Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me

Hello my friends”¦

It’s so nice to be here, to discuss the subjects of narcissism and sociopathy.

I’d like to begin by asking each of you, one at a time, to tell us a little about me and what you hope to give me in our short time together?

Uh huh”¦hmmm”¦very interesting”¦.

As we continue circling the room, if it’s alright with you, I’d like to hear a little less about you, and more about me?

Okay, now that we’re done with the introductions”¦.

Let me formally begin by stating something fairly obvious: Narcissists and sociopaths are people you’ll want to avoid. Does this make sense? Are we in unanimity about this?

By the way, I want you to feel free during this presentation, at any point, to stretch my legs and get me a cup of coffee, to ensure my good circulation and alertness? (Incidentally, I like my coffee light with six sugars.)

My friends (and no, I’m not John McCain), I wonder whether any of you, right now, can look yourselves in the mirror and honestly say that you are completely attuned to me and, more important, humbled by the vast expertise I bring to this subject matter?

But I digress”¦.we are here, after all, to discuss me, not narcissists and sociopaths. (Excuse, I meant that the other way around!)

The gentleman over there, yawning, who is texting as I speak? You must be a sociopath, sir; or, at a minimum, a deranged narcissist, to have the gall to enter my audience and so blatantly disrespect me!

I’d suggest, sir, that you think less about that text message and more about the insulting message you send me with your contemptuous behavior?

By the way, my friends, I point that man out over there not to single him out and shame him gratuitously, but rather to identify live, spontaneous examples of narcissism and sociopathy right before your eyes.

Remember, my friends, by some estimates upwards of 4% of the general population are sociopaths! I believe that estimate comes from Martha Stout who, for purposes of her book sales (The Sociopath Next Door) lobbied for 26% as the figure, but after a noisy fight deferred to her publisher’s attorneys.

By my math, this means that, conservatively, at least four of you in the audience are clinical sociopaths. Well, I believe I’ve exposed the first!

Sir, sit down”¦where are you going? You can’t leave!! Sit back down, sir!!

Excuse me? You’re outraged? Did you say you were “outraged?”

Did you hear that, folks?

Listen to me, you arrogant jerk! Sit back down!!

You’re lucky I didn’t call security on you already for disrupting my presentation with your text messaging!! Now you compound your rudeness by deigning to escape with the blithe impudence of a sociopath?

My friends”¦this is the narcissist’s (or in his case, more likely the sociopath’s) contempt on full, alarming display!

Let me tell you something, sir, if I wasn’t so consumed with who I am, I’d be more interested to know who you are, if only to use my clout to ensure that you are permanently banned from all continuing education seminars—not just mine—in perpetuity!

You scoff, sir?

There it is”¦right there, my friends. Again”¦notice the contempt! See it for yourselves.

Fine”¦let him leave. We’re better off without him.

Now where were we?

Oh yes”¦just a reminder”¦we will break for lunch at 12 and I’d like you back no later than by 12:10.

That should give you enough time to scarf something down, and prepare for the brilliant material to come this afternoon.

And by the way, in order to avoid the congestion of those of you trying to crash my dining-room table to lunch with me, I will draw, in advance of our lunch-break, five names from a hat to establish who my dining table-mates will be.

This will be a random drawing, and I must warn you that I am not open to bribes, although I will note that those of you who buy my books—especially many of them—in the next hour or so, in the hall right outside this conference room, can expect special consideration.


The narcissist and sociopath”¦

Who are these individuals, my friends?

The scary thing is that they are our friends, our family, our colleagues, our doctors, our lawyers, our stockbrokers, our mates, and most chilling, our mail-carriers.

What else do we know about them?
We know that individuals with these warped personalities tend to regard others as “objects.”

As a matter of fact, if you leave here with nothing else, with, let us say, just a single, critical concept, let it be this: I know what I’m talking about.

As I was saying, these deviant individuals treat others not like individuals, but like objects. Remember this, because the implication is paramount: when you view others as a something, instead of a someone, it becomes easier to treat that person as a thing, not a person.

Hey you! Over there! Yeah, you! What are you, deaf? Do me a favor and turn the thermostat down, over there by the door. Yeah, right over there, by the door. Knock it down at least several degrees. I’m hot. Extremely hot.

Jesus Christ, yeah, you! That’s right”¦get up”¦out of your seat”¦then walk over to the wall, and jack the thermostat down. Get it, Einstein?

We know, by the way, that the narcissist will have little genuine interest in your experience while being pretty much entirely consumed in his”¦and his comfort.

What, people? You’re cold? That’s ridiculous. How can you be cold? You must be hallucinating! Because it’s hot in here! Nobody in their right minds could be cold when it’s so obviously, intolerably hot and stuffy in here.

Excuse me?
I’m invalidating your experience?

Sweetheart, what hypersensitivity drugs are you on? I’m merely stating an undeniable fact.

