Boundaries? I Don’t Know What Those Are
It’s amazing how even after years and months go by of you making it perfectly clear what kind of contact you want with the sociopath, they don’t reciprocate your boundaries. I think it’s just mind boggling over and over again in my mind that this concept of boundaries is so foreign to them, and they have no means, let alone intentions, of adhering to them.
I mean normal people who find out other people don’t want them to contact them anymore, just…stop. But the sociopath does the exact opposite. They continue to push buttons, push boundaries, push limits. There is a constant alertness on the part of the person that set up the boundaries against the sociopath to continue to re-evaluate the boundaries the sociopath has crossed. In addition, they have to set up the right proximity in the first place to derail the sociopath’s ability to get around the boundaries on the onset.
Like they say, “if at first you don’t succeed, try again.” I find that I am at my best when the sociopath doesn’t exist by maintaining no contact, or minimal contact when a child is involved. This week there were trigger points going off like the Fourth of July.
Going to Court…Again
This week I had a trial hearing that the sociopath perpetuated by not taking a plea because he violated my order of protection. So down to the courthouse I go to face him yet again. I had support with me, and I tried my best to prepare myself, but I found as I was walking into the court room, that I lost it.
I just said with tears coming down my face, taking a couple steps back away from the door, “I don’t want to do this.” After a couple minutes, I was able to regain my composure and walk through those doors.
Court was all it was expected to be. A defense attorney in my face while I’m on the witness stand, badgering me for something I already went through once. Now I had to re-live it again in front of a judge and of course the sociopath.
I could feel his eyes on me even although I chose not to look at him at all. The damn thing was so convoluted. The defense attorney would ask me questions and I would smirk a bit and respond, “Well that’s a complicated question.”
There aren’t really yes’ and no’s with sociopaths. They make everything so chaotic, its hard to unravel what happened first because so many things happened that were INSANE. Unfortunately the judge dismissed the case against the sociopath, as I’m not surprised, for lack of the burden of proof on the State’s Attorney side. But he didn’t do it without calling my ex an asshole in open court.
Maybe he did that for one, because he is an asshole, and maybe also because he saw how he had manipulated the system. It’s amazing how those memories that you tried so hard to put away come back to the forefront of your mind to haunt you.
Sneaking Around the Boundaries
Days after being in court, I was still physically depleted and sick. I felt depressed and lethargic. I reminded myself how important it was for my well-being to maintain no contact with the sociopath. Coincidentally NOT, I received an email from one of my ex’s “new employees” of the business that used to be mine that he took from me…and all it’s assets.
Employee’s Email to Me
“Hello (My Name),
I am Name, I work for your ex.
I attached my daughter’s birthday invitation, she is turning 5 on Saturday. I was hoping your ex could bring your daughter, Vel would love to meet her.”
How About No
This was my limit. Now the sociopath was giving my personal email address to his new employees of which he shouldn’t have, because he should be doing the damn work himself to save money on overhead so he can pay off the debt he owes to me! Instead a new woman, of that I’m not surprised, is now project managing his jobs, and he is paying her what he should be paying towards the hundred thousand dollar debt.
I decided that I had to take my boundaries to a new limit. I said NOPE! This isn’t going to happen. So I decided to change my email AGAIN and give him a new, separate email apart from my personal email where he can inquire and coordinate his supervised visitation.
I am going to decide when I am good and ready to answer and even open that email. Right now I am deciding to go on a week hiatus from hearing from him so I can feel at peace for a second. Then I took the liberty to respond to the employee.
My Response
“Your boss needs to read the divorce decree again. He has supervised visitation, and I don’t find it appropriate for him to attempt to thwart the courts’ ruling on the supervised visitation by using you as a pawn to go around what has already been set in place.
Good luck to you, you Ex sound just like mine and our experiences far too similar! Continue to take care of yourself and will be up acing you on my progress. Btw, this is my first blog ever! Could it not have been about sharing cup cake decor tips 🙈ðŸ˜
I love your screen name, I laugh because it’s so true for us. I try to find some humor in this because it’s all you can do!
Don’t go back to that car wash again ! because that attendant knows you are going through divorce, broke, and that you got the kids to support, and that you are vulnerable! We gotta stop giving out our info to strangers!
Years ago when I was going through my divorce. I quit smoking and started taking long walks everyday to ease the urge of the withdrawal of smoking. I was walking past a car wash everyday. Well, one of the workers from car wash was standing out on public sidewalk everytime I walked past. He would always say hi. I said hi. I thought nothing of it. It was kinda odd, but seemed harmless.
