By | January 12, 2013 51 Comments

No matter how much you know, sometimes you just fall apart anyway

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (retired)

I’ve recognized that my son is a psychopath since 2006, and have cut contact with him. Unfortunately, he has not forgotten me, and sent one of his friends to kill me, and probably intended to, one by one, kill the rest of the family, so he could have everything we collectively own.

Every so often Patrick comes up for parole. I have been working with an attorney who “gets it” about psychopaths, and with others, to protest his parole. I have had wonderful support here from the Lovefraud community, many of whom have sent letters to my attorney in support of my parole protest. Many family members and friends have written some wonderful letters as well. Some of the strongest, most meaningful letters are written by hand on lined notebook paper. I have wept when I read some of them, wept tears because it made me feel so loved to read what the person wrote.

But going to people and asking them to write the letters has also been very stressful. It has been embarrassing as well. I had to explain the situation to some people who didn’t know about all this ”¦ “I have a son in prison for murder and he tried to have me killed and I’m protesting his parole. Will you write a letter for me to the parole board?”

Other people have known me for decades, know the situation with Patrick, know he is in prison for murder, know I went into hiding because he sent a former cell mate to kill me.  I had no doubt these people would freely write letters ”¦ and some of them told me a resounding “No, I won’t write a letter.” Even though I told these people there was no way he could find out they wrote the letter, since parole hearings are secret, like grand jury hearings, still, they would not write the letter.

Betrayed and belittled

I felt betrayed and belittled ”¦ that they did not take my safety as a priority. I began to feel somewhat like I felt when my son, D, and I ran for our lives, leaving our home and most of our possessions to go live in a trailer parked in a friend’s front yard. At that time, my son, C, my daughter-in-law, and my mother “pooh-poohed” my fear of a convicted pedophile that was living in my mother’s home as her “live-in caregiver,” was a “friend” to my son, C, and a former cellmate of Patrick’s.

During that fateful summer when I first discovered LoveFraud, I spent days crouched over my computer compulsively crying. I haven’t felt that bad since then. But this parole hearing, and being turned down by people I considered close friends for decades, has sent me into a tailspin of emotional turmoil and physical symptoms brought on by the anxiety and stress.

Last time when he came up for parole, we had a large packet of documents and evidence against my son and the Trojan Horse friend of his. We had letters and cell phone pictures from inside his prison cell that he had e-mailed out to his friend, before he got caught with the cell phone. This time I don’t have that evidence to present to the parole board. And 20 years, plus or minus one or two years, is about all the time “life” for murder means in Texas. (Unless it is a cop or multiple murders.)

This chaotic mess sounds like a plot from a bad soap opera. It was so unbelievable that my new therapist that summer actually thought I was a paranoid schizophrenic, and asked me to bring in witnesses to my bizarre story. Frankly, I wasn’t offended, because my story did sound like a nut job.

Re-experiencing the trauma of the past

Over all I have done pretty well. Even still, I still get stressed!

No contact is so important in allowing us to heal and to stay healed. But just like a physical wound that heals and leaves a scar, and is never the same as undamaged tissue, neither is our psyche. When we have contact, even “back door” contact, when we have to dredge up all the old feelings and the old emotional responses in order to deal with a current problem with the psychopath, it re-injures us.

I publish articles here all the time on how to deal with psychopaths, how to stay strong, and yet, sometimes I feel that anxiety, I feel that stress, and I feel that pain again. So just knowing about psychopaths, just knowing the things to do, doesn’t always keep us from feeling the painful emotions.

It doesn’t mean I am a failure; it simply means I am human. I, too, have feelings, and I, too, have needs for safety and peace. Sometimes, just thinking about the situation with my son takes away that feeling of safety. The disappointment I feel when friends I loved devalue and belittle me by refusing to help me with my parole protest, by even writing a letter—well, it hurts. The ones who have written powerful validations of my situation, though, have made me realize I do have some wonderful caring friends.

So I am not alone. Most of the time I do okay. Most of the time I count my blessings, and I have many blessings. But sometimes, I just cry into my pillow for those people I wish had loved me as much as I loved them.

What I’m trying to say by this article is that no matter how well you do, how healed you are, there may come times in your life when you feel like you are re-experiencing the trauma from the past, and falling apart again. It’s okay. It happens, even to the strongest of us, even to the ones who “know” all about psychopaths, because we are human. We do have emotions, and sometimes those emotions are triggered.

When it happens, accept it. Be good to yourself, let yourself feel your feelings, but rest, eat right, and reach out to those who love you. And above all, count your blessings. God bless.

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Joyce, I just posted a plea for readers to write their own letter before I even saw this article, and I want to give you ENORMOUS virtual (((((HUGS)))).

My feeling is that the reason that people balk and refuse to “Do Something” to prevent the possibility of Patrick’s parole is simply because they are afraid. They are afraid of retribution, sure. But, the deepest and darkest fear is with regard to their own situations. Acknowledging that a long-time friend’s own offspring attempted to have her murdered creates doubt in their own minds, perhaps. “Does Junior/Juniorette ever consider having ME murdered?” It’s visceral because it’s possible – even if it’s a REMOTE possibility, it’s always still a possibility.

Even some of us on this site that “get it” about spaths, ppaths, and murderers haven’t participated in this effort because of deep, dark, and un-named personal fears. It is what it is, and fear is a very powerful reaction, as well all know.

Well, I’ve lived in a state of fear and anxiety for my entire lifetime, and I’m sick and tired of FEELING sick and tired from fear. I’m working very, very hard to make decisions and choices that are not fear-based, and I don’t always win those battles. But, this was one battle that I did win.

So, your recovery has hit a bit of a snag – you’re only human, Joyce, and you’re “allowed” the occasional meltdown, especially when you’re feeling abandoned in this effort. Well, after a good, long cry, remember the support that you have and tuck all of that support up under your elbows and allow us all to help you back onto your feet.

Love, hugs, and brightest blessings of encouragement to you


There is a shocking number of people who, no matter how well you know them or consider them friends, just don’t want to get involved in anything of yours they might find unpleasant.


DawnG, people often won’t address something that they might find unpleasant, even in their own lives – which is why I’ve been on this site since 2009.

