By Mary Ann Glynn, LCSW, located in Bernardsville, New Jersey
Partners in our support group are often confused by the fact that after a verbal outburst, physical abuse, or once the ruse is up, sociopaths may seem remorseful. They might see the consequence of their actions, may even cry and be emotional, or apologetic. There might be efforts to change by more responsive or caring behaviors. If the relationship gets pushed to the breaking point, they may engage in therapy. Most partners’ experience the sociopath in therapy as completely blaming everything on them and/or trying to control the therapy sessions. But, some had a different, more perplexing experience.
Their experience was that the sociopaths appeared to be quite motivated to improve the relationship and to made headway expressing remorse, feelings, even empathy for their partner. Their behavior seemed to make a turnaround so that their partner believed that they had seen the light, and that the loving caring person they used to be returned. Their faith was restored in the potential for a loving relationship and intact family. It’s not impossible after all, right?
In the end, even when everything looked promising, partners reported one of these things happened: 1) As soon as therapy ended, the sociopath’s behavior reverted back. 2) When therapy started getting into deeper underlying issues for behavior, the sociopath disengaged. 3) In trying to empathize with the pain or hurt they caused their partners, sociopaths were able to speak words of empathy, but their partner didn’t feel they got or felt it. This is very tricky. Empathy by definition means that you can feel another’s pain as if it were your own. What the brain feels when you perceive someone else’s pain, or any other emotion for that matter, is the identical experience as if you yourself were going through it.
If, in a couples session, partner1 is openly sharing hurt, etc., and partner2 attempts to empathize, partner1 can always “feel” if partner2 gets, or feels, it too. If that happens, partner1 feels connected to partner2, and vice versa. What happened with sociopaths is, even if they express words of empathy for their partner’s feelings, their partner does not feel they are getting (feeling) it. The sociopath may even seem to be showing emotion, but it’s not their partner’s emotion — they’re more likely stuck in their own feelings of shame or victimhood. Pay attention to this if you go to therapy with a sociopath! When you don’t feel “heard”, like your partner can’t get to feeling your emotion, they are not empathizing with you.
Temporary remorse
So let’s get back to remorse. Remorse should affect behavior — not temporarily, but permanently. It’s about conscience, which is completely dependent on the ability to empathize. There are times we are all capable of turning down our consciences when it serves us, like telling a lie, taking supplies home from work, being defensive about our behavior, being insensitive, losing our tempers, being petty. But, once someone tells us openly how our behavior affects them, our conscience should make us have a different response.
For example, if you blow off plans with a friend several times without thinking anything of it, and then the friend comes to you and expresses hurt, rejection, not feeling important to you, or whatever, you are likely to feel their pain (empathy) and feel bad/guilty. If that friend identifies a childhood trigger in there, e.g. being blown off made them feel like in middle school when the group made rejected them, then your empathy quotient jumps much higher! Are you likely to blow off this friend anymore? No! If you had no ability to feel your friend’s hurt, your response would likely be defensive and cold, because it would just be about your indignation for them perceiving you that way.
No empathy — no remorse
If someone is not capable of empathy, they are not capable of remorse, and therefore change. Period. The brief feelings of remorse or regret you witness in a sociopath is likely to be about screwing something up they wanted (shame) or losing someone or something they wanted (victimhood) – in other words, it’s for themselves. They may believe themselves that they are making great strides in honesty and change — but it never really gets past their narcissism to feeling your pain. It’s more like a brief soiree into the anxiety of having lost control or lost something, in which they scramble to regain control and/or it. Once they regain control or what they lost, they’re done changing. Being disconnected from your feelings, they have no reason to keep up the change, and default back to being the way they were.
Katherine Underwood, in disguise, pursues her ex, Budimir Drakulic, who owes her $1.6 million
When you all left your spouses, were your friends and family aware of the dysfunction in your marital relationship? In other words, had they seen his behavior? I guess what I am getting at is when I get to the point that I have walked away, I know most of my friends and family will be completely dumbfounded. Most people think we had the perfect marriage, in public he treated me very well and showered me with expensive presents. I see now it was a pattern we had developed, he would fly into a rage, but then later he would “buy” my silence…….and I allowed it.