Then one night the guy was waiting for me outside the middle school (which is 2 blocks away from home) and it was a good mile away from car wash. Meaning the guy had followed me, on a previous day. (I gotta point out that it was nighttime, when he waited for me, and the middle school was open for teachers conference) Meaning the guy must have scoped out that too, so he wouldn’t have his car parked in an empty parking lot, it was full of cars of parents attending school function.
As I was approaching the middle school, the guy was standing by his car and he yelled out at me saying he needs to use a phone. I yelled back that there are phones in the middle school. He yelled out, that he is from the car wash. I yelled back saying there are phones in the middle school. The guy yelled back that he really needs to use a phone. I started running, and I got out of there. I never walked past that car wash again.
We gotta learn NEVER tell our business to strangers. If we think we will receive an listening ear, no we will end up with another stalker to deal with !!
TRU DAT
Then I moved out to country in 2004. I was frequenting the lumber yard. I would buy their materials in exchange for them telling me how to do the job. Like wiring phone jacks, hanging shelving etc. So the guys at the lumberyard got my whole story. That I was alone in the country with my little boy.
What I didn’t know is my soon-to-be-boyfriend-sociopath was at times in the store listening to my every word. Once that guy heard my story, he was on a manhunt to catch me.
That guy tracked me down to meet me. And it was 5-years of hell. And, even after I broke up with him 4 1/2 years later, he sent me a 5-page letter at Christmas, and then called me a few days later. I told him NOT INTERESTED, but it remains that the guy will keep trying from time to time.
And, it all started with me telling my story in public. My story fell on the wrong ears. And, I got a lifelong stalker
ewe
and the thing is. the guy is so sneaky. that I am the only one who knows. He never shows his cards to anyone else. So no one believes me, no one protects me. My sisters know I would never make this up. But, people out here are looking at him saying nothing, and me telling big on him. They believe him.
A typical sociopath’s trait!
No Contact is vital and it is a lifeline. The first breather I had in 3 months with the sociopath was when I went camping by myself for 4 days. It was the first time I started to see things clearly. I still didn’t know what a sociopath was yet, but my gut instincts kicked in and told me something was not right, that there was some sort of game going on and that it was not normal.
With a sociopath, your feelings are going wonkers and you are missing them like crazy. But you know deep down something is wrong. When you take space, you give yourself the time to let that deep down feeling show you the truth. You can finally be strong enough to walk away even in the face of your addiction.
I experience the same thing, however since she was given my son to raise, I have to maintain some contact to be involved with my son. She allows contact as long as things go her way. So, it’s convenient for her if I take my son to Hockey and pay for things related to hockey.
Then when I call her to plan something with my son, she says, “don’t talk to me about it, talk to him”. I then make plans with him and she calls me back yelling at me, stating I didn’t discuss it with her!
Then she calls me for help dealing with my son on some trivial matter. Just recently, she called and said he wouldn’t get up for school. Her voice panicked and stressed, then as I call him on his cell phone, I hear him in the background on the call with this mother. I realize they are in the garage and he’s just coming in and I hear him say he was getting his backpack. So, she calls me to create a false perception of what’s going on. I hang up, she calls me two minutes later saying my son threatened to jump out of the car if she didn’t stop and let him out and that he is now riding his bike to school… and that she doesn’t believe he’s going to school. Well, now I have to talk to him and figure out what is going on. I get in my car and follow him to school. During this time she’s calling him, he stops his bike multiple times, checks his phone and then rides again. At the same time, seemingly in between, she’s calling me! I finally answer, an he stops check his phone, so now I know it’s her calling him.
I stop my son a block from the school and ask him what’s going on. He tells me she woke him at 4am yelling and screaming at him about something and that he was just tired. He even said that he thinks she turned off his alarm. This coincides with another event, where he could not find his phone in the morning, his mother said he lost it and then he said he vaguely remembered his mother coming in the room in the middle of the night and taking the phone. She then claims she didn’t do it. This is the same behavior that I spent twelve years trying to sort out. She would do something purposeful to the kids, or create an incident with the kids, claim the kids to be doing something malicious, then ask me to yell at them and when I started by talking to them, she’d start screaming at me. At four years old, my son was calling her a liar to her face!
