By | March 11, 2009 108 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Do not expect the truth in an oral trial

Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader who write as “Jofary” relates her experience with a sociopath in Canadian divorce court.

I first participated on this site three years ago when I learned that my daughter, then only a toddler, was being sexually molested by her father (my ex). Up until that point, I was dealing with things in the typical way. I had caught my ex cheating on me and, when our son was only three months old, he immediately moved in with his mistress, who herself had extricated herself from her fifteen year stable marriage, believing my ex to be her “best friend and soul mate.” That was extremely distasteful in and of itself but, given my ex’s contributions (or lack thereof) emotionally, physically, and financially to our brief marriage, I was able to disengage from him within a month of his departure. Unfortunately, he became aware that I was not going to be his “back-up” plan after he was done having his fun with this woman, and became extremely vindictive towards me. Perhaps it was my demeanour towards him — he was completely irrelevant to me and I treated him as such by refusing to answer his phone calls or greet him personally at the door during the exchange of our children. In any case, it propelled me on a path to utter chaos and unsettlement.

My ex refused to negotiate on the sale of our house, all the while refusing to share payments on the mortgage or massive family debt (while I was on maternity leave, no less), claiming “it benefited him to keep his name on the deed as long as possible” and eventually confessing that he “didn’t care how much it cost to go to court, he just wanted me out of the house.” He didn’t want much access with his children and sporadically paid child support. The house was my only source of income (rental) and stability for the children and I attempted to buy him out immediately, at the time he left, and when I could afford it. When it became apparent what he was demanding far outweighed what he was legally entitled to be paid by me, and he absolutely refused to negotiate, I reluctantly agreed to sell the house and decided to take the case to court to have it settled.

Moving away

Then, the realization that he was molesting our daughter, coupled with the fact that I no longer had secure housing in one of the most expensive places to live in North America, made me realize I had no choice but to relocate. I applied to a school 300 km outside the area and was immediately slammed with a do-not-remove order by him and a demand to have the children live with him full-time. I can only conclude that being court-ordered to pay child support was weighing heavily on his mind. He was, at heart, a parasite and given that nature, it probably seemed unnatural to be giving money when he felt he should be getting it! I was successful in fighting this because my situation was precarious at best and certainly not in the best interests of the children, and I went on to school in a diploma program that complements the degree I already have in the hope that I would be financially independent in the near future.

Going to court

Near the end of my diploma program, our court dispute over division of assets came due. On the advice of my lawyer, this was an oral process (as opposed to affidavit) so, since I was the plaintiff, I was the first to sit in the witness box and make my statements. It was painfully difficult for me but I did my best, and had prepared thoroughly beforehand. He followed, with his own statements and I was stunned, floored, by the entire debacle, realizing I had seriously underestimated his ability to deceive. I was expecting some lies, but not the outrageous dishonesty he displayed. He was a flamboyant liar — claiming he was responsible for twice as many family debts as I was, that I had refused to cooperate with medical, daycare, and extracurricular costs for the children even though the exact opposite had occurred (much to my frustration and financially difficulty) — complete with an air of sincerity, tears, and victim mentality. I, on the other hand, came across as frustrated, defensive and probably vindictive (the “scorned woman” syndrome) — as I well should have been considering how financially devastated I had become as a result of his parasitic behaviour since separation. I had no defence for his accusations because “my time” in the witness box was over and I realized I was doomed.

In the end, he “won” the case and the assets were split equally, despite the fact that he had not shared a dime in the mortgage costs, repairs to the house, or insurance costs, and had driven a vehicle I was paying for over the last three years, simply because the credit was in MY name, which he didn’t have to reimburse me for. All because the entire oral debate relied mainly on the spoken word, with no opportunity for dispute based on written proofs.

Credibility of witnesses

In retrospect, it would have been much wiser for me to have demanded the trial be done by affidavits, not orally. Then I could have presented the truths coherently and plainly, through the plethora of e-mails I received from him refusing to share costs and acknowledgment he was walking away with no debts. As it were, the judge made his judgment based on the credibility of the witnesses. It was stunning and difficult to accept that even though I told the truth, apparently my ex presented himself to be a much more credible witness than I.

The important lesson that I learned, and which I wish to share with other Lovefraud readers in a similar position is this: Do NOT expect the truth will come out in court during an oral trial. If your ex has been able to bamboozle you successfully enough to establish a relationship, and has a history of deception, then the chances are very good he or she will be able to appeal to judge in the same way. Practice makes perfect, as they say. Written affidavits are far better evidence when dealing with this type of individual, and the more evidence, the better.

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Dear Jofary, Thank you thank you thank you. I have been working towards my day in court for 14 months, and may eventually have to represent myself. This advice is very valuable, and you are correct. My exes display of fake sincerity is breathtaking and VERY convincing. I would likely not stand a chance in a verbal exchange.

Welcome to Lovefraud. I hope you are through the worst of it and creating a new healthy life for yourself and your children. I am so sorry for the devastation you had to go through, especially in regards to your kids.

I am wondering when you realized what you were dealing with, and if it helped to know that your ex is likely a P/S/or N.?

Thanks again for speaking out and educating on this important issue.


I just read an article on “how to” interrogate a psychopath- I am sorry you learned this lesson.

I posted it here:

Jim in Indiana USA

Jofary…thanks for the story of how things go in the “justice system”. I avoided the “court appearance” before the judge. All the true “issues”…the d&d, the discard, the betrayal…the married “boyfriend” my daughter was exposed to…my attorney advised were not issues the court would address. I asked “When did legality get separated from morality?”

So, to reduce conflict, the negotiations were not direct. My lawyer negotiated with her lawyer…and an agreement was hammered out, and an “agreed entry” was submitted and approved by the judge. The judge never saw me, but did see my ex-tox once when her lawyer tried to hold a preliminary hearing without us knowing (he apparently had connections in the clerk/court staff who “sandbagged” the summonses and mailed them too late-something I may pursue in the future).

I gave up some money at issue for the ability to see my daughter nearly every day. I pay the agreed support on time every time so far.

My ex-tox…she tries to circumvent, dismiss, forget, violate, and ignore the agreement she signed and the judge ordered. She has broken state statutes requiring notifications of change in residence and employment location. She refuses to honor the parenting time schedule as laid out. She has no concern for inconveniencing me.

But, I deal with it. Due to her lack of concern, I usually net more time with my daughter. My life is not chaotic, so I can adjust.

The payoff comes in the future, and I’m already enjoying some rewards with all my children, including the adult ones.

At least I didn’t have to listen to her lies in court….of course she was the victim.

(Jofary…your toddler and the molestation…was there ever any legal activity on that?)

Ox Drover

Dear Jofary,

Thanks for sharing, and I can’t even imagine how you must have been stunned by the “IN-justice” system.

Your advice is sound and “get it iin writing” is ALWAYS good advice with the Ps–it makes it so much easier to prove they are LYING if they put it in writing.

Jim, glad you are doing well—it makes me shake my head in wonder everytime I read one of these articles—reminds me how gullible other people are (not just US!)



I admire you for managing to keep a roof over your children’s heads and still grapple with the debt — to say nothing of protecting your daugheter against sexual abuse –all while you were in school.

Many of us feel like we were weak for letting the sociopath get away with for as long as we did. It took me awhile before I realized that a friend was speaking the truth when told me “You’re an incredibly strong man. I would have buckled by now from what S has put you through.”

I won’t try to second guess what your lawyer’s strategy was for not having you supply documentary evidence. However, at the end of the day, the best evidence is always documentary evidence.

