything. That a child CANNOT grow up in a healthy environment unless it’s a two parent household. BULLSHIT!!! As I saw with my exP AND with exPOS, the children did FAR WORSE with that parent in the household rather than NOT. FAR WORSE. Admittedly, I was in my relationshit with exPOS AFTER their father left and while it had a great impact upon my children (I had my head too far up exPOS’s ass), he never LIVED with us and his dealings with my children were VERY brief, however, when exP beat my eldest son up for the first time, it was the LAST time. That ended the marriage. While my relationshit with exPOS was wrong, I can tell you, looking back now, that I’m GRATEFUL my children did not ultimately end up living with him too. Had he gotten a divorce before I figured out what he was, and he had wanted to marry me or live with me, I WOULD HAVE DONE IT.

I think it’s so obvious that kids fair better without a sociopathic parent, incarcerated or not, black/white/purple, the effects are ALWAYS devastating when having to live with one. They mindscrew the children as well as their mother. I WISH there was more education with regards to personality disordered people and how they impact the lives of children. Educating MORE women about the impact of living with a sociopath and learning how to get out. I bet there are thousands and thousands of women out there who live with one and like many of us before, don’t know what they’re dealing with while they and their children suffer in silence. UGH! That’s so hard to think about.

Thanks for the article. Very interesting stuff.




OMG. I totally agree. One GOOD parent is better than children watching abuse. My g/f stayed married “for the kids” and they are all in therapy now..esp the oldest, who remembers watching his Dad abuse her daily…and then he finally broke his age 16, after being beat up by him physically and verbally abused all of his life. My g/f said that she idolized MY life, (imagine that), being alone to raise my children in a peaceful happy home. She wouldn’t leave him because she knew he had “issues” and she “loved” him!

Well, I loved my children MORE. I took a big chance of living in a shelter with my children when he left..which I told him to do…but I didn’t tell him to leave us penniless and homeless.
I ended up buying a house for us, and raising my children alone….which was a big struggle…but, I didn’t want them to grow up in a battlefield ….watching him abuse me and them.

It doesn’t matter how many people raise children in a household….but if even ONE is abusive, the kids will grow up with major issues.

I had both parents, five kids…and a socio mom. She destroyed all of Dad also. He died from the stress from her…and we all have anxiety issues. The oldest , my sister, is a sociopath who has 3 committed suicide, two hate her.

The whole problem with our society is because of the endless cycle of abuse, poor parenting…dysfunctional homes…breeding psychopaths to different degrees.

Maybe when the govt steps in and mandates classes in psychology, relationships, and parenting…and we educate people about creating monsters….we may have a chance to save the world that we are destroying….we are doing it to ourselves.

I see so many people who have children they cannot afford…sometimes situational because ONE leaves the other to raise them alone…then they are stressed out…neglect their children and/or abuse them….and they grow up and repeat the pattern….viscious cycle.

My parents had so many financial problems but kept having children! Who suffers?…..

I did it alone without the socio around. I’m glad he chose not to see his children all of these years…and now, the cats in the cradle…….They don’t want any part of him.

Thank God. They will NEVER let anyone abuse them. Their “role model” (ME) taught them that they can do it alone…if they get an education ..and good career…they have thier ticket to freedom…..and always will be able to escape abuse.

If I didn’t have a teaching degree…I would be dead today. He was Scott Peterson.


Now if we could just get the article which should be the other side of that same coin:
“Locking up bad mothers is good for kids”

Statistically “The kids are all right with just Dad” is more accurate.

Interesting how the research only ever goes one way.

As for the conclusions applying solely to minorities, that doesn’t even deserve airtime. No examination whatsoever as to why incarceration of white men only went up 1% in the same timeframe. Oxy’s point about statistical correlation not being equivalent to causality is a very important one.

Ox Drover

Annie, I agree with you, LOCKING UP BAD PARENTS is a good thing for the kids. Unfortunately, most of the time “bad parents” don’t go far enough to break the law, or even if they do, unless they seriously wound or kill the child no one reports it and the kids go on living in hell on earth.