In fact, I have shared some of my experiences recently with a sister that I trust very much. She is one of the kindest people I know. And all she can say is that she doesn’t know this husband I am describing, she has never seen any of it. She wasn’t being ugly, only acknowledging what she had seen.
This is a second marriage for both my husband and I. When I announced my first divorce, it literally threw my family for a loop. I was the first divorce, in hundreds of years, within my family. Worse thing than going through a divorce was the judgement of my family. Seriously.
In fact, I have been married seven years to my husband, and reflecting on our marriage I think one of the reasons I didn’t get to this point sooner was because of the fear of another divorce. My two daughters, both young 20-somethings, asked me a few weeks back what I was most afraid of. I responded, “Telling my family I am getting another divorce.” They both asked if I heard myself talking! It was at that moment that I realized I had looked the other way for too long. I also wonder if my husband used this very fact against me as he knew how vulnerable I was with my family and I had often stated I would NEVER get another divorce.
But I digress, were people surprised when you announced you had left your husbands and if so, how did you handle it? I just want to move on with my life.
Thanks for “listening”,
Platinum…yes, when I got divorced from my husband who was not a spath, everyone was shocked. But you cannot worry about that. It is your life. They are not living it. You have to do what is best for you. Truly. My best friend is going through a divorce right now after 23 years and she was also afraid of what people would think, but the pain she was in due to being married to a psycho became much greater than what she thought people would “think” of her. Trust me, in the long run, most people don’t care that much. You know how people are…it’s always the latest news. So yeah, if you do it, everyone may be shocked at first, but then people forget because after all, most people are all about themselves, so they will only focus on you and your “shocking” divorce for a minute and then they will move onto the next thing. So never let what people may think about something in YOUR life determine your decisions! It’s about your life, not them and if you are suffering and realize this man is never going to change, get out. Just my two cents…
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No one suspected anything, including our sons. The only thing that appeared “off” to others was that he had taken a job out of state and was commuting home, which would strain any marriage.
My ex had become extremely successful in his career and this carried over in that he became the ‘expert’ on everything in our lives. So, my sons really looked up to him. I kept all the dirt away from them and never shared it with anyone but my closest friend and my sister.
Having to tell my elderly parents, who absolutely worshipped my husband as the “son they never had” and had known him since he was 15, nearly did me in. I had kept all the dirt from them as well. I was the only one of the four children in our family to have never divorced…this was a huge blow to them.
Our friends and neighbors were shocked, but I assume they figured it had to do with his work situation out of state.
I had to have intensive therapy to get through these steps. At one point, I realized that because of my ex’s many secrets and lies, it was possible my sons knew things or heard things…perhaps I had not shielded them as I had thought.
I came to understand that living with secrets in a family system is very toxic, and I wanted to break the cycle of this sort of family dynamic so that future generations could be healthier. Eventually, I consulted a sex addiction specialist just to discuss how or if I should share that specific information with my sons since it was his sex addict behaviors that put me over the edge.
After much preparation, I shared with my sons how it unfolded from MY perspective, never using labels for their father, but describing how his behavior affected our relationship and caused it to end. They were 20 and 25 yrs old at the time. It was very hard to share this, but I felt I had to. My oldest son said he did know some things but not others – I’ve never learned what those things are, but I was glad I told him. I was honest and told about my shortcomings as well.
That was about 5 years ago. One of the points of my discussion with them was that I wanted them to break the cycle of secrets and that I would always be honest with them, which I have done. My younger son was very upset by the talk, and at several points almost left.
As time has gone by, I think they have seen how their father’s behavior now is nothing like they thought he was…he’s moved on with a new wife and step-daughter and is often clueless in dealing with our sons, tho he does stay in touch. But I know they are very hurt by his behavior.
And as for all those people I thought assumed we had the perfect marriage? Some of since shared things surprised me – some of it quite disturbing.
So, just because you think you’ve presented this perfect image to the world, it’s very possible others have seen through it.
I realize this is rather lengthy, but I hope some of it helps.
Platinum,
Everyone was shocked when I left my husband after 14 years of marriage. One of my friends said, “We all thought you had the perfect marriage”. Well, sorry I kept my marital issues to myself! That doesn’t mean the problems didn’t exist. I felt that if I told people about our issues, our marriage would be doomed for sure. We lived in a small town with small town gossip. Everyone lives in a fish bowl and knows everyone’s business. I came from the city and the small town gossip disgusted me to no end.
