By | December 17, 2012 69 Comments

Mother of a mentally ill son describes what she faces every day

Perhaps, in the aftermath of the terrible tragedy in Connecticut, people will finally start talking seriously about how to cope with the mentally disturbed. Liza Long, mother of 13-year-old boy who sometimes rages out of control, tells her story.

‘I am Adam Lanza’s mother’: A mom’s perspective on the mental illness conversation in America, on

Dr. Liane Leedom recommended this story for Lovefraud readers.

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Ox Drover

I can so related to this woman’s pain, her fear.. I felt it myself when my son Patrick reached puberty and started raging out of control, he started going down hill with a tail wind, from being a productive student and a loving child to a psychopathic monster….and nothing helped, not therapy, not turning him in to the law….NOTHING helped.

Then he learned to manipulate me…and con me into thinking he had reformed…until that day the school cop came to my door and told me he had heard that Patrick had a gun at school….and then I found the gun, took it away and the real fight started….but because I loved him, he continued to manipulate me that he had reformed…even after 2 years in prison.

Now, he is in prison for murder…he turned 21 in prison for the murder of Jessica witt…a 17 year old girl who didn’t deserve to die because she did NOT COMPREHEND WHAT A PSYCHOPATH WAS….none of us knew what one was until we finally comprehended it, but Jessica didn’t get a chance to learn and recover…when he called her name and she turned to face him, she ad maybe a few seconds to comprehend she was going to die before the two bullets tore into her brain. Her parents spent the next two weeks trying to find her body.

Yea, I am EVERY mother who has an offspring like Patrick or Adam, who is a loaded gun, cocked for destruction of how many? 1? 2? thousands? The world?


Oxy…I thought of you and Patrick when I heard this woman talk, yesterday, on NPR. She was quite articulate and very thoughtful in her responses. She also never broached the subject of a personality disorder. He is under 18.

It amazes me that no one, not a single person, references personality disorders when talking about these violent events.

Even worse, it is as if the media and experts AVOID it…like it isn’t politically correct to talk about personality disorders. We can talk about autism, being schizophrenic, psychotic breaks. But to say someone is likely a sociopath, or malignant narcissist is like pulling a ‘chicken little’.

Because they were never diagnosed, we cannot talk about it.

The only place I have heard this language, when people speak about this kind of pre-planned violence, is from the nordic countries. There, they speak more openly about psychopaths. It seems to be more a part of their common language, more integrated into the cultural fabric of understanding violence.


Ox Drover

Dear Slim, that’s the thing about the “politically correct” language here and not calling “a spade a spade” where personality disorders are concerned.

Diagnosing a personality disorder and writing it on a chart in a community mental health clinic is a “no, no” no matter what the evidence for such a diagnosis is. Believe me I worked in one and it was amazing how that diagnosis was shunned.

Many of the patients I worked with were BPD…and also they wanted drugs that they liked for anxiety….and they also self medicated with street drugs and Rx drugs they bought. It was very frustrating.

Then the truly mentally ill patients, many were homeless, those patients got short shift in the services they needed.

The DV cases and the many (mainly women) who went back to the abuser, dragging their kids along for the ride. Ii saw those women in the mental health clinic AND in the family medical practice as I did pro bono medical care for them and their kids if they did not have insurance and most did not.

In working in the inpatient facility I saw these dangerous kids and they made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. I felt for the parents of these children…yet, it took me so long to DISCONNECT FROM PATRICK MYSELF even though I KNEW….emotionally it was so hard to “give up” and “let go” until the fateful day when he looked me in the eye (in a prison visiting room) with the CHARLIE MANSON STARE….and bragged about how bad his crime was.

Last time we protested his parole My attorney sent me a copy of the police report and it was the first time I read it, and it made my BLOOD RUN COLD. I sent a copy of that police report to Donna with my article requesting letters to the parole board and if someone can show SHOCK in an e mail, Donna’s response was SHOCK!!!! after reading it. I think it MIGHT have helped me in the beginning if I had read it, but it might not either, no way to tell, but I KNOW NOW, and it still makes my blood run cold.

What to do with kids like this? I don’t know. But pretending that they are just “upset” and that love and care is gonna save them is INSANITY.


OxD, ditto on the puberty, but I always knew that something was “different” about my eldest son. There was an absence of genuine affection (as with his bio-father), and “connection.” As he reached puberty, I was actually skeeved out by hugging my own son – if someone can explain that, I would REALLY appreciate it.

And, all of the love, care, understanding, and parental effort is NOT going to alter a disordered child from becoming a disordered adult. Sure, there are way to teach a disordered child to respond appropriately to certain social cues, but they never FEEL those responses as emotional connections.

I don’t know what to do with children like this, either, because I had one of my own and nobody – not Juvenile Court, counseling therapists, physicians, or clergy – heard the words that I was speaking about his behaviors. They only heard sounds coming out of the mouth of a tired, frustrated, and victimized woman.

Brightest blessings
EDIT ADD: and, there were many, many times when I fantasized about sending my own son off to foster care so that I would have one night’s relief from the anxiety and tension that this kid created. I was often fearful of falling asleep because I honestly believed that he meant to do murder. HOW does a parent explain THAT to agencies, Courts, friends, and family?

Ox Drover

When I worked inpatient juvenile, I saw some of these kids and I worked with them and pretended that I thought they would get better, but I knew that was a snow balls chance in hell and so did every other staff member including the doctors. But it was P:C to say we thought we were “helping” them “learn impulse control” and so on, but you could see the duping delight in the faces of these kids as they talked about building bombs and blowing up their schools or their parents, or the treats they made to burn down the family home while their parents slept.

We “treated” them until they got old enough for Juvy then they went on to big boy’s prisons, or drug rehabs, or the streets….there was not a lot of success with these kids. Not all psychopaths, some truly mentally ill, early bi polar, but even some of those I think were “hatching” psychopathy as well, and ADHD to the max…

Sure, we have to TRY to treat these kids…we have to study them and FIND a way (if there is a way) to treat these kids before they are set in concrete and fix the problem if it can be fixed. We’ve made great strides in bi-polar and other problems that without them also having other problems at the same time can be fixed and the people can live productive and good lives. Unfortunately too many times bi-polar AND psychopathy AND ADHD are all found in the SAME individual.


very eloquently put, all of you.

Oxy, I’m struck by your remark that your job was to “treat” hopeless cases that all of the staff INCLUDING THE DIRECTOR knew were hopeless, but you were held back by PC from speaking the truth. is that what you were saying? Is that still the case today?

Did the parents know the truth, and were being invalidated by ya’ll at the inpatient juvenile place?

(I mean that kindly)

Truthspeak, oh, you are playing my song about a mother who wants genuine help in raising a difficult kid, then is blamed for the bad behavior or dismissed as being tired, frustrated, victimized. No help there.

I remember one time going to an “education fair” with all kinds of booths of agencies and people offering services, and I went up to the one having to do with mental health, and I saw that they offered services (education and awareness and referrals, mostly) for parents and siblings of mentally ill (mostly depression and anxiety, maybe bipolar) children, but no services or acknowledgement of a mentally ill (or personality-disordered) PARENT, with a normal parent trying to co-parent, you know, support for the parent and support for the child in trying to cope, deal with, interact with, ANYTHING. Nothing. I said, “you know, this is really needed….” and she looked at me blankly. Then she said, “I am not aware of anyone out there offering any such services….” this was 3 years ago.

Slimone and Oxy, there is just dead SILENCE on the matter of what personality disorders ARE. That people like this exist. It is so much easier to think that the parents didn’t do their job (well, OK, but if so — WHAT THEN??? Hello?????). Or that the poor kid is just misunderstood. Abused. needs TLC and then everything will be OK.