But, there comes a point when doing the “Right Thing” can actually liberate individuals from that feeling of unpleasantness. By participating in Joyce’s efforts, it’s allowed me to put a lot of my fear-based decision-making aside, which is how I actually moved through my entire life.

And, yes…..there are those who won’t risk the effort because they are too comfortable in that environment of fear and unpleasantness. I lived that way for over 50 years, so I can identify with that.

Brightest blessings

Ox Drover

Thanks, Truthy, yea I’m having a good long cry, a good long melt down….and yes, I feel betrayed and belittled by the people who have told me no…especially the ones that KNOW the story. Especially the ones that I have been there for them as a friend when they needed a hand to hold.

For the past week I have been sick…sick enough to go to the ER, and for follow up appointments and treatments and medications here at the house. So I KNOW this is my body telling me “SLOW DOWN JOYCE, take care of yourself, you’re under too much stress.”

So in order to survive this I HAVE TO SLOW DOWN, to take care of myself. Find out what is wrong, take care of it and REST and allow my body to restore itself.

I have always kind of kept up a “front” of being in control, of being able to handle whatever life threw at me, even when I was internally falling apart. People here on LF have told me that they wish they were “strong like you, Oxy” but what each of us must realize is that no matter how “strong” we may appear on the outside, we are HUMAN, and we have feelings, emotions, and fears just like everyone…even the “strongest” of us has a pity party once in a while, falls apart, punches pillows, screams and cries in frustration, and it’s okay. We’re human.

The support I have received here at LoveFraud through the years has helped me get through the worst of it and I hope I have paid it forward by being supportive of others, but at the same time I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I’m any stronger or better able to cope than anyone else. Or that once we “get there” that we never have any back sliding. Especially if you must have some kind of contact, even back door contact, with them.

My X BF P I don’t have to have any contact of any kind with him and he is a nothing on my emotional radar…a total nirvana of indifference…but with Patrick and with my egg donor, they are always on the edge of my conscious thought, and when I have to go through those mounds of papers, read them again and think about the things he has done, the things she has done, it rips the scabs off the wounds no matter how hard I try to keep that from happening.


Joyce, YES……your physical Self is suffering a throttle-hold from the emotional Self and that stress has to manifest, somehow.

The “front” is the same one that I’ve always kept up – odd how we believe that appearing “strong” and resolute with our chins stuck out will preserve our bruised selves, eh? Well, we’re all pretty vulnerable and, it’s OKAY.

The x bf is no longer an issue because he’s out of the proverbial picture, sure he is! And, this nagging peripheral radar that captures Patrick and egg donor can’t really be disconnected simply because your very life depends upon keeping your finger on that pulse to make sure that you are safe and secure. That, alone, is stressful enough to create physical havoc! Now, add that to the upcoming parole hearing, all of the triggering, the past devastations, and everything else that goes along with ANY spath entanglement, and you’ve got Socipath Borscht flowing through your veins!

Yes, indeed, slowing down and taking a breath one minute at a time is what the doctor orders! 😀

Hugs and hugs….


Joyce, as a complete aside from the topic of your article, I’m one of those people that creates “visuals,” quite frequently. Being an artist, it’s unavoidable and it can sometimes be inappropriate when this occurs.

I envisioned each of our “emotional” selves standing in front of our “physical” selves with wild eyes and dripping in sweat. Both of the “emotional” selves are staring at the “physical” selves with such intensity that it’s alarming, right? Without turning or losing focus, my “emotional” self throws out a hand to your “emotional” self and says, “MY turn!” Well, your “emotional” self is holding a ball-peen hammer that it just sank into the forehead of your “physical” self, and MY “emotional” self is getting ready to do the same thing!

Now…….right. I don’t need another cup of coffee – it tends to go cold in about 4 minutes in this frigid place, anyway. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, boy….

Ox Drover

Wow, truthy! You’re sick!!! SICK!! 🙂 LOL

Yea, right now my emotional self is a wreck….and I’ve tried to keep up the competent can-do front and keep on trucking…thinking who else I can approach for a letter. Then risking asking them and them saying “No” and each time they say “no” it is like that ball peen hammer hits me in the head.

Then there are the physical things that have to be done around here…animals to take care of, kitchen to clean, spending time with the “werewolf,” driving a friend to a doctor appointment that she needs a driver home after a treatment, going to physical therapy myself, doing physical therapy here at home, and on and on…things that have to be done to get through a day, a week, through life…and I wonder how I ever had time to WORK in addition to all this…and then the body says PAY ATTENTION TO ME, YOU’RE TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH…back in 2007, I got Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and had it for 2 months and got to the point I could hardly stand up before I finally said “Opps, I think I am VERY SICK” and went to the doctor.

Well, this time I went sooner, in fact went to the ER (good girl, Oxy! Especially after you chewed your friend for not going for 12 hours when she had a stroke) Primary care providers are the worst patients usually, but I’ve made a VOW to be a good patient and go when I need to and follow directions.

The research done about what stress hormones do to the body are totally clear and I have no doubt that what I am experiencing physically is a reaction to STRESS. So I am going to slow down, take things easy, let son D take care of most of the physical things around here and kick back and rest and recover. I’ve done all I CAN do about the Patrick parole thing. I’m at a point where to try to do more is going to harm me and I don’t want that. Putting MYSELF FIRST is my priority now.

It isn’t that I didn’t and don’t KNOW THAT, but knowing and doing are sometimes two different things. Just like we may know that smoking or drinking is bad for us but we do it anyway. I know that STRESS is bad for me yet I allow myself to become too stressed, so now it is time for me to PUT UP OR SHUT UP. DO or DIE. I mean that literally. Stress can kill us if we allow it to. It craps out our immune system and makes us vulnerable to all kinds of viruses, germs and other problems.

Dear Oxy,
I am so sorry to hear that stress has literally made you sooo sick.I’m glad you went to the ER and reached the conclusion that it’s time to rest and let your body recover now.

I just finished writing my letter to your attorney.Will get it in the mail.