Actually, I did mention my ex-husband’s alcoholism to a couple of friends, whose eyes then glazed over and they uncomfortably wanted to change the subject. Why? Because they were all living the same life, but in denial. Alcoholism is very prevalent where I live and many of my ex-friends act like they aren’t living that life. I am a realist and it’s impossible for me to sweep my problems under the rug.
In the beginning, I felt that I needed to explain why I left. What I discovered is that people believe what they want to believe, and it does no good to explain. I was once told, “when you explain yourself, you accuse yourself”. That quote is true. However, there’s also another quote that goes, “there are 2 sides to every story, just make sure you tell yours first”. So true too. I am conflicted about if I should have told my story to everyone. Probably not, because I then go back to the fact that people believe what they want to believe.
And when I told my counselor I decided to leave, she made me aware that the one that leaves usually takes the blame, even though they’re usually the one who tried hardest to make it work. When I lost all hope, I knew I couldn’t stay. I did make myself give it one more year, but it was over.
Looking back, I think it was over for my ex, but he was in denial about it. In the last year, he told me I was no one when we met, said he didn’t care if he never had sex again (to our employee, in front of me) and treated me as if I were below him. When a friend wanted to have a 40th birthday party for me, he said I didn’t need one, I had him. Can you believe it?? He told her that twice and then my birthday came and went as just another day.
It got to the point where I lost all hope that things would change. I started thinking about where I wanted to be at age 50, and I knew I couldn’t be in that situation at 50. I left a year later and have not regretted it.
My ex was not the psychopath. The psychopath was the first person I dated while going through my divorce. I was going through a crisis which made me vulnerable. I shouldn’t have been dating at all.
Do what is best for your health and well being. Take care and best wishes.
Vicki
SER,
You. Are. So. Right.
Thank you!
You are welcome! I wish all the best to you!
Platinum,
I’m so glad you are absorbing all of the info you are being giving and are finding. I would like to offer a strong warning. As I have stated before, I am not much further along in this process than you.
Your husband knows you and knows your demeanor. I’ve found that I have a lot of trouble acting like I have no suspicions when I really am alarmed. That is because I am an authentic person and I can sense that you are the same. You may want to be very aware that he will try to control you with emotions. If he senses any change in you, he will turn on the charm and make you doubt yourself and fall back under his spell. Then he will yank his kindness away and make you feel crazy for ever doubting yourself. They hate losing control and will do anything to get it back.
I’m in that position right now. It’s impossible for me to have no contact right now, but that is the best thing. The hardest thing for me is to look at the man I loved and to actually feel that he is my enemy. But he is. Your husband is too. Now that I know the truth, it’s easier notice his manipulation but unfortunately, it still has the desired affect to some extent. No one with a soul can outsmart a Spath. There’s just no way! They are heartless and approach life in a really self serving even evil way. Please stay on guard.
He is going to jerk you around. You will think that you can not endure anymore. But now that you know,there is no chance of going back to the innocent oblivion that you had before. Please view every move by him as exactly that, a move.
I read somewhere an example of the emotional tactics they use. This has been proven through scientific experiments.
If you take a mouse and offer it a feeder that supplies food every time he taps it, then the mouse is satisfied.
If you feed the mouse continuously and then just stop (no more food). The mouse will come to the feeder again several times, but will eventually lose interest.
Here’s the important fact. If you give the food intermittently….say once in a while he gets food and then every three times he taps and doesn’t…..then maybe every seventh time and then back to every time…..and so on. The mouse will become obsessed with getting food from the feeder. Her never knows if he taps if he is going to be satisfied or not, so he keeps coming back.
That is how the spath treats us. They give a little love sometimes and then withhold, they give more love, withhold for longer, then love bomb, then withhold, and so on and so on. We never know when we will get validation from them so we keep going back, thinking this will be the time he really loves me and changes.
IT AIN’t GONNA HAPPEN! (Pardon my southern slang) 🙂
It’s very difficult to work through this process when you live with someone or are in contact with them. I battle the urge all the time. The worse thing I can do is fall into a pattern of begging for his validation.
