By | April 9, 2006 38 Comments

How sociopaths are diagnosed

Sociopaths are difficult to identify—in part because they all behave differently, and some are worse than others.

There are sociopaths who hold a job, get married, attend church—yet emotionally abuse their families, cheat on their spouses, manipulate their coworkers, steal from their employers, and never get caught. There are sociopaths who never work, torture animals, con their relatives and commit cold-blooded murder—and end up in jail. And there are plenty of sociopaths in between.

The point is that sociopaths exhibit a wide range of behaviors. So it is not just the behavior that defines the sociopath—it is the personality traits as well.

Dr. Robert Hare has identified the key symptoms of sociopathy (he prefers the term “psychopathy”). They are:

Interpersonal traits:

  • Glib and superficial
  • Egocentric and grandiose
  • Lack of remorse or guilt
  • Lack of empathy
  • Deceitful and manipulative
  • Shallow emotions

Antisocial lifestyle

  • Impulsive
  • Poor behavior controls
  • Need for excitement
  • Lack of responsibility
  • Early behavior problems
  • Adult antisocial behavior

For more detail, see the key symptoms page on

Sociopathy is a “syndrome.” That means for someone to be a sociopath, he or she must have almost all of these traits, not just a few. However, sociopaths can exhibit the traits to different degrees.

In order to diagnose a sociopath, Dr. Hare developed the Hare Psychopathy Check List—Revised (PCL-R). This is not a multiple-choice test that the subject completes himself. It is an evaluation completed by a trained professional, such as a psychologist.

The psychologist interviews the subject and reviews his or her past behavior. The psychologist gives the subject a score on each of 20 characteristics—basically the traits listed above. The scores for each characteristic are then added together for a total.

Scores on the PCL-R range from zero to 40, with 40 being the worst. The general population usually scores about five or six. People who score above 30 are considered to be sociopaths.

This leaves a lot of room for variations in behavior. Not all sociopaths are violent. Not all sociopaths take money from their wives and girlfriends. Not all sociopaths abuse drugs or alcohol. But many do.

The core of this disorder is that sociopaths have no conscience, no emotional connection to other people and no remorse. If you see those traits, start looking for the others as well.

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Every man and woman in America should read Dr. Hare’s book…it is an eye-opener. When I was desperately trying to decide if I was crazy for not wanting to marry a handsome, charming, outrageous man just because he was a liar and things didn’t seem just right, I went to the web to try and seek out a certain type of psychologist or to put my finger on the problem in our relationship, translated “find out what was wrong with me.” I Googled the words “seemingly no conscience” and Dr. Hare’s book, Without Conscience… came up. I immediately purchased it. That was a month and a half ago. I’ve read it cover to cover a few times over. I keep it with me. I was blown away to find out not only that it wasn’t me at all; but mostly by the fact that what my man had (Sociopathy or psychopathy) was something shared by so many and indeed it is at an epidemic level…I keep the book with me for reference, reassurance, and comfort, because, even knowing that HE (the ex) is the evil one, I am still in moments of weakness drawn to him and I must remind myself that they need us to fuel their fires…without us as the victims they will die out so we have to be strong and then even stronger, because once they have us and have manipulated us to just where they want us and spent all of their valuable time doing so, why would THEY let us go…we are such a prize to them and such a ready source of continual instant (if not totally sick) gratification. I used to sort of half jokingly call him and his son the “IG kids” or the devil incarnate…IG is instant gratification and I really meant he is the opposite of good…when all I was trying to understand and figure out was how did I get trapped or trap myself into a relationship with such a man…the hollow man (NO INSIDES/NO FEELINGS/NO REMORSE/NO SHAME/NO LOVE) I was mesmerized by him and fascinated that I a person of strength, character and good looks would get taken by a Trickster like that…I do have myself to blame but who would have known. I honestly never saw it coming in the beginning and when there were “signs” I was already so bogged down in the quagmire, it was/is a miracle I unmeshed myself from him (physically only…still not mentally or emotionally). Wish I’d have known about Dr. Hare’s work before I wasted almost two precious years of my life. Unfortunately, the only people reading his book will be individuals studying psychology or those who already are victims. When we, the victims, try to warn other people about the actual perpetrator or just types like him,( the psychopaths among us), our family, friends and co-workers just scoff and treat us like we have gone nuts to start talking about people like that…as if we are paranoid or don’t know what we are talking about. Can you blame them? That’s what I would have felt like prior to being involved with a real, live, in my face psychopath. Thank you to Dr. Hare and for and the brave men and women who are fellow victims for helping us cope with these live-force grabbing creeps. Sue

will be okay

sosueme… SO TRUE!! People look at me like I’m crazy too, when I talk about my ex. Everyone thinks he’s such a nice guy, only a small few see the truth now. I took Dr. Hare’s test for my ex, he scored 35, just from what I know about him. Yet like I said.. So many still think he’s such a nice guy, so ofcourse that makes me the crazy one to many.