It is so hard for a parent to come to terms with this in their own child. At which point do you throw in the towel and say, “I’m done. I’ve done everything I can. I give up.” This is ingrained in us as parents, mothers, to never give up on our children.

And what do we do with a parent has such a difficult child that the parent is begging for help, from anyone, anywhere, and there is no help.

And still we do not acknowledge this problem, this reality.

It is just easier to go on pretending that evil does not exist. I mean, it seems easier. But not if you are on the receiving end of it.

Because then, no one will believe you, except another person who has been on the receiving end of it.

Evil doesn’t come riding into town with horns, a tail and a pitchfork.

But I didn’t see this either, for a good 48 years or so of my life. Now that my eyes are opened, it is frustrating to be around so many of my friends and family who don’t or can’t see what I couldn’t or wouldn’t see for so much of my life.

Now they think I’m a nutjob or that I’ve been traumatized but will get over it and go back to believing that all people have good intentions but some people just don’t know how to show it, or that they have been misunderstood.

(I do agree that psychopaths have been misunderstood, LOL!)


Ox Drover

20 years, thhe “professional rules” say that a kid cannot be diagnosed as an Anti Social Personality disorder (and many professionals say this is NOT the same thing as a psychopath) in fact, many professionals don’t actually believe in “psychopathy.”

Professionals “have to beleive” it seems that ALL people can be helped, must be treated as if they can be helped, and pretend that they are helping these people…yet, I submit that these same PC-speaking professionals KNOW IN THEIR HEARTS that these people are NOT “helpable.”

Schools and other “helping” institutions have this PC mind set that if they just have therapy and love and understanding that they will develop a conscience and that is is all ENVIRONMENTAL not genetic. Yet, it is proven over and over that the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE PROBLEM IS GENETIC and environment as LITTLE TO DO WITH IT. In the identical twins, raised apart study, 80+% of identical twiins raised in different environments still became psychopaths….and I would bet the other 20% were high in P traits.

Studies with ALL adopted kids, many or most of which come from “poor quality DNA” or they wouldn’t have been put up for adoption in the first place…show that a high percentage of these children become problematic….DNA showing up even in a good environment.

Dr. Leedom’s book, “Just like his father” shows this. And I understand her own grave concern that her son, the son of her psychopathic ex husband, should have the BEST environment she can possibly give him and maybe he will NOT exhibit his father’s DNA and grow up to be a psychopath. She has worked very hard to instill a conscience and empathy into her son, but until the hormones kick in at puberty and she sees that he still exhibits this empathy and conscience, she won’t know for sure what she is dealing with. I can only imagine the anxiety she has for her son.

My son Patrick until puberty seemed the IDEAL CHILD. Popular with other kids and with his teachers, a highly intelligent child, in all the gifted and talented classes at school. HAD IT MADE to any college he wanted by age 13, then WHAMO! Changed into a monster OVER NIGHT IT SEEMED. As soon as the hormones of puberty hit the DNA became dominant and his need for CONTROL came out in spades. He became OPPOSITIONALLY DEFINANT and INTERMITTENTLY EXPLOSIVE, both “disorders” that are now highly indicative of later psychopathy. Yet no therapist explained to me how to fix this but only blamed me because he came from a “broken home” and his mentally ill daddy deserted him, poor baby. I should have been a better more loving mother. Then my own egg donor stepped in to RESCUE him from me and he went to live with her….of course his criminal behavior continued while under her “loving care” until the cops were about to arrest him then he wanted to come home to live with me and his brother and my then husband.

And of course the behavior continued until he eventually was arrested (I turned him in to the police) and things went down hill from there All the therapy he got—2 years after my divorce with a great therapist…and a year after we moved to florida, none of it helped, arrests didn’t scare him, prison didn’t scare him, rules and parole didn’t change his behavior.

I’m just fortunate I didn’t end up like Adam Lanza’s mother dead in my bed with a bullet in my hhead and if my son ever gets out, there WILL BE A “shoot out at the OK corral” that is why I am asking people to write letters to the parole board


Oxy, I know. I know.

And it really sucks.

Because such a disservice is done to the person they refuse to diagnose (no “treatment” program can address the cause or condition if they pretend it is something else).

And such a disservice to the family members who are then blamed and left to cope alone with the messed up family member. With no support or understanding, only blame.

In the case of a child, no you are not allowed to ‘abandon” your child. But you are given no real help either. and maybe false hope.

I understand about not wanting write off children who are still malleable.

They are our children! How do we come to an understanding that we gave birth to a monster? How do we mark that turning point — where we give up all hope? How do we come to terms with that knowledge? How do we convince others? How do we come to a place where we no longer blame ourselves, even if most everyone else does?

But I wish we had something real to offer these children and their families.

Ox Drover

20 years you said:

They are our children! How do we come to an understanding that we gave birth to a monster? How do we mark that turning point where we give up all hope? How do we come to terms with that knowledge? How do we convince others? How do we come to a place where we no longer blame ourselves, even if most everyone else does?

I totally agree, there are so many QUESTIONS and NO ANSWERS.

Even after my son went to prison for a violent home invasion robbery I didn’t give up hope.

Even after he lied about wanting to come home and go to college, I didn’t give up hope.

Even after he murdered Jessica Witt, I didn’t give up hope entirely. 15 years later I still clung to that malignant hope and actually worked toward his first parole hearing.

A month after his first parole hearing said he couldn’t come back to the board for another 4 years, I SAW the monster for what he really was in a prison visit. It was like a bucket of cold water in my face, it took my breath away but at the same time it WOKE ME UP to just what I was dealing with, his face had the same RAGE FILLED look that my sperm donor had on the night he beat and raped me. It wasn’t about sex, it was about control and humiliation and subjugation. I realized that Patrick was a clone of my P sperm donor and he was EVIL.

Looking back I can’t understand myself why I held on to that MALIGNANT HOPE that he would change. Why time after time I made myself believe his lies when he would do it again and I would believe again.

That is why I guess that two years ago just before Christmas my son C LIED TO ME…about something totally insignificant, and I threw him out of my life for that LIE. I can no longer tolerate LIES in people who are close to me. I WILL not tolerate lies. I’m done with liars no matter what the DNA relationship is or how long we’ve been friends…DONE.


Your comment:
Unfortunately too many times bi-polar AND psychopathy AND ADHD are all found in the SAME individual.

I always thought my ex spath was selfish, very very selfish. Then I thought He was mean spirited, in fact a bully. Then I thought outright abusive. First counselor told me, “He will never change.” I was so mad he talked about my husband that way I never went back. Second counselor said, “He needs to feel a lot of control for your relationship to workThird counselor said, “He sounds like a dry alcoholic” (He wasn’t drinking heavily at that time – it was up and down, this was a little more down). Fourth counselor said he needs to reach out more. Big whoop! Fifth counselor I went to I begged him please diagnosis this so we can treat and get past this. He said “he is a narcissist and you are the co-dependent. ”
But in between and out of all of this I would wonder if he was depressed, insecure, jealous, very unspiritual, bi-polar, aspberger’s , then a nurse friend of mine said, Whoa, He has a personality disorder. I do know he is a huge LIAR!!!
I think these freaks have many things going on.
I also found a website he had bookmarked on the computer after I kicked him out. It was on ADHD. I also found books he had intended to get at the library on alcoholism. So he clearly knew there was something wrong with himself.

I had finally had enough. I didn’t care what it was/or is.
Now instead of diagnosing him I focus on me.
Who am I, was I to tolerate all this?
Yes, I know kind, a giver, way too tolerant. All of those conditions that the monster looks for.
Never again.