Just hoping that the more examples you have, the better you will be able to be strong and stay focused on the future. I’ve made too many mistakes because I didn’t know, or I weaken myself with hope against reality.
Hello Hoping
Your mousey example is very illuminating and spot on.
I remember when I realized my husband was torturing me like a cat does a mouse. I DENIED it. But I also tested it (manipulative of me, I KNOW!). I set him up to see his response. And darned (not the four letter word that I used at the time), if my instinct was right. I moved out. I am not a good pretender, so I did have to go no contact. He would have realized what I was up to and changed his behavior.
I STILL questioned my sanity and what I had learned, until I saw his emails. We had a joint email account. I guess since I moved out of the house, he assumed I would not use email. I saw what he wrote to several women, I saw how he was TROLLING, baiting them, not saying the words, but implying. Every one of them bit.
That was how I knew I’d been had, and how it had happened. He implied. I assumed. I bit the bait.
I spent the next decade fighting myself, thinking surely someone would not PURPOSELY do the cruel thoughtless things he did. He told me that I was mistaken. I WANTED to be wrong! But once he was mask off, I knew too much. When he put the mask back on, I knew better. That was when the abuse and smear and fraud and gaslighting really ramped up. My life was a total nightmare until the divorce was final. (Then it calmed down to merely total misery until I decided to heal.)
Just wanted to amen your mouse scenario. And how I still tried to stay in denial… I am free now, by the grace of God, and those blatant “charming” emails!
Platinum,
It is most likely that your friends and family will not understand. No one can really understand what a sociopath is until they’ve dealt with one. Do what you have to do anyway. You can get your validation here, at least. I found it easier to cut off contact with those who sided with the spath. You have to have no contact from all people/events that retraumatize you, in order to begin the healing process, even if those people are friends and family members.
Platinum,
Everyone is giving good insights. When I left the sociopath everyone thought I was crazy, because he seemed like the catch of the century. Good looking, funny, life of the party, ‘deep’, motivated, confident, sought after, well-spoken, fit……I think many of them even sniggered at my loss, glad to see me lose ‘so much’. Other than this site, and two close friends, it was pretty lonely. I won’t lie. It was hard, for me, to sit with my truth without much validation.
Lovefraud actually was the place of support that saved my butt! Most of the folks I ‘knew’ back then have moved on, but the information, the insights, pain, confusion, facts…..those are still the same here. This is a place to rest and be ‘seen’ by others who truly understand.
And, as Stargazer wrote, I had to clean out my friends and family to regain my sanity. Some friends have rejoined my life, and are more educated about my ordeal. Some were permanently let go. My family situation was not as tight as yours so that was not much of a big deal for me.
And, as Hoping points out, he is going to try lots of different tactics to regain control at this point. He will really want to keep you off balance and mired in self-doubt. That way you will have a hard time extricating yourself, and gaining control of your own happiness.
For me I had to stop all contact. I didn’t allow texts, emails, calls, letters. Nothing. For nearly 4 years. Now, I can make sure he hasn’t moved in next door and it doesn’t floor me. It’s been 6 or so years. Time, if it is spent wisely, is a great healer….
I lost lots of $. I just let it go. I paid off a bunch of ‘our’ debts (his, I never used any of the $). It just wasn’t worth it to fight with someone who would never ‘play fair’. I let it go. It was hard. My pride, many times, wanted to re-engage and ‘win the battle’.
But I didn’t do it. And, I survived. I am now thriving! I am married (sweet, strong, honest, handsome man), and my life is STABLE, comfortable, quiet, fun…..sane.
Donna is also TOTALLY spot on. Do NOT share any details about what you are doing, who you see, what your future plans are. Keep your ‘cards close to your chest’. Secure your money, including retirement funds. Make sure there are no shared passwords, or joint $’s he can take. Don’t worry if you feel foolish or like you are being paranoid and ‘overdoingit’. Just take care of you.
He will absolutely take care of him. You don’t need to concern yourself with him in the least. He never does anything (I am guessing) but take care of #1.
xo, Slim
Slim, laughing at your “deep” comment. *chuckle chuckle*
It’s a wonder more sociopaths don’t go into acting, a career for which they possess supernatural abilities.