Dear Oxy
I am so sad b/c I didn’t do enough. I am sorry. My letter was short b/c I thought if I wrote as I usually do, going on and on, they wouldn’t read it. And I type b/c I have terrible handwriting. I even used my old return address b/c I confess to feeling a little paranoid of being found. I should have realized that a handwritten note with fuller descriptions would carry a lot more authority.

Is it too late to write another, and put all my thoughts and feelings in it? I wrote b/c I wanted the letter to matter, but I can see that I didn’t do enough.

Am so sorry for what you are going through. Sometimes being strong has a downside. You aren’t getting the support you need. You know stress kills, so we do have to self care, but it’s not weak to lay it out there that times are tough. I want to be a part of that support. You deserve it, we all do. If it’s not too late to write a second letter, or not too confusing, let me know.

All my best,

I’m so sorry that you’ve been sick from worry. It’s understandable. As humans, it seems to be what we do: worry.

I think the problem is that we have no faith in law enforcement because they don’t seem to “get it” and they’ve let us down before. In my case, they were LITERALLY at my spath’s beck and call. When the spath saw me driving onto the island, he called his cop buddy to wait for me and pull me over on false pretenses. I gave him the slip but he was waiting for me outside the cul-de-sac which had no other outlet. It is an OUTRAGE, that the people paid to protect us, would rather attack us because they are spaths too.

Remember, the bible tells us not to worry:

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

Which of you, by being anxious, can add one moment to his lifespan?

Why are you anxious about clothing?
Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow.
They don’t toil, neither do they spin,
yet I tell you that even Solomon in all
his glory was not dressed like one of these.
But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which
today exists, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven,
won’t he much more clothe you, you of little faith?

Of course, we still worry. I do anyway.
So God gave us a commandment, the 4th commandment.

Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work-you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

At least on one day a week, we should take the day off from worrying.

Well, I wrote this to encourage myself as much as to encourage you.

When I remember how I ended up praying to Saint Michael and one of the spath’s cop-minion literally ran from me, while the other disappeared into thin air…I know God will see justice done.



That is an awesome and COMFORTING post you wrote to Oxy…thank you…it helped me a lot, too! You are so good about this stuff.

By the way, I just picked up about 20 minutes ago a copy of “The Descent of Woman” from the library. I can’t wait to read it.

I’m glad it comforted you too. We HAVE to help each other because we are all we’ve got. Nobody else understands.

I hope you like the book, it’s very different from anything I’ve ever read. Elaine writes very honestly, while at the same time, using logic to support her theories about why people act as they do.



Nobody else does understand…such a true statement. No one does except us.

I will let you know what I think of the book.


I had a bit of a meltdown this week myself. I did something really stupid. I got a little bored at the office, and googled my spath’s ex girlfriend, who he dated before me. She is unstable, and has had multiple suicide attempts, the last one was when she heard we were getting married. I saw her address is now listed as my ex-husband’s house, so they are back together and living together. At one point, we actually had to get a lawyer to send her a letter threatening to file a restraining order against her, and now he is back with her. No contact means no contact. Not just with the spath, but their family and anyone else involved with them. I was upset for about a day. I think what bothers me the most is that, in my case, THE SOCIOPATH ALWAYS GETS HIS WAY. He used me, got rid of me leaving me with nothing, stole from me, and now has his ex girlfriend back. I am very much alone, still suffering the side affects from the divorce and multiple breast cancer surgeries. At times, it feels like there is no justice in this world. Yes, a lot of sociopaths perform criminal and illegal acts. Mine falls under the wire. In his desire to have everyone believe he is better than the rest of the world, he would never do anything to make himself look bad. Personally, I think he is gay and in the closet, never to come out. To him, gayness is a weakness or an imperfection. I am suffering physically and financially due to my marriage to this predator, but yet he continues to live his life and get what he wants. At times, it is just hard to take…


Dear Rochelle,

I’m so sorry this has happened to you. You are mourning the loss of something that never existed. He is back with his ex……the poor woman is what I think. Outwardly, it may seem like he is getting his own way but don’t be fooled. Things must be grim if he is back with someone he once filed a restraining order against. Desperate times require desperate measures? My dear, you keep on fighting. You will get there and you are most definitely better off without such an arse hole. Bless you


Dearest Oxy,

I am distressed to hear you are suffering. You are such a role model here at LF and always there for new and old posters alike. I want to wish you peace and love my friend. Be kind to yourself. Hugs to you SW xx

Ox Drover

Dear Skylar and the rest of my LF friends,

THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart…for the letters to the attorney and for the comfort of your support. Yes, Skylar, the Bible does tell us to take some REST…even God didn’t work 7 days a week, on the 7th day He rested. And we should remember to pray and too realize that He does CARE FOR US…we have to work like it all depends on us and pray like it all depends on Him…and I have not done that, truly…I have put more of my trust in my own efforts and I know that in the end God is the one I have to depend on.

Back in the summer of 2007 when I sat at my computer and wept, sick, pretty much alone, not knowing if I would ever be able to come back to my house, it took those things, being FLAT ON MY EMOTIONAL BACK, for me to “look up”

I read the story of King David (not yet king at the time) having to hide out iin the wilderness because King saul was trying to kill him. I got to thinking, God COULD have stopped saul from trying to kill David and therefore david wouldn’t have had to hide out, but then I realized that there was a LESSON FOR DAVID in hiding out in the wilderness. There was a lesson there for me to.

I think there is a lesson for me again…and it is to do all I can (I’ve done that) and then just let God do the rest and quit making myself sick worrying about it all.

Thank you all for your prayers and your good thoughts! That is what will bring me through. (((hhugs)))

Tea Light

Just to echo strongawoman, rochelle it seems possible that the ex – now current partner may have become suicidal as a result of her involvement with your ex husband? My best friend fought breast cancer and my hopes and prayers that the stress your disordered ex has caused you reduces so you can focus on your recovery.
Oxy , you have been instrumental in me finding the strength to keep going these past 2 weeks I’m praying for you you so greatly deserve an end to your troubles much love to you x

You had a little backslide, it’s okay. Just get right back on the NC saddle because that’s where health and happiness are to be found. Imagine if you were the ex/current gf. OMG, that poor woman. She will likely end up suicided.