The policy of “reuniting the family” at any and all costs is horrible in my opinion, and there are some families that should NOT be “united.” Problem is though, with the foster care system over loaded with kids who are bruised and beaten and no where to put them, and not enough adoptive homes, where would you put the kids taken away from the abusive parents?

I am very much for assisting single mothers and fathers with education so they can get better and more stable jobs, but with the economy in the pits for everyone I don’t see that coming along very soon. I raised children for 7 years alone, with a tiny amount of child support and we lived in poverty while I went to school, I got loans and grants and worked almost full time and managed to get through on my own with that small amount of help. I also had a community of friends who were single parents and students and we supported and helped each other get through it all.


I hear you Oxy. However my point was that we somehow only ever speak about locking up bad fathers, with the unspoken assumption that child and spousal abuse only ever goes one way. Statistically that’s just not true. I just wish we could start to get a more balanced and accurate treatment of this issue.

My life would have been entirely different had my mother been removed from the family. My father, while not perfect, was a kind, loving, fun person. Just this year I realized that all of my happy memories were when he was around and my mother wasn’t. If he had been raising us alone we would have spent time with our grandparents (both sets), aunts, uncles, cousins, etc… Instead my mother managed to keep us isolated from every good person and influence (and cry “victim” at the same time btw). Life was fun and happy when we were with my father (in the early days before his soul was sucked out by my mother).

I would have given anything to be raised in a single-parent family – just not the way this article envisions.

Ox Drover

Dear Annie,

I agree, and BloggerT’s site (it is on the blog roll here) about female abusers is very interesting. Even with sexual abuse, women are as bad or worse than male abusers, and he has the studies and statistics to back it up. The media almost seems to act as if female abusers of any kind are a RARE thing, but it is not the case at all.

Many times abusive women will also cry “rape” or “child abuser” in the middle of a divorce and wreck the life of their male partner who is totally innocent.


I brought my younger sister to the doctor with bleeding welts on her back from my mother beating her with a belt.
This was back in the 70’s.
Today, the doctor would have been required by law to report her.
Thank God for the change of laws.

I see many women during the day in stores alone..calling children names..ignoring them..etc. It breaks my heart.

And, life goes on….cycles repeat.


Hi tobehappy,
That must have been frightening – that took a lot of courage on your part. Did the doctor say or do anything to help either of you?

All: For the record, I’m not trying to whitewash fathers here. I’ve seen enough, and been victimized by men myself enough, to know that there are many many horrible fathers that children would be entirely better off without, and I agree with the above comments that children are infinitely better off with the sociopathic parent removed. It’s just that we have this awful double standard, and the truth is that we don’t protect so many of the vulnerable in our societies.

lesson learned


I understand your perspective. NEITHER of my parents were “fit” to parent at all, however we were left in charge with my mother at the helm. Hell,it wouldn’t have been so bad had she not been a virtual ACCOMPLICE in my stepfather molesting me. It wasn’t until she died that I realized that she hated me………just like her mother hated her……..

WIsh I had been put up for adoption. The ONE person in the world who should have kept me safe and believed when I told her about my molestation, was my mother. But she did not.

It’s interesting, your perspective………..I feel pissed off with you describing it. ANd that is a direct result of the lack of my mother’s validation and protection.

As a mother of six, three of whom were molested by a neighbor guy (They went before a grand jury and his ass now sits in prison for a VERY long time), I could NOT imagine not believing my children. It was that belief that worked with the DA on the case to get this man prosecuted……but it was my girls who were so brave to go and tell their stories before grand jury…..

I can’t imagine not supporting my children. Not like that.

I”m sorry for your experiences and I understand how painful that is. Somehow, I wonder if it’s not MORE painful, because this woman that carried you in her womb for nine months, I would automatically assume would be protective……

I know I felt that way about my babies. My mother did not about me. I cannot imagine it.


Ox Drover

There are lots of reports and talk about “parent’s rights” but I think it should be CHILDREN’s RIGHTS, not parent’s rights. Children should have the right to be safe and nurtured, but many times because “parent’s rights” are protected over the right of the children to be safe, this is not done. It breaks my heart!