I tried to post. I’m sure I was so insightful and wise. But it disappeared. How did my ex do that? LOL
Slimone,
The word paranoid. I FELT things were off before I found evidence. I was told I was crazy, paranoid.
Platinum,
I learned. A little paranoia can be a very healthy thing!
Trust but verify. Yep. That’s why I do for everything now.
When I think of the traits of my ex husband? NO remorse. NO remorse. NO remorse. (he’d Pretend, but later I’d find out, NO remorse.)
Slimone,
So glad to hear you are remarried to a Real person! At this point, I still believe the lies about how no one would ever want me. My confidence is slowly returning.
I also am strengthened by how many LF members are actually at peace with having to give up so much just to get away. It’s a testament to how stinkin bad the life with these predators are.
Thanks for sticking around after your healing, to help the rest of us!
Stargazer, it makes you wonder how many true actors are Spaths. 🙂
Notwhathesaidtome, I agree, being paranoid it absolutely required in dealing with this kind of manipulation. However, I would add that everyone should be careful with whom they share their suspicions. If the Spath has convinced everyone that he is wonderful, then the abused person comes off looking unstable. If I were Platinum, I would make good notes of everything I see and keep the notes in a safe place. One day she may need that info.
HopingToHeal,& Platimum & any other who is uncovering the God Awful Truth….
I caught myself (maybe you caught me too?, Hoping.) being glib. My humor has come back and I am still learning to be aware of it, to temper it with good sense. I am SO SO happy to be free of my husband – although I have a different nightmare/different crushing pain now.
Yes, Everyone should be careful with EVERYONE with whom they share, be wary of even people who have suffered from sociopaths. They can be invalidating in their pain.
And yes yes yes. Document. Document. Document. Times/dates/names/any witnesses. Even though later he might play he said/she said, the anecdotal evidence over time can be very compelling. I had started a notebook when I was told too many times that I had remembered something wrongly. So I started writing down the incidents. Whoa! Now I read them and the gaslighting is obvious. I have over 40 notebooks. And enough evidence that I can link financial records to those journals, proof of his fraud. I still keep my records at someone’s house that my husband did not know (because my husband was VERY good at getting my closest friends to align with him, friends I had known for 30 years betrayed me for him. Broke my heart to be so easily tossed aside so they’d get his &@.......?&! approval. grrr. Water under the bridge now.)
Once you realize NOTHING was real, you’ll realize even small stuff can be BIG proof.
TO Platinum
I am so so sorry because I think his illogical tirade about your ring has ulterior meaning. He knows that ring means something to YOU, but… sorry…. I am thinking it did not mean what it should have to him. Am thinking that’s why he tried to sting you with it, why he made sure it still meant something to you.
Dear Not:
There is an article here somewhere about a “pseudo-personality” that victims of sociopaths adopt. The sociopath brainwashes them into thinking they are a certain way and things are a certain way – all what the sociopath wants you to believe. It would make sense that in the early stages of breaking free, it would be difficult to know whom to trust – to know who is on your side. That is because you haven’t yet recovered your real feelings. As you begin to find your own voice and your own sense of your self, you will get a sense of who is truly validating to you and who is not. And who is sabotaging you. This is the beauty of no-contact. The longer you can stay away from toxic people, the easier it will be to recognize them. You will know by how you feel around them.
But in the beginning it’s hard to trust anyone, even yourself.
Such good information here. I read some of these posts right before walking into dinner at a restaurant with my husband. Lots of strength and great advice from everyone.
Dinner lasted all of 40 minutes and I couldn’t get out of the restaurant fast enough. Our counselor had told us we were not to bring up divorce and sure enough the first thing out of my husband’s mouth was what are we going to do? We have an annual trip with two other couples planned for the end of April (it has been planned for months) and he asked about that. I told him I didn’t think I could go, but he should go with the others and we should take the money he was going to spend on a designer purse for me on this trip and use it for therapy or to get an apartment for him. (He has been staying in a hotel for the past 4 weeks.) He asked if I really thought we needed therapy. Laughable! Um, I don’t trust you, you’re a liar, on and on.