Yes, they ALWAYS have more than one thing going on. ALWAYS. It’s never just ONE disorder.


Oxy, that bucket of cold water is the epiphany that probably saved your life. It’s not pleasant, but it’s necessary for survival.

Brightest blessings

Ox Drover


That is IT…we are WAY too tolerant of all the abuse. We try to find an EXCUSE for what is causing the problem….drinks? Okay, if we can get him to stop drinking, all will be well. Bi-polar? get him in counseling and get him some medicine. All will be well. ADHD, more counseling and more medication. All will be well.

We finally realize that no matter WHAT WE DO, that all will NOT be well.

And as Truthy said, that bucket of cold water epiphany probably did save my life. I do believe if he HAD come home after his first 2 years in big boy prison iinstead of going to my husband’s niece’s house in Texas that it would have been ME instead of Jessica he killed. Because he would have broken the law and I WOULD have turned him in–and Jessica turned him in. That’s why he killed her.

She didn’t know what she was dealing with. She thought this “bad boy” she was dating really wasn’t all that bad, and it was exciting. She was young, inexperienced and ignorant, but she did NOT deserve to die because of it…but she did die because of it, because she didn’t know what a red flag was, much less how to spot one. It never occurred to he would actually KILL her.

It didn’t occur to me that he would actually KILL anyone either, and even after he DID kill someone, I “knew” he would never kill ME. LOL Til he sent someone else to do it because he was in prison and couldn’t do it himself. Seeing the truth, though, at least I have not been hiring an attorney to get him out of prison…where he WOULD have killed me.



If I was jumping up and down trying to get that bucket of cold water to be noticed, do you believe it would sink in quicker or be ignored and make it actually take longer for you to “get it”? I feel sometimes like people who are trying to get someone else to “get it”, it almost prolongs them coming to the reality we were jumping up and down about because we hand P an excuse to use with that particular person. For instance “see, she’s crazy, look at her/him” or “they aren’t living in the word of forgiveness” my personal favorite………..NOT……..

Ox Drover


Yea that “forgiveness” carp—but forgiveness in MY book does not mean we restore TRUST to them if they have not proven they are remorseful by a change in behavior.

Yes, I did appear “crazy” and people don’t want to believe that someone will not, CAN NOT change and reform. I had a woman today ask me “well how do you KNOW he has not reformed”?

BECAUSE HE TRIED TO HAVE ME KILLED! How many people does he have to KILL to get it through your head he is a MONSTER?



I would call her up and say “I thought about what you said and I let him know you believe and so I gave him your address and he’ll be coming to stay with you, ma’am when he get’s out. Thanks for letting me see the error of my ways.” 🙂

Ox Drover

Eralyn, LOL Yea, great response! ROTFLMAO


Sometimes when people preach forgiveness with regard to spaths, I engage them in conversation to find out if they are qualified to give me advice or not (qualified: they have had a spath experience of their own).

So I ask them, “you seem to really have faith in this process of forgiveness. Could you please offer me some examples from your life of how this works for you, so that I may better understand?”

This is a neutral approach which — for me — has helped me remain open to learning from someone, who might just have something to teach me, rather than remaining on the defensive since I have been so royally abused, no one can possibly ever understand (that is hyperbole but sometimes I do get into that resentful and angry place, not a place I want to dwell).

So then, sit back and listen to what they say. if they offer an example which is just so pale in comparison to mine, I try to remain centered and open (truly and sincerely; not pretending!) and delve a little deeper: “Thank you for sharing that. It would help me understand better, if you can describe how your relationship with the person has changed, since you forgave them. What is different/better now, and how did the experience transform both of you?”

Sometimes if I can remain open, I find there is actually a valuable lesson or gift in there for me. Sometimes I do discover that the other person (bless them) does not have a clue what my experience is, and so I can appreciate better where they are coming from, even if they can’t appreciate where I’m coming from, and that is a lesson in itself. usually what happens is that I am able to release my frustrated and hurt feelings of having taken offense at their “cluelessness.”

I’ll give you a brief, real-life example from my life, maybe I’ve offered this before, it happened about 13 years ago as I was leaving my spath marriage. One of my cousins who had always had a wonderful marriage and had always told me over the years well-meaningly, “20years, you have to understand that marriage is HARD WORK. David and I work at our marriage EVERY DAY. you need to keep trying!!!”

So for the first time ever, instead of thinking to myself, “you know, she’s right. Of course marriage is not supposed to be easy! I do need to remember my vows and keep trying. I do need to forgive. I need to keep in mind that all of us married people go through this “hard work” and so I shouldn’t give up — it is supposed to be hard!”

So — like I said for the first time ever — this time it occurred to me to ask her some questions, and I said, “Barb, do you mind giving me an example of this ‘hard work’ you do with David?” and she very openly and gladly gave me an example of what she considered to be ‘hard work.’ My reaction was like the floor dropped out from under me. I had assumed that our ‘hard work’ was the same! All this time. She had a loving husband and her example was that one time, when they had first gotten married, he had pushed her to have sex but she was tired having been working 8 hours on her feet and just wanted a warm bath and bed, and thought he should realize this, and she said, “please don’t pressure me in this particular way — I’m just super tired right now” and he reacted by saying, “ohmigosh, I’m really sorry — I didn’t realize! I won’t do it this way again. We can figure it out together.” And he NEVER DID IT AGAIN. (I’m not going into personal details — it is just that they had a bit of some “hard work of marriage” right there — and it was so pale in comparison to me — especially the part about her husband obviously caring, getting it, being willing to use this opportunity to get to know his wife better, to improve the marriage, and never repeating the offensive behavior ever again. No “cycle of abuse” there!)

I was so floored that all that time I had thought the abuse by my husband (mostly verbal, emotional but also some physical and sexual) was NORMAL HARD WORK OF MARRIAGE and I was supposed to keep trying. I mean, I had never heard of abuse other than those low-life wife-beating types, and my profile didn’t fit. I had never defined it for myself that way.

That was the day I stopped trying. SO — I just mean — sometimes asking questions will bring surprising and helpful answers and lessons. My lesson that day was that not everyone’s experience is equivalent. It was not my job to enlighten my cousin, but she certainly enlightened me, without her meaning to or realizing what she did.

I subsequently learned that it was not my sole responsibility for my troubled marriage, not my sole responsibility to fix it, to be the one always taking the blame and doing all the “hard work.” I learned that I don’t have the ability to do that. (and no one does).

To this day, my cousin still has a loving marriage and still cannot grasp what I’ve been through and she is a bit judging of me for the divorce, and I can’t help her with that POV. How can she know? All she has ever known is her own loving marriage. But I love her, she taught me a great deal, without realizing.


20years, I hope that Donna makes your response into a posted article. Seriously.

Thank you for this and brightest blessings


Truthspeak, I’m glad you found it helpful! I learn so much here from all of you…



Yeah, that was the best ever! So much to learn from your post. Your cousin’s marriage was a “normal” “work at it” type of marriage. That is how marriage is supposed to be. Fortunately for HER, she didn’t have a clue as to what an abusive situation can be. It’s a pity that she judges you for the divorce when she has no idea what you experienced. This is a perfect lesson as to why we should NEVER judge anyone. Some people keep things secret and we may never know what they go through.

This kind of reminds me of Adam’s mom, Nancy. I am reading that she is being forgotten in all the memorials. To me, that is very sad. She was murdered by her own child! And we have NO idea what she was dealing with trying to raise a child like that. Very pitiful.