Ox, did you get my note Sun or Mon? I forget what topic I posted it under.

Ox Drover

Dear Dancing warrior,

I think I did, but I can’t remember what thread either! LOL CRS!!!!! Today when we were in town my son and I drove over to Radio Shack which is in a part of town we don’t usually go and I saw where a building had been torn down and I said “Oh, I didn’t know they tore that down>” My son said “You said the same thing the last time you were by here a couple of months ago.” LOL I’ve got CRS but all I can do is laugh about it. It bothered me really badly when the plane crash first happened, and it HAS GOTTEN BETTER, but my short term memory still isn’t what it was even a day before the crash. I still have to make notes on things and concentrate really hard to remember things. I use a lot of “aids” like lists and pill minder boxes, and that sort of thing so I don’t forget things. I tie my car keys to my purse so I don’t lose them, but I think I am probably as “good” as I’m gonna get by now.. My psychiatrist told me “your memory will come back” but that was 6 1/2 years ago and it still isn’t good enough for me to hold down a job even if I wanted to. Just glad I am old enough I could retire when I did.


Thank you LL

I’m so sorry to hear that you neither of your parents were fit. And I’m glad to hear that you supported and loved your own children. I was lucky that I had a loving father, and loving grandparents (at least until my Mother moved us away when I was 12). It sounds like you didn’t get even that, which makes your love and dedication to your own children that much more of a credit to you.

There’s another thing that gets me p*** off; so often when people speak about growing up with bad mothers (it’s extremely rare that I’ve ever seen children of abusive fathers face this) the threat of ‘labels’ comes up, with the inference that we are irretreivably damaged and bound to repeat for the next generation. Statistically that’s probably *more* true, but it isn’t always true – it isn’t even mostly true. There are so many good parents who’ve managed to overcome the influence from abusive mothers – and fathers. You’re proof of that.

I made the decision not to have children because I hadn’t been able to get anyone to talk about what I went through and didn’t understand what was going on. All I ever heard were versions of “Well, she did the best she could”, etc… So I really thought that, if that’s the best she could do, that there was a good possibility that I could do the same if I had children myself. I now know that’s not true, but still don’t regret my decision – I just didn’t want to take the risk of passing any of that on.

There is a part of your story that’s more common than you may realize. I belong to a trauma self-help group. Over the last year or so at least 5 of the female members having been struggling with the fact that they were abused by stepfathers, brothers, neighbours, etc… In every case their mother either knew and did nothing, or in some cases set it up to happen. Several were threatened or violently abused when they tried to tell. The stories are awful. One woman recently confronted her mother – her mother’s reaction was horrifically mind-f***ing. I know it doesn’t necessarily help, but I wanted you to know that you’re definitely not alone in that aspect.



The doctor knew my mother…small town, back then. I asked him if she was “schitzophrenic”…a new word I learned in high shcool.. He said, “possibly”.
I was afraid to report her. From the outside, everyone thought we were one big loving family…My mother was so charming, everyone thought she was a great mom…because we were dressed well…went to church every Sunday. She was “mommy dearest” …I can’t even watch that movie! I cry so hard!

Anyway, her good was SO good…cooked hot meals for us…did our was spotless…dressed us well…etc..

But, the important things…like love, respect, affection, talking to us…was missing.

She was angry, verbally abusive, called us names..hit us..punished us cruelly…and controlled us.

My poor sister….had suicide attempts …ran away from home…did drugs…and has been on Mental Disability her entire life. She is so intelligent and loving …she could have been something great…

She was on meds her whole life.

And I would never want to “shame” her or our family. It would have been humiliating. AND…I felt sorry for her my entire life….hence…”trauma bonding”….!

lesson learned


Thank you,I appreciate your kind words.

I also appreciate you sharing about mothers who did the same thing to their children. In this capacity, even with all of my grievous errors in judgment, I truly love my children and could not EVER imagine not believing them. When I found out exP had violated our firstborn son, I was devastated. This came out during his treatment(I don’t want to go into that again right now), and was something completely unknown to me. When I had to confront my son with what I knew, it was no less than DEVASTATING! I hadn’t a clue. He had violated my son while I was at school in the evenings……..