What? Don’t call you sweetheart?

Jesus, is this a feminist convention, or a continuing education seminar?

By the way, nobody touch the thermostat now that that cretin over there finally figured out how to adjust it.

I’m just kidding, calling you a cretin. God, you’re a hypersensitive crowd.

But seriously, if anyone so much as dares mess with the thermostat, you’re asking to see a side of me I’d prefer not to reveal.

My friends, sociopaths are fascinating creatures.

My god, have you ever had someone lie to your face, someone who makes an art form of lying convincingly, regardless of his patent guilt, for whom the very act of lying audaciously is a form of entertainment, satisfaction?

What I’m saying, my friends, is that, for the sociopath, the payoff is often the getting away with something; it is often the thrill of the game; the thrill of perpetrating fraud against others!

Come again? My doctorate? Are you questioning my credentials?

Read my lips and look into my eyes, and tell me if I’m lying: My doctorate is legitimate.
How dare you insinuate otherwise!

As the blurb on the seminar brochure says, I graduated at the top of my class from the College of America in 1985, with a Ph.D., MD., and JD. That makes me a psychologist, medical doctor, and lawyer—in other words, someone you don’t wanna mess with.

Now let me go a step further, as I look every single one of you in the eye from my podium: Not only are my doctorates legitimate, but so is everything in my biography.

That’s right, I dare any one of you to disprove a single assertion in my biography, including my claims to have studied closely with Carl Rogers, Gordon Allport, and Louis Pasteur.

Sure, I’m smiling. I’m smiling from the enviable position of a man who knows that he’s betrayed (excuse me, I meant conveyed) his integrity.
That was a Fraudian slip, people. Excuse me, I meant Freudian”¦that was a wholly innocent mistake. Don’t even go there.

Grandiosity”¦grandiosity. Let me look at my notes on grandiosity.

The narcissist and sociopath often have serious grandiosity issues”¦.hmmm.

Speaking of grandiosity, I routinely like to humble the clinicians I supervise by sharing the story of how Rogers—that’s right, Carl Rogers—once told me, “Len, you’re my favorite. You’re my favorite student. My most brilliant student. You will carry my work forward.”

Yes, this story tends to curb my students’ grandiosity.

You’re all shaking your heads”¦in appropriate awe, no doubt?

My friends, for the narcissist, even more than the sociopath, his grandiosity is a defense. The narcissist requires, like an addict, the experience and perception of himself as special, as above others.

Unless the narcissist is catered to, and treated as a sort of celebrity, he feels depressed, worthless, which typically takes the form of his anger and rage.

You two!! Knock it off!! How dare you whisper to each other while I’m speaking!!

Do I need to remind you people that I don’t have to be here. Don’t you get that? I don’t have to be here, people. You do; I don’t.

Last warning; this is my last warning. You people really are testing my patience.

Where was I, before your latest rude disturbance?

Anyway, I’ll tell you an interesting, and perhaps even edifying, story.

Once upon a time there was a married couple. And the wife periodically confronted the husband, “You know what? You’re a goddamned psychopath. That’s what you are. You put on a good front for the public. But make no mistake, you’re a masquerader. I know your deal. You’re a psychopath. And I’m gonna let people know. I’m no longer going to suffer your abuse in silence.”

And the husband laughed with great contempt, because he had great contempt for his wife. And he appreciated neither her scathing tone, boldness, nor, of course, her threat.

And the very next day the wife went missing. And was never to be found.

And the husband told each of his subsequent wives, of whom there were successively three, that they could never measure up to the first, his missing wife.

He’d probably never get over her loss, he’d tell them, with watering eyes.
His undiminished love for her, his first wife, probably was, he’d admit tearfully, holding him back. But he couldn’t help that, of course. His missing wife, after all, was the love of his life, and so maybe he was, he’d suggest, simply too scarred to ever get over it.

And his seeming vulnerability and seeming raw, emotional honesty made it much harder for his later wives to hold him accountable.

Why do I tell you this story, my friends?

Is it my story?

Not really. I know where my wife went”¦I’m convinced she returned to her family somewhere in eastern Mississippi where, I believe, she assumed a new identity and hence as if just dropped off the face of the earth.

Oh no, my wife is alive and well somewhere”¦she just doesn’t want anyone from her past to know about it.

I know exactly what you’re thinking, my friends: She, not I, is the psychopath?

You are a good crowd, very shrewd”¦yes you are.

And her successful disappearance proves just that, does it not? That she, not I, is the psychopath!

After all, only a psychopath, my friends, can just up one day, abandon her family, disappear permanently, and unconscionably leave a cloud of suspicion hanging over her betrayed husband!

Forgive me my tears”¦.I’m a very emotional man who, as you can see, has very deep feelings about this, still.

God, I miss her”¦that woman.