True insomuch that I see all the traits but some to a lesser degree then others. Also the testing must be done by and “completed by a trained professional, such as a psychologist.” We as laymen’s are not trained to evaluate them. But of course we can look and evaluate how we are effected by their choices and lifestyle.


It is also very difficult to locate a professional actually trained in the PCL-R. And when you do, since you are likely NOT going to have the P in front of the person, you are just going to get a professional opinion, not a formal diagnosis. And even at that, the professional is going to want EXTENSIVE info about the potential P dating all the way back to his childhood, and info about all areas of his life, not just his behavior specific to say your marriage or in one area. Which really makes sense since so many other disorders can result in a person exhibiting some of the traits on the PCL-R, even though they are not a sociopath or psychopath. And the evaluator is trained to determine whether the personality trait or behavior seems to really indicate the level required. Just to use alcohol as an example–because it is easy and I haven’t had my morning coffee yet. 🙂 One person may think her husband has a “drinking problem” because he drinks 3 or 4 beers every Saturday when he cuts the grass, although he rarely drinks at any other time, while another person may hear that and think, jeesh, practically every guy I know drinks 3 or 4 beers every Sat. when he cuts the grass, and would think, “You’re kidding, right?” when you say your hubby has a drinking problem. But I figure if your situation is bad enough that you’ve landed on Lovefraud and you look at the checklist and the person you are involved with seems to have most of the traits and is causing you harm, you know at a minimum you have a problem person on your hands and need to run like hell whether they are a sociopath or psychopath or not. Which, of course, is easier said than done.


I am curious how a test can ferret out these people. Wouldn’t they just lie on the test? I’ve heard some sociopaths believe their own lies so much that they could pass a lie detector test.

My sociopath is not the violent type, from what I saw and what his army commander says. He also never tried to get money from me, not that I have any money he could take. He seems to have plenty of his own. He does, however, have all the other traits. But the eerie thing is that he managed to totally charm my friends, who are no fools. One of my friends that has hated all my bf’s over the last 15 years. He really liked the S and felt he was an honest, decent, stand-up guy. My other friends loved the way he treated me and felt he was the right person for me.


I have exactly the same question as Stargazer. How can anyone possibly evaluate the sociopath? It would be a miracle to get them in front of a psychologist in the first place. The sociopath I was with was firmly convinced that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him – it was everybody else! There’s no way he’d ever go to see a psychologist.

If you did manage to get them there, as Stargazer says, they’d just lie through their teeth. How could a psychologist see through that? I’m really interested to know the answer to this question.


It is my understanding that if a formal diagnostic process is being undertaken (like if it is court ordered) that the clinician conducts not only an interview with the possible s or p, but also interviews family etc. In addition, they also use corraborating evidence like court records, employment history records, medical records etc.


I was a therapist at one point (now a massage therapist) and nearly have a masters in Psychology. I have studied personality disorders over the years from many different perspectives. AND I STILL MISSED THIS ONE! I had no idea what he was until after the damage is done. As you can see, there are also several other therapists here, even a psychiatrist, who were all played by sociopaths. That’s how shifty they are. Until you have become close with one, you really cannot know what they are really like or how soul-less they are. That’s the sad thing, and that’s why it seems so useless to warn people.

Ox Drover

Dear Henry, Jen, and Stargazer,

It is true that most people in the real world “don’t get it”—even people who we thought “should” get it.

My sons and all my friends were THRILLED when I started dating the P-XBF, he made me smile etc. but then within months I was in tears all the time. “Losing it” and they just couldn’t get WHY–he was, after all, “such a nice guy” and I obviously was distraught for no reason, he didn’t hit me after all.

Henry, people “stereotype” others by their race, age, sexuality, part of the country, etc etc and that’s just the way it is—get over it! LOL (joke) That fact that you are an Oklahoma red-neck AND gay “means” that you are really twisted and don’t deserve consideration as a human being in the eyes of these people. You are some kind of pervert that attacks little kids in the middle of the night and burns incense to satan. The fact that you have no memory of doing these things just proves that you did them. Sort of LIKE THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS.

I got into a BIG fight with a homophobe in our living history group who was literally attacking people that he thought were male gays in a public park where we did our living history demonstrations. The park did have a “reputation” as a meeting place for men looking for anonomoys sex and this guy would go after any lone male walking in the park, even pointing guns at them “to protect the park.”