I actually tried to bring this up to the marriage counselors, custody evaluators, lawyers during divorce, but as usuall, women are saints and men are the problem. They view the frustration and anger in men as the problem. No help at all. Despite coming across many acedemic articles on NPD and BPD, I find that they actually understand little about the insanity that the rational parent has to deal with on a daily basis. The convoluted, manipulated, malicious lying that occurs is overwhelming. To this day there are significant events, two of which involve my children that are completely unresolved because nobody takes men seriously and questions these women.
The divorce industry could not care less and simply and quite thoroughly STEALS from hard working men that receive absolutely NO help from the system.
I recently divorced my 2nd Borderline PD. The first confused me very much, but thought I had it figured out on the second time around. Not so much (as you will be saying to yourself, I am sure) What baffles me is how the men always are set up as the problem. Men are far more traumatized over divorce than women (statistics say this) My first marriage it became obvious through blatant overt Gaslighting, The second was covert (with “another husband” in her home country).
Men are not the problem, women are not the problem, lack of awareness of “Red Flags” is the problem. Donna’s site (this one) was the first site I encountered that motivated me to dig deeper into what happened to me.
How the public is made aware of this increase in BPD individuals is beyond me. I do know that this last one “taught me the BIG lesson”.
The “I” (iPhone etc), “ME”, “NOW” culture that is sweeping North America is a key motivator, or teacher of the coming generations and the 30 something generations.
A phone number “used” to be a house, now it is an “I” or a “Me” identity, this allows for obvious privacy (and use of said device for covert, deceitful activity). An email address used to be shared amongst a family or husband and wife, no more.
The more we say we are connected the less we truly are. Only by facing each other, verifying the truth can we escape this mesmerizing illusion of connectedness with plain old “Person to Person, in Person” communications.
How sad is a society where the only way to ensure you are “on a date” with who the other person says they are is by asking to see picture ID?
I sincerely apologize to all who read this that I do not have answers. I am a “Preacher”, I still seek answers. What I do have is an awareness that the “problem” of BPD is far more pervasive than anyone can imagine. As I alluded to, I believe it is a combination of the “I” “Me” “Now” which makes everyone far more selfish, those who have “normal empathy” will temper their “needs”. Those with Sociopathic/Psychopathic/narcissistic (dormant or active) personalities will embrace this change and seek out vulnerable targets to take advantage of. More so now than ever (in the history humankind) before as society demands we drive the “imported car”, live in “the estates” area of town and as a result become an even more narcissistic society.
If I offend, I apologize, If I have educated anyone, I am pleased.
In any case, DO follow Donna, she is THE Pre emanate expert, she has been to hell and back. Not only from a realistic, earthly perspective but also on a spiritual level.
Donna “Gets it”; LISTEN to her and learn.
All the best, be careful as, “they walk among us”.
Agree 100%, sad to say. We are slowly bringing down our species!
Sorry to go off a bit, but how about trying to maintain no contact with a socio son?? What does that look like? Is it even possible??
Can’t seem to do it because between he and my husband, they keep him in the mix, if you know what I mean. Always making plans for the next dysfunctional visit. (We live about 3 hours away, thank goodness). I see how damaging it is for the three of us to keep getting together (especially my husband and my relationship), but my husband is ALL about family…no matter what. On one hand I love him for being so accepting…on the other hand I think ‘what an idiot’ that he can’t or won’t see…
I’m getting old dealing with all of this!
A Sociopathic son? Who in the dysfunctional group truly embraces this reality? Is it diagnosed, has there been a brain scan or other diagnostic measures to accurately make this conclusion?
So many questions, because I cannot imagine such a situation, I read about it in the book “Snakes in Suits”. This is a situation (in my opinion) that calls for objective analysis. Sociopaths are “broken” people (along with all BPDs). There are treatments that have had somewhat measurable positive results (High doses of Omega 3 I understand).
To deal with this effectively there must be a “buy in” from those who are “responsible” (depending on his age) for the son. My son (of 31 years) is more of an empath than I. I am constantly proud of him for doing the “right, ethical and moral” thing in any given situation.
Understand that your son is this way because of a (perceived or real) defect in his brain function. He has no guilt, no moral compass, no empathy for what others feel. It may be possible to put a bandaid on it with experimental/holistic approaches but there is no guarantee. Where it came from no one can answer (and do NOT accept personal responsibility for his condition). Nothing you could have done would have changed this, he was born with this from a genetic mutation or some other abstract explanation.