And every day I tell my kids, who are still young, “Don’t worry”¦she won’t be coming home”¦” Excuse me, that was another Fraudian slip”¦I meant to say I tell them, “Don’t worry, children”¦someday, when mama’s ready, she’ll reach out”¦and announce herself again”¦meanwhile, you must ignore those scurrilous, persistent rumors that have hounded me all your lives, rumors of my”¦uh”¦”˜involvement’ in your mother’s disappearance?”

I don’t mean to spin off on this, my friends, but you understand, don’t you, that that student intern with whom I took up just prior to my wife’s disappearance”¦you do realize that the timing of that was, of course, entirely coincidental?

It’s a funny thing, my friends, how in this cynical age we live in, nobody believes in coincidence anymore. How sad”¦how jaded”¦how tragic.

Where was I?

Sociopaths”¦yes, sociopaths are eternally intriguing personalities, my friends.

My friends, we are nearing time for a bathroom break. That is because, naturally, I have to go to the bathroom.

Before we break, and please be ready to resume promptly in no later than 40 seconds, I want to say something about the legendary psychopathy clinician Hervey Cleckley. Cleckley, you know, wrote the classic on psychopaths called “The Mask Of Sanity.”

If you haven’t yet read it, although it now costs about $850 for a used copy, you’re an idiot.

Anyway, I should tell you I was supervised by Dr. Cleckley himself as part of my externship right out of the University of Alabama. I sought Dr. Cleckley out myself, on my own initiative, and let me just say that after we spoke privately in his home office for exactly half an hour, he said, and I quote, “Young man, you are clearly a gifted young clinician. I was unprepared to take on another disciple, but I must say, now that I’ve met you, I wouldn’t think of missing the opportunity. By the way, have you read all six editions of my book?”

I answered, “No, Dr. Cleckley, just the five,” impressing him that I wouldn’t fall for his trick question (the sixth edition wouldn’t appear for some years later, until after his death).

As an aside, you might be interested to know that Dr. Cleckley referenced me frequently in his lectures to other psychiatrists and psychologists, referring to me as “my protégé Len.”

Who’s laughing?

You! Over there! Stand up!

My friends, here you have Exhibit A, standing naked before you, of insecurity, compensation, and envy!!

Your laughter, young man, is obviously a compensation”¦a compensation for the shame you undoubtedly feel at lacking the ability to grasp—to even begin to grasp—the profundity of my clinical wisdom and the intimidating gravity of my experience. This is all transparently obvious, young man. You are a fool.

I’ll tell you what, my friends. Let’s end this lecture, for the present, right here. It seems as good a moment as any. Besides the call of my bladder, I’m feeling some hunger pangs of surprising intensity and tenacity.

It is now 10:55; let’s reconvene no later than 11:05.

Remember, my books are displayed in the hall outside the room. My assistant Connie will be happy to assist your purchases.

Finally, it’s possible that, if we manage to cover the afternoon material efficiently enough and”¦.if you should happen to clear the table of my books for sale, I may consider ending the seminar a little early?

Enjoy your lunch.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

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138 Comments on "Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me"

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That was a work of beauty.

I can’t help but note that one person left the lecture very early in the presentation. I’ve noticed that that’s consistent with every S/P/N I’ve had. One person in hundreds catches on instantly, and absents him/herself immediately. How I long to become that one person! They are the lucky, perceptive few!

Same church, different pew.

Like Elzabeth, I noticed that one person left the lecture early (obviously had both good boundaries AND survival instincts).


“you’re asking to see a side of me I’d prefer not to reveal.”

Navy Seal class of? Working part time for CIA/NSA?

Steve, I tried to count the “I”‘s….lost track…

Thanks….a classic…think this was my Psych 101 prof in 1968…or the Indian Philosophy one…you couldn’t “argue” with him unless you knew Sanskrit….LOL…they wrote the required expensive “textbooks.”

Elizabeth Conley…I didn’t notice that…thanks…I’ll read it again….repeat the lesson.

Matt & Jim,

I’d give a lot to be that “one person”. Wouldn’t you? Maybe we’ll get there someday. If I get a 2nd shot I’m going to talk to the “one person” I recall from past situations about what they were thinking when they got the heck outta dodge. I want whatever they’ve got!


I love your articles. This sounds like many conversations I had with the X/N/S, particularly after some time.


Thanks for the Navy SEAL and NSA reference, as you know that was the story of my life with him. MANY stories of killing and martyrdom.

Two things that struck me as I was reading this are:

1. the difference with the XS in my life was that he was so completely passive and good at the lying that he seemed humble, although he was not. He would not attack people verbally but after a meeting, party, gathering he would do a lot of whispering and judging and talk about all of their inappropriateness. He wanted to seem so superior I think that he talked like he WAS…..it was almost like he wanted to appear appropriate but he had a difficult time keepin gup that appearance, hence his new white trash firends, who are x cons and his desire to be a bouncer in a biker bar. My circle of frineds wre so far from that realm of being.