Personally I think ANYONE can walk in a public park without being stereotyped or molested by some homophobe out to drive them away. Even if the guy IS there “looking for sex” in the bushes, they weren’t doing it in full view of anyone.

When Imade the above comment to some of our homophobic members they said “Well, do you mean to CONDONE illegal behavior? I tried to get them to see that these men had never approached us, never approached any children we were demonstrating to, never attacked anyone so why should be PRESUME TO READ MINDS OF PEOPLE WALKING IN THE PARK. We were NOT THE THOUGHT POLICE and as long as these people didn’t “do it” in front of anyone else, what two consenting adults did in the bushes was NONE OF MY BUSINESS even if it was technically “Illegal”—boy, that went over like a lead ballon.

When our local homophobe pointed a gun at a park patron, albeit the patron did not see it, but 30 witnessses did, and then later pointed a gun at me—an unloaded (supposedly) muzzle loading blunderbus, I pressed assault charges against him and got his butt dragged into court. Believe it or not, though I proved beyond a doubt by 20 witnesses that he had doe this multiple times and to me, the judge did not find him “guilty” of assault, but did lecture him about pointing guns at people, loaded or not.

I told the guy that if he ever pointed a gun at me again, that the one I pointed BAC WOULD BE LOADED and he better believe it. I was totally shocked at the number of members who THOUGHT HE WAS OKAY TO DO THESE THINGS. Including the Narcisst who is our president. I was on the board of directors for two years of the group, and did get one thing passed, and that was a FIREARMS POLICY (because period fire arma are part of our presentations) This same idiot that pointed a gun at me got our Keel boat banned from the National Park at Ft. Smith because the ranger saw him SMOKING OVER A POWER BARREL on the river with a boat load of boy scouts.

BTW, the guy also has a past criminal record of CONVICTIONS for assasult AND drug possession.

Our group had a former state parks employee who went to prison for child porno, and got out and quietly resumed membership until I (who just happened to know about his “hushed up conviction”) brought this to light when I realized he was AGAIN WORKING WITH CHILDREN at a state park as an “independent consultant”—I got him “released” from his contract and kicked out of our group, but had to FIGHT for that too. If it h adn’t been for some of the women in the group who also raised a hue and cry with me, he would still be in our group.

It totally AMAZES me how accepting of this kind of PSYCHOPATHIC behavior MANY OF THE GENERAL POPULATION are! Our N group President said about the former state parks employee convicted of child porno “well, he paid his debt to society.” It was only by threatening his federal parole officer that if the man molested a child in our group that I would be on the capitol steps screaming the PAROLE OFFICER’S NAME that I got him to force the man to resign from our group. He now has a web site as a consultant and works with 4-H kids. Don’t these people do back ground checks on their employees and volunteers? NOPE!! And, true, he was never convicted of TOUCHING a kid but he was sentenced for buying videos of CHILD RAPE. Yet, he still works with kids….what is WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

Ok, I digress and got on my freaking SOAP BOX AGAIN, but “normal” people don’t get it. Personally, I think the freaking “Norm” is TWISTED.

Ox Drover

Yea, I did get on my soap box, but JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE WALKS IN THE PARK that does NOT mean they are 1) gay 2) gonna attack you. I don’t “condone” anyone having sex with strangers in a bed or in a park, but if they are NOT doing it in front of my eyes, I cannot READ THEIR MINDS and decide that is what they are thinking. Therefore, to PERSECUTE people because YOU THINK they might be having “illegal thoughts” is so ANTI-AMERICAN, so WRONG that to condone that kind of persecution of ANYONE is just WRONG!

The N-jerk who is doing that kind of thing, the same SOB who pointed the blunderbuss at me, is so homophobic and so narcissistic that he is the kind of guy who has “mob mentality” and would lynch you if he could—you and anyone else he “doesn’t approve of.” That is what HATE CRIMES are all about. BTW, he doesn’t like women either! So you can imagine just how much he LOVES THIS MOUTHY, UPPITY OLD WOMAN! LOL Even though he did’t get any jail time for pointing the gun at me, he did get to hire an attorney (cost him bucks) and he did get to take a severe tongue lashing from the judge in front of all his “supporters.” And, I did get a rigid fire arms policy passed and there were enough men in our group that it WILL BE ENFORCED.

So while I didn’t get everything I wanted (life without parole for him LOL) I did get his outward behavior modified and some safety items in place. He and his cronnies are also no longer openly persecuting “gay” people (actually people they think MIGHT BE GAY) in the parks.