I hated exP for that. But I think I hated myself more because I didn’t know. My three girls told me about the neighbor guy and the statute of limitations had not run out, so the school counselor that they told first, called and then called me…they were afraid to tell me……..they didn’t want to hurt me….yet another devastation, but I stayed by ALL of their sides…..

Even that doesn’t matter, what matters to me is that someone could know that their child was so very violated and not love them or care enough to show them that they are believed…..

IT just devastates me every single time. Because I KNOW how it is not to be believed.

I got slapped straight across the face when I told my mother about my stepfather I still remember the look on her face. SHe hated me with a passion that I cannot describe. To this day, with as much as I love my children, I could never imagine striking my own child if they told me that their father had molested them.

It’s unfathomable to me. And disgusting in every single way.

I”m sorry you made that decision, but I understand why you did, Annie. And if you’re okay with it, then that’s a good thing. Iwish more thought that way sometimes, but given your posts here, I think you would have been a great mom 🙂

I hope you feel complimented by that.

Bless your heart.



((((hugs)))) (if that’s OK)


We were posting at the same time. ((((hugs)))) to you too. And I appreciate your kind words – more than I can say.

lesson learned

(((((((((((((((( annie )))))))))))))))))))))))




We are survivors! HUGS back atcha!


Oxy said it ALL. When the courts forget “parental rights” and start focusing on “children’s rights” we just maybe able to break the cycle. I would like to borrow your label Oxy, because it fits so well. Most of these abusive and neglectful parents are nothing more than egg donors and sperm donors and do not deserve any “rights” whatsoever. Most state laws are written to protect “best interest of the child”. The courts however, have a warped, uneducated sense of what this means. This is a very interesting study and I also agree it should be done on “parents” and not just “fathers”.

My heart goes out to all who have posted here with their own personal stories of abusive parents. You did nothing to deserve the treatment you received. I am so sorry.

Love – MiLo

Ox Drover

Dear MiLo,

How are things with you and your grandson? I hope that your daughter, the child’s DNA donor has backed off some and that you feel more safe. I just got a 3 year “stay of execution” in that my P son’s parole application was denied for another 3 years before he can go back and request parole again….so I am still not “free” just delayed execution at this point, but that is better than nothing and I am very grateful to God that he didn’t get out.

My attorney said that he thought if we had not protested that he would have gotten out this time, but all three of the parole board members who reviewed his case voted against him getting out at this time, but did set 3 years for his next review instead of the most they could have which would have been 5 years, so there was SOME sympathy for the poor boy at least.

I am just grateful for the reprieve I have been given though, and God heard my prayers and I can only trust that whatever happens is what is best. There was a time when I wanted him out, but I didn’t pray to God that He would give him parole, just that “whatever YOU think is best, God, as you know his heart” and he didn’t get parole, so I had to trust that was the best thing even though it wasn’t what I wanted at the time….now it is the same thing, I just have to trust God that God is running the universe the way it should be run and that there is a purpose. The Bible tells me that “all things work together for good to those that Love the Lord” and I must believe that! So many times “bad” things have happened and I felt that it was the end of the world, but later it turned out that if that “bad” thing hadn’t happened, a better thing wouldn’t have happened later. So I just have to trust that this is the right thing.


Oxy –

Thanks for asking. The legal part is all but over, just a matter of straightening out some technical mistakes made by the court. No shock there, it was a technical mistake made by the court 5 years ago that vacated our custody and got us into this mess. We once again have legal custody and nothing can or will change that. Daughter does have visitation, with a stipulation right in visitation order – child must approve of all phone calls and visits. We have given Grand the control he so desperately needed in this part of his life. She is trying to wear “the mask of change” – she has not changed and now I know she never will. With therapy we are helping Grand deal with it. I think we are going to be OK – in a therapy session with Mom, he told her “I have parents who love and take care of me. I will always live with them. You can be the Mommy that visits.” Amen prayers answered.