2. THe other reaction of his was thet he always walked away from a disagreement as injured and later did the devaluing, usually by phone or text, (but not always). His preference was to run and call names and injure from a distance.

In essence, I’m thinking he was a cowardly N/S who had a hard time hiding his inappropriateness after a period of time. ANd that he disguised his aggressiveness with passive statements always judging others and was seemingly more appropriate. i bought into that. He was simply a better liar and a nicer N/S because he didn’t always embarrass me publicly….until later, when he needed both hands to protect himself and couldn’t hold up the mask any longer. Make sense?

Could he have been very aware of his inappropriateness and had to RUN constantly to either hide it or to disguise it as my issue……and a question:

In his new circle of friends…..if he is with people who don’t view his abuse and running away and judging and cheating as inappropriate, is that a better fit? Does he survive in that kind of setting with those kind of people who approve of fist fighting with relatives and strangers? WHo approve of jail time? Who accept his steroid addiction? Maybe his behavior isn’t bad with them or maybe no one views it as bad? Maybe that’s why he was married for 26 years? Maybe he doesn’t need to cheat on people who are so accepting of his behavior because it’s better than the abuse they have been used to? Maybe he is the king of their village and when he speaks people listen and don’t disagree and he can flourish there?

Could it be that simple?

Steve – Every single shining trait was nailed! And now, after LF, I am able to pick up on these traits in people and steer clear. OR for the more subtle ones, once the red flag waves, I STOP and CHANGE DIRECTION!.

Elizabeth – Perhaps “the one” that got up and left was a “been there and done that before” person — knew the warning signs, learned the lessons…Or perhaps “the one” that got up and left had a strong, had (was given) a solid sense of self respect, self worth and self trust (something I sadly admit I must have lacked).

But all of us today are becoming like “that one”… and for us its a case of better late than never getting up and leaving. We did it! As far as any future encounters out there (as there will be some with these types of people) our next encounter we can and hopefully will choose to be “the one” who gets it, gets up and leaves because we have learned self RESPECT, self WORTH and self TRUST.

We get to choose our inner circle. We get to choose who we want in our life. We dont get to choose our professors, co-workers, etc…….but we can choose to limit interaction with them or get up and leave if they are disrespectful, etc.

Knowledge TRULY = POWER!

Keeping Faith

“Does he survive in that kind of setting with those kind of people who approve of fist fighting with relatives and strangers? … Who accept his steroid addiction? … Maybe that’s why he was married for 26 years? ”

Here’s a theory:

His behavior went downhill after his steriod addiction, which caused fist fighting with relatives and strangers. His marriage of 26 years crumbled under the stress of the effects of steroid addiction.

Maybe the theory is valid, maybe it isn’t. You’re better able to judge. There’s a reason why they’re called steroids, instead of vitamins! It’s called ‘roid rage, and it’s dangerous.


Mine did a lot of what your’s did — run people down behind their backs. He was sort of a pathetic, living version of the painting “Divine Judgment”. Only instead of deciding who got into heaven and who get sent to hell (actually, I did when I got involved with him), he did his devaluing from a distance — except for me whom he ran down face-to-face.

Of course, most of my friends and family had his number pretty quick. Which I guess explains why, after he met them the first time, he would make excuses why he couldn’t meet them a second time. He would talk a good game about being admitted to every Ivy etc, but it was all a lie and when he was around me, my friends or family, all of whom had attended the Ivies, the little 3, the 7 sisters, et al, it was clear he was in way over his head — intellectually, socially, financially, etc.


I was thinking of those stock excuses nobody believes, and thought we could add one to your ex-S’s list:

1. The dog ate my homework.
2. The check is in the mail.
3. The terrorists shrank my testicles.



Well Elizabeth, I sense that his behavior has been bad for a long time, and I’m not sure how long the steroid abuse was going on. By the time I said goodbye, he had liver and kidney problems (small testicles that WERE NOT from being tortured as a Navy SEAL) and he had a heart attack last year.

The only history I have is a previous affair five years ago and I spoke to the woman as she confirmed all the same lies, running away, abuse. His daughters are both a bit “disturbed” in terms of behavior. he said one is bi-polar and the other he describes as “she doesn’t have a social filter.” Quite honestly I think she is socially inappropriate and may be a S also.

As I think now about the abusive names and lies and cheating…… it can’t be possible thet all of this is derived from steroids right? I do think the steroids added to it. I think he can portray himself to be anyone he wants…… he’s just smart and deviant enough. i think he is just now with a group that thinks he has money (compared to them) and they are in awe of the fact that he would be their friend. Because of that, they agree with him and he used to always say “When people disagree with me I can’t take it. It’s like I want to kill someone.”

Matt, LTL,

Thanks and Matt you are HYSTERICAL. Can we add to the list 4. My wife got herpes from her sister’s towel?