It’s just that I don’t think all straight people are good and all gay folks bad, there are bad folks in both camps. So, to me persecuting someone because they are black or gay or green is just WRONG. Unfortunately there is no way to “legislate” acceptence. You can pass laws til you are blue in the face and people will still be prejudiced. It’s a shame.


I tend to have a soapbox about that, too. It disturbs me that people bash same sex marriages or same sex couples raising children, yet it’s more acceptable for straight people to beat their wives and abuse their kids. I just don’t get it. Okay, rant over.


I am in CO with a my good friend (K). She know’s very little about my experience with (M). She asked if I would open a bottle of wine. Now get this, the wine is called (EVIL) spelled backwards and upside down. Very good wine. I make a toast to all my lovefraud friend’s regardless of your opinion of me. Too all of us that have been turned upside down and backward’s by evil, here is too life!!!!

Ox Drover

Great wine Henry! At least the NAME IS GREAT!!! LOL

Yep, EVIL, backwards and upside down! But, at least my dear bro. you know you are well loved here! If I hadn’t called off our “engagement,” Kat would have pulled my hair out! LOL


OXY I remember when I proposed too you. I thought I was healed, I thought I had all this madness figured out and behind me. Wrong. I think that was when I finally figured out I was not crazy, I was not to blame. But the reality of what had happened set in. The enormity of the deceit, the realization of every thing I suspected, the fact that I ignored my intuition, I ignored red flag’s, I ignored me. And reading so many similar stories here on lovefraud. This was not just being rejected by a lover. This was not just a good relationship gone bad. The fact’s. The trait’s. The truth. It all hit me like a ton of bricks. I was victimized by someone who set out to do that from the first hello. It made me feel sick, it made me feel weak. I never in my life wanted to accept that someone could or would do that. But I was raised by a sociopath/narcissist, I was trained not to ask why. So begin’s the avoided truth’s – it’s time to deal with Henry. I guess I will never have all the answer’s. Too me there are no answer’s to EVIL – I just have to accept that evil is everywhere and stop avoiding it. I can’t avoid it. i have to face it, I have to get in evil’s face and tell it NO – your not going to victimize me – not ever again…


Yay for CO residents! I live in CO too.

Even though I am feeling much much better and detached from my P (it was only a 2-1/2 month relationship), I am really changed from it because I know now that there is evil in the world. I always thought that what people called “evil” was just fear. I believed in the good in everyone. I have done a 180 on that. I feel like I see things very differently now. Even movies about good vs evil have taken on a different meaning. It’s as though I’ve taken off my rose colored glasses for the first time. My life will never be the same because of it.

I was at the pool today and met one of my neighbors. Coincidentally, she began telling me the story of her abusive ex and how she’s trying to fight him for custody of the kids. I asked her if he is a sociopath, and she lit up from recognition. She said nobody believes her, not even her family. I told her about this site, and I hope she signs up.


I just flashed on the title of a movie that I never saw…”Sleeping with the Enemy”. That’s what I feel like happened to me.

I hope you are enjoying this beautiful weather here this weekend. What a great time to be in CO.

My ex, the P, told me when her first met me that he was planning to move to Oklahoma when he got his medical discharge from the army. I hope for the same of your fellow Oklahomans that that was one of his lies!


Oxy.. picking a fight with a psycho that points guns at people.. rofl!

LOL.. yes if Henry ever goes straight I’ll fight ya for him.. put up your dukes! 😉

You know peeps, the thing that really bothers me about this last guy that hurt me so much.. I used to be a lot like him.

Wow this is hard to write, but like some of you have said, this site is such a safe place.

I was brought up by an abusive mom and even more abusive step-father. My “job” in the family became sticking up for my little brothers and taking it on the chin “literally” to protect them. I also took a lot of the heat for my mom, because I was a very feisty little kid.

Later my mom remarried a very nice man, but I was pretty damaged by this time, and the experience left me lonely, needing validation, and nearly unable to say no to any adult.

At this time, my new dad’s best friend came into my life. He was the first real S in my life, and he filled my head with all kinds of strange notions, and molested me for years. I tolerated this because I craved attention and the love of a man.

By the time I grew up and married, I knew there was something wrong inside me. My marriage (to a classic S/P) was draining and left me cold and empty, and for some reason I don’t really understand, I turned to cheating and to picking up one man after another, “wooing” them, then dumping them, which is the very same behavior that my ex-bf does. I also lied to my husband a LOT, even though before that (and since) I have been a ruthlessly honest person.

Well I felt horrible about all this, and I dug until I discovered the causes, and rooted out the behavior. But it’s kind of hard for me to judge my ex-bf, since I once acted just like him. I was also a very giving and caring person, which he is as well, in every other way. I talk to him like a friend now, demanding truth, and giving it. Still feel kind of like it’s throwing silver down a well, and I’m sure I’ll give it up real soon, but like I said, it’s kind of hard for me to judge him too harshly.