I so understand praying “whatever YOU think is best”, because it was beyond me at some points exactly what was best. I had faith that only God knew.

I am so glad that the parole board did not let your son free. You can deal with it again in another 3 years. Until then you can be confident that you kept a lot of others from getting hurt, including him. I wish it would have been 5 years because like you said that does show the parole board did have some sense of sympathy and that is unbelievable.

I guess we must keep doing whatever it is we are doing and leave all else up to God. I know when subjects like this one show up on the board, I must get my soap box out and preach “best interest of the child” for all those children that don’t have voices.


All the comments are interesting, esp with what I am having to fight against. I am soon starting mediation, which I know is useless and have been told such by some mediators who refuse to do it for us, but this one mediating center was approached by ex and they say they will do it even if the others won’t because they believe that the child needs and loves both parents.

The mediator said to me on the phone that even if he had been a jerk or abusive to a kid in the past, that shouldn’t paint a bleak future because she believes people change, particularly after separation. I was flabbergasted, since it flies against what research has shown. I am only agreeing to doing this to stall court action – can’t afford go to court because he has effectively screwed us financially with his refusal to pay the proper amount of child support.

I don’t know how much to give in and concede with visitation rights. He is using the kids to continue his harassment. If I didn’t have to see him for the handovers or have to discuss kids issues, it would be so much easier. That is why I am only giving him every other weekend for the younger kids. The older ones don’t even want to see him, and he is really mad about it and keeps harassing them.

Now one has started school, just after a couple of days, he is asking me to report to him how he is doing. And he is asking to come into the house to fix some things for the kids enjoyment. He wants me to answer him and not ignore him (which I do when I don’t want to reply). He even offered for me to be out of the house, but I don’t trust him alone in the house, and the people he has suggested as third-party observers and all his allies, so I don’t trust them either. I could name friends of mine but they wouldn’t want to be near him and I also don’t want him to know who my friends are because he harassed whoever he finds out has been talking to me.

Just yesterday, a friend, whose husband is very close to ex, called to say that I should not deprive my kids of their father. Worse, she said that no matter how bad he was before, I should not give up on our relationship because God hates divorce. I tried to tell her that was a misinterpetration but decided that it was useless trying to argue the point. I don’t know how to explain to these people that marriage is not meant to be a life-long oppression of another human soul. In any case, they don’t believe he is evil or abusive in nature, and that he now knows he has to change and has improved. However, change has nothing to do with “improving”. It is the correction of the deeply embedded thinking that one is entitled to favored treatment. If he plays the victim, then no matter how nice he is, he hasn’t changed and sooner or later, the full-blown version of abuse will return.

I love my children, and it is the thought of their future that keeps me going. But the fact that we have children make it so hard for me to get away. It is also hard for others to keep their noses out because they think they are advocating for my kids when they talk to me about how my kids need their father. (Ex keeps telling others that my children miss him but I won’t let them see him.) Meanwhile, my poor kids wonder why adults don’t want to protect them but are intent on protecting their father and give him help and sympathy?

Now he has moved in right near by just so he can keep an eye on us. My kids are freaking out. I can’t get an intervention order because all the physical assaults happened before we separated and apart from the one assault charge has no criminal record. He is a card-carrying Keeper of Morals, like Stephen Green in the other thread. I don’t think he is a s’path, just terribly immature, controlling and manipulative. He actually thinks that is the right way to love his family – through power and control. And he claims to want to have counsel to change but either goes to people who are unaware of domestic violence and get manipulated by him, or to those who know him well and won’t go anywhere near him.

My youngest is under school age, so there is a long way to go, but sometimes I don’t know how to hang on for that long.