LTL, I do agree with you. I guess I answered my own questions in a way and a little bit of self doubt keeps slipping into my constant over analysis of the whole thing.

I do think his wife is disordered and realizes he is a pathalogical liar at a minimum and I don’t think she has a clue as to the amount and kind of lies he has told. I think his life and friends are the result of choices he has made and will continue to make and I had nothing to do with how he behaved, who he was or who he becomes.

He lied about so many things and such a variety of things it could not have started with steroids. His x affair’s X husband was a fighter pilot. He used to tell me he HATED pilots. (now I know why). My x husband has a PhD. He tried to convince me he was accepted to med school. He didn’t go to college. It was a BIG PISSING CONTEST for him and with his new circle of criminal and dysfunctional friends, he is simmply THE BIGG PISSER !!!! LOL


“He tried to convince me he was accepted to med school. He didn’t go to college. It was a BIG PISSING CONTEST for him and with his new circle of criminal and dysfunctional friends…”

No doubt because he has shrunken testicles.


Keeping Faith,

That 26 year marriage is the puzzle piece that just doesn’t quite fit.

No doubt about it though, he’s dangerous.

Elizabeth Conley:

My ex-S had two 8 year relationships. Based on what I saw, these guys hung in there until they couldn’t take it anymore. From what I’ve seen, they seem to have started creating separate lives for themselves during the course of their relationship and hung in there until they couldn’t deny what was in front of them anymore.

I suspect that with keep-faith’s ex-S’s ex-wife (that’s a mouth-full) she probably hung onto the paycheck until even she decided it just wasn’t worth it. He may have divorced her, but I will bet she deliberately (although probably her subconscious survival instinct kicking in) did something to force him to divorce her.


I suspect you are right. I think she is still in a bit of denial. I think she is so embarrassed by his behavior she can’t even take listening to it anymore. She was not self supporting and he seems to cling to people who are dependent financially, even his adult daughters who rely on him financially. I was not like that. Plus I questioned all the bizarre stuff he said and did. He’s lucky it lasted almost two years. he insisted that the x wife wanted him back. But he is probably insisting the same about me because how dare anyone reject such a loyal, American hero with tiny testicles.

I think I also told you that the girlfriend is 18 yrs younger on welfare with three illegitimate kids and has cancer……. I think he likes that too. Vulnerability and dependency make for good prey.

Elizabeth, I think he has potential to have the same “longer term” with the new girlfriend. She will also be dependent on him and I don’t believe she questions his bizarre behavior based on the fact that she called and texted me on his behalf. She doesn’t have a clue that he was with me when he wasn’t responding to her. And based on the fact that her male siblings were all incarcerated and that she used to be a stripper….. he looks like a gold mine to her. key word “LOOKS”


“Vulnerability and dependency make for good prey.”

And they also won’t ask him why he’s got tiny testicles.

OMG Matt !!! I didn’t ask. Then when he cried, sobbing as he told me he had electrodes hooked to them as he was being tortured right before the CIA came and rescued him…….. i didn’t dare bring it up again and cause such traumatic feelings and memories. You know he killed his captor during that event….yada yada yada…..

Dear Lord, the emotions and pity and empathy they stirred up in us simply for their own amusement.

Who’s laughing now Matt? WE ARE!!!


You now, if you took up my suggestion about slipping his photo into the display case at your gym, I would put, at the top of the posterboard:


WOW!!! Great “Play” and soooooo RIGHT ON!! Almost sounds like my P-sperm donor being interviewed for some of the national monthly magazines he was interviewed for! Or the transcripts of some of his lectures on his area of expertise. ROTFLMAO He never was able to keep his stories straight—even his age….sometimes he bragged about dropping out of school at age 12 (it was actually 11) and other times he bragged about the colleges he had gone to (none) and his military service records (not distinguished at all, made corporal finally, but got busted from that for bad behavior and I am not sure if he got an honorable discharge) LOL

Comparing the bushel baskets full of clippings I have about him from various magazines, newspapers, books about him, his autobiography (1200 pages, self published) and his vanity biiography (paid a guy to write it) and his internet diatribes on his expertise in almost every field of science, including aviation and medicine, it becomes laughable.

The only people who ever “idolized him” were his dupes, victims and those he paid to do so. After his major financial success, he had the money to buy a “better class of worshipers” by donating millions of dollars to a university for various projects—when I worked at the college, I saw just how the university president and others would absolutely TOADY to big donors and I can only imagine how that gave NS to my sperm donor to have the president of the university he donated millions of dollars to toady to him. LOL I also remember how the university people talked about these big donors who were narcissistic behind their backs, and how they groveled to their faces. I can only assume the conversations that must have gone on when they were talking about my P-sperm donor behind his back.