Live YOUR life, do not (easier said than done) become stressed. Come from a place of true love, because retaliation or other actions will not change this. Stay calm in the face of this, if what you say is not accepted, so be it. You cannot change it.
I truly hope this dissertation (LOL) helps.
Be well,
William
Thank you William…that does help. Just being able to talk about it helps, believe me.
Our son is 34 now. It’s been quite a ride, let me tell you all. He was diagnosed at age 6 after a few ‘incidents’ we’ll just say. I completely blocked that out, probably also not believing it or even knowing what sociopath/psychopath even meant (there was no internet back in the 80s to research and I was in my early 20s). I was only reminded by my husband this past year about all of that. We chose, I suppose, to not talk about such a silly thing that we did not really believe or conceive of. Then, I forgot all about that. It was a very trying and painful time. My husband obviously did not forget as he brought it up this past year after I commented on what a troubled life our son lives. Back to the story… At 8 years of age, due to the weird dysfunctional life we were all living, we surrendered him to a wonderful foster family who he stayed with until adulthood. He was not sad or bothered by this at all. Apparently, never even skipped a beat…on to the next family sort of thing. Did not talk about us with that family…like we never even existed! We maintained contact with that family over the years and reestablished a relationship with our son at 16. We only saw he sporadically until he met a girl and wanted to marry her. We saw him (them) a little more often, but never for very long or never anything really meaningful, if that makes sense. He sort of always kept us at arm’s length, only it seems, wanting us to know what he wanted us to know?
Now, after 5 years and having two children of his own, they are going through a nasty split and his socio personality is shining brightly. Anger and contempt from him…no real sadness…his wife is such a nice girl and it is all so sad. The children are like status symbols for him. Look how ‘normal’ I am! I am a father…I have two kids…he seems to actually be ‘happy’ or maybe relieved, that he is living back on his own, in a seedy little cabin in the woods.
Anyway, my husband is all about family. I actually love him for that. I have been with him for 40 years and I love who he is. I do not want to change him…he is who he is. I am not all about family. Only to a point. I am the ‘tough love’ one. Every time we deal with our son, we clash like crazy. We are trying to accept each others’ ideals but it is difficult for both of us. The sad thing is, our son knows all if this and instigates (just like he did for the first 8 years of his life) and I fear it is breaking us down. I am not going to let that happen. I will be as accepting as I can be. Unfortunately, it hurts me inside. I cannot be a hypocrite without being emotionally affected. I am hiding it well, I think.
Sorry to ramble, but thank you for reaching out. I wish that things were different. I just wanted a quote normal family and that does not always happen.
Dearest Bev, Thank you for reaching out to our compassionate, enlightened group; no one who hasn’t been through being touched by a sociopath, can possibly understand us; it goes too deep and will probably always a part of our psyche.
I was married for 23 years to a man I now know was a psychotic. I worked at 2 minimum wage jobs while raising my 5 beautiful children. I was so proud to release them into the world but gradually the emotional estrangement became too great and I have had to go NC with all of them. Worse yet is the fact that at 78 years old and disabled due to 2 spine surgeries, I now find myself completely abandoned by everyone and everything I once held dear. They have taken all my money and all my friends in this area to which I moved some 11 years ago to be closer to them in my old age. So here I now sit in my little home a la Howard Hughes and have nothing more to live for. Even my grandchildren have been told to stay away!
So you see?…it could be worse. Hang onto your hubby as your one sweet haven. We never forget but, having a companion to share things with makes a huge difference. I don’t even have a cousin nor any relatives so I am very lonely. My friends are all far flung and aging as well. I don’t even have a Power of Attorney! Just why I go on living is a big mystery to me! My loving parents would probably roll over in their graves if only they knew what became of their once happy, talented girl!
Stay safe and hug your hubby extra hard tonight, dear Bev.
What a beautiful person you are Flicka! I cannot believe that you have nobody at all, for you have us and this site. You also obviously love yourself, which is why you go on living in answer to your question. You know the goodness of who is inside you, even if others do not or choose not to.
I will hold onto my husband…thank goodness I am not married to a socio/psycho…I don’t know if I would have survived that. At least we do have each other to bounce things off of, and we do. Even if we do not agree 100% with each other all of the time.
YOU are a lovely spirit! Stay with us and help us and guide us. We need you so very much…
I can certainly appreciate all the feedback and comments here. This is a wonderful forum for caring people to interact on! Talking about how Sociopaths and other BPD personalities have affected our lives is a great outlet. As someone said, unless you have experienced it, you don’t “get it”.