While there seems to be a correlation, I’m uncomfortable with the information presented in believing that incarceration of father is a causal factor in children having lower drop out rates. Also, while we often use school performance as a chief indicator of a child’s success; that is only part of the story. Another possibility is that the children of these fathers have learned to work the system better and don’t drop out of HS but still have a higher propensity toward sociopathy themselves. So now maybe we have a generation of more educated sociopaths who know how to stay out of jail. While economics is great at finding trends and presenting questions; answers are found with expansive, long-term studies. Find 1000+ of these specific children and give them a test to measure sociopathic behaviors. Also, take a look at prevelance of minor crimes, drug use/abuse and self-destructive behaviors such as eating disorders and cutting. Ruling out attachment disorders wouldn’t be a bad idea either. My point is the article is a seed of information and shouldn’t be taken as an answer to anything.

Ox Drover

Slthomp, I agree that the article is simply one piece of a much larger puzzle in sociology.

It IS interesting to me though that the crime rate has dropped in the past few years as more and more people are incarcerated. And, it is known that about 25% of the inmate population is psychopathic so as more people are locked up, more psychopaths are taken off the street—and since psychopaths commit such a high percentage of crimes, it stands to reason that crime should fall.

Also, the AVERAGE score of inmates on the PCL-R is 22 which means of course with a score of 30 being “psychopathic” that there is a higher percentages of “nearly psychopathic” bad guys in prison too. If they are locked up they aren’t siring children and they aren’t committing crimes. Also stands to reason their kids would be better off with them out of the picture as well.


Finally! This is a long awaited article for me and I hope to read it in People magazine. More people need to hear this, more colleges need to teach this new way of thinking. Times have changed, family needs a new definition; it should include only those that respect, love, and have our best interest. And should exclude all abusive persons, no matter their position in the family tree. We can’t choose our family but mothers, parents or anyone that cares should not allow the abuse of the innocent children that did not ask to be here.