Louise, I am struck by that, too. This morning on the news I heard something about “26 memorials erected to the 20 children and adults at the school who were killed….” and my first thought was, what about Adam’s mother (the first victim)? I CANNOT judge her. I don’t know enough about her. And I mean that in the deepest possible sense. Who are WE to think that we KNOW enough to be able to dishonor her in death like that, by ignoring her? Is anyone’s life or death worth more or less than anyone else’s?

(I have to say, I even feel that way about Adam. That is just my emotion/feelings, as I’m receiving them — simultaneously with the heartwrenching sorrowI feel over all innocents killed that day. As a mother of a son who is sometimes difficult, I know that I could be judged as being a bad parent — and I HAVE been judged. I just think we are all children of God and I have not seen convincing evidence of what it was that “went wrong” in Adam’s case, in order for me to come to any conclusions about what was in his heart/mind, or his mother’s, etc).



Agreed!!! I am the only one I know so far who has thought of Adam, too. Even at my church, they lighted 27 candles and spaced them across the stage. I thought…27? I guess I can understand that they did not want to honor the man who killed all those children, but he was a soul, too. I guess I am just an extremely compassionate person. I don’t know many people who think the way I do, but 20years, it sounds like you do, too! I mean, I hate that he killed all those children…it’s absolutely HORRIBLE, but in a spirtual sense, he had a soul, too and obviously was deeply troubled to do something so horrid. I have to wonder what happens to him??



Yes. I have found so far that no one I personally have spoken with, sees this quite like I am seeing it. Which makes the processing of it all the more difficult. (so, thank you for being someone I can talk to about it!).

Mostly if this event comes up, people say, “that horrible mother!” “that despicable monster who shot all those children!” and all I can see is the seething blame, which is different from anger, and I think it must be due to my own experiences over the years, but particularly recently with the CPS investigation of me, and also all of the blame I’ve been on the receiving end of, and the lessons I learned from that…. this harsh condemnation I is palpable to me, and I find it sickening and I mean that almost literally. I really can feel it and it feels very ugly and unloving.

I don’t make myself feel these things in any particular way. The feelings just come. And I feel deep sorrow about the entire situation, and I do see (at this time) Adam as someone I’m not in a position to judge.

It is hard to watch the world turning this event into something symbolic, where these individual people/souls are encapsulated into brief sketches of “who they were” (or who we have decided to think that they were), and then left stuck there, like bugs on pins in a display, where we attach the meaning to their lives, whatever we have decided (collectively, it seems) that meaning should be. I think it treads on the sanctity of each life, yes also including Nancy’s and Adam’s.

I think it is possible to hold the entire event in a place in our mind, to admit that we do not really know anything about these people, so who are we to decide who they were. And bless each soul. (but that is my perspective and I know it is not shared by everyone).

But if I turn the focus onto myself, I can see that this is an evolving way for me to be. I used to be very judgmental. I didn’t mean anything bad by it. I thought I was right to look for where to point my finger of blame.

It has taken me a very long time and many experiences to get to this place where it is the blame/judgment itself which I now see as wrong and harmful to all concerned. That is not to say that I wish to judge the judgers. This is a tricky thing! And also not to say that I am perfect (certainly not LOL! still a work in progress… I hope…)

Thank you for that post on the hard work in marriage. OMG, can I resonate with that!

I think that people should stop referring to marriage as work. It’s extremely misleading and spathy IMO. Did a spath come up with that to get us to “work harder” at the marriage?

Part of the “logic” I used to stay with my spath was that I had to work at it and that this was normal.

Why should being with a loved one feel like work? Being kind is not work, it just is. Being considerate, is that work? Well for a spath I guess it is, but it never felt like that to me, until I met the spath. Then, it was always me trying to understand him, meet his needs, love him and prove that love to him. It began to feel like work when I got nothing in return, but then I read that marriage was work, so I accepted it.



Yes, that “marriage is hard work — in a good/strong marriage you work hard on it every day!” thing really misled me.

Since my marriage, I’ve had the opportunity to be in 3 other relationships. (see how I put that?)

I have learned that in a good relationship, one of the main things to do is be yourself and allow the other person to be himself. I know that my initial spark or impulse (when I met my spath husband) was to sparkle and be myself! And appreciate him, as he was (his own sparkly self!). the thing is, I really WAS being myself — but he was NOT.

After awhile, his mask came off and he started looking at me with disgust whenever I’d have my “sparkle” on. He would criticize it. I became afraid to sparkle. But at the same time, I wanted him to sparkle again. And so I shifted gradually to a focus of avoiding his derision and disgust (because it was so painful to me) at all costs (including my sparkle) and trying to find any way I could BE that would help bring forth his smile and look of delight in me. As time wore on, there was no more delight to be had. I tried on every outfit, every dance, every song, every expression in my repertoire. What a lot of WORK!!!

Trust me, I frequently employed the “direct approach” which was me, being honest, saying “honey I really love you, but you seem so unhappy with me these days. What’s going on, and what can we do about it?” and that approach brought nothing but ANGER from him.

The more I was myself — the more punished I was. And punishment is extremely painful. This is how you start to fold up pieces of yourself, to put that sparkle in a box in the back of your closet, and reveal it maybe mostly only to your children, or to your best friend (who has no idea how much HARD WORK your marriage is — because you never tell her! Because you don’t know….)

The more I am myself, the less he likes me. Huh???

I had had no awareness that people like that could exist. So I kept trying to look for explanations. Trying to change myself. Because marriage is supposed to be hard work. It is so sad to me that I spent 7 years of my life trying so hard and sincerely to do the “hard work of marriage,” when it was absolutely hopeless. I had no idea it was hopeless.

Sigh. SO GLAD to be free of that now. I am sad sometimes to think of myself, weeping in the back of my closet, next to the box of my sparkle (maybe?) locked away, tears NOT for him or my children to see. i didn’t want to scare the children. I didn’t want to be so raw, so MYSELF, in front of him — I knew the reaction to my tears would be “wah wah wah there you go, playing the VICTIM again, OH I am so tired of you and your whining…” (eye roll, quacky-duck motion with the hands to show that I’m just flapping my gums for no purpose whatsoever).

And my question to myself I could never figure out: He wants me to be his wife — WHY???


Thank you for bringing this perspective to LF. I have evolved my philosophies which include knowing the difference between blaming, judging, discerning, and holding people accountable. I observe that too many times, people judge by stating the behavior and THEN deciding the thought process of the person they judged. Obviously I think that oversteps logic. Until we find a way to live in another person’s brain, we can not know their thought process.

I see nothing wrong with holding Adam’s mom accountable for what she did, BUT NOTHING FURTHER. I use my life experience as the rationale for why NOTHING FURTHER. I have had a difficult time with my dearest love, my daughter. And I tell her, if I knew what your personality was going to be, and what you identified as your core needs, I would have made different choices. But that is only known in hindsight, so perfect mom? No, I wanted to be a perfect mom b/c I LOVED her that much, but I was not able to give her perfection. So I concentrated on what I wanted her to know: that WHO she was would be more important than what she looked like (which she interpreted as me never thinking she was pretty, she thought I saw her as ugly and rejected by me -breaks my heart that my baby felt rejected.).

Extrapolating my experience, I have seen parents take their insecure kids to Karate. I have seen parents try to take THEIR skill, and teach it to their kid so their kid can have pride in accomplishment. SO, if Adams mom taught him to shoot, do you honestly think she did it to train a future mass murderer? THis woman who by all I read about, devoted herself to caring for her dysfunctional son? She groomed him to murder? NO. I do not think so.