We know that spaths are not real, they are only a facade of a human being, filled with envy and hatred for humanity. Until you recover completely, you must protect yourself from exposure to anyone who even has a whiff of spath to them. Only love, light and good things for you. That’s my Rx.

Ox Drover

Rochelle, that “back door” contact is just as bad as front door contact, in how it gets to us emotionally. In my case I am forced to have the contact…forced to try to get a presentation ready for his next parole hearing…just like some people who co-parent with the monsters, and I feel for those mothers and fathers who are forced to have contact with them, but if you don’t have to, if you are not FORCED to have any kind of contact with them, don’t. It won’t pay off in the end. Knowing what they are doing just hurts.

But, keep in mind….he is not making her any happier than he did you. She may think for a while that she has “won” the big prize, but WHAT “BIG PRIZE”??? Him??? LOL She “won” the biggest pile of shiat, but what is that?

There used to be an old joke in California that

First prize was a one week vacation in Burbank
Second prize was a Two week vacation in Burbank
Third prize was a Three week vacation in Burbank.

So it is the same way with psychopaths, the woman/man who “wins” them gets the WORST PRIZE of all.

Tea Light

As a brit can I ask what’s so bad about burbank?!



I can tell you they are right about NC, none at all, even the back door contact. I would be 9 months NC had I not slipped up and now it seems worse than at the beginning. It really is 3 steps forward and 20 steps back 🙁

I just keep finding out stuff that keeps me stirred up.

Here is a thought that popped up reading your post. Are you absolutely sure about the suicide attempt and instability on her part or is this just something your spath told you? The reason I ask is because when I first met my spath he convinced me that his wife was unstable and suicidal because he left. The “she can’t live without me” ego trip. I doubt that now, I feel that he just told me that to make himself look better.

I hope you can find the strength to go total NC.


Tea Light. It ain’t Beverly Hills. lol.
(burbank california used to be the boonies, inland valley, no glamour, the back studio sound stages, now… it’s not so bad, great mall nearby)


The stories about the wife have a grain of truth. She’s been emotionally abused by him so much for so long that she doesn’t know what is real. BUT it doesn’t mean she’s REALLY suicidal. My husband kept trying to get me to commit suicide. Part of his smear campaign was telling everyone how crazy I was. ANd he’d sabotage me by saying something reallly terrible right before we’d walk into a gathering, so I’d have this look on my face, a look that affirmed for people that I was not in touch with reality. And He’d looked for sympathy, telling people how glad he was that I let him get out to socialize with others. It also fed into his plan to have me killed, and they’d get away with it b/c he’d proven I was CRAZY. Funny though, I’d go away…well, I’d get overwhelmed and runaway to England, go walking in Yorkshire, and totally calm down and talk myself into thinking it was ME, that I was jsut TOOO emotional. I’d be all calm and relaxed upon my return and the oppression would start again…. and whoops back into drama and stress and shame and defensiveness alll over again. My X! told people I couldn’t live without him either, and they were ready to help him do all kinds of stuff to me, kept me destitute so I was financially dependent, (THE BANK would not allow me to write on MY OWN BIZ account, b/c the teller was his schoolmate and HELPED Him so I could not take any money.) It was CRAZYMAKING but I was not crazy. Thus was life with an spath in the smear, dump and discard end of the marriage.

Ox Drover

Tea light, it is just an old joke…but “winning” by getting the psychopath sure is NOT ANY GREAT GIFT OR PRIZE. So the wife who gets her husband back, or the GF who gets him back has LOST BIG TIME.


Hello and Happy New Year,

I haven’t been here for a while, but had something occur and felt the desire for support, even just to read, and I came across this most timely article. Thank you Ox Drover for sharing all of the profound feelings that I too, am experiencing at the moment, however, my circumstances are not the same as yours, and I am deeply sorry for what you have expressed that you are having to endure. I would like to write a letter in support of you, if it is not too late.

I need support at the moment, and although I have learned that we should not compare our situations to others, I feel that my issue at hand is minuscule compared to the level of hardship that you are having to contend with, Ox Drover. I don’t expect anyone here to remember me, as I wasn’t here for very long, and I did not share as much as most members, but I am so grateful to have this place to come to. So thank you.

I have been doing very well and healing and growing, post P experience. I had become close via cyber space, with another survivor, who I came to feel a strong and lasting connection with, and who became one of the “safe places”, so to speak, that I have had, in terms of expressing my feelings and purging all of the grief, etc. I grew to have immense trust in this person, and that was important to me, as I have been in that vulnerable place, for lack of a better term.

This evening she informed me that “I have not been tainted enough to have an excuse to dwell on Psychopathy any longer”, and I should just move on, to other things. It was a WTF moment if I have ever had one. She feels that because she had an abusive childhood, incomparable to the childhood that I experienced, I do not have an excuse to still express myself, to help others by sharing my experiences with them, and also went on to say, that I know everything that there is to know about Psychopathy, now, so I should be finished with healing and go focus on other things and be on my way.

I can say that I have periods of time when I feel that I need to go to a place where there is support, and there are times when I do not feel the need. I think this is normal, and in fact may be the case for me, for the rest of my life.

I am exhausted at the moment so I will stop, here.

Thank you so much. I truly appreciate it-


Dear dear Shane,
I’m sorry this happened to you. You are NOT alone. Several of us have had similar experiences reaching out to other cyberspace friends.

It seems like salt in the wound, but try not to think of it that way. I look at it like I needed a “more rounded” understanding of the cluster b’s. They come in so many shapes and sizes!

I always say that a Spath’s favorite food is a narcissist. So that might group me in with narcissists because I know I was my spath’s favorite food. But the truth is, most of us here were targeted because we needed to learn something. We had some growing up to do. Your “friend” might just need some growing up. In the meantime, you might want to know what I did when I encountered “friends” who didn’t have compassion for me or for others: I went NC. Forever.

I need friends to help me grow up, not people who add more drama to my life.


Thank you very much, Skylar.

I appreciate your input. I do know what you are saying, but disappointed that the person who seemed to “get it”, took this approach with me. I would never have thought this would be possible by this person who seemed to have so much knowledge as well as compassion. Ok, so I am learning.

Thank you, again!