I have learned a big huge fat lesson through all of my interactions (also almost lost my house to a psychopathic mortgage fraudster)with these types. My next steps are learning how and who to trust. My trust in people has been completely destroyed. I watch for red flags constantly. This is not my nature but I don’t know how else to protect myself.
Some have said sell your house, rent and go “off the grid”. That doesn’t feel like an appropriate response. I would prefer to be able to regain my normal life again, although it is taking a lot time as the energy drain has been dramatic. What “normal” is for me I don’t really remember. Almost as if I have to re-create myself.
I wish everyone in this forum love and caring relationships ahead ,as I hope for myself as well.
Be educated, learn about the disordered personality type, I made it my mission to completely understand them. I can never emulate a person with no compassion, no moral compass, no caring, but I can intellectualize understanding the condition and being ever vigilant as I know I am, and always will be a target.
I wish the same for all people. Love and caring. It is so difficult to understand that any person cannot feel those things innately.
Lovely post William.
WillGove
I too went through the phase of not trusting anyone. After all, I trusted my instincts to protect me and I failed myself. Therein is the key.
It’s not about rebuilding ability to trust others, it’s about learning to trust ourselves and to know that there is only a certain level of trust we can experience. We learn to weigh the risks, and to know when to exit with dignity and self respect. For business, I always check the cancellation policy. I never work without a safety net. I don’t allow contractors who work with lawbreakers, no ex felons moving my furniture, I mow my own lawn, etc. I meet socially at neutral places, a coffee shop, out for dinner, to movies, etc. I now have a small group of women that I invite to my house because I have been to theirs many times.
But what I have learned is to be open to the possibility that others aren’t what they say they are, and what I can do about it. That’s how I rebuilt trust in ME.
I would like to know if parents of a narcisist are like the monsters they raise? My ex has the sweetest parents in the world. When I was diagnosrd with Multiple Scelerosis my ex’s health care provider sent me a stupid letter telling me the only way they would pay for my medicine is if they recieved letters stating that Multiple Sclerosis is a life long disease and that I would bebon some form of the available medications needed to treat the disease. WELL DUHHH! I belive people who run healthcare coverage are people who paid to work there because the don’t have anything better to do with their time except to watch sick people squirm.
I ask this because how could such an evil, souless, black hole of a person come from such sweet, loving people?
The sweetest two people you could ever meet on this planet don’t deserve to have to put up with such a disrespectful son. They are who he runs to when all other avenues if finance get out of his reach. He asks for money and they send it to him indtantly and it really hurts my heart that he does that to them. He either also manipulates them to no end or they just look at the situation as not turning away from their son or child.
I tried explaing to them that he has a mental illness that should be treated but will find it extremely hard to do because people like him are manipulating charmers and some of the doctors who treat them are just as bad. A good psyciatrist might see whats,wrong in td first visit and will confront him on things he tells him, a bad one won’t. They don’t really care and just want to make sure they’re going to get paid in turn manipulating him like he does with everyone else. However, this will never happen. So I move on with my son because I can’t stand the thought of my son turning in to his father.
Sophia – unfortunately, there is a large genetic component to sociopathy. Genetics is a crap shoot, so even though his parents are nice people, there may have been an disordered person somewhere back on the family tree. Even though the parents did their best, they may not have been able to overcome the genetic predisposition.
You may want to get the book, “Just Like His Father?” It offers great advice for parenting a child who may be genetically at risk for sociopathy.
http://www.lovefraud.com/shop/just-like-his-father/
Hi Sophie,
We are the parents of a SP. We are normal people.
It is hell having a SP son, especially when one of us (me) wants to and knows that it is vital to maintain no contact, and one (my husband) can’t do that. It is his ‘SON’, after all. Who else has he got?? Just us, my husband says.
We have all kinds of strife over this. It is the hardest thing that has ever happened in our lives. Our son is 33 and contacts us when he NEEDS money or NEEDS validation when all of his other relationships are falling apart around him. There is no love…only want and / or need. When we say no, he badgers and uses guilt to get what he wants. ‘I AM YOUR SON’!! He is disrespectful, selfish, and a liar.
What a life…your letter said everything that we go through…not turning away from their son…been there…am there!
Peace As you say, a normal person who hears someone wants no contact would stop. The spath does the opposite- tries for contact. The spath I went no contact with in August has forced contact twice. I will continue to be vigilant for no contact with the nutcase.