I hold her accountable for having guns, not for what happened. I believe if she had known the outcome, she would have made LOTS of different choices. She was murdered, she failed to assess the point of no return for her son. (I did the same, I failed to assess the point of danger for myself and was nearly murdered, I was saved ONLY by a fluke.) How many people are murdered b/c they lived with their killer and failed to assess the point of no return?

Additionally, I know that if she didn’t have guns, he would have gotten them elsewhere. In fact, as I understand it, he tried in the weeks before to buy guns and got turned down. From that, I conclude she kept him from having access and he found a way to circumvent that.

Adams rampage is a terrible tragedy. I don’t trivialize a bit of it. But I do believe his mother was part of that tragedy, I don’t believe her to be complicit. She failed to predict when she would completely lose control of him. And I think it very sad to see all this blamed heaped on her, and I don’t think the blame to be emotionally healthy but a judgement fanned by the flames of the media. I wish society could learn the difference between blame and accountability. And as a mom who also would have made different choices for my difficult child, I feel for her and think she should be including in the list of murdered victims.

Thanks Again 20 years, I agreed with your perspective. I just added my 2 cents, and 3 cents more.

Ox Drover

I just ordered “Far From the Tree: Parents, Children and the Search for Identity.” Which is the story of Dylan Kybold’s parents and how they were made out casts because of what he did. I don’t think if I remember correctly And I may not, that Dylan was the psychopath that Eric was, but more of a follower.

There are no “support groups” for the parents of criminal monsters, and in a way Nancy Lanza got the “easy” way out…she didn’t have to face what would have been done to her, or will be done to her memory.

In my letter to the parole board, the final draft, I used the focus of “I am Adam Lanza’s mother” and my attorney said that it was the BEST protest letter he had ever read. I DO KNOW WHAT IT IS TO BE Dylan Kybold or Adam Lanza’s mother, though my son didn’t killl as many people as they did, one is more than enough.

Every nurturing parent who does their best to raise their child to respect the laws of this land and to be kind to others suffers the same horror at not having been able to do something more. At not having been able to FIX a child that maybe for years we knew was “not right” in some way. I knew patrick was not right, not moral, not caring, and was selfish and uncontrollable, but I never dreamed in my worst night mares that he would KILL…I failed to realize even after he HAD KILLED that there was no conscience there, no remorse.

But now that I know, I am doing all I can to keep him where he will not be able to hurt me, my other sons or society. I hope it works, and I hope that my letter and the letters of my friends and relatives will move the board to keep him incarcerated.

The REPEATED strain of having to keep on with this “essay contest” every 3 years or so…is unnecessary, because he got “life” that should do it. He should DO LIFE, but according to the laws in effect, every few years we will have to repeat this protest no matter what it costs us to do so. Costs in terms of money and energy and emotional pain.


OxD, that’s what I’ve always been curious about: what do parents of monsterous offspring DO?! I don’t mean “How do they warn society,” and all of that…I mean, WHERE do they find support?

I do not believe that any conscientious parent brings a child into the world with the express purpose of producing a threat to society. And, when that offspring is clearly developing into a danger, there is no remedy and NO support for that (or, those) parent(s). In fact, most attempts to reach out result in a parent being ordered into “parenting courses” because they’re unable to control their child. Right. Let’s set these kids in “Time Out” and so forth.

The level of frustration and helplessness is indescribable. And, any attempts to discuss my eldest son’s behaviors and absolute defiance was met with blank stares – even from my own family members. “Well, you have to teach him better,” was the typical response. Well, okay – I was living in an extremely abusive environment with the son’s father, so I left the father in hopes that I could affect changes once this kid was away from the abuser. Not so. The son acted-out in even more extreme ways as per the trauma-bond with his father and his father’s manipulations.

There is no support for parents of children who are dangerous. There isn’t. Not from Social Services, not from the Courts, not from the community, and not even from the psych communities.

Brightest blessings


Truthspeak, wow.

This (Lovefraud) community is the only place I have ever found support for this type of thing.

I know that all of us here are brought here by the shared experience of a relationship with a sociopath. And that we are each in different stages of growth and recovery from that.

It is SO LONELY to be the one on the receiving end of the “blank stare.” Even more so if it is your friends and family.

It is also hard to have BEEN one of those blank-staring people in the past, to know that you have been there, to understand that viewpoint, to respect the kindness and well-meaning cluelessness, and then your life changes — you have the sociopath relationship, you have the difficult child…..

And you are NOT the person you were, because of it. But the others have not had a sociopath experience (walked in your moccasins) — bless them. And so, not only don’t they understand, they don’t even seem to want to try to understand. Instead, they judge you as being misguided, crazy, or wrong.

I have tried (recently) to share my experiences and what I am learning from them with family/friends who have not had the types of experiences I have had. Why have I done this? Actually, it is mostly because there is now this GULF between us, and I feel such loneliness because of it — I am trying to close that gap, to share myself in hopes that they understand me and, once understanding, they accept. and, once accepting, they realize that we see things differently and that’s OK. They don’t have to judge me.

But that’s not happening. So am I now regretting that I have tried to share?

it’s such a dilemma! To keep parts of myself hidden so that I spare myself the pain of being on the receiving end of the blank stare or pointing finger of blame and judgement. Should I just be pretending to be just like them (just like I was)?

Can I get a new set of friends? I suppose. But I’m not young. I just mean, there is a long history with these people. I don’t write people off. I can be friends with them! if only they could accept me as I am.

What about family? Should I pretend with them? It’s not like we don’t have lots in common. It’s just that I have these different lenses on now, so we perceive things differently.

I just feel sad. Maybe it’s the time of year. But it’s like a door opened, I got shoved through it, I looked back at the chasm I crossed and know that now that I’m here, I can never go back there — not even if I wanted to. I cannot unsee something, once I have seen it. My family and friends are still over there on the other side of that chasm. Can I bring them with me? They don’t want to come. Heck, I didn’t want to go, either. I got SHOVED.

Does this make sense? I get abstract when I am moody. 🙂

But specifically speaking to your experience, Truthspeak, you are not alone and you are absolutely right. There is no understanding and support for parents of dangerous children. Only judgment. No actual help.

And if the problem is not recognized for what it is and taken seriously (judgement and blame is an easy bandaid solution which sounds real good, like you are “taking action!” — but doesn’t solve the problem).

Well, I’m grateful for the people here who get it. This is definitely not a lonely place. 🙂


BTW, I should add that the family/friends hear my stories, they view me with sympathy for what I went through, and see me as traumatized beyond hope, that it has addled my brain somehow so that I am seeing things “differently,” yes, but differently in a mental illness kind of way, the paranoid nutjob way, or that I have “trust issues.”


I dwell inside of me, and I know that I have never been saner in my life.

Trauma does cause damage, but I am one tough cookie, and this has made me stronger, more compassionate, and more discerning.

Yes, so frustrating that they interpret me as damaged, just because I now see things differently from them.

I know that it is too upsetting for a person who is anchored in their worldview to consider alternate points of view that threaten that. This is an ego problem. I know this because I’ve been through this type of shattering more than once (NO FUN!) but on the other hand, I learned from going through the experience that it is just a transformation — it is not that YOU fall apart.

But I guess if a person has never gone through something like that, I need to remember how it felt to me, then they will put up such strong defenses to avoid these ego-shattering inconvenient truths.

It’s still lonely.


Your words are so poignant for me. Yes, you see things differently after an spath. I say, “My husband taught me things about the dregs of humanity that no one would ever want to know.”

I, too, feel So lonely. Even though LF exists, and TG it does, LF can highlight my lonliness as well.