Shane, I’m sorry that you had this experience and I remember you posting a couple of times and I’m glad that you are back at LoveFraud.

I’m also involved with a couple of other websites that address sociopathy and recovery, and there is a lurking danger in “meeting” people who can hide behind the relative anonymity of the internet to troll for “source targets.” These people often type the words and responses that bait potential targets – the targets present opportunities to exploit, especially if they are being honest and truthful in their communications. The trolls simply present what they believe to be the proper responses. These aren’t always “romantic” situations, Shane, but the LOVEBOMBING is identical. “You are SO strong!” or, “You can TRUST me because I know how YOU feel,” or any other over-amplified flattery or compliments.

Why do these people do this? Because they CAN. Online Life is a form of communication that is relatively “new” in the whole scheme of human interactions. There is no way to really “know” if someone is whom they claim to be unless there is clear documentation (like Donna’s preamble to with facts that can be verified. They do this because it feeds some type of need that they cannot fulfill in regular, normal, face-to-face interactions.

On this site,, trolls have come and gone during the years that I’ve been a member, and we can typically “vet out” these people by just observing posts, etc. That this person that you’ve mentioned claimed that you weren’t “tainted enough” to continue focusing on sociopathy is a TERRIBLE slap in the virtual face. Whether or not this person is, indeed, disordered and trolling online for source targets doesn’t matter. Anyone who would minimize another person’s experiences and subsequent pain in such a cold, harsh way is TOXIC!!!

I’m so sorry that you had such a mean experience. Stick around LoveFraud, Shane. You’re welcome, here, and nobody is going to tell you what you “should” be focusing on unless it’s to assist in your healing and recovery.

Brightest and most sincere blessings

EDIT ADD: Shane, it may be helpful to consider that the most proficient narcissists and sociopaths actually RESEARCH sociopathy and studies, and then post links and regurgitate data to APPEAR to understand and empathize with the experiences of a potential source target.

Ox Drover


In reading a book by Dr. Viktor Frankl, whho wrote “Man’s search for meaning” (and I recommend you get and read it) after he spent 3-4 years in a Nazi prison camp and lost everything but his life, said that “pain is like a gas, if there is a little gas, it expands to fill the container, or if there is a lot of gas it compresses to fill te container” so in EFFECT all PAIN IS TOTAL.

If a baby drops his passie, it is te END OF HIS WORLD and he cries and cries, his pain is TOTAL. Now of course WE know his pain is only momentary but he doesn’t.

I felt bad for feeling TOTAL PAIN because I had not lost near as much as Dr. Frankl, I felt GUILTY for even feeling bad at my own losses until Ii read what he said about pain being like a gas.

This “friend” that you trusted is NO FRIEND, and it hurts when someone we trusted lets us down and she did that for sure. Maybe she isn’t a psychopath, but she sure is not a functional survivor, and if she is comparing her own pain to yours and saying “well, you didn’t have as much trauma/pain as I did soo yours is not important” she is obviously MISSING THE POINT about healing.

Also, keep in miind that it is not infrequent that a person who presents as a “victim” is indeed a “victim” but are ALSO themselves disordered to some extent. At least dysfunctional.

I have had the dis-pleasure of being lured into thinking someone was a “victim” when in fact they were a psychopath, FULL ON P, whose victim managed to escape so they presented themselves as a victim.

You know what the SMEAR CAMPAIGN IS and they all do it, so if one of the legitimate victims escapes, the P will tell the world that THEY are the victim. Some of them are quite good at it too. It is difficult to tell who is the “real victim” until you have been around the person a while. Even Bob Hare says no one can peg a psychopath on first meeting them so we have to be CAREFUL in any new relationship and not give away TRUST…and when we see a RED FLAG, like your “friend” dis-ing your pain, well, then we KNOW they are not what they appeared to be and we NC them. We all get fooled from time to time.

Just come here to LF and keep on reading and learning and recovering. (((hugs)))



My heart goes out to you. Some of here are ‘luckier’ than others’. What I mean is I don’t have a son, who isn’t going away, and who will likely always come around for parole hearings, beating at the door of my PTSD.

I know you know how to take care of yourself….but I have to say it anyway, Oxy, take REAL good care…and know we all understand.

xo, Slim

Tea Light

Shane, it’s uncompassionate of this woman to try and impose a hierarchy of pain in her comparison of your experiences. It’s not appropriate. Maybe she is too overwhelmed with her problems to be a positive healthy source of support. Don’t jeopardise your recovery staying in contact if so, that has to be priority number one, peace and love to you

Tea Light

Sky, oh yeah. Time for me to grow up and assume full and complete responsibility for me and my life. Very frightening. But not as frightening as sleep walking out of complacency and naivety into the hands of a maniac.


Hi Shane,

I had what sounds like a very similar experience. The woman I knew even introduced me to the idea of psychopathy as an explanation for the betrayal I experienced. She has a brother who is a horrible spath, and drove his mother into a psychotic break.

Long story short, she also thought I should get over it much more quickly, and that it was ‘only’ lovefraud (a broken heart), and not like I was threatened with murder or anything. She even had him over to her house, for another woman’s party, because she couldn’t NOT invite him without it being ‘awkward’. WTF?

I did what others’ here did. I let her go. Have never spoken to her since.

I hope you have other, more accepting, friends in your life that are nurturing and understanding.

Everyone here knows that I study the red flags and look for signs or patterns that will reveal the spaths.

Still, what I’ve come to understand is that it starts out with us studying them and ends up with learning about OURSELVES. When we learn to set boundaries, when we learn to insist on being treated well and respected, then we don’t have to know very much about the red flags.

The boundaries demand that EVERYONE treat us compassionately, not just the spaths. We don’t make exceptions.

I had a “friend” online who treated someone else badly, though she was always nice to me. Her excuse was that she was “triggered” and it was her PTSD that made her do it. She wouldn’t apologize to the offended party, she wouldn’t back down. It was all about her.

So I went NC. Later I found out that she did apologize but she was still secretly plotting to hurt the offended party.

Even though she never targeted me, I knew it was not wise to stay in contact with her. If she would hurt others, she will eventually hurt me and I wasn’t going to wait around for that.