Last year, as well as breaking my heart and lying to me, he lent me over 600 bucks and his van for months to help me get back and forth to school, he even rearranged his schedule sometimes to make sure I didn’t miss any classes. It’s hard for me to think he doesn’t care. He always used to carry my groceries, help with the laundry, try to do my dishes, it’s so confusing.. is it possible there is a man under there? I know there was a real woman under my behavior. sighs

Ox Drover


I know that I, and probably some of the rest of victims too, have done things as a result of our pain that we are NOT PROUD OF and are OUT OF CHARACTER for us.

Forgiving ourselves for these things can be difficult. But at the same time, I think it is NECESSARY to forgive ourselves.

To “not judge” someone else’s bad behavior because we have also “been bad” is one of those things we have to look at closely.

To me, the definition of “judging” someone is to think I can “read their minds” but the Bible tells us to LOOK AT THE FRUIT OF A TREE to determine if the tree is good or bad.

All people in the world, every last one of us (adults) are “sinners”–by that I mean we have thought and done things that are NOT NICE to one degree or another. But if we accept responsibility for those actions and “repent” (are really sorry for what we have done and change our ways) then we do not need to “tolerate” that behavior in someone else just because we once-upon-a-time did the same thing.

People CAN change their behaivor IF THEY WANT TO, the P though is inconsistent with his behavior and he never “changes” it he just changes his TACTICS.

Because you, in your pain from your childhood traumas engaged in some destructive behaviors does not mean that you should continue to feel “guilty” about these things and give any “slack” to the Ps, or think that they can “change”—the “nice things” they do for you (and you mentioned several) all have STRINGS attached. Even today if I went to my mother and asked to borrow money she would most likely lend it to me, or even give it to me, but I know the STRINGS and believe me, I would live in a tent and eat out of a dumpster before I would pick up “gifts with strings”—remember the old saying “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts?” (no insult to people of Greek heritage intended) but it is because when some people “do nice things” for you, it is because there is a HOOK IN THE BAIT. BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY, THAT IS ALWAYS THE CASE WITH THE Ps. (((hugs))))

Ox Drover

PS Kat–

I don’t “Pick fights” but I don’t always back down from them either. There are just some things that are NEVER OKAY and pointing a gun at someone–even an unloaded antique or reproduction of one is NOT EVER OKAY. It isn’t a JOKE. I didn’t take it as a joke. When I went off on him verbally and later called the cops his “apology” was–“Well, it wasn’t loaded, and I didn’t intend to shoot you, and I only pointed it at your butt anyway” My response was, “if you ever point one at me again, loaded or unloaded, the one I point back WILL BE LOADED and I will pull the trigger.” That was NOT a bluff.

In my life I have only pointed guns at three people and each time I was in peril, and I was prepared to pull the trigger if I had to. Once my sons and I were camping in Wyoming when some drunk oil rig workers came out into the wilderness area we were in and discovered us, I fully believe if I had not had my pisotol I would have been raped and/or murdered. Another time my GF and I were broken down on a major freeway one night and a drunk guy kept someing around the exits and stopping and on the 2nd or third trip, he tried to pull my GF into the car with him, ditto for the gun, and the third time I pointed it, I was working in a “stop and rob” all night convenience store on a major highway and a guy tried to rob the place. He had been in earlier that night and “acted strange” and “I trumped his ace” (“Never take a knife to a gunfight”) I probably wouldn’t have pulled it if he’s had a gun instead of a knife, unless I was pretty sure he was going to kill me anyway even if I gave him the money.

I’m not some “gun toting Ma Barker” by any means, but I grew up knowing how to shoot, and like the old joke says, “Don’t pick a fight with an old man, he probably will just kill you instead of fight.” LOL Well, if you substitute “old woman” for Old man, you get my drift.

BTW, if Henry goes straight, we’ll DUEL for him, how about SKILLETS AT 100 PACES? LOL

Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

I “ain’t” no Annie Oakley, by any means, but I am a good shot, and I WILL DEFEND myself. I don’t start fights, but if push comes to shove, I will do my best to END one, with me still breathing. LOL

Dear Kat, Oh, darn, Henry’s blown us both off, and I was looking forward to the “skillets at 100 paces” DUEL (I think that should have been safe for us both! LOL) The longest I have every been able to fling one is about 25 feet, they have the glide ration of a brick! (or less) I did do one at a living history event once, and a fire wood chunk, and another time I won the Blue Ribbon for the “worst singer in camp” prize! I also won the “liar’s contest” (telling the funniest biggest tall tale whopper) three years in a row. LOL

Well, here come the hurricaine Gus rains and winds, we are supposed to get between 6 and 10 inches this week total for the week, and rain every day til next monday I think. Oh, well, give me time to clean house–my FAVORITE THING—NOT!!