I thought I met a friend on here. Only that friend decided to NEGATIVELY interpret my words of an opinion I posted and I got caught in that same trap as I had with my spath husband; I tried to explain my thinking, my thought process, my backstory… and it didn’t matter. She kept going from what I was very willing to be a open book about, and TELLING ME, DICTATING To me, what my mind was thinking. WIth her insistent words, I realized I did not have a new friend at all b/c a FRIEND would have listened to me and I felt a new level of lonliness and invalidation and I spiraled into new depression. (to be fair, I think my LF nemisis had something to do with that b/c my newly found friend was using the same language as my LF nemisis, and I feel confirmed in that b/c they are now good buddies). The good news is that b/c I survived my spath, I knew the path out of depression, but the lonliness remains. The knowledge that even a respected LF member gets to pronounce judgement on me, the same judgement that my spath did, that I don’t know my own thinking. Makes me sad to even think of it. And esp b/c it is Christmas, the time of connecting with others, it’s very hard for me b/c all I feel is how very alone I am.

This is just to validate your feelings, that I think I can understand those feelings. And to tell you, yes you DO think differently. But not b/c you are damaged. Rather, you are TRANSFORMED by FIRE. YOU KNOW things that others would rather not know, about the dregs of humanity. I don’t blame people for not wanting to know the horrors that I now know. And you are right, it’s still lonely. My advice is to focus on connecting through Love. I have found it is still lonely, but not as painful. Love is the only thing that matters.

May Peace and Joy Come to You,

Ox Drover

Some parents who have INSURANCE THAT WILL PAY FOR MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES are given “support” from the mental health community….like “Just give him this medication and all will be well” Well, what if he is 17 and REFUSES to take it, are you going to send 3 big men over to my house 3 times a day to poke it down his throat?

Well, just take him to counseling>…again, how are you going to make him participate?

Well just keep him away from street drugs? Yea, how are you gonna do that? Lock him in the basement in chains?

Well, yes, of course Mr and Mrs. Parent, I realize you have done all the above things as well as you can but you must TRY HARDER TO COMMUNICATE. Yea, LIKE WITH A ROCK!

I had a patient whose OPPOSITIONALLY DEFIANT TEENAGE DAUGHTER Bit her so severely I actually had to tack some of the bites partly closed though normally you don’t sew up human bites….and I got SQUAT from CPS, they told me that if the mother left the home (over a weekend) and left te 16 year old daughter there alone they would charge the mother…so I suggested until we could get something done with the law, that thhe mother park her car in the front yard,, LOCK THE DOORS and spend the sub zero weather there at least where the girl couldn’t get at her. Finally on Monday we got the law involved and the girl was put in juvy…what happened after that I do not know.

I know when patrick was first acting out, gun at school, stealling etc. that the counselor treated me like I was some kind of horrible parent and gave all kinds of sympathy to my poor mistreated 17 year old who had to put up with such a horrible mother. One how had made him clean house, wouldn’t let him roam the streets at night, wanted him to quit stealing and workk in school. BADDDDDD Mommie! Me!

Later when I worked at thhe inpatient psych facility mostly with teenagers who were on their way to being psychopaths or other personality disordered individuals, I saw the pain on the family’s faces when their daughter would hark one back and SPIT in their faces during “therapy.”

I dealt with the 12 year old 6’2″ rapist (x 3) who had NO remorse and no conscience and didn’t fear anything except over powering FORCE in the moment. No impulse control except the threat of being taken to the floor by 2-3 big mental health techs.

I saw the pain in the parents’ faces, and even though this was just after Patrick had killed Jessica, I realized there are parents with kids worse than mine. I also realized that the mental health profession is failing us all.

you described the trauma very well. It is a transformation that creates a chasm between us and the ones who haven’t experienced it. I think, too, that the spaths KNOW this and intended it. Their intent is to isolate us. I think it’s because they, themselves, have no connection to humanity, so they want us to feel the same: alone. They thought we would hide in shame and go off to commit suicide.

Fortunately, they did not count on the internet to connect us to each other. We found each other and we truly are kindred spirits.

I wrote a blog article about the metamorphosis from a caterpillar to a butterfly being very much like the transformation we are going through. I think that right now we are still in the chrysalis stage, hanging upside down, seeing the world from a new perspective. This stage is not without its dangers. We are still transforming and things can go wrong. Finally, breaking out from the chrysalis, has to be done alone. The butterfly needs to push against the shell. This pushing forces fluids from it’s abdomen into the wings and gives them strength. Without this action, the butterfly will never fly.

Here’s a funny cartoon that reminds me of our transformation.


I have a friend I have known for 45 years (imagine!) and she loves and cares about me. She tried hard to understand when I went through my divorce from my spath husband, and I love her for trying. But she couldn’t understand. So we drifted a bit. She didn’t understand the experience of trauma.

But then she suddenly lost her husband and found herself widowed. Trauma. We have been able to reconnect and share better, not that I would ever wish widowhood on anyone, especially sudden widowhood in a happy marriage. But she understands trauma now. I don’t have to try to explain anymore. Even though our experiences are different, she no longer judges me.

She didn’t understand before, either, how hard it is to be a single parent. Now she finds herself in that “club.”

Anyway, this is all very hard. The loneliness part. You are right, Katy — thank you for reminding me that Love is the only thing that matters.

And I liked your cartoon, Skylar — thanks. 🙂

Oxy, I know that the recent events have been triggering. I am being triggered, too, by some aspects of all of this I haven’t quite figured out yet. I know that we will be OK. 🙂

Ox Drover

20 years “triggered by some aspects of all this” Please clarify WHAT aspects of WHAT triggers? My situation? Your situation?

Yea, odd things trigger us at the oddest of times. I am so anxious to get this letter writing campaign over with and to quit worrying about the “essay contest” part of it all. I finally got my own letter written and will not change it again. My attorney said it is THE best protest letter he has ever read so I have to take that as his approval and that it is a good one.

I’m anxious to just turn the results over to God and my lawyer and to quit trying to think of who else I might persuade to write a letter. For those people who doon’t know the full story, it is stressful for me to have to explain it to them, for those who DO know the story, the FEW people (“friends”?) I EXPECTED to write letters who REFUSED to blew me backwards like a land mine. I am anxious each time I ask someone to write. I’m tired of the anxiety. The triggers.

Next week I am going to the DA and sheriff in my local county who know about thhe Trojan HOrse and ask if THEY will write protest letters. Can’t go to the judge because he is also my egg donor’s attorney! LOL I think it is a legal conflict of interest to allow a judge to have private legal clients but here the judge job is only part time so that is what we get. IN-JUSTICE.

Ox Drover

Great cartoon, Sky, how about THIS ONE


I wrote to validate your feelings of lonliness, and to share my bigger perspective… that even on LF, other posters can be invalidating and cruel (where lonliness can feel ever most sharp). Dominating posters can excuse themselves as entitled to be dominating, they forget their humanity b/c as wounded people, they see their particular circumstances and pain and can be numbed to the suffering of others. They get wrapped up in their opinion as being right, in dominating, in making declarative conclusions, that Listening to the travails of others become second place to themselves.

The fact is, while most times people step up and try to be helpful, LF does not Guarantee validation. It is, however, a place where SOMEONE will have experienced the same as you did, even if they aren’t posting, YOUR story will touch them. AND if anyone experiences being targeted like I have been and feels overwhelmed by it, gently remove yourself from the interactions, but continue reading. I was fortunate to have done MUCH interspection and healing before I found LoveFraud. If I had come here when I was in my worst emotional state, the attacks by my nemisis and the invalidation by my new “friend” would have totally devasted an already basketcase Me. I would have expected better from those who had experienced an spath. I would have given that nemesis too much power, the power to condemn. I don’t know what that would have done to my emotional state, when I escaped from my abuser, I was pretty fragile.