We we all want to be heard by the S. We all want our day in court. We are looking for justice and vindication. As you discovered, when it comes to a sociopath, we’re never going to get it because they lie and lie and lie.

The truth of the matter is you can’t argue with what’s in black-and-white, and preferrably notarized.

For what it’s worth, you probably wouldn’t have come out much differently on the asset split. The courts would probably say “You had to pay for a place to live. Whether you paid rent to a landlord or a mortgage payment to a bank, doesn’t matter.” And the other big problem, as you are well aware, is that it doesn’t matter how you agree to apportion the debt — if the sociopath doesn’t pay, you are on the hook.

Again, you are an incredibly strong woman and I hope you can continue to keep your kids away from this monster.


Jofary: Thank you for the very good advice, which could also come in handy in some other type of court situation! His performance in court sounds disgusting, not to mention everything else he did.

Elizabeth Conley

Dear Jofary,

I’m so sorry you went through this.

The S/P/Ns in our lives have proven extremely good at fooling most of the people most of the time. When it comes to the arena of group dynamics, they are absolutely able to sway a mob in any direction they please.

It stands to reason they can lead a judge around by the nose with verbal testimony. Even the dumbest S/P/N is more convincing verbally than the brightest normal. Don’t ask me why. It’s one of those mysteries of the universe.

Any time it’s us against them, our challenge is to get people to examine the FACTS, irrespective of the dramatic performance of the S/P/N. Documents are our allies, and ultimately education is the deciding factor. If the person weighing the evidence doesn’t know what an S/P/N is well enough to recognize the symptoms in black and white, we’re still SOL.

Sometimes people ask me about the professional qualifications of two cluster Bs I know. I always say, “He’s reliable in his work habits and technically capable. Do a background check before you hire him to work within your ministry. If he passes the background check, hire him.” Tragically, they NEVER perform the background check. Both men pass personal interviews with exceptional ease. Those background checks are never performed. What those background checks would have revealed is a real eye opener.

Both men’s disorders are laid out in black and white in their background checks. They’re just over 50. Their background checks could be used as textbook samples of typical life histories of cluster Bs. The trouble is, after people have gotten a dose of these men’s persuasive capabilities, they are pretty much mesmerized.

Any time we’re dealing with cluster Bs, we need to stick to documented facts. In court, in employment, in contracts, in any conceivable situation where reality matters, the glamor of the S/P/N must be countered with proven facts, education and reason.

Elizabeth Conley


The privacy of the victim is important in cases of child molestation. We are not entitled to details of what your child experienced.

I am interested in knowing the nature of the evidence you were able to present in this regard. Did you have any documentation of physical evidence? Were their professional opinions of your child’s degree of trauma? Was there any documented evidence your ex was interested in child pornography?

Jim in Indiana USA

Elizabeth Conley…I’d kind of asked the same question…any legal trail? Details…you’re right.

That’s my concern…what my daughter is exposed to. My lawyer said, re the boyfriend “Unless he’s a convicted child molester, there’s nothing you can do.”

Well, I checked for a criminal record, found the handgun permit…documented the fact he was actually married to his wife…

Now we have his son, 23, turn up…”spending time” with my 13 year old daughter…just out of “rehab” for drugs and alcohol…with a 2 yr old son. His ex-girlfriend flaunts her “bi” personna on Myspace…chaos to the max!

I warned my daughter…if they leave you alone in the house with him…call me immediately…she already has an intuitive dislike for him.

The legal system…justice…blind in more ways than one!

Elizabeth Conley


Thank God your daughter is 13. I’m glad the lass has some common sense. I think your daughter should tell Mom she doesn’t want to be alone with the boyfriend’s son. That’s the sane thing to do, at least it would be with a psychologically well mother.

The idea that perversion and crime are simple “lifestyle choices” as valid as any other is carrying judicial impartiality to a ridiculous extreme.

Jim in Indiana USA

Elibabeth Conley…

“I think your daughter should tell Mom she doesn’t want to be alone with the boyfriend’s son. That’s the sane thing to do, at least it would be with a psychologically well mother.”

Yeah, well, like you said…it’s complicated. Short take…there are two houses, or three. Mom’s (ex-tox) house. His wife’s house (he filed divorce over a year ago…not completed yet…no minor children.) His house…he “bought” a house about 8 months ago…mom and my daughter were going to “move in” last August, but his “rehab” son moved in there til he “gets on his feet”…Anyway, my daughter was “left alone” with rehab boy once at his house…for about an hour….when I found out, I told my daughter…if that ever happens again, call me!

Then again, a few months ago, on a school night, my ex-tox wanted to leave my daughter alone for the night, the whole night…while ex-tox spent the night at his house. My daughter kicked up a fuss and that didn’t happen. Once again, I said…call me!

My ex-tox tries to force her “new family”…married to someone else boyfriend, his two adult sons, grandson…on my two adult daughters…planning “outings”, barbeques, holidays…I get feedback that isn’t going too well…LOL

So “sane” and “psycholologically well mother” may not apply here.

Two weeks after ex-tox moved out from our home during the divorce (3 years ago), he began to show up at mom’s new place, within a month or two spending the night there. My daughter (10 at the time) got lies or “you’re too young to understand” in answer to her questions about him.

I’ve made one promise to my daughter: “You will never come to my house and find a woman here you haven’t met before. When you are here, no woman will visit and “know her way around my house” unless you’ve met her before.”
(My daughter’s not stupid!)

So far, I’ve kept that promise.


Jim – If it werent for my father, I dont know where I would be today. He stood up to the plate, got custody (our situation was extreme with my mothers illness) and provided us with safety, security, direction and a sense of balance. Somewhere along the way I didnt (get,grasp, have) enough self respect/worth/trust… but I always always knew I had my father to turn to and that he loved me unconditionally. Your daughters not stupid is right!! You are teaching, giving, caring and sharing self respect, self worth and self trust with her. Thats what its all about in my book!!

Elizabeth Conley


“tries to force her “new family—married to someone else boyfriend, his two adult sons, grandson”on my two adult daughters”planning “outings”, barbeques, holidays””

We have a widow in our family who tried to pull that one with us. Her new boyfriend was a convict and a child molester, his kids were alcoholics, con artists and convicts – yes, all of them except a minor child he conceived at the age of 55 with a 13 year old child!

This widowed family member is dear to us, but her desperation to find companionship scares us to death. We saw through the boyfriend immediately, and have been dodging her “new family” fantasies for years. Several of us have federal jobs and security clearances. Involvement with her fantasy family could destroy us.

Elizabeth Conley

P.S. – She’s run through her dead husband’s life insurance and savings. She’s gotten a 2nd mortgage. Money is getting tight and the boyfriend and his kids are starting to make themselves scare.

Good riddance!


Elizabeth Conley:

“Several of us have federal jobs and security clearances. Involvement with her fantasy family could destroy us.”

I was approached about a federal appointment about 3 months into my relationship with S. I remember a friend of mine said to me “Let’s see. A federal judge with a federal ex-convict boyfriend. Something is wrong with this picture.”

Needless to say, I declined the appointment. Wise judgment? Absolutely. Of course, the fact that I stayed with that freak show another 10 months could lead one to believe that my judgment was questionable, at best.


Having a clearance has made me think twice about hanging out with some toxic people I’ve met. I used to have a very laissez-faire approach towards people, my general attitude was if you’re an adult what you do on your own time is none of my business. But I’ve realized that by hanging out with people who smoke pot, or have criminal records, if I don’t say anything they take it as silently condoning the behavior. My sister used to hang out with kids who shoplifted and my dad warned her she would be judged by the actions of her friends. It isn’t fair, but it’s true.