Henry we are only teasing.. and that was sweet what you said about still being with your ex-wife if you could have.

Oxy.. when my grandmother died, everyone was fighting over her antiques and her house, I just went in with my key and took … her iron skillet.. lol. I love that thing and still use it almost every day, and of course I always think of her when I do .

Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

I’ve always been hyperactive, even when I was a kid, always involved in a hundred projects at once, but actually I have slowed down quite a bit in the last few years and I’m “taking it easy now” since I RETIRED. I used to do all this and hold down a full time job too. LOL I would come home from work in the summer time when there was still 4 hours of day light after work and go out into the pasture and kill weeds. My friends used to say “why do you WORK so hard?” and they just didn’t understand that when you have been in a small office all day and listened to other’s problems all day, that to get out and GET PHYSICAL, and work up a sweat, and do something that is “MINDLESS” is RELAXATION. Lying on a couch watching TV eating bon bons would have been torture for me. Getting out and walking, working, doing things with my hands, or training the dogs, or halter breaking a calf, or even picking up rocks out of the pasture so they wouldn’t damage the mower, those things helped keep me sane.

Digging in the dirt, or planting things….all forms of “therapy” for me.

I love the living history demonstrations and going to schools and parks and playing “dress up” and “pretending” to be someone from long ago, telling that story to children (and adults) and making history REAL to them. Staying in character so that people believe you are WHAT you portray. Showing kids how their ancestors lived—without running water and electric lights or cars. Letting them get up close and personal with the oxen or ride in the wagon.

Some of my favorite times were when in the evening (the glomin) just before the sun set, to see the calves come up and get their supper before they went to bed, with their mothers licking their hair and “combing” it with their tongues.

To walk and work the land my ancestors watered with their sweat, blood and tears, so that I could enjoy it. That’s why it was so very difficult for me last year to get up here and leave because of the P, thinking I would never be able to come back here—this place, this piece of the Ozarks is my spiritual home, just like the Jews always say/said “Next year in Jerusalem” for years I said, “Next year on the farm” and my very soul is planted in this ground.

Back in early 05 when I got involved with the BF, he seemed to love the farm (he was looking for a respectable wife to cheat on LOL) and my community, and even my mother and my sons C and D. He seemed to love everything about me, about the farm, the things I liked to do. He was retired, liked to travel, and go to various living history things all over the country. He has been in my living history group longer than I have even. So it just seemed like a “marriage made in heaven”—only it was just the opposite. The tag should have read “MADE IN HELL” if it was telling the truth. So much for P-“truth in advertising!” LOL

The first few months we had a GREAT time, both here on the farm, at his deer camp in Louisiana, going to various events, camping, and hanging out with our friends. Three or four days here taking care of things and then three or four days off playing. In the evenings when we were here at the farm he would cook a great dinner for my son D and me, then we would read aloud to each other some of our favorite books, poems, etc. Man O man, did I think I had the greatest guy since sliced bread—for about four months—then it started to fall apart. By christmas it was over and I kicked him to the curb. In march he was at the yearly regional living history event where the fling had started with his newest squeeze, but since I was there he only stayed one day then left. (instead of the whole 2 weeks he usually stayed) Hadn’t seen him since march of 06 until he showed up at the auction in my community a few months ago, big as life and twice as ugly. Suprised me and made me anxious and mad that he was sneaking into my “territory.” But at the same time, I looked at him and wondered what I EVER SAW in him. He just looked twisted. Had the gall to sit right in front of my friend and me. I didn’t speak to him though.

Son D is “teaching” me to relax some, and I do…but still enjoy physical work too and it is helping me get my physical strength back as well as emotional strength. Good hard honest LABOR is good for us all–mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. I’m gonna WEAR OUT NOT RUST OUT.

Tomorrow though, I am going to create a stained glass pattern and not hit a “lick at a snake with a stick”—it’s raining outside so tomorrow is a day to create inside. The first piece to be made in my new “studio.”


Henry, them recontacting is not a sign they “care” about you. Recontact is just a sign they are not ready to give up their power and control over you yet, but it has absolutely nothing to do with them caring about you as a person or caring for your well being.

Ox Drover

Henry, I do understand, and Jen is RIGHT on, their contacting you only means that they want to keep CONTROL and power over you, but I would “bet the farm” when he gets kicked out at this current guy’s place if he doens’t have an immediate place to go, HE WILL SHOW BACK UP TO MOOCH. That’s the way they are too.