The fact that we only speak of “locking up bad fathers” is disturbing. What about bad mothers? Are we that biased? Are we all men haters on here? Do we not recognize the fact that abusive mothers exist? I continue to be astonished at the stereotype that prevails in this blog and in society at large. Believe it or not, there are just as many abusive mothers as fathers. The difference is that abusive mothers are mostly passive aggressive, psychological, emotional, verbal abusers. This is because they don’t very often have the opportunity to be physically dominant. I have met more fathers and their children who are victims of Sociopathic, Narcissistic, angry, hateful, mothers. These women have a disordered/dysfunctional personality that allows them to create their own reality. They believe they are more significant, they are entitled, they are more important and relevant, and they lie inveterately, if not pathologically, to destroy the credibility of the father, and “win” control of their children. This “win” has the prize of financial gain and the right to continue to denigrate the children’s father with the blessing of the court. This is the single greatest civil rights issue of our time. I get a sick feeling when I realize there are many mothers on this blog that scare me with their disdain and dehumanizing fathers as a group. I believe many of you are victims of Sociopathic men, but I also believe some of you are playing the Sociopaths favorite game, which is to point the finger at Dad, and lie till you die about your own accountability in destroying him. Everyone needs to be careful about denigrating fathers as a whole. It is one of the primary frivers of false accusations of domestic violence, and the growth of the industries that directly benefit from destroying fathers. The Lawyers (Judges are all Lawyers), the Social Workers (70-80% female), Psychologists, and Guardian Ad Litems (70-80% female) are all provided virtual immunity from prosecution. Mother’s are as well. It is common practice for all of these so-called professionals to create their own truth, Lie under oath, and destroy the father because it benefits their business to do so. Men and Fathers have been abused, raped, and falsely accused, demeaned, disparaged, and falsely implicated by simple little white lies…….”I am afraid of him” is all it takes to win custody in most counties, and the dysfunctional, angry, abusive mothers have dominated in family courts for 30 years because they play the game of the “femme Fatale” and the courts enable and support it, because in most cases, it is a financial win for all involved, except the dad who gets incarcerated for the duration of his children’s childhood, into a role of indentured servitude, without any significant role in their lives. There are millions of fathers whose lives have been destroyed. IT is so sad, and it will be interesting to watch as more mothers are preyed upon by sociopathic fathers, or just plain passive aggressive, dysfunctional, disordered fathers who will take advantage of this opportunity, as women continue to be more significant wage earners. The courts enable and support the most proficient liars who are able to put on a calm public face. The disordered men are catching on to the “loophole” and perhaps once enough of them begin to win in court, we will actually see some pushback from the extreme feminists who have helped to create the destruction of fathers. Mark my words, this is starting to happen now. What we are failing to do is demand truth, actual evidence, and reality to prevail in family court. The failure is driven by the greed of the Attorneys (Judges). There are SIMPLE fixes, but the Trial Lawyers fight all efforts at reform. One simple mandate in any custody battle would solve most of the problems. A second effort by truly objective, well meaning advocates, who claim to protect abused women from abusive men would ferret out most of the pretenders, and bring true justice into the family courts.
FIRST: Every interaction between children and ANY court appointed/designated/employee MUST be RECORDED! Simple, low cost, verifiable evidence that will reduce the destructive force of these people who are responsible for more child and father abuse, by a long shot, than any other demographic. Holding them accountable will change the court dramatically and reduce the corruption and abuse by the hundreds of thousands every year in this country. Remember when the police had no camera’s in their cars? Or interrogations were never recorded? How many victims claimed police brutality? It is simple, and it would save more lives every year, from the destructive agenda of the courts than all the casualties we have had in every single war this country has fought in the last 50 years!
SECOND: The Domestic abuse shelters and advocates should, as the first method of support, if a so-called abused women claims physical abuse, but there is no visible, or verifiable evidence, and they are wanting to make their case (and they do not feel their life is in danger), be provided with a simple hidden camera or two. If you truly have an abusive spouse, it would be easy to show it on film, and have hard evidence to implicate the abuser. Currently, the constitutional rights, and the legal rights of falsely accused fathers are ignored. Orders for protection are issued and they require no evidence, the father has no right of appeal, and the Judges love to sign them because it starts the money making machine for their peers. The lawyers are getting rich off the pain and misery of fathers (now sometimes mothers), by the lies and dysfunctional personalities that are the greatest endangerment to our children, and our society, and the “family”. IT is absurd that we have not done what needs to be done to properly stop the madness. It is simple, inexpensive and it should be mandated across the country. GALs, Lawyers, Judges, and Social Workers are the biggest abusers of children and fathers, and they are getting away with by the hundreds of thousands every year. It is the “Silent” Plague that history will prove, never should have been allowed to happen, and it isthe single most destructive “fraud” this country has ever allowed to prevail, since slavery, and the racism and homophobia of the more recent past. IT is time to stop implying that fathers are lesser human beings than mothers. The prejudice and bias in this will go down in history as one the worst abuses of modern civilization. There are MILLIONS of children who have been scarred and damaged for life by abusive mothers, and the loss of a fabulous father who was FRAMED by the mother and the court. This must stop. NOW. and I don’t mean the National Organization for Women. They are responsible for driving this bias and abuse, and the Lawyers love it because it is making them rich! Wake up. For all the healthy mothers out there who fully support, encourage, and truly believe that Dad is equal in importance to mom in the lives of the children, THANK You! To those who continue to falsely believe they are better and more important than Dad, you are an abuser. Equal rights goes both ways. IT is time Dads actually were provided with what the law states, EQUAL RIGHTS! The Judges IGNORE the Law. They are some of the worst abusers and enablers of abusive mothers. Judicial reform needs to happen as well. Judges are people, not Gods. We need to hold them responsible and accountable and liable for abuse. Lawyers need to be regulated independently and judges ALL need to be elected. They must also be prosecuted for breaking the law. Those who lie in court under oath must be prosecuted for Perjury, and those who make false accusations must be prosecuted as well. As long as we allow the current corrupt system to avoid the truth, child and father abuse will remain the most destructive element in our society. WAKE UP AMERICA! Those of us who are healthy, and good parents need to stand up. The courts have been able to keep the abused fathers quiet for so long because we are financially raped, emotionally abused, and psychologically labeled as angry. OF course we are angry. That shows we are healthy. Call it what it is properly, “Righteous Indignation”. When the “Liar’s Court” is given the power to take our children away from us based on stories told by a selfish, controlling, abusive spouse or partner, we should be angry. But then they rape us financially, tear our souls from our chest, and figuratively beat us till we have no strength or energy left, and we are left with an empty heart, wondering what we ever did to now have children who are strangers to us now. IT is insane, and there is plenty of blame to go around. The primary drivers of this are the Lawyers (Judges) who are getting rich off the destruction of fathers and childrens. Shame on us all for allowing this to continue in epidemic numbers. Where is the Media coverage and efforts to expose it? The Judges and Lawyers and all the supporting pawns have twisted their integrity and sold the public on keeping the custody battles quiet and secret, “to protect the children”. There is no bigger lie in this country, no greater cause of more ruined, damaged, and scarred lives and relationships, than the FAMILY COURT SYSTEM, and all its affiliated industries. Many people involved in the supporting roles are criminals, and we are letting them get away with murder every day. IT is disgusting.