It’s a good lesson for ALL of us. We should give NO ONE the power to TELL YOU what you think or what you should feel. No matter how new or how fragile we are, REMEMBER….the first person to love, to show gentle grace, to have compassion for, to nurture and find ways to be kind…. is ourselves.

Oxy, a little humor goes a long way to dispel anxiety.

Too bad that I couldn’t see the “lack of empathy” in my spath when I first met him.

In the end, he saw lack of empathy in me. He said, “You have no EMPATHY!!” LOL! projection at its finest.


It does not matter if someone on LF “likey” you or not. Your view stilll counts! Lots of views and opinions..all up for review. NO ONE has the right to say what is OK and not OK….other than writing that letter for Oxy…I’m done with LF. God Bless you.


; }


Thank you for your words. Even though you say you are done with LF, I hope you will continue to monitor and read. When you have something to say, esp something that NEEDS to be said, I hope you will post. It is why I came back. B/c I have something to say, a different perspective, and I didn’t see anyone else saying it.
Best, Katy


Oxy, as for what seems to be triggering me. It is a whole bunch of stuff, I think, and all jumbled up and I’m trying to detangle it and figure it out. I know that I will. So I’m not in a state of despair, but sure this is temporary bleak feelings, and they will pass.

Seems to be a mix of: the condemnation of the shooter’s mother (by some) and also the shunning of her (by many). I relate to that because of my experience with the CPS condemnation of me, and also because I am a single mother and love my kids so fiercely and want to be the best possible mom for each of them. And I always keep trying. If something doesn’t work — I examine and try something else, not willy nilly but working very hard to be a smart mom, too. It is painful to see/hear criticism and condemnation of mothers doing what is often a thankless and very tough job — we don’t quit on our sometimes very difficult kids.

(and sometimes we do have to finally realize if we have a messed up kid)

So, it’s the judgment I am hearing all around me in the news these days. Also the focus on the guns is quite upsetting. I’m not trying to engage in a gun control debate here. I will just say that it is triggering for me, apparently, to witness this gun control debate. I did actually engage in a debate over the past week with a friend who lives in Europe, and I ended up very unexpectedly on the receiving end of a bunch of self-righteous condemnation of “Americans” (I am the symbol of all Americans to this person, all of a sudden) and no matter what I said in defense of us Americans, he had withering criticism at the ready.

Because this was a “friend,” I kept trying to “explain.” (the sum of it was what idiots we Americans are because we “love our guns” and cling to the second amendment and how stupid can we be not to ban guns, what will it take, and how dare we, we are all to blame for this heinous massacre…)

I felt quite honestly at the receiving end of a very pointed finger of blame. I was trying to be a “voice of reason” and I could not get my message across. The more I tried, the more it became clear that he would not or could not listen to me. He cherry picked things that I said, didn’t answer certain questions I had (for example, the Norway massacre, Switzerland), and seemed hell bent on proving HIS points. Not listening.

So, that is the basis of where some of my recent Lovefraud comments have come from. It is about people (collectively or individually) deciding that they KNOW what is in a person’s mind/heart, and then deciding that they have the right to judge that person. (and probably are incorrect in their assumptions about what is in that person’s heart/mind in the first place! Or — maybe correct — but the point is they do not KNOW but they THINK they do).

It is like — well, hate to say this, but it is Christmastime after all — a symbol of someone who gets to be the recipient of all of our collective blame, and how it works when we place that blame onto someone else, it feels like we are washed clean/absolved. It is so tempting to project that hatred somewhere.

It is quite another thing to be on the receiving end of it.

And oh, so interesting to know that the projector of hatred actually believes himself to be a kind, loving, caring person who is so justifiably outraged at a horrific event that placing the blame on ME as the symbol of all that is wrong with America is not a wrong thing to do.

This person was my friend.

I feel a bit lonely today.

I know there are lessons for me in this. I’m waiting. 🙂

Ox Drover

20 Years,

I definitely can relate on many levels to your feelings about all that you talked about.

Unfortunately, trying to be the “voice of reason” doesn’t work if a person’s mind is made up and won’t let the facts “confuse the issue.”

I used to be a HARD ASS DEATH PENALTY believer…but a friend and I debated the issue and though my mind was MADE UP I did listen to reason and I changed my mind….why? Because there have been DOZENS of INNOCENT people let out of prison and off death row by DNA evidence….and I would rather 1000 guilty go free than one innocent person be executed.

I AM for the “three strikes” laws where a career criminal is locked up for repeated felony convictions. In fact, I think it should be used more…it is a fact that 25% of all inmates right now (that’s about 500,000) are psychopaths *(score 30+ on PCL-R) and the AVERAGE score of all inmates is 22…so, yea, lock’em up and throw away the key…but at least if someone is in prison and is proven innocent they can be let out.

Recently in my state 3 men, who were kids when they were wrongly convicted of killing 3 little boys (West Memphis Three) they still got a raw deal but they have their LIVES.

So being willing to openly debate something is good, but just ARGUING to prove yourself “right” is not.


You raise a good point. We may be certain that our logic is correct but another factor mitigates the outcome.

For instance, I am pro-death penalty. I believe that certain people, by their crimes, have ASKED to be put to death. BUT…. I know that Houston has a problem with lab tests. That people have been convicted on the basis of those lab tests and THE TESTS WERE WRONG.

Recently there was a man who was convicted of setting the fire that burned his children. And he got the death penalty. Yet… b/c of the lab tests, I believe he may have been wrongly convicted. Too late now, the sentence was carried out.

SO, while I believe in the death penalty, the fact that Houston has an unreliable lab means that NO ONE should be put to death until that problem is resolved. The police department has had SO much corruption that they have validated my opinion that there is NO SUCH THING AS JUSTICE. FYI Over 6000 rape kits not processed. Anyone see any reason to report a rape? I don’t.

The more a person has a stake in a certain viewpoint, the more they are closed to any other view. As an attorney once said, Don’t confuse me with the facts’. Your friend didn’t want logic, facts, and truths. He wanted whatever it took to make him feel safe and accepted by someone whose opinion mattered more to him than yours. Sorry that happened to you. Sometimes we have friends that we share SOME beliefs but not all beliefs. Wait three months for cooler heads to prevail and I bet you’ll have a different conversation.

Best, Katy


Dear Katy,
well you can have a ‘friend’ on LF and all the while they are building a ‘file’ on you. Your life believes are then used against you aka ‘grey rock’ but I dont give sheeet!

My friend is no longer my friend because of my beliefs. Oh, Well, I don’t blame her. They where strange to her. I still love her and wish her the best,and you too. Thank you for you response.

Ox Drover


Thank you for the letter of support for my son’s parole protest.

I’m sorry you are leaving LF and sorry that you feel the need to do so.

LF is a public board and there are people here in all stages of healing (or not healing as the case may be) and people with some serious mental health issues as well. However, that said, there are a vast majority of LF bloggers who are just like “us” and are doing their best to heal from the devastation of interacting with a psychopath. Sometimes in the course of healing we are raw.

Right after I came to LF over 5 years ago, a person that I think now was probably a BPD “flamed” me and Aloha Traveler. I was very raw and very vulnerable to being attacked. I was so afraid I had hurt someone’s feelings, that I was going to leave LF. Donna took charge of the situation and “came to the rescue” of Aloha and me, and I stayed. I am EVER so glad that I did.

Through the years I have been “flamed” a few more times by various people who are long gone off LF either because they got so out of hand they were banned for attacking me and/or others, or because they just left of their own accord.