Elizabeth Conley

Midnight Reflection,

“Having a clearance has made me think twice about hanging out with some toxic people I’ve met.”

My husband retired from the Marines about 5 years ago. OK, so there are a few Psychos, but generally it was a fairly sheltered world. I was 40+ when I first lived as an adult in the civilian community. What a revelation! About 3 years ago we identified the N. My husband warned me: “Watch your acquintances. Being near people like him could wreck your reputation.” I tried to do better. About 4 months ago I quit working with the S. I was really ashamed to admit to my husband what I dumb-bunny I’d been – AGAIN!

About 22 years of adult living in the military community – 1 P. About 5 years of living in the civilian community – 1 N, 1 S and two hard to specify – probably Borderlines. Innumerable sightings in the broader community. Two encountered in church, two encountered while dealing with our family. (No, we hadn’t spent much time with family before we retired. What a shock regular contact proved to be!)

I’ve had a crash course in cluster B. Hopefully I’ve wised up. That being said, I’ve only been “cluster B free” for 4 months. Wish me luck.

Think twice?! We all should. I’ve gotten so gunshy it’s funny. I just hope it works.

The stakes are high. We all want to live in joyfully in peace. That means no cluster B. They’re human wrecking balls.

Ox Drover

Dear Midnight and Elizabeth,

“Birds of a feather flock together” is true, because people who are “alike” in their moral compass tend to hang out together. Drunks hang out with drinkers, gamblers with gamblers, cheaters with cheaters, etc.

Now that doesn’t mean you won’t meet a psychopath DISGUISED as a priest, prophet, politician, or rabbi, but generally people hang out with “their own kind.”

One example I remember that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up was a friend of mine (male) was divorced from a P and she had custody of their two kids. I had never met this woman and one day he was ALLOWED to see his kids, and I went with him and met her and her new BF.

The woman was DIRTY in her person and she had most of her teeth missing in front, and she weighed at least 300 good solid pounds, and her BF would have been an UPSCALE MODEL. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? She was absolutely UN-attractive, and here she was with a really stunning looking man, living with him even.

Well, later we found out this guy liked little girls (the daughter was 5) and guess what he was doing? YEP, you are right, full intercourse. A few months later the x-wife let the father have custody and shortly thereafter we found out the truth. Though we tried hard to persue this legally, no one would listen.

Later, he got custody of the little boy and if you would give this then-four year old some tobacco and a rolling paper he could roll a pretty good “Joint” and even smoke it the way marijuana is smoked–taking a deep inhale and holding it.

He also had an amazing vocabullary for his age. He did not know the word for “book” or colors but he had made up names for colors, yellow was banana, red was apple, and burnt orange was “cat food.” Though the dad got therapy for these kids and was a wonderful loving father, the damage to these too kids was too severe, plus who knows how much genetic influence was involved too, and they eventually went off the “deep end” into crime and drugs. I actually think this sweet little girl was either a P or a BPD later by the time she was 14 or 15. I lost touch with them and their story after that.

Sometimes just by the appearance of two people “not belonging together” you can see that there is SOMETHING ROTTEN IN DENMARK—why would a college prof hang out with a bunch of illiterate people? Why would someone with a good job hang out with a bunch of winos living on the street? Why would a nice girl hang out with a group of whores? Why would a person who never drank hang out with a bunch of drunks and go to bars?

Many times I have observed that Ps hang out with people who are not in their “social group” either financially, mentally, etc. They many times either seek to climb the ladder but don’t quite know how (like Matt described his P) or they skinny DOWN the ladder like someone else’s (I forget who–CRS) who hangs out with the biker chicks and undershirt-attire crowd.

After my P-son morphed into the “oppositionally definant” version, he dropped his smart and nice friends like a hot potato and started hangiing out with the flunk-out crowd from the lower socio-economic groups around. I think it was because it made him feel so SUPERIOR to them…their english was bad grammar, their parents drove “beaters” or they lived in the slums etc. We weren’t “rich” or drove fancy cars, but they were fairly new, clean and neat and had all the fenders the same color and none of the fenders was falling off. Our jobs were professional ones, not working at McDonald’s or cleaning sewers.

I just don’t want to hang around with “trash” cause I’m NOT trash, so the “wife swapping” group is out, the “biker gangs” are out, the local drug pushers don’t interest me, and the drug users don’t either, can’t even hang with the local bank ROBBER (one) cause he’s in prison now (though I did know him) so guess I will just have to hang around with the boring folks who don’t do drugs, don’t cheat on their spouses, don’t beat their spouses, and don’t rob banks. Yep, BORING IS GOOD!


Holy Cow, Oxy et al, these stories are enough to make ones hair stand on end. Even by P standards.

The scariest bit is that the condition has a genetic factor and cannot be treated. What then are we to do? If they conceive more children than they can care for, they don’t care. If they destroy the normal children they do have? They don’t care. If we put them in a cell with a loop of all their damage and destruction playing 24/7 they would not care.

How can society as a whole, derailed by the actions of these disordered people, throughout history I suppose, right itself? How can we be serious about a justice system, and protecting our citizcens from the chaos they create, while preserving a system that is sociopathic to it’s core?

Here is the dilema, as I see it:

1) All you need is love

2) PSN’s cannot love

3) But we do

Other than good actions on our part, and avoidance, what are we to do?

I would wager that in no time in civilization have more S’s held positions of power and been able to communicate easily with each other.

At the same time, the power of communication has gone global, as we blog here on LF and educate and uplift, and millions of interactions between loving as well as predatory people now go on every hour of every day.

I know for myself that coming to recognize these deficient people in my own experience and in the big picture is both empowering and frightening.

What is especially frightening is all the loving and well intentioned people that will not hear you call a liar a liar, until it is too late.

The Beatles once again,

“All I want is some truth, just gimme some truth…”

Peace all,

Ox Drover

Dear Eyes wide shut,

Yep, it is scary isn’t it? The politicians, the greedy CEOs who are “entitled” to millions of dollars in bonsuses for companies they drove into the ground.

A friend sent me a news article clip from 1999 today about Freddie Mac and Fanny May giving way to pressure from the Cllinton administration to grant home loans to people who had bad credit or were unable to put down a down payment.

Banks doing social engineering, and we see what the results are. Millions of homes being foreclosed, etc. because “easy” credit was given to people who had no chance of repaying loans that quickly changed interest rates. But the companies who made these loans picked up fat fees for them, and the adminstration took credit for all these minorities and others being able to get “homes of their own” and part of the “American dream”—while forgetting that you have to EARN your dream. I’m not against a hand up, but hand OUTS never work. They just create people who are dependent.

The truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off!

Yes, the Ps reproduce, and I read somewhere that in the projects in England they estimate that 25% of the children born there now are sired by Ps. That’s scarry for sure! Look at all the teens having babies now, not because of lack of birth control but having Larry’s “love child” means that you are better than the other 6 girls he is sleeping with at the same time and that he will love you more. Yep, I heard one 14 year old SAY THOSE WORDS….she didn’t count on the fact that Larry had 2 other babies in the oven by two of the other girls she was compeating with for Larry’s affection.

Unfortunately, that girl is not by herself, there are millions of others just like her producing kids by the Ps–or, they are the Ps, or both parents are Ps. I don’t know a way to stop it or slow it down. We hve birthcontrol information and help out there for these kdis, but getting them to USE IT is another problem. I can only sit and shake my head and pray for our society!