Our boundaries should include moral standards that we expect from everyone. These things keep us safe.

Ox Drover

Sky, you are so right, if someone will HURT OTHERS, but not you (YET) you can bet your boots they will move up to hurting YOU eventually.

I have also come to realize that a person who is a FRIEND to my ENEMY, is not a FRIEND to ME.

My X BF burned down the house of his last x GF before me. SEt it on fire, and burned it pretty much all inside…ruined the historic house she had destroyed her grandmother’s antiques…and there IS NO DOUBT he did it. Not enough evidence to prosecute him, but NO DOUBT, and one of the “best friends” of the woman whose house was burned is STILL A FRIEND TO the man she knows burned the house. WHAT???

Well, he didn’t burn HER house, but so she is still friends with him. I don’t see this woman very often but she is in my living history group and I see her at some events, but I don’t seek her out as a friend. I would not invite her to a party at my house even if it was one where I invited people from my group, she would not be on the list. It isn’t just that she is “cordial” to this man who is in the larger group, like nod and move on if she sees him at a bit event, but she ACTIVELY seeks him out to socialize with.

The gal whose house was burned is very active in the group and at the larger regional events she sees the X BF and she is “cordial” in other words essentially GRAY ROCK, nods, says hello and doesn’t make a scene.

At the most recent regiional event I didn’t go but my son D went. the X BF came up to D and was being oh, so friendly, asking about the farm etc. and son D was Gray rocking him with one word responses, “fine” “great” “no problems” and then the guy said “You know, I need to come up there and visit you guys and get some of your Scots Highland beef.”

Son D said he turned and looked X BF in the eye and said in a VERY GRUFF VOICE, “That would NOT be a good idea, Buddy”

Son D said that the guy STUTTERED and couldn’t come up with a reply, because apparently he thought just because D spoke to him at all meant there was no hard feelings. LOL Yea, right.

The last time I saw him I did not speak.

The time before that I told him that if my house was struck by lightening and I SAW it struck and knew that was what set it on fire, I would STILL be AFTER HIM and my SONS would be after him.

He did do something nasty to me, but it wasn’t burn my house at least.

We must look at the MORAL COMPASS of someone and if it fails to point pretty much “due north” then we need to pass that person on by. If they cheat, lie, steal, and abuse others, they WILL eventually cheat, lie and steal from us. I found out after I started dating him that my now X BF had cheated on his wife of 32 years CONTINUALLY, and though I thought (for a while) Oh, he won’t do that to ME—even before the wedding, YES HE DID DO THAT. He only wanted a “respectable wife” to keep his harem of women who were scattered all over the place from each wanting to marry him and once his wife caught him and kicked him out, each of these women was wanting to be the next Mrs. P, so he wanted a “respectable” wife not the “whores” he was screwing. A respectable wife to cheat on. What a winner he was. NOT! So glad I didn’t marry him and then have to find all this out.

Same thing with “friends” if they will tolerate people who they KNOW are dishonest, or if they are dishonest themselves, I don’t need them in my life. It’s been a difficult and painful lesson for me because I WANT to trust people.


Thank you so much, all of you! You make me feel so welcome, here and it feels so good to know this. Thank you. Forgive me, as I have been working all day, and have just returned here. Thank you for all of the amazing words of wisdom and support. Truthspeak, thank you for validating how the way I was treated by the person, could be that of a slap in the face. I think that is exactly how I had felt. Actually, my heart fell to the floor. I am feeling so much better, this evening, thankfully.

You wrote: That this person that you’ve mentioned claimed that you weren’t “tainted enough” to continue focusing on sociopathy is a TERRIBLE slap in the virtual face. Whether or not this person is, indeed, disordered and trolling online for source targets doesn’t matter. Anyone who would minimize another person’s experiences and subsequent pain in such a cold, harsh way is TOXIC!!!

As sad as it is, I am so glad to hear you say that this person is toxic. I have been feeling that way, however, I had developed such trust, and (what I thought was) a friendship, or at least as much as you can have with someone, online. It was like the type of friendships that I have observed all of you having, here. So, to learn that this was not the truth of the matter, was very shocking to me, in a sense. Thank you for validating my feeling and what I had perceived of her behavior/treatment. She is actually a blog owner, which is somewhat frightening to think that she could behave in such a way with the wrong person, ie; someone who has just become aware of the dupe, in the initial stages of grief, confusion, cog dis, etc. Anyway, I am moving on from it, and I accept your invitation to come here and spend time with all of you, which is what I should have continued to do, previously, but no should, coulda woulda’s I guess, at this point. I am here now and forever grateful, as I am definitely not finished with my healing process, and quite honestly believe that I will want support, and to offer support to others for the duration of my life. Thank you, again

Ox Drover, thank you for remembering me, I truly appreciate that. You wrote: This “friend” that you trusted is NO FRIEND, and it hurts when someone we trusted lets us down and she did that for sure. Maybe she isn’t a psychopath, but she sure is not a functional survivor, and if she is comparing her own pain to yours and saying “well, you didn’t have as much trauma/pain as I did soo yours is not important” she is obviously MISSING THE POINT about healing.

I thought exactly, that, but it was so shocking I couldn’t help but ask myself, is this really happening? Kind of like the WTF with regard to the ex-P. That same sort of feeling after the love bombing and then the switcheroo, or what ever you call it. It is like being blind-sided, so to speak, but I do know I don’t have to try and explain that, here. Thanks so much. I copy and pasted your wise advise to Word, and I will get the book you have recommended. You actually recommended Kubler Ross’s book on grief to me, a while ago, and it was beyond helpful, so thank you for that and the additional recommendation, I truly appreciate it!

Hi Tea Light, nice to make your acquaintance, and thanks so much for your positive encouragement. You are so right! I went NC right after the incident, by the way, and although I felt I was being hasty, I knew it was right, and today I am feeling relieved. Thanks, again!

Hi Slimone, thank you, and sorry you had to deal with your similar issue, as well. I do have others who support me, so I am fortunate in that sense, however, they have not been duped by a P, therefore the reason I became close with someone who I could share with, that understood on the deepest of levels, but it is now apparent that the trust part of a friendship with her was not there, so I am here, and feeling as though this is a truly great place to be. Many thanks!