I think giving the cat away was a good thing, not a bad thing.

Yea I can definitely understand the “being in the desert without water” analogy–that’s the way I was after my husband died, I would have grabbed at anything that even REMOTELY RESEMBLED a glass of “water”—it just turned out that it was a P. Sheesh!

BTW–quit beating up on yourself–THAT’S MY JOB! So, dear Bro, if I ain’t beat’n up on you, you don’t NEED A BEATING! LOL And since you are my friend, if you beat up on yourself I will beat you up for hitting on my FRIEND! How about that for some twisted LOGIC. Sounds almost P-ish doesn’t it! LOL (((hugs))))

We’re drowning here in the rain from old Gus, so I’m hunkered down inside. Hope it lets up soon.

little tonys mom

i got mine to take a lie detecter test he failed he also tried to fool therapists that didnt last long and then he wouldnt go back

Ox Drover

Hello Tony’s mom,

Welcome to love fraud! Sometimes they can pass a lie detector test because they don’t get the anxiety we do about getting cvaught when we lie!

Glad you are here, “make yer self to home” this is a good place to heal if you have been involved with a Ps!

Frank Lee Speaking

from my own and other people’s experience this list is as close as any I have seen:

Sociopath/Psychopath Common Traits
(with Key Female Sociopath Identifying Traits and Behavior)

1. Waking up in a Pool of Sweat
2. Severe Migraines During Full Moons and Beginning of Menstrual Cycles
3. Needing at Most 4-5 Hours Sleep a Night
4. Inconsistent Timelines and Missing Past Histories
5. Eyes Dead and Lifeless/then Racing Frantically from Side-to-Side When Pulling off a Scam. No “Crows Feet” on females due to smiling with their teeth and not their eyes.
6. Falls Asleep and Wakes Up Instantly
7. Constantly Trying to Correct Others’ Opinions (arrogant pseudo-skeptic/debunker)
8. Narcissism/Boastful/Self Pity/”Why Me!” Sob Stories.
9. Righteous Indignation/Condescending/Always Right-Never Wrong
10. Crocodile Tears and Unconvincing Emotional Responses, Superficial Laughter
11. Extreme and Obvious Flattery ”“ Emulating/”Brown Nosing”/Sycophant
12. Idealisation Followed by Cold Rejection/Invented Persona to Manipulate Others
13. Sexual Promiscuity/Bi Sexuality/One Night Stands
14. History of Brief or Failed Relationships Ending Badly
15. Moving from State to State or Region Under Suspicious or Vague Circumstances
16. Claims to be the Only Person who Really Relates to You
17. Obsessed with the Latest Pharmaceuticals/Hypochondriac
18. Has No Real Creative Talent (can only copy other styles ”“ can’t innovate/be original)
19. Buys into Either Secular and Non-Secular Belief Systems to Act Superior/Enlightened
20. Gifts Designed to “Buy You” or to Mould You in a Certain Way (their taste in clothes, pop psychology books)
21. Lack of Emotional Depth in Terms of Others’ Problems/Hurt/Cheap Apology at Most
22. Little or No Interest in Parenting (even if they have children while claiming to adore them)
23. Easily Bored
24. Becomes Obsessed with Hobby or Causes/Individuals and then Loses Interest Instantly
25. Feels they are Entitled to the Best of Everything/Lights Cigarette without Asking if it is OK to Smoke.
26. Exploits Parents, the Elderly or Handicapped (money, free rent, getting into wills)
27. Defends Orthodoxy Based on Reading a Book/Discovery Channel/Penn and Teller
28. Claims to Have a Special Relationship with God or Faking Being Religious
29. Either Extreme Atheist or “Holy Roller”
30. Highly Unreliable/Broken Promises/Nothing is Ever their Fault
31. Wants to Know Your Every Move/Life Story ”“ While their Own is Elusive or Vague
32. High Testosterone (large clitoris/sexually aggressive/”pervy” pronounced Adam’s Apple in Females)
33. Parasitic Lifestyle/Slacker/Highly Strung “Genius”/Middle Aged Student



Frank lee – i think we need to ammend #13 – i don’t believe that we should call spath’s sexual orientation ‘bisexuality’, i think we should name it for what it is: ‘sexually predatory and exploitative behavior, prey can be of any sex.’


Frank Lee, this joke was written for the Spaths in our world.

A Holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, ‘Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like’. The Lord led the holy man to two doors.

He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in.

In the middle of the room was a large round table.

In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew, which smelled delicious and made the holy man’s mouth water. The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful. But because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths.