I imagine that in the days we lived in tents and caves, that the Ps probably sired most of the kids even in those days, or took all the food so he/she could survive, not worrying about the rest of the members of the tribe. In some ways, I can even see it as a benefit in survival if resources are very limited, which they have been until recent decades in most of the world, and still are in much of the world. Take what you need or want and don’t worry about the rest of the people, let them starve or eat “cake”—you don’t care as long as you get what you need or want. Dog eat dog.

I’m still glad I’m not like that though. I’m still glad that the majority of people are not that way either. I’m afraid that I would not be happy living in a world where I was the only “true loving caring human” but nice to know I am not alone in that aspect either. I am just going to do my best to survive and prosper and stay as far away from “them” as I can. Fortunately, most of us DO have a choice, lots of folks in 3rd world countries don’t have a choice. Lots of women in ARabia don’t have a choice of whom they marry, or a choice to leave him. India, ditto. So I thank God that I live where I do, it may not be perfect, but from the majority of the world I have seen, it is much much MUCH better than most.

Elizabeth Conley

Ox Drover,

Boring is beautiful, and I admit to having recently become something of a snob. We’ve reconnected with our oldest and dearest friends, and sticking to them like glue. They’re geeks like us, and it feels very comfortable. The church we’re settling into is solidly middle to upper middle class, and that fits too. I thought our social connections would be more diverse after Dan retired, but actually we’re living a more segregated lifestyle than ever before. We’ve segregated ourselves, not by race or income, but definitely by education and interests.

I feel sad, because the romantic in me was really passionate about the ministries I had served when I encountered the N and the S. But there’s no denying that the two men did flock together, were part of the same twisted subculture, and lived to play head games. In retrospect, expecting them to be appreciably different from each other was unrealistic. Further, It should have been obvious that their lifestyles and personalities weren’t appreciably different from that of the troubled community we were supposed to serve.

If I hadn’t been so mesmerized by what they said, I would have noticed how they lived. All the warning signs were there.

Jim in Indiana USA

Oxy…I should stay off this subject, but let’s remember, the P targets the victim, who has tendencies to be “fooled” by the LIE of the P. Once the victim’s available supply, financial and emotional, is sucked out…the P is on to the next target. And the victim is blamed and smeared, and “others” don’t “get it.”
They buy into the LIE and the smear.

Housing. There is roughly $11 trillion dollars of mortgage debt in the US. Fannie and Freddie “hold” or “guarantee half of it, or $5.5 trillion. Property values have dropped 20% and total value of residential real estate in the US is about $20 trillion. Less than 10%-15% of the $11 trillion is in default or foreclosure. This is the view from the P’s running the show at the top…government and Wall Street Financials.

We victims buy a house…we are told by the P’s we qualify and the value will rise. If we don’t have 20% down or finance over 80% of the appraised value, we have to pay for PMI (private mortgage insurance) or LMI is “in there” (lender mortgage insurance) to cover THE LENDER against loss if we default.

So the P’s take our mortgage (and all other debt they can find)…they slice, dice, sell, bundle and “securitize” it, sell it and “insure” it against “risk”…six to ten times it’s original value. and resell and resell…collecting fees “free money” at each transaction….until the house of electronic cards collapses.

The PMI policy the homebuyer is paying for protects the LENDER against loss….so why is there a loss to the lender on the mortgage default?

Does it add up? By being fooled by the P, the victim stupid, irresponsible homeowner, defaults on 10% of $11 trillion dollars of mortgages covered by insurance he has paid against the lender’s loss .

The global financial markets lose, and governments (victim taxpayers including stupid homebuyers) bail out, $20 trillion+ of P “losses”.

Do the math.

The P’s take the money, blame the homebuyer…victim. The classic P lie….it makes no sense, and we join in with the P and his lie…blaming the victim.




Part of the problem with what I call the “magic mortgages” is that there was no PMI on them. YOu couldn’t afford 20 percent down? Not to worry, we’ll lend it to you on a piggyback loan. So, the original mortgage was still only 80 percent and didn’t require PMI. Make sense? No, not to me either, but that’s they way they sold this crap.

Magic mortgages are based on something we’ve discussed on this site continuously — magic mortgages. Yes, the lenders dreamed up these half-baked schemes. But, what about these people who borrowed them. I want to scream when I hear them say “I didn’t understand what I was getting into.”

YOu know what? I”ve looked at some of these loan products — and I have not one, but two law degrees — and I can’t tell you what they’re about. However, if you are signing on the dotted line for a million dollar home and you are making 17 thousand a year, your common sense should kick in and say “Whoa, Nellie! No way I can make that monthly payment.”

So, I’m afraid the victim’s don’t get a free pass for me. Basic rule of life is if you don’t understand what you’re signing, you don’t sign it until you have somebody explain it to you real clear.


Sorry — meant to say magic mortgages are based on MAGIC THINKING.

Ox Drover

YEP! MATT you are so right! I look around me at the communities of $250K homes (which in this area would cost $2 million in other areas) that people were buying without any down payment and in some cases borrowing 110% of the value of the home on the idea tht the value of it would GO UP! Now that it is DOWN they are into the lender for 110% but the value of the house is now 80% of what it was so there is NO WAY they can buy out of that so it goes into foreclosure and there are no buyers either.

How these people were sold this bill of goods that they could afford 2 suv’s and a quarter million (or more) house on the salary of a school teacher and a bank clerk I do not have any idea.

It is unbelieveable to me…talk about a Ponzi scheme, they did that with Real estate too—-no one had a conscience when they sold these folks the bill of goods that they could have the American dream of this big house on their salaries. The “victim” also bought into it because it ws their DREAM, just like WE bought into the Ps scheme because it was our DREAM. The RE agent made their 6% commissoon, the banker made the loan, the contractor did okay building the house and everyone won—except the poor smuck stuck with a mortgage he couldn’t pay now they have less than nothing.

Just heard on the news today that there were 240,000 foreclosures filed in February. Up from January.

I agree with your “don’t sign anything til you understand it.” BUT anyone should be able to figure if they have no savings, and use 110% of their income each month to make payments on house and vehicles, there is something going on that it isn’t going to work for long.

I guess I have some of my grandparents’ depression era mentality, but I do my best to spend less than I make. To do without something I can afford, use things, and “use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.”

Jim in Indiana USA

Ok, that post disappeared…so let’s go to an older, wiser, biblical rule: neither a borrower nor a lender be….

carry on…we agree and disagree…

We’ll see where it takes us.

By the way Oxy…nevermind….




“We victims buy a house”we are TOLD by the P’s we qualify and the value will rise”

What in the heck are we doing relying on anyones crystal ball that we qualify and blindly trusting that the value will rise…. We know what we have,what we can afford, and that its a crap shoot as to the value rising…we choose to become the victim when we put our self worth and self trust into the hands of someone wanting to seal the deal for their own benefit… IF WE DONT HAVE 20% TO PUT DOWN OR CANT FINANCE 80% – PERHAPS WE SHOULD LOOK FOR A HOUSE WE CAN AFFORD – INSTEAD OF FALLING INTO THE P’S TRAP.


People were sold the bill of goods – because they wanted to believe and live their fantasy…so they tossed reality and caution to the wind and said where do I sign… and the P said… right here on the dotted line… THANK YOU VERY MUCH. C YA.. Oh and by the way did you read the small print…(red flags) you need to put down 20% or finance 80% and incase you really dont qualify or if the value decreases you need to pay for PMI/LMI… Nice to meet you. Id love to stay and chat, but Im off to buy a new house myself with the money I just made on your deal. Technically I can afford it if it was my only residence but its my third, and well the cars and boats and mistresses add up… so Ill probably add more to the choas and just finance it too!