Then he tells me he is coming to get some more of his belongings and points to my hand with my wedding band on it and says to let him know if I take it off. I asked him to explain what he was talking about. He said to let him know if I took my ring off so he could take his off. I asked him if he ever really knew who I was! That is NOT the kind of person I am!
And here we go…..yet another shit show. (Sorry, don’t mean to offend anyone but this so aptly describes what happens!) Many of you have said NO contact, but I want to believe I can rationally talk to him. And yes, he does mess with my emotions. NotWhatHeSaidofMe you are right, the mask slipped off, I see it now and I know we can never really go back to what we were……or what I THOUGHT we were.
Thank you to all who posted about friends and families reactions, how you guys handled it, etc. It clarified my thinking and helped me see when it comes down to it, I could care less what others think if it means staying in more shit shows. (Sorry, couldn’t resist and it feels so good!)
Blessings to all,
Wow, Platinum, really does sound like a shit show. First he sabotages the therapy right off the bat. Then he tries to control you over several things (the trip and your wedding ring – which BTW what jewelry you wear or don’t wear is none of his business – as if you would be running right out to find another mate!) He sounds completely pompous, controlling, and narcissistic. If he’s a sociopath on top of that, it’s just the icing on the cake. Where is the room for you and your separate identity?
But back to my first observation. He sabotaged the therapy. I hope you mention this to the therapist when he asks how your homework went.
Stargazer,
You zoned in on adjectives for Platinum’s husband’s behavior. But you missed listing that Platinum’s husband also sounds overbearing, tyrannical, petty, and (can I say this here?)… B chy (esp when he did the ring thing. Way bizarre.) It’s the typical pattern but I like to shine the light of truth on their behavior. He’s not questioning, not trying to figure anything out. He’s pushing his agenda, which sadly, clearly, is not to save his marriage or relationship but as you point out, (~nwhsom, harmonizing with your tune here) he’s out to dominate and control.
It’s the same ol song I heard. But gggrrrr. I’m not cowed by it anymore.
I am ready and willing to stand up and fight for others. gggrrrrr. Information is POWER.
Oh and H to H: Acting as a career is hard work and long hours. I doubt a sociopath is up for the task.
I was just joking. You are right, Acting does takes lots of dedication, hard work, and education.
These relationships are extremely difficult,even therapy is a betrayal, its sad. But I am recovering well. No contact. That’s the very best medicine. Peace and love 😊
Wonderful information. After my marriage vows, I learned my spouse was “bipolar” as diagnosed by his female therapist. I always felt betrayed and stunned by her continual protection of him and attempts to “explain” his behavior, always telling me that her loyalty in confidentiality was to him. I called like a lunatic to try to get my bearings and she felt that I was problematic. She told me I could never approach problems head on with him, that he walked several paces in front of me because he was clearing the way, and that my financial drain by him and his clan was do to my being another person in the household.
Foolishly I went to marriage counseling with her as the mediator/director – that was an error but the only way he would agree…it seemed to go well until I broached the topic of his mother’s possible covert incest. When I called to verify the next appointment, she curtly told me via her receptionist that he alone was her client and there would be no more sessions.
I was hurt and confused and felt I had no place to turn at the time. It has been five years and life is better, I am letting anger at this lady go…and all the mess is a memory, but it still affects me…in many ways.
Becky,
Did you ever feel like the therapist was in a personal relationship with your husband? I’ve had that feeling before.
Hello Hoping…
Having such an uncomfortable feeling during therapy is extraordinarily counterproductive!!!
Hope you voiced your concern and left the session!! If in reality you discover that your licensed therapist has a relationship with a client, please report that person to the licensing board!! They would not be practicing as a professional therapist for too much longer!
Remember how easily people are duped ( I was!!) by the sociopath….BUT never on God’s green earth would it ever occur to me to cross an ethical professional boundary. Most therapists are ethical empathetic professionals. If a client voiced discomfort about the therapeutic process with me I would definitely make that a priority to address. Therapy works only if there is a safe environment. If you feel uncomfortable always bring that up. Either you will learn more about yourself during those discussions or you will feel validated. Then know that if there are ethical violations you always have recourse and can empower yourself by using those!!!!
While we figure out the aftermath of dealing with those @.......#$#@.......…we need every ounce of support and empowerment we can get!!!