The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering.

The Lord said, ‘You have seen Hell.

They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew, which made the holy man’s mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking.

The holy man said, ‘I don’t understand.
‘It is simple,’ said the Lord. ‘It requires but one skill.
You see, they have learned to feed each other.

The greedy think only of themselves.’

When Jesus died on the cross, he was thinking of you.

Remember that I will always share my spoon with you!

Sharing a smile, laughter, love and sunshine ” are God’s healing gifts to you!


this is a beautiful parable wini. thanks for sharing.


One Step, Yes … it’s an oldie but goodie (LOL).


i’ve just sent it off to a friend who also works in the area of food justice, who will see the depth and wisdom in it.

Ox Drover

Did any of you see 20/20 tonight with the interview of Joran’s GF when he was 15? Even at age 15, he LOVE BOMBED HER with flowers and candy and all this (2003) then she found out he was doing the same thing to other girls and when she confronted him he LIED LIED LIED AND STUCK TO HIS STORY even in the face of EVIDENCE (sound like anyone we know?) then he kept telling her “Love is TRUST, you must trust me, TRUST ME TRUUUUUUSSSSSST MEEEEE” Well that didn’t last long.

When she saw him changing his stories on the Natalie Holloway cause she KNEW HE4 WAS LYING and this time he had texted her asking for money (after he killed the girl in Peru) wanting money said he had lost his card or ticket or something but she kne3w he would gamble it away and so she did not send it.l


It should sxome of the conditions in the various prisons there and so unless he is isolated he probably will be kiled as the local prisons are run by inmates (one prison for 2,000 has 10K prisoners there and the guards guard the fence and inside is the gangs run the prisons and have total control. The guards just keep escapes down with rifles from OUTside the prison. According to people interviewed who siad “If he had to kill two women to get caught, it was a joke from God for him to do it in Peru which is the worst prisons in the universe, -worse than Turkish.”

So I guess Karma bites boy! I think he would have been better off to have confessed in Aruba.

Right now he is held in a 1 man cell with a hole in the floor for toilet and mattress on a slab 6 x 10 ft. and eats the same food for the guards for security reasons. So that’s the lastest news on the SNAKE!


Oxy, I didn’t catch 20/20, but did catch CNN last night that said, the prison is putting on a show for the cameras aka being on their best behavior. They don’t give them Bibles to read and they certainly don’t have single cells for individuals. They are pilled in together. First come, first few get the bunks, the rest sleep on the floor.

Joran is in a single cell by himself (for now) because they want him to make it to trial. He is fed what the guards eat, which is not what the inmates eat. Actually, the inmates have to get their food sent in to the prison by family/friends or pay locals because the food is not edible in that prison. Therefore, the inmates do NOT eat the food that is prepared on site if they prepare food at all.

I’d say he is screwed and tattooed.

One down, how many millions to go?

Ox Drover

Well, no one expects him to survive very long unless he is kept in solitary and I doubt that he will be but you can buy anything there from guns to live in women to drugs. That American woman terrorist prisoner just released on parole, met and married her husband at a prison and has a 1 yr old baby with him. She just got out a couple of weeks ago, shot off her nasty terrorist mouth and they said well you are on parole but you must stay in peru til you sentence is up (5 more years) and today she told them she made a mistake and APOLOGIZED for the nasty things she said, I bettya she is wanting to come back to the states. Heck he is 40 years old, sick and with a 1 yr old baby (marriage fell apart)

Maybe I could get my P-son transferred to a prison in Peru, wonder how much it would cost? I bet Texas would go for it!!!


Oxy, I was thinking that all the states in the US would ship their Spaths over to Peru.

Ox Drover

We send garbage to china, so we could send our prisoners jover to china or the russian siberia and let them get some work out of them, or peru, pay the gov’t of peru 20$ a day in stead of $50,000 a year to keep them here, that right there would balance the budget, great Idea Wini, let’s get up a petition! LOL


Oxy, we send our garbage over to China? Funny. No one told our former Governor or the current Governor that? Garbage from a state over our border sends their garbage to my city. I used to call this Mt. … (former Gov’s name), now I call it Mt. (the city I live in). I’m waiting for the ski lodge to go up on the mountain top and see the ski borders flying down the hill … as they sail over the cars (yes, the mountain of garbage is on wet lands, next to our river that goes through our state … next to one of our major highway.

Weird thought, they put the new police station right next to the mountain? Does that say anything about our politicians caring about their constituents? Oh, and the city I live in is one of the major cities in our state. All the burbs come in to our fair city to work?

Go figure!

That’s progress for you. NOT!!!!

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