Its a little bit of both… the lender and the buyer… need to rethink/revamp the way business is done… honestly and realistically

Ox Drover


I guess maybe in some ways I got a good financial education because of my depression era grandparents. My egg donor was born in 1929. My grandparents were marginal farmers anyway and thrifty, and hard working, planned well, and lived on what they grew and made, didn’t go into debt except for their land which they had to buy most of from the estate of my grandfather’s father who died in 1926.

They worked like slaves to get this land, and didn’t buy things they couldn’t afford. My egg donor was a school teacher and then later an accountant, my step father was a school teacher so we never had much money, but they managed it well and saved a little bit every pay day. She’s still cashing the 30+ year old US savings bonds they bought for $12.50$ every pay day, each one pays out about $200 now with the interest over the years added to the principle for 30 years.

I grew up earning my own spending money, chopping cotton for $3 for a 10-hour day when I was 12, hauling hay for 5 cents a bale, got my first “real” job in 10th grade, working in a pharmacy during the summer and after school, and all day saturday during the school year.

Learned to save, budget, and balance a check book. I’ve been broke since then, while I was in college got down to $1.37 in my checkking account, and invested the money into a nickle ante poker game and won enough for groceries that week. Wrote and sold magazine articles and cleaned other people’s houses, bartered, raised my own food even while going to school, and did without or made do. Now I don’t owe a soul a dime, and times are tough, prices going up, money staying the same, 401K out the window, so that’s no cushion like I thought it was. I brought up my kids to learn to save up, pay their bills and work an honest day for an honest pay, but to whatever it took to find a job. Get an education, but work hard. Don’t be too proud to take a job “beneath” you if that is what you have to do.

This house is only the second house I ever owned, paid cash for both of them. AFter we moved here, kept the other house and a small MIL house on the property to rent out (good decision) decided a while back to sell the 2 rental units (another good choice as I sold at the top of the market). Did a lot of the construction here myself (I can float sheet rock with the professionals) which kept the cost down for a nice home.

I’m not any financially smarter than a lot of people, but I don’t “dream” big dreams that I am not sure I can pay for. One of my husband’s friends who was a financial consultant advised me to mortage the rental units and “leverage” my money and buy 10 more units and have them ALL paying rent. I thought about it, might could have paid them all off in 10-15 years (if the RE market hadn’t crashed) but I kept thinking that if the renter didn’t pay one month, or I had a dead beat, I didn’t have to scramble to pay the mortage on the rental unit, so I never did “leverage” against them. He died richer by far than I ever was, but I played it safe and in the end, I think I made the right decision.

I have been advised by financial people who were conservative to have at least six months worth of living expenses tucked away….which means doing without a lot of things sometimes instead of dipping into that fund. I accumulated my “living fund” a buck at a time sometimes, but I always put something into the fund each month.

I look at my spending, and since the down turn we have cut out a lot of”little” things that over the course of a year add up to hundreds of dollars. Instead of buying bottled water, we refill the bottles to take with us. We seldom go out to eat any more or stop in and pick up a few cokes (sodas). I stopped the cable, the house telephone, turned the thermostat back this winter, did some winterizing on the house. Turn off lights if we leave the room. All these things add up to a big savings at the end of the year. We don’t just zip into town for a loaf of bread, but shop once a week at most (we live 13-18 miles from town) and do all our errands in one town while we are there. I cook basic foods and plenty of them, but do not buy chips and “junk” foods or empty calories.

This year I am going to grow a garden again for the first time in a long time, and we will have home grown meat, milk, eggs and veggies. I have a small fruit orchard but I planted it in the egg donor’s yard to keep the deer away, so will have to buy fruit. I like us to have a balanced diet so we try to do that too. I keep a supply of basic foodstuffs, flour, beans, cooking oil, rice, corn meal, bread, powdered milk, sugar, and a few other things frozen in case of emergency. The Mormons have the right idea on that keeping a supply of emergency food, I think. I don’t have a year’s supply like they do, but enough for 2-3 months before I have to kill Fat and Hairy for meat. LOL

I’ve always tried to run my finances like a “business” so that there is more income than there is outgo, and that I am not “eating up” the profits every month by “high living.” I live comfortably, but “thrifty” and I even have indoor plumbing and electric lights—I wish that dog would run faster on the tread mill my screen is getting dim! LOL

I grieves me that so many people get out of highschool or college and have NO IDEA how to manage finances to their own advantage—it is just keep on spending til the credit card company won’t finance any more. Or not make one payment on something, so you can keep them from repossessing the car. I’m working with a young man now, just coming out of a short marriage with a psychopath and he is in deep financial trouble and has NO IDEA HOW TO HANDLE IT. Totally ignorant of financial things. Works hard and is respoonsible but IGNORANT TO THE MAX. Not stupid, just ignorant, and his parents didn’t teach him jack about handling finances.

He is a willing and eager student, but I’m not sure he can dig himself out without declaring bankruptcy at this point. His soon to be X just didn’t make the car payments for 4 months although he was telling him she was, then becuse the car was re-po’d (which now means he has another added debt to it) she burned the divorce papers instead of giving them back to the lawyer! Typical P! I coulda predicted that one without a crystal ball, but he didn’t even think to check if she was actually making the payments! He is also in the “toy department” with several nice “toys” he couldn’t afford and now has to keep paying on or give them back and still incur the debt.

I AM grateful to the egg donor for the financial advise and teaching that she gave me—-it has helped me throughout my life. I may not be “rich” but being out of debt and my house paid for puts me among the “richest 2% of the US population.” Right up there will Bill Gates! ROTFLMAO.

You guys have a good night, I am going to bed. The dog will have me up at the crack of daylight.


Oxy – You did it your way.. you trusted yourself…you made decisions based on what you had, what you could afford… and there AINT A DERN THING WRONG WITH PLAYIN IT SAFE!!! TOWANDA

Love the poker story…. I recently learned how to play Texas Hold Em at a charity event and am hooked! Lol Never played before and now play in World Poker Tour Amateur Poker League once a month – (play for fun.. no money…and the prizes for first and second place are TV’s, restaurant certificates, etc. its a fun night for sure)

And bite your tongue about Fat and Hairy… I AM BOINKING YOU FOR THAT ONE…. The LF Mascotts til the end!!!

Jim in Indiana USA

Oxy, Matt, learnEDthe lesson….

“Oxy”I should stay off this subject,”….me, last night

LOL, I knew it. And I concluded from the answers, Bernie Mad(e)off is not a “P”….those people who gave him that money should have known better…their fault, they weren’t targets or victims, either.

Some other place, some other time….in the future, we’ll see how it turns out….as the P’s multiply!


Jim – Bernie is a P –and the people who gave him money should have protected THEMSELVES. ITS BOTH. ITS BOTH.

The P’s continue to multiply and the others continue to give them what they want because they arent protecting themselves.

I truly do not belong in this conversation either …lol… no expertise with any of it… except I noticed the P’s lack honesty and the others lack reality… = The state of the world today.


Im off to class. Enjoy the weekend everyone. Cant find my sunglasses and I dont even care today! LOL

Ox Drover

Dear LTL—and Jim—

QUOTE LTL: “The Ps lack honesty and the others (victims) lack reality”


They sure are NOT honest, and WE sure did NOT have reality, we focused on the DREAMS.

It is the same with these people who bought houses and toys they could not afford, they focused on the dream and the desires to have the “big house” and the “toys” just like a kid would—believing in Santa Claus telling them they could have anything and everything they wanted by just “signing on the dotted line.”