Looking forward to reading and sharing more-

Thank you for your kind and generous support,

Ox Drover

Shane, believe me I have run acrooss some real “doozies” on the internet…people I thought were okay and found out they were full on psychopaths in some cases. In fact, I just send Donna an article about one I met on a web site for a “murder victims survivors help sites” and he tried to con me out of money—for “expenses” of course to help me. Fortunately he hit on the wrong BIATCH and I ended up getting his job by getting him to put his requests in writing on E mails and then sending that to the executive director of the group (which is legitimate) and though the director at first thought “this is just a mis understanding” I showed him it was DISHONESTY and POOF! The guy lost his job (paid job) with the group.

You never know were you will meet trolls, and there have been some people who did all kinds of ugly stuff from sex stuff on line, to meeting someone for purpose of murder/rape, so it pays to be CAREFUL people can be “anyone” on the other side of the screen.

Meeting people in person is no guarantee that they are who/what they say they are, but it gives you some better chance, especially if you meet their friends family coworkers, neighbors, etc. but not even then is 100% guarantee. It ;just takes time and observations to tell who and what someone is.

We need to learn the red flags and to honor them, when we see dishonesty or meanness of any kind in a person, RUN!

Shane, something else to consider regarding narcissism: narcissists really feel that they are entitled, that they are right. They feel justified.

The ancient tribes who practiced human sacrifice in order to appease the gods, really believed that they were doing the right thing sacrificing the one scapegoat, to save many. N’s feel the same and you can’t convince them otherwise. They believe that they are right to treat you badly, to be inconsiderate, to slime you with their guilt.

I’m sure that the frienemies who betrayed you and I and everyone else, felt justified. There is nothing you can do about it. You can’t change how they feel because they NEED to feel that way.

All we can do is watch for the red flags of narcissism and know what to expect. Sure, lots of us are guilty of acting badly, but the difference –the BIG difference– is that once we see that we are acting badly, we own up to it, take responsibility, don’t make lame excuses (oh but I have PTSD, people don’t understand me, I misspoke, I would apologize but it would be taken the wrong way!!), and make amends.


So so true, Skylar. You make profound points. And the excuse making and all. And I do think that she needs to feel that way because she was clearly wanting to win what she seemed to see as a victim contest of sorts, but the problem with that was, I am the opposite, and have worked hard to become a survivor and a victor and NOT a victim. Yes we were all victimized, however, who wishes to stay in that position, head space, frame of mind, etc. She thought that who ever was most victimized was the winner, and was the only one worthy of expressing their wounds, I guess. I feel for her. Oh my. Who wants to stay in that place. No, I did not have abusive parents, however, my mother had a narcissistic mother, and we all went through much healing with my Mom, and my mom is the the most beautiful spirit (sorry I am getting off topic). My point being, I didn’t have to be abused by a parent, to understand Narcissism/Psychopathy, and somehow, I too, was duped and became personally involved with a P, 18 months, ago and it was a Hellish experience, especially the hardest parts of the aftermath. Yet, I was told that I am not damaged enough. Not tainted enough to have an excuse to be “dwelling” (which I am not dwelling), on Psychopathy. I have been learning, reading, I was seeing a terrific therapist who works with survivors of trauma and many of those have been inflicted by Cluster B’s. My point being. We all have our stories. No matter how long or short term, whether they only gas lighted, tricked us, or were full blown murderers, we all had the life sucked out of us for at least some period of time, and I believe the symptoms are the same for all of us, for the most part. When I realized the dupe I had the chemicals in my body and brain go wacko, the hormone and adrenal issues, hair falling out, isolation, fear, loss of all trust, then the intensity of anger, humiliation, pain, etc. Maybe I have not experienced Pathology for my entire life, but I have been healing from an experience with the same kind of person as she is, therefore blablabla. I can ramble. If she wishes to feel more victimized, she has my blessings, as I am the opposite, and wish to heal fully. Thank you so much!


Ox D, I can imaging about the running into doozies online. I have never engaged in online dating for fear of doozies. I have had several folks try to encourage me to try it out. There is no way that I ever would. I am not judging those who do, and I do have a few friends who have had positive outcomes, but I think those happen by sheer luck and only once in a blue moon. I personally will never take a risk such as that. I whole heartedly agree with you, as well, with minding the red flags. I became hyper vigilant with this, but it is quite apparent that I had some things to learn, as I did not notice some of her behaviors as red flags. I will get better at this, with time and more experience, I presume. Thank you! Thank you! S


online doozies and floozies


Lol. Thanks for the laugh MoonDancer


Shane, I had a former friend in Real Life that was an absolute malignant narcissist, and quite possibly sociopathic. She lovebombed and demonstrated incredible acts of support and sacrifice to me, personally, and I always felt skeeved about this because I could NEVER return the “kindnesses” in like kind. At some point, she began buying gifts for me and having them shipped to my home. Eventually, I became so uncomfortable about this over-amplified display of affection that I told her to stop sending me things because it made me uncomfortable.

Finally, I realized what she was doing. She remains a spinster, has never married, nor had children, and was never financially stressed as she had been living off of her father’s income – he paid for her rent, utilities, tremendous veterinary bills, auto and health insurances, groceries, EVERYthing. She targeted women, specifically, who were in a tough or dire situation and would lovebomb them to the Nth degree, and then cause them to feel obligated to listen to her tirades about marriage, sex, religion, finances, raising children, pet care, and everything under the sun. She was the foremost expert on everything, although she had no personal frame of reference from which to speak.

This woman made other vulnerable women feel OBLIGATED to tolerate her venomous behaviors because she would lovebomb them and shower them with gifts and uber-flattery, so they OWED her.

Toxic is toxic, whether there’s a disorder present, or not. I have too much work to do in my recovery than to even entertain ANY amount of toxicity. If they’re toxic, they’re out, and that’s all. I’m all business, these days – I don’t give anyone any information about me, my past, my childhood, etc. It’s none of their business, and I won’t give anyone the tools to tear me apart, if I can avoid it.

Brightest blessings!