Letting people control you by making you leave LF is giving them the upper hand. I hope you and anyone else who feels that they have been “flamed” will reconsider and think about staying here…at least as a lurker if not participating or posting. If you have a problem with someone’s remarks and they are obviously out of line, use the “report abusive comment” link. If their comment isn’t to that level, then just ignore them.

lesson learned


Obviously I can’t tell you what to do, but I’m grey rocked when I come here too, lol! But that’s okay, I still come and read the articles and if something really hits me with a post, occasionally, I’ll say something. I don’t give it that much weight. I hope you don’t either because regardless, this is a great place to learn and there are many excellent articles that can help you wherever you are in process. Just grey rock back. 🙂 It’s really not a big deal. Don’t hand your power over to others.


Every time I see something here written about psychopathic children, I feel compelled to post. Other than writing a recent blog post on my blog about my son, Adam (ugh, ironic!), in response to this mother’s post, this is the only place I have felt safe to share about him. I felt everything in what that mother was saying about her son.

I feel so much for you and your situation with Patrick. It’s hard for me to read through these, as I get knots in my stomach.

I think the MOST difficult thing about having a disordered child is screeching from the rooftops to ANYONE who would listen (once you’re aware that your kid is NOT NORMAL) and going UNHEARD.

When my eldest son was little, he began to have ear infections. Really NASTY ear infections. To make a long story short, he was put on antibiotics on and off over a course of YEARS, while I, of course, SCREECHED for a specialist and was IGNORED because someone with 12 years of education “knew” more than I did about what was going on with my son. FINALLY, someone heard me and we took him to a specialist for his infected and repeated issues with ruptured ear drums. They decided to put tubes in (duh), but they soon fell out about four months after the surgery. The infections started again. Screeching again. Specialist AGAIN. Come to find out my son had a birth defect that resulted in very SHORT eustachian tubes. I don’t have to explain to a nurse what that means. Unfortunately, there was scar tissue damage. A hearing test was done, he was 40% deaf in one ear and 60% in the other….

Sometimes, it pays to listen to the parent when they’re screeching.

And when you have a psychopathic child, it’s in everyone’s best interest to listen to the parent, rather than demonize and assume the PARENT has the issue and not the child, because as I learned from my son, he’s a GREAT bullshitter. A MASTER MANIPULATOR. For a long time, i didn’t want to see this. I enabled him, because I loved him and wanted to believe he wasn’t what I KNEW he was. I KNEW it. When I put him into drug treatment and begged for a psyche eval, what he got was a alcohol/drug eval, and skated and bullshitted everyone right through the program and GRADUATED. The day of graduation, he was GONE and back at it. Nearly a year clean and his behavior had not changed. In fact, what had changed was that he learned how to manipulate the SYSTEM better.

I saw many other kids in the drug program make genuine recoveries. It’s easy to see who they are. They work hard, on themselves and their recoveries. My son MANIPULATED all the way through his. He had them convinced I was the problem and not him. How could this be the assumption when I was SCREECHING about his BEHAVIOR? A list of what he was DOING? WTF???

Ironically, this was also where I knew I had to emotionally detach from him. That what I saw in what he was doing, is really who he is. It further isolates a parent when therapists, or drug court/addiction treatment will not listen. I let them know that the addiction part of it was just the tip of the iceberg. I think we all know that psychopathy can occur and often does, with co morbid conditions. Unfortunately, it’s the conditions MOST OBVIOUS that are treated, without the benefit of the most dangerous being looked at realistically. It’s frustrating for me, because my son has victims that he has parasitically lived off of and has wounded with many lies, distortions and manipulations and it means not a damned thing to him. THAT is very painful.

There is nothing anyone will do until he gets “back into the system” REALLY??? Well, what the hell does that mean? Before he loses it in a blinding rage and murders his girlfriend? Or kills someone in a drug deal gone bad? REALLY? Is that what it’s going to take?? THEN what the hell will they tell me? Do I get to say “I told you so!” while someone is lying in the morgue at my son’s hands?

Yep, essentially, that’s what it means. I pray to God that when my son inevitably and most assuredly winds up in the system, that it doesn’t involve the taking of the life of someone else.

I’m in a strange place with all of this now. My son turns eighteen here in a couple of weeks. He’s already scammed two families. I have talked with one of them. It’s very, VERY painful to see their pain at what Adam has done to them. And such a helpless feeling because i can’t FIX IT. And they know if they press charges because he duped them out of cash, well, that’s a go nowhere situation too.

Joyce you’re very lucky your son is in prison. I say that as one mom of a psychopath to another. I wish my son was as it would keep our community safe from him, even if his “crimes” (no proof of course, he’s become well versed in hiding), are “petty” at this point, he still HURTS people. I hope your efforts, and that of others, help keep him where he belongs. I understand exactly how you feel.

For our family, well, we go on, but there is always that thought in the back of our minds about when that cop might show up at our door. Will my son be dead? Or will someone else be?

I hate that he has victims. And I wish the justice system, or mental health professionals would listen to a parent that doesn’t carry a degree. If we’re aware, we KNOW our children. Many psychopaths are NEVER diagnosed. If we can’t assess it for ourselves, how the hell do we protect ourselves or others?

It’s hard not to see that blonde haired little boy in the back of my mind and in the depths of my heart. UGH, so painful.

Anyway, I hope things work out the way you hope they will.


lesson learned.
I hear your heartache. I have had my problems with my daughter. Such an adorable little girl. When they are little, we dream “will they be a doctor” or even “won’t she make beautiful grandbabies”. I currently have a boundry with my daughter that so far she has not crossed. Yet, I have had to change my dream for her, now I dream that she does not have any children, and that she does no one any lasting harm. It’s very isolating. Oxy was my model for how to bear the pain. Take care and know there are LF members who will not scapegoat you for the choices of your beloved son.

Best, Katy

lesson learned


Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Has your daughter been diagnosed with a mental health issue?

Boundaries, I’ve discovered, are critical in dealing with these our kids as adults. I understand what you’re saying about your daughter. I have a daughter who is borderline, but she has children. I worry for my grandchildren constantly. I’m very careful NOT to go places that set her off. It’s uncomfortable “walking on eggshells” around her, but to be able to love on them is worth the risk. So far so good, as I’ve laid out boundaries with her, calmly and firmly. So far so good. The trick is not to see her so much, but to be able to have a relationship with her to where I can see my grandchildren and love on them as much as possible.

It must be painful for you too, Katy, especially if you want grandchildren but know that it’s best that it not happen. And you would be RIGHT about that. It’s VERY difficult to walk a fine line with my daughter at times when she’s in one of her “moods”. She’s removed my grandchildren from me before when I have not “behaved” the way she wanted me too (example: I would not allow her to live with me, with the children, while she was planning a spontaneous escape to NY to be with a man she met online and told her now husband about it) and the PAIN of having your grandchildren used against you as weapons is beyond measure. I’m glad my grandchildren are here and I do love them, but if I had an either/or situation, I would have wished my daughter NOT bring children into the world. I feel for you.

It is very isolating at times. The “P” word isn’t politically correct. I’ve learned where it’s safe to talk about it and where it is not, although I did blog about it and that was a big step for me. It made it more real, I guess and it has helped some parents who have viewed it who are dealing with the same issue. Do you ever wonder how many there are? I often think more than we know.

My son is what he is. I accept it. I think part of that is just knowing I did everything I could possibly do to help him and to screech to professionals who simply would not listen. I’m glad I had him arrested and put into that treatment program. It was my last ditch effort to help him, and to try to be heard. I was able to let it go because I knew I had done all I could. It’s just knowing there are victims that is very painful to all of us.

Good to see you, Katy. Thanks for sharing about your daughter.


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