He never saw or believed anything except what they said to his face to get his millions of dollars though, that they “worshiped and respected him.” In fact, they were simply institutionalized whores who would “bend over” and “do whatever” for the “greater good” of their institution from the money they received for “servicing his needs.” So, I guess in the end, some good came out of it. Typical of him though to think that a “whore” actually “loved and respected” him! ROTFLMAO

At least now I can see this situation for what it was, without the emotional baggage from my relationship with him, and laugh at his own “being swindled” and his own accceptence of what he thought was “worship” when it was simply motivated greed. IN the end, he got what he wanted, “respect”—he thought—but just like him, it was all COUNTERFIT.


The emotions and pity and empathy that asswipe stirred up in me and the energy I expended trying to help him get his life back on track. I have earned every laugh I’ve had at his expense twenty-fold.

PLEASE…..I have been fantasizing about that since I read what you posted. I am NOT kidding. Is that justice or vengence? does it matter? LOL……

I was lying in bed last night thinking about your one comment about your X. the “diamond Lil” comment just sticks with me and I laugh out loud everytime I think of it. So I was telling my firend that I told you about (who also happens to be a gay man) and he was hysterical. I love your sense of humor Matt!

Oxy said:

“In fact, they were simply institutionalized whores who would “bend over” and “do whatever” for the “greater good” of their institution from the money they received for “servicing his needs.” So, I guess in the end, some good came out of it. Typical of him though to think that a “whore” actually “loved and respected” him! ROTFLMAO”

WOW….that statement can apply to anyone of us !!! It certainly applies to my situation. Oxy, didn’t we already establish that white trash comes form all socioeconomic and educational backgrounds?

Institutions, trailer parks???? no difference.

Matt & Elizabeth

“That 26 year marriage is the puzzle piece that just doesn’t quite fit.”

Well, I would have to justify a nearly 25 year marriage…or not I guess. First of all…kids to think about. And mine, I think, was BPD, so for a time I was “idealized”. Heck, I wasn’t perfect, so I might be “hard to live with”, too.

When the devalue phase started in earnest, I thought I could last another 8 or 10 years. What tripped the trigger was the realization that, whether it was sexually consummated or not, she was, at least “emotionally”, cheating. I caught her in a lie, and she was defiant, refusing to discuss it, saying she was “sorry she lied.” Actually, just sorry she got caught. I saw changes in routines, looked at other recent events, and knew she wasn’t sorry enough to stop meeting a married co-worker on the sly.

Based on recent experience, I knew that a year from then history would be rewritten, so I decided evidence would be good to have, so I followed them to a local park, where they went on the way home from work, and took photos of them together in his truck….they weren’t happy.

I was followed back home by both of them…and threatened.
Well, after I got rid of him, I was subjected to much wailing and gnashing of teeth…her…”What was I thinking?….How could I be so stupid?….I’ll never talk to him outside of work”..
I said, nope, this is it…I have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow….she ended up beating me to the filing…saved me $150 filing fee…and legally, she “divorced” me.

Caught lying and denying. She knew that I “knew”. And she didn’t care. Betrayal, trust broken…and I found out the smear campaign had already begun some time ago…so, time to let it go. I was pretty well spent mentally and physically anyway…..

Well, twenty-five year marriage down the drain. 18 months of more “crazytime.” But I’ve got good kids. I’m finding myself again, liking myself better. The “truth” is finally being realized by a lot of people who believed the “smears”.

And life goes on…I’m OK, and getting better, and enjoy the peace…and my family…without her operating the roller coaster.

It could have been worse. I knew her 1-1/2 years before we married, married 2 weeks short of 25 years…it happens. Lovefraud helped me a lot to understand it. Thanks Donna and all!


The XS used to always say to me “whenI catch you changing your routine I will know something is up.” Gee why is that?

I caught him over and over again and I think his x’s did not look deeply enough. So it can go on for sometime when you don’t really KNOW the truth. The idealization gets us all. It got me too.

Jim, I can’t recall, are your kids with you?

keeping_faith: Kids…well, all but the 13 year old are on their own and doing well. The parenting time agreement on her is very specific…but of course, the ex-tox ignores it.

My 13 year old daughter…we have joint legal/she has primary physical…I either see or talk to my daughter every day…except for Mom weekends…she “farms” my daughter out with my daughter’s friends’ families a lot then.

Oh, and 13 year olds know how to manipulate, too. But she sometimes does it out of frustration with her mother…I get the “I want to live with you” every few months…but she still is attached and has mixed anger/sympathy for her mother.

So we take it day by day…she’s a good daughter, has a good heart…she’ll make it.

A “years long marriage” doesn’t support any real indication of a “stable” or a “good” marriage, I know some marriages of 50+ years that were HORRIBLE. In fact my egg donor’s best friend was married to a horrible Narcissistic creep and emotional abuser (I’m not sure he would qualify as a P, but he was hard core) for 50 years and she finally left him for good. He hid assets, smeared her to the kids, etc etc.