THAT financial lie I never believed, thank goodness! Thanks to my grandparents’ experiences during the FIRST Great Depression of 1929 (there have always been others every few years since Jamestown was settled).

I also believe that much of our spending is “emotion” based rather than logic based. I’ve tried to use the LOGIC basis for spending rather than EMOTIONAL based spending.

Once my cousin (female) was complaining about how broke she was and that her car payment was late, etc. and I suggested that she go to an UPSCALE resale shop we had in our little town that had AWESOME PRICES on GREAT clothes, and she responded “But they wouldn’t have the LATEST FASHIONS THERE.” She and her husband now, 30 years later, are still in financial distress because they do not manage their money well and spend from an “emotional” stand point of “I have to have the latest fashions even if I don’t have the money.”

I have always dressed NICELY for work, but I bought GOOD clothes from the “Upscale resale shop” that had come from people like my cousin. Many of the items even had the original tag on them, showing they had been bought and never worn. I paid about $1-2 for every $10 the garment cost new and it was STILL new.

Now that I have a closet full of classic nice “dress up” and “funeral” clothes, I don’t buy there any more as I seldom wear the ones I have, and so I have “down scaled” to the large Good Will store here for my clothing for around the farm or just casual wear. When they were growing up, my kids were some of the best dressed kids around, and they didn’t even know stores sold clothes, they thought “you bought clothes in someone else’s front yard.” LOL

I actually live in the “style” of someone with an income, after taxes, of about $65-70 Thousand dollar a year, and have everything I need and really want—but I do it on an income of well below the federal poverty line. My vehicles aren’t new, my clothes aren’t the lastest fashions, and I don’t buy a lot of convenience foods or “go out” for dinner very often and we make most of our own “low cost” entertainment with friends. But my house isn’t in foreclosure and I’m happy and well fed, so I guess that makes me a success financially. The apostle Paul advised his disciples to be CONTENT in their status whatever it was. Doesn’t mean don’t have ambitions, but don’t let your ambitions for anything rule your life to your own detriment.

The psychopaths seem to be always WANTING things and are never satisfied with what they have. My own being satisfied with WHAT I have, lends me a lot of peace of mind.

OK, I’ll except the BOINK for hinting that if I got hungry I might eat Fat and Hairy—I couldn’t do it and you know it, though! LOL I might knockk off the Trojan Horse P and eat his fat butt, plenty of lard, but not Fat and Hairy! They’re my babies! LOL

Jim in Indiana USA

Oxy…content is good. Peace is good…and as long as Fat and Hairy aren’t roasting in the oven or frying in the skillet…that’s good, too. LOL I’m off the subject discussed earlier. (picture a “smiley”).


I’m one of those people who owe 110% on my house. My husband’s aunt bought the townhouse we live in as an investment property with plans to rent it out (this was at the height of the market). Six months later, when it was still unoccupied she offered to let my husband and I move into it at the same rental price we were paying for our apartment with an understanding that we could rent to own when we could afford it. Ha. A few months after we moved in she told us she needed to sell the place to free up more money for other investments and we either needed to buy it or move out. We were not in a very good financial position to buy, but we had just invested a lot of money into moving, so we agreed to do the purchase. She contacted the company she had her mortgage through and we all met. She and the mortgage broker went over our finances and worked out a deal where we would roll our credit card debt, car payments, student loans all into the mortgage to improve our credit. Unfortunately, we didn’t qualify to borrow enough to cover all the debt, but the aunt graciously said she would pay off my husband’s car and take over my student loan payments so we could afford the townhouse (so she could get rid of it). We were not entirely happy, but we agreed. Fast forward a few months, my husband’s car is paid off, but the aunt starts asking when we will be able to take over payments on the student loan again. She continued to make the payments until my husband and I separated. Once we got back together we were stuck with even more debt and the student loan, but we were exactly breaking even each month with a roommate renting out one of our bedrooms. Tack on an unexpected pregnancy, several unreliable roommates, and the only way we’re near breaking even is with money from our income tax return and help from my parents. We’ve never had big dreams, just a roof over our heads and food to eat. It would be nice to foreclose and just walk away, but my husband and I take responsiblity for our poor financial decisions and will continue making whatever sacrifices we need to to pay our bills. And the other valuable lesson we learned from this, don’t trust his aunt.

I do wish they had a class, or a seminar, or something in high school that dealt with the basics of personal finance. My parents make three times as much money as me and my husband, but they’ve also wasted more money than I’ve made this far in my life, they couldn’t give me any financial advice when I was growing up because they were just as in the dark as I was. Everything I’ve learned this far has been through trial and error, with lots of errors.

Ox Drover

Dear Midnight,

I see the same need in highschool for a class, and especially in college. The university I went to had lots of good mandatory classes, one was learn to swim. At the time I went to university I did NOT know how to swim and I was FORCED to learn. I’m still not a good swimmer, but I did learn.

I never had any financial classes in college about finance, and I did have ONE “business law” course in highschool that was really a good class. When I transferred schools due to a move, the new school had nothing to compare to that class. It explained the basics of law, what a tort was, etc. and how the legal system is supposed to work. LOL

My egg donor being an accountant and in the financial business and handling her own finances very well, she taught me that, as well as my family did instill a work ethic and a frugality chip in my systems. LOL

I know that there are many other “unsuspecting” people got dragged into the Real Estate “balloon” (blow up and bust). It is a shame because they did NOT have the financial management knowledge and took what they thought of at the time as “the best” options. Back again to “Buyer Beware” and so many people, they said on the news last night who would like to file for divorce are still forced to live together in the same house because they can’t afford to leave it and get separate residences.

Bankruptcy filings and foreclosure filings are going up up UP every day. Ah la 1929 I think, but then I am a cynic about that sort of thing. I’ve made some BAD investments in the past and some DUMB financial decisions that cost me a LOT of money, and so did my late husband, but I was fortunate that I held the line at getting into debt for consumer stuff I didn’t need or couldn’t pay for unless everything went lovely! Now that things are NOT lovely, for me or the economy, those lessons I learned early on are paying off for me. The “unreliable renters” were the reasons I sold those rental properties, and I was fortunate it was at the top of the balloon, it had just started to sink a little when I put then up for sale and they sold. Thank goodness or I would be pan handling now. “Will work for jack ass feed!”


I told my cats if things get much worse they’re going to have to go out and get jobs.

We are very fortunate in my job, I just got a raise that will go into effect at the end of the month which will allow us to continue living without roommates since we haven’t been able to find a new one since the last one moved out with no notice in December. Having roommates is like marrying a complete stranger, you rely on them to help pay the bills, keep the house clean, but you don’t really know what they’re like until you’ve been living with them for awhile. With a 14 month old in the house sleeping in the room next to the one we used to rent out, we decided it would be better to do without than risk letting the wrong people in.

Ox Drover


I still say you are a smart cookie! I think that is a rational decision and a good one! “Marrying a complete stranger.” I had a guy apply for a rental property once that I am sure now was a P. He was driving a nice car (his current female roomie’s) dressed nice (she bought them) but had an FBI FOLDER A FOOT THICK…after “checking his references” and finding he had a domestic disturbance warrant for his current “roomie” (he was supposedly a college student) I found out about him and called the law. But he was so NICE! Aren’t they all? As my egg donor put it after my X-DIL and the TH-P’s arrest “I dont’ understand it, they were so RESPECTFUL of me.” (which I hadn’t been of course, cause I told her the truth!) and yea, it pithed her off! AT ME!