We are the society of second, third, and many chances, and it hurts our children. My ex psycho currently has supervised visitation with my son. He is in the process of divorcing his 4th wife, who went from foe to friend after he showed her just how “wonderful” he is.

She has shared with me that though she told the counselors, court appointed guardian ad litem and mediators about her concerns for her own young son given psycho’s track record with mine, she was all but ignored. In fact, one individual said “wow, that’s sad that he has supervised visitation with his other child.” (Sounds strikingly similar to Not-to-Late’s experience.) I see nothing sad about it. What would be truly sad is if he were allowed to destroy my son had the court not stepped in to protect him. She is now living in hell. And though she did everything in her power to destroy me in concert with the psycho while they were dating (and he was married to me), my heart still goes out to her, and mostly for her innocent child.

I think parental rights need to take a backseat to children’s rights, and until we become a society who places the needs and protection of children above all else, our children will pay the price and all in the name of having two parents in their lives.

Ox Drover

Dear perniciousfamilycdourts,

BloggerT, one of the guy bloggers here has a site about female sexual predators (there is a link on the LF blog rolls) and you are right, there are just as many sexual female predators out there as male ones, so NO this site is not just anti-male, it is just that we (most of the bloggers here) are speaking from our own perspectives and most of us are women. That is why I encourage you to blog here because we DO like to have a diverse population on this blog and Donna encourages that as well.

I also agree that the lawyers/judges/family courts are anything except fair to children. I’m very against “parental rights” and FOR children’s rights, but unfortunately too many times the rights of the children to have a healthy parent are thwarted by the “system.”


I agree with the general perspective you posted about. When someone goes to court, justice should be served, not bias. From what I read here, the socipath tends to win most of the time, regardless of whether they are male or female. The problem is that your average person doesn’t know anything about sociopaths. They assume that both sides are trying to be reasonable. The sociopaths are sooooo unreasonable that no one would ever imagine their motive: Malice.

Perhaps there are equal number of sociopaths of both sexes. You can take any person’s personality and measure three parts: Empathy, Intelligence and Aggression. More people with an XY chromosome are going to have more aggression due to natural testosterone.. If you are a spath with low empathy, and you have more aggression you are more likely to show it. If you add low intelligence, you end up behind bars.
XX chromosomes have less aggression, so even if they have low intelligence, they are better trained at being manipulitive since being aggressive is not going to work. They are going to be dangerous in a covert way.
I know you already know this, but you do have to keep it in mind when you are discussing WHY there is a bias in the courts. It’s because with the exception of the low intelligence, sociopath males, the sociopath will always win.

And don’t forget to add the fact that most people in positions of authority are sociopaths. They love to see drama and to control others, that’s why they took that position in the first place.

My point is that the odds are stacked against us and toward the spaths, whether we are male or female and the reason is because not enough NORMAL people know how to recognize a sociopath. THAT NEEDS TO BE OUR GOAL.

Anger toward one another here on LF, is counterproductive toward that goal and EXACTLY what the spaths are counting on. They have seeded all the racism and misogyny with this intent. So on that note, I agree with you that too often we women here on LF spout off on men in general. I try to be cognizant and not do that, I hope that I haven’t.

Spaths understand that divide and conquer strategy. Let’s not make it easy on them.

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