His first name was Vernon, and his BIL used to call him VERMIN and it fit so welll! I know other couples that were separated or divorced at nearly the 50 year mark and it was a 50 years of hell relationship, not indicative of anything good in the personality disordered spouse. It only indicated that the women would put up with it “to keep the family together” which was expected in that generation of women in the middle class or lower classes.

The women spent tremendous amounts of energy trying to keep up the illusion that they were a “nice normal family” and hiding the TRUTH from everyone. My own family spent a huge amount of energy trying to hide the secrets of Uncle Monster, and doing a fair job of it until he moved back into our community here and was visibly drunken and abusive of his next to the last “live in GF” who when he would beat her up would go to my aunt’s house and “tell all” and stay a few days then go back. She finally broke away from that and got a place of her own. His last live in GF was a woman looking for a meal ticket and as soon as she spotted another one (85 tear old man who was recently widowed) she moved in on that, married him and got the estate from the heirs when he died a year later.

A “long, apparently stable” marriage may be only a charade.

Well obviously your good influence has made a difference. All teenagers know how to play the divorce game. So it’s not just yours believe me.

The worse thing that my x husband did (and he is not the S by the way) is that he bought a house around the corner, not for convenience with the kids but because his girlfriend was angry that she didn’t get MY house. So he bought one in my subdivision. THe kids spent less time with him because he was so close and never sleep over. The threat of my son moving back and forth everytime he got mad at one of us was always there and way too easy for him to do because of close proximity. I think it (the ease of jumping from house to house) hurt my son a little because he still does not seem grounded and struggles with the divorce three years later. We were married for 22 yrs.

For Steve: Oh….my….GAWD, this article is fantastic. Just the amount of creativity alone that went into it is amazing. It’s written like a great novel and I thoroughly enjoyed the read. I absolutely LOVED IT!!!!

Regarding the using the length of marriage as a standard, my divorce lawyer told me that you divorces generally occur on a timetable.

1. 9 months to 1 year — that’s where the freight train took you right down the aisle and you couldn’t call it off.

2. 7-10 years — that’s the 7 year itch.

3. 18-25 years — that’s waiting for the youngest kid to graduate from high school.

4. 35-40 years — Wife goes back to work and sees there is a bigger world out there. If she has stayed at home, hubby retires and drives her insane and she calls i quits.

5. 50+ years — the couple realize their marriage has never worked and they want to live in peace what time they have on earth.

And then there are the exceptions to the rule, as the following makes clear:

An elderly couple appears before the judge.

Judge: How long have you been married?

Couple: 75 years, your honor.

Judge: 75 years is a long time. How long has your marriage been in trouble?

Couple: Almost since day one, your honor.

Judge: If that’s the case, why did you wait so long to get divorced?

Couple: Oh, we were waiting for the children to die.

I of course, bought this hook, line and sinker. That’s when my lawyer clued me in that it was a joke. I laughed my ass off.

Matt, You are quite funny today. I say that yet much of what you said is true above….. I just coudn’t wait for the last one to graduate!!


“whenI catch you changing your routine I will know something is up.”

Which I guess explains why, when I met a friend for a drink (and I was honest about what I was doing) he would start bombarding me with text messages and phone calls.

Believe it or not, I never connected his need to control me with the fact that he was pulling the above-referenced stunt. What a dolt I am.

Of course, they are projecting onto us exactly what they’re doing.

Me too Matt. I did change my routine at one point. I started turning my cell off when he was around and he knew it. Certainly not because I was cheating, but whether it was a friend or my kids calling (and I often checked my phone to see if the kids needed me)….I was accused of cheating and talking to other men. I was told that it was inappropriate to answer my phone when I was with him.

I changed my routine to stop the accusiations and the drama but there was no winning!


The weekend before I broke it off, I was going so bonkers that I flew down South to visit a friend. Of course, I started getting bombarded with text messages. For the first time I didn’t respond.

The next weekend we had our “come to Jesus” talk. What was one of the things he threw in my face? The fact I didn’t respond. I told him that I had forgotten my charger. He proceeded to tell me exactly what stores in my friend’s town carried chargers and that I could have gone out and bought one. UNBELIEVABLE.

Matt, Isn’t it funny when the tables are turned. When we use their excuses……it’s simply appauling. You were right….same church different pew

A new friend said something interesting to me yesterday. He said “You view it as that he was appearing so protective of you in the beginning of your relationship. I view it as he was like a child molester going after the kid with her head down.”

You don’t know when you are the victim and I think we all need protection at some point in our lives. I thought how interesting from someone who didn’t know the whole story. Who saw it so clearly.


“Of course, they are projecting onto us exactly what they’re doing.”