Ox Drover

Truthspeak, you have definitely picked up on a part of our culture that is used against us, the “beholden factor”–the Mafia uses it, we do you a “favor” then when WE ASK A FAVOR YOU OWE US.

My Scots Irish culture is the same way. If someone does you a favor (you accept a favor) then wen and if they ask a favor in return, even if you do not want to do that favor, you cannot refuse. You are beholden to them, obligated to them. OWE them.

My culture will Do ANYONE a favor, but when someone will accept a favor you know they trust you as a friend. This IS CHANGING though as some of the young folks will take favors from anyone and repay NONE.

But the woman you described above was obligating these people by setting them up and when they would object to her behavior, she could indignantly say “well, and after all I have done for

Lovebombing, over the top generosity, etc is always a RED FLAG in a relationship.


OxD, one of the things that goes all over me is when someone responds to my situation by saying, “I know what you mean,” or, “I know how you feel,” and go on to discuss their botched salon visit. How can anyone who has not lived without a good heat source in the dead of winter, no cookstove, and no hot water “know” what I mean or how I might feel?

That’s precisely what the woman that I mentioned above did – she compared my enduring 15 years of domestic violence and abuse to one experience where she took on 2 truck drivers after she and her friend were picked up hitchhiking. She claimed that she had taken on both of these truck drivers, sexually, to “preserve (her friend’s) virginity.” REALLY?!?! Her conscious choice to hitchike with her friend and engage in sex with random people compares to being repeatedly raped by a spouse in what way?

Right – she lovebombed every female that she encountered who was in dire straights so that she could belittle them and cause them shame. And, she’s STILL alone, STILL unmarried, and will forever remain so, and not by her own choice, but because she is not a nice person, whatsoever.

It’s not always a romantic sociopath that causes damage – and, that’s what is vital for everyone in recovery to understand. When we are vulnerable, ANYONE with a nefarious agenda can scent that out and cut us apart with surgical precision.

Brightest blessings



Your article brought tears to my eyes. I cannot imagine the pain of what you have been through and are still going through but I can identify with the feelings. They say adults cannot be betrayed but our wounded child can sure still feel the pain. Anyway, I think that is technical misrepresented jargon. We can all be betrayed. We trust and our trust is violated. We give and the recipient takes that and more. We share ourselves and get fake replies or worse, we get shunned.

Your family is torn apart like mine is over a psychopath. Why do we see it so clearly and others refuse to believe or just think it is none of their business or not care what a person has done to someone else? I guess it is the legal mentality of punishment for murder instead of protecting society from murders…and the concept of rehabilitation for those who cannot be cured.

I wonder sometimes why I was chosen to understand this evil phenomenon that no one else wants to see. God knows I did not want to see it or know it. But no one wanted to believe the world was round either. Knowing is better than not knowing but it sure sucks swamp water. What are we going to do with it?

There is a small movement of recognition but I fear it is too little too late. Capitol Hill is a nest of them. Lawyers, police and ministers are and they attract more into positions of power over children, students, innocents. The inmates are running the asylum. It seems the small percentage of them can do more harm than the majority they victimize can count. One or two psychopath per hundred and yet each of them victimizes multiple people. I count at least 15 that the one in my life has victimized and I know that cannot even be the half of it.

The denial is rampant. I have a husband a daughter-in-law, a friend and a therapist who believe and support me besides those of you here on LF. I guess in that I have more than many. Everyone else is out to lunch and playing bridge or golf with them. It makes me so tired. When I was young I thought I had conquered it, saved my children, survived. Now it is about to conquer me.

I saw it in my daughter’s eyes. There is no going back. I wish I could put all of them in prison with your son and keep them there forever.

Bless you and I sent my letter.

Ox Drover

Thanks, Betsy, the letters are all I can do this time. Last time I had a ton of EVIDENCE that he was involved in a stock scam, had tried to have me killed and they still gave him 1 year less than they previously had, 3 instead of 4 before he could come back. I am scared shiatless he will get 1 yr or get out this time. The only thing I know to do is to bombard the board with LETTERS OF PROTEST.

My egg donor and I am sure everyone in her church of Satan (these are the people who call themselves “Christians” but they and their pedophile minister turned their backs on me in favor of a pedophile exconvict) are all writing letters of support to get him out. If I sound bitter about that I guess I am, but I work hard to NOT be bitter, but at times it overtakes me.

Being bitter about all this is letting them “win” because it takes away my peace, so I do try too NOT let them take my peace. When we allow someone else to determine our happiness and peace, we are giving them CONTROL over us. I don’t want that. I am human, though, and sometimes I don’t do as well as I know HOW TO DO.

Thanks for your letter for the parole protest and your understanding. I know you DO know how I feel at the “loss” of a beloved child. The betrayal aspect makes it worse too. A while back my son D said “You know if dad or granddad was either one still here none of this would be happening” (my egg donor supporting my son Patrick) But they aren’t here so I just have to accept what IS and do the best I can.


I came from extremely abusive and selfish parents. One of my brothers tried to kill my father…and wanted to kill himself. He was protesting the lack of caring/love these two individuals were unable to give. They could only consider themselves.

Narcissism has become a huge problem. But some are just psychotic narcissists…no therapist, neighbor, counselor, or priest could help my parents. They were too far gone.


Thanks Oxy,

Yes I come time to time to LF to get support. Being a expath’s victim one has to keep up with the material all the time to keep our head straight.

Always good to see you here.

I am constantly thinking about my reaction to different happenings of life, which has taught me a lot.

I went to attend a workshop which was how Trauma effects you and how to get over a trauma.

Expath created trauma in my life and he left leaving me in trauma as well. Workshop indicated at cellular level, even when we continue with our life in most normal way, we sometimes feel in the same rut by something reminds us about them.

Doctor who was giving the workshop said something very important, which was though our mind seems to moved on, trauma leaves its mark on our each cells, and cells hold this traumatic effect in its memory. So then there are triggers which wake up these cellular memory. This is why we always feel the effect of trauma if something reminds us anything about the expath good or bad.

NC is very important, but go easy on yourself if you find yourself in a rut again, it is the process our body goes through it. Remind yourself expath can’t do anything to you anymore, your feeling is what your body is feeling and it will forget tomorrow….

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