Sounds like he was counting on you not checking references because he was so “nice.”

The thing I came to realize is that even if the person you’re renting to is decent, that doesn’t mean their friends are. We had a 21 yr old girl renting from us who was really nice, she even bought clothes for the baby, but she started hanging out with these guys that were pretty shady. One evening I was sitting in my living room watching a movie when she came downstairs with one of her guy friends and met another at the door. The new guy looked at the other guy and said, “hey, you look familiar” then started asking questions about where he had gone to school, where he had worked, and finally asked if he had done time in so-and-so correctional facility. Turns out they new each other from prison, PRISON!

Ox Drover

Ah, yes! The old buddies from the prison! Maybe you should lookk for an old retired lady renter instead of young girls who don’t (yet) have sense enough to stay away from the “bad boys.” Sheesh!


My future ex- husband and I were renting the house I now own when the owner of the house offered to sell it to us. We took over there mortgage for a year with a promise to get our own mortgage at the end of the year. Insted of a down payment we agred to put money into the house by relacing all of the windows in the house, 22 for about 10,000 dollars. Four years later and I can’t afford the mortgage partly because my ex is $5000 behind in child support. My divorce will be final at the end of May and I want to sell the house then, but it doesn’t look good. I know I can do a short sale, but I have worked so hard to clean up my credit and my debt I don’t want to lose it! After ending a very complicated marriage with a P I just want to move on and continue to improve my life. When I look back on what I did wrong with the house I’m not sure where I went wrong, maybe like many things in my life latley it is just bad luck?


Jim in Indiana USA said:

I checked for a criminal record, found the handgun permit”documented the fact he was actually married to his wife”

Now we have his son, 23, turn up—spending time” with my 13 year old daughter”just out of “rehab” for drugs and alcohol”with a 2 yr old son. His ex-girlfriend flaunts her “bi” personna on Myspace”chaos to the max!

It is harmful to conflate bisexuality with depravity and chaos. Bisexual people are not any more likely to behave in harmful ways than people of other sexual orientations.

Jim in Indiana USA

“It is harmful to conflate bisexuality with depravity and chaos. Bisexual people are not any more likely to behave in harmful ways than people of other sexual orientations.”


Well, we all pick out our “issues”….the whole picture, not just the sexuality, was chaos. The “need” to “flaunt”, in the way it was presented, also was an issue for me…whatever…hope you find what you need here. I’ll try not to offend your sensibilities. All are welcome. Carry on.


Jofary, your letter couldn’t have come at a better time.
I have just returned from court, for a jury trial that my sp-daughter requested, after she was charged with assaulting me, malicious destruction of property, and trespassing. These occurrences were actually the first within 2 days of a similiar occurrence. (Basically, she came in my home within 2 days of each other and assaulted me, without warning)She took the deal in the other case and received probation and was ordered to domestic counseling. This case, she was adamant to fight, rejecting a wonderful deal up to the very end. I had received word of a slanderous blog she had posted about me. I then received an email from her. It was very apparent that her goal was to smear me in court, to no end.
I have been faced with her slanderous assaults on my personality before. I had faced the same assaults from her father, so it was no surprise where these words were coming from. What I fail to grasp, is the “shock” when I am initially slammed with these attacks. They are so wild and crazy…and straight up…Lies. They can be so believeable to an outside audience and leave people actually questioning whether or not they are true! But the initial shock at these unbelieveable lies, catches me off-guard and leaves me speechless as I am trying to comprehend these verbal assaults and lies.
Before court today, I tried to prepare myself for the unbelievable. She had already alluded through an email as to what she intended on doing to me, in court. Mind you, she is the one that came to my home unannounced and attacked me. I am tired of being made to feel like I am the guilty one.
Through my years of dealing with ex-relationships and family and other personal relationships….normal people do not hold grudges and do, get on with their life. Some, even with an emotional break-up, would not offer to slander me or hold a grudge…to this day. So I take these past relationships and maintain, that I am not a bad person. If I was, I am certain that people would have plenty to say.
In conclusion, my daughter took the deal after 3 attempts from her attorney and the prosecutor, just before we walked into court. I am certain she is not finished with me, as she alluded in her email. So I am healing emotionally and still being being watchful…trying to prepare for the next bomb to be dropped. Definitely not the way to LIVE.


passingthrough – “bisexual people are not any more likely to behave in harmful ways than people of other sexual orientations.” Think we all agree there is no increased link to violence in that regard!

And I didnt interpret Jims comment that way. I interpreted his comments about his ex-tox’s partner and the partners 23 year old son as unfortunately having access to “spend time” with his 13 year old daughter possibly exposing this child to influences he might not voluntarily choose to subject his daughter to (i.e. drug/alcohol rehab, open bi-sexuality, hand guns, adultery, etc.) suggesting that the atmosphere has a chaotic element – that his 13 year old daughter should be able to call her father if ever uncomfortable over there.


Trla – Nothing like driving you crazy til the very last minute! Im glad you escaped a trial. And I hope you are keeping copies of her emails and anything else you are made aware of (ie. slanderous blogs)..

perhaps a restraining order would be beneficial at this point and the obvious NC…NC…NC!

Glad you are healing. Hope LF helps you get through this as it continues to help me heal too!

Ox Drover

Dear Tria,

I am so sorry that this is all happening to you from your daughter. I have a P son, and Rune, another blogger here has one, and I am sure there must be others here who have children that are psychopaths.’

I a glad you are here at LF because this has been such a healing place for me. I know I am NOT alone in this. It has been so difficult for me to let go of the MALIGNANT HOPE that my son, even after murdering a girl, would “repent” and live a descent life. (what on earth was I thinking?)

I too have to keep a vigilant eye out for another attack from my P son, he tried to have me murdered not quite two years ago. I tooo know that he has not given up, and will mount another attack if he is able to. The man he sent to kill me (an ex-coonvict, sex offender, robber, etc. and former cell mate of his) is now out on parole, so I have to keep an eye out for him as well. I actually doubt that he will be the one that my son sends next time, because that man knows both my sons and I are armed and vigilent, but the next man may be a complete stranger.

The wonderful little boy my son was before he hit puberty is the “son” I remember, but that wonderful child is GONE, not to return. The MAN who is trying to kill me is NOT my son, that sweet little boy. It is like, I think, that my “son” died and his organs were given to this man, but this man who hates me is NOT that little boy. The little boy is dead and gone.

I actually had a “private memorial” service for my young son and “buried” him—-I can relate to these people whose kids are kidnapped and they never find a body, etc. the only way I got closure was to BURY and consider my son DEAD. The fact there is some stranger, some adult man who hates me, is a fact I can’t get around, but this MAN is no more to me than any stranger that hated me would be.

I don’t know this man, this evil Charlie-Manson-wanna-be, so there is no emotional attachment to a “son” now. I don’t know if this makes any sense to you at all, or if you feel the same way, but I do know that it worked for me. And, really, I DO NOT know this “man” in prison for murder, I cna’t fathom how his evil mind works. I know he hates me for whatever “injuries” he thinks I have done to him, but he isn’t my “son.”