Yup…I found out after the divorce was filed that my ex-tox was telling my oldest daughter (not the ex’s) and her husband that she thought I might be having an affair with an ex-coworker…about 3 months before I caught her having one with a coworker…projection.

keeping_faith…my therapist recommended an old early 80’s book…”Games Divorced People Play” by Dr. Melvyn A. Berke and Joanne B. Grant…found it on Amazon for $4.00. Not necessarily for disordered relationships, but some problems are universal…

Page 113: “Grant/Berke’s Theory of After Divorce Relationships is C=H2(squared), or the greater the contact the higher the probability for hassle.”

Sound familiar?

keeping_faith: Funny thing, how their excuses don’t sound all that plausible when they’re being used on them, huh?

Hey Jim, Makes perfect sense to me!!

Just come from a professional conference? 🙂

Oh boy- here’s a related experience I went to a CHILDREN”S bookfair and had to endure an arrogant author tell a parent not to film (her kids at event) because he was speaking…
his highness writes about pigeons….his behavior was pathetic and so self-absorbed…
Vey amusing and not far from reality at all…

the number of college profs who did thesame, crack me up …as if there’s a blackmarket for their erudite comments

“I’ve noticed that that’s consistent with every S/P/N I’ve had. One person in hundreds catches on instantly, and absents him/herself immediately.”

Ironically I’ve always had a pretty good eye for them. I once worked with a woman who didn’t give me messages from the boss because she was jealous of my rapport with the boss and sometimes made up stories about me. I could tell she was a little off when we met, so I kept an eye on her and saw all the signs. Luckily she wasn’t very smart so she wasn’t able to develop any higher level manipulation, but I got a new job ASAP.

I met another in a church youth group. All the girls were crazy over one handsome, charismatic guy (who discreetly plowed through all of them while proclaiming chastity for Christ’s sake), but one was determined to get him. She was very average in looks, intelligence and personality but he talked to her about his sex addiction and she magically confessed to one as well. They jumped into bed and she stole his lines by telling him she just wanted to be brother and sister in Christ. His geeky roommate was in love with her and after turning him down she “changed her mind” and got engaged to him. The second conversation I had with her while on a hike I saw her stone cold eyes and although we were going camping I didn’t want to be in a tent with her and got my ass out.

The third I saw was a customer I saw when I worked at a bakery. His eyes were so dead I at first thought he was blind. His eyesight was plainly fine, but I was astonished to see people talking to him without freaking over his eyes. I couldn’t look away, and finally he looked me in the eyes and gave me a calm, knowing and sinister smile. The worst moment is when they know you know and give you that smile.

The P that brought me here wasn’t immediately obvious because he was grooming me as a potential sex partner and was thus more careful than the others who weren’t trying to impress me. Also, he was a foreigner so I attributed the oddness of his speech to my being unused to his accent rather than him not having feelings. In any case my intuition served me well before and I’m never letting one more of those freaks in my life.


Some of them can HIDE “THE LOOK” very well unless they are frustrated or angry! That is when the “mask slips” and they let it through–then it is like looking into the eyes of “Satan himself.” SPOOKY, CREEPY and almost a VIOLATED FEELING.

There’s always something animalistic about them. The woman in the shop where I worked once saw a handsome man walk in and started trembling like a hungry alleycat. The girl in the youth group was slow and emotionless like Jaws. The P I lived with was mostly careful around me but every now and then he looked at me like like a tiger stalking a gazelle.

He got more and more frustrated with my continued refusals and I think he didn’t rape me outright only because he didn’t want to go to prison and he was hoping to turn me into one of his puppets. I can’t really fault his ex-gf for harassing me since she’s been up to her eyebrows in his shit for 6 years. No surprise that she’s an alcoholic since 6 months in his orbit would drive me to drink.

Me, me, me, me, me, that’s who it’s going to be about from now on!

I have a general question for everyone.
I noticed that my S didn’t read books. He read news articles in the paper or online, but never seemed to have any interest in fiction.

Does this sound familiar to any of you?
I just wondered if it was a trait that had some sort of meaning.

Too, too true!! Made me laugh and laugh.

I just had a memory of something that occurred at the very end with S.

I had a case of what, they call in the philanthropy business, “donor fatigue.” I was absolutely exhausted from giving and giving and giving to S — financially, emotionally, everything.

At some level I knew I had to start taking care of myself. I remember telling him that I (emphasis on I) planned to go visit my friend down South. I was considering buying a restored 1986 Corvette. I had just booked a first-class ticket for myself for Greece next year.

You get the picture — I was turning the tables on him.

The night I broke it off, he brought up the “I” conversation framed in the context of “I am doing X. I am doing Y. I am doing Z. I hear a lot of I and no We.” I remember thinking at the time that he was right and boy was I long overdue.

When they realize it’s no longer about “Me” (themselves) but about “you” all hell breaks lose because you’ve changed the dynamic and they realize that you’re cutting the supply off.

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