God bless you, Tria, and welcome to LF…hang around and read articles in the archives and blog with us. This is a great, accepting, understanding and caring group of people here. If ever there was a “community” of people, this is it. (((hugs))))


Oxy! And I thought I was the ONLY one who wanted a “private memorial” for my ex-tox. It actually crossed my mind, when I was struggling and in a bad place…I told my gf that if I held a private memorial literally walked over to cemetary and layed a flower down on empty space..that it might help me transition to “acceptance” and have closure – it was just that hard for me, never anything like it before. I never did it because in my situation he isnt incarcerated – so along with the chance of running into the “living dead” – I really wanted to work on/work thru my own personal issues of not being able to move on from this person. Bascially I concluded I wanted to make the choice to let him go and live on…so I could focus on becoming a healthy person who makes good choices of balancing self-worth, self-trust and self-love with that of others who earn my friendship and love the natural healthy way.

The journey is sooooooooo long and hard. But the healing and break throughs come in small but timely increments!!! Its good, and if I stay on track it can only get better.

Having a S/P child is an untold journey that thankfully you bravely share with sensitivity and much needed reality.But I could relate to your need for closure and I know I would have had a private memorial service too, if it were my situation. Im glad you were able to do that for yourself.


Ox Drover

DEar learned,

AFter my P son was arrested for murder, I went into a downward spiral of depression and grief so deep thqt I look back now and realize I should have been hospitalized. I lost 35 pounds, didn’t sleep AT ALL for 7 days, and didn’t eat for 14. I locked myself in my house and did not see anyone outside my family for 3 months. My friends thought I had dropped off the face of the earth.

Yes, the journey is difficult, but IT IS WORTH IT.

At the time I was in the blue funk, I literally wished he was dead and theh girl arrested for his murder. The community of people will give empathy and sympathy and comfort to the parents of a murdered child but NO ONE GIVES EMPATHY, SYMPATHY AND SUPPORT TO THE FAMILY OF THE MURDERER.

I literally thought about if he had been killed, that people would be filling my house to support me, as it was I was holed up like an animal hiding in its hole. ASHAMED of my son, and taking that shame on to myself. I didn’t feel that I was responsible for his actions or blame myself, but I felt SHAME none the less.

I thought how comforting it would be to close the coffiin lid and know my son was not suffering. Instead, I knew he was in a tough jail situation, a small and young white boy in the minority among pretty tough Mexicans and blacks. He did receive many physical wounds too, broken wrists (x 2) shoulder so dislocated that his arm was essentially useless. 20 years later they finally operated on it. From moment to moment I didn’t know how he was. I felt like a mother whose child had been kidnapped and they didn’t know what was happening to the child. I expected see his face on a milk carton with the question, “Have you seen this child?”

He would call and cry and say “Mom, I didn’t do it!” And I wanted to believe him. Tried to believe him, yet in my heart I knew he did it. It was only a year and a half later, after his conviction at trial, that I spoke to his attorney (public defender) and the attorney, without violating any attorney-client priviledge, told me the EVIDENCE presented in court, that PROVED WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT MY SON DID IT. NO question he did it. Still my son lied and claimed innocence.

Now, 18 years later, he not only admits doing it but is PROUD OF THE HORROR OF IT, and he says “It was much worse than the cops even knew”—when he said that, that was when I KNEW that I HAD to NC him, forever, and deal with my grief. Not only the grief of his being what he is, but the grief of the loss of my own time, efforts, love etc. in trying to “believe” him against what I knew to be the TRUTH. The man who replaced my wonderful little boy was a MONSTER. A dangerous monster. Some how, some way, I had to make my own closure….as we all do….with our psychopaths. I had to work through the grief, the denial, and my own anger at myself for having been in that denial for so long. I had to accept the truth, as painful as it is/was, before I could heal.

I actually had that “memorial” service as a way to come to that closure with a familiar “ritual” of mourning. Though I didn’t have a “body” to bury (like a parent whose child was kidnapped) I buried that “young son” and disengaged myself from the MAN he has become. Just as the memorial service for my late husband commemorated his life, and our loss, it gave me closure, that I will never see him again in this lifetime, but now that I have worked through the grieving of the loss, I can again remember the good times and smile, and even the tough times we had when we were together. He is and will always remain a big part of my life. Even if I remarry, he will still have been part of my life, part of who I am. Finding another man to love (if I ever do) will not take away from the relationship I had with my husband, nor will my relationship with my husband be compared to my “new love” either.

My adopted son D is, I think, God’s way of replacing the son I lost, the son I buried, and he is a joy and a comfort to both me and my other biological son C.

While I realize that my “dead” son’s organs are still functioning inside the body of a “stranger” it is more like after his death his “organs were donated” to someone else. That person would not be my son just because he had my son’s kidney, and heart, and so on.

Even if the PERSON we “lose” is still “the living dead” the RELATIONSHIP is dead, and deserves some kind of symbolic CLOSURE. To me, the “memorial service” just for myself was that closure. I put away all the photographs of my P-son after about age 12, and I still have some favorite photos of him as a little boy around my house. Formerly being a professional photographer I have lots of photographs, but those of the days when my P-son was making my life hell, are not what I want to remember and think about…but I can think about the sweet little boy that was my living son, but lives no more. Is gone, just like my husband is gone. I can think good thoughts about both of them, and smile and laugh about things that happened in our lives. But they are GONE. Both of them.

The symbology of the “funeral” or the “memorial service” I think is important to the survivors of any kind of “loss” of a signifiant relationship.

The fantasy relationship I have had with my egg donor has become apparent in the last couple of years as well, I am in the process of grieving over that too, and have worked on my feelings of anger in that stage of the grieving. I recently (this past week) had a “break through” in this anger stage and I think I am rapidly approaching the final acceptence stage on my relationship with her as well. I no longer even think about her as my “mother” but rather as a biological conduit, the way I think about my P-sperm donor, who was NEVER a father to me. I NC’d him physically 40+ years ago, but only in the last couple of years have I EMOTIONALLY NC’d him, come to accept that he was what he was, and that was simply the toxic man who donated his sperm to give me life, but was never a parent to me, never loved me, nurtured me, etc, but instead abused me like any other narcissistic and toxic psychopath would do, like he did to everyone in his path. I wasn’t even “special,” just another one of his MANY victims, but was fortunate enough that he didn’t kill me (I know personally of two people he killed and I suspect he killed more).

I am getting to the point now, I think, that I can have a “private memorial service” and bury the mother I only imagined I had. Neither of my sons call her “grandma” any more, but both started to refer to her by her given name. I’m starting to think of her that way too. I didn’t plan it that way, or suggest it to them, or they to me, it just seemed to sort of happen. I no longer look upon her with pity at her being “alone” without any family (I am her only child) or care what the “neighbors think” about me having NC with her, and I have NO doubt that she has smeared me to high heaven with her friends and neighbors, and refusing to associate with your “poor elderly sick mother” is a capitol crime in this community, no matter what kind of psychopathic behavior the parent has engaged in. Yet, these same people know for a fact that I took care of my step father and my egg donor 24/7 for 18 months during his illness and her illness and his death, even.

Coming to peace and acceptance with the past, the things you cannot change, is the only way to get on with life. It is a long journey, but the closer to healing you get, the easier it is. Hang on, and don’t get discouraged. (((hugs))))


Dear Oxy,

Life itself is quite the journey isnt it. Im glad you are in mine, through LF. You have shown all of us what “hanging on ” is all about and that if we each choose to find peace and acceptance with the past, and THE THINGS WE CANNOT CHANGE , we can get on with life.

I cannot thank you enough for simply sharing with me, with us, sharing the love, the pain, your life journey, and the choices you made to survive and heal and carry on with your life by loving and taking care of yourself, your children, your friends, and those who earn your respect and love — as well as those that you witness wanting to change their lives for the better.

You are special, dear Oxy. You deserve to be told this and feel it and be ok with knowing and accepting that truth too!

Thank you. (((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))

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