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People with bad behavior in the news

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (retired)

I recently read this article in the New York Times about Lance Armstrong. Armstrong is a world famous cyclist and well known “do-gooder” with his “Live Strong” website, which purports to tell others how to “Live Well and Live Strong.” Armstrong is a survivor of cancer. Testicular cancer is a “young man’s” disease and one that I sought to teach my college-aged patients about when I worked as a director of student health. I also have a close friend who is now a middle-aged man who is also a survivor of testicular cancer. It is a horrible disease.

Details of doping scheme paint Armstrong as leader

It has been rumored for years that Armstrong was “doping—”using stored blood for reinfusion before races and/or taking drugs. Only now is the vast amount of evidence coming out about just how prevalent this was for not only Armstrong, but for his teammates as well.

One of the things that stuck out in the article to me was the following quote:

But the evidence put forth by the antidoping agency drew a picture of Armstrong as an infamous cheat, a defiant liar and a bully who pushed others to cheat with him so he could succeed, or be vanquished.

I can’t say from what I know about Armstrong’s vigorous narcissistic self-promotion as a “philanthropist” and a “do-gooder,” or from the above quote, that Armstong is a psychopath. But I can say that if the above quote accurately describes him as a cheat, a defiant liar and a bully, that Armstrong is displaying some of the traits that we know are found in a psychopath’s behavior.

People who lie, cheat and bully are not the kind of people that we want in our lives. It is unfortunate when people who hold themselves up as role models for others, and for our young people, actually lie, cheat and bully those around them. Yet they are seen as “successful role models” for our young people.

Jerry Sandusky

Jerry Sandusky also held himself up as a role model and philanthropist, as well as a person of high morality. He was still a defiant liar as he was sentenced this week after being convicted of sexual abuse of multiple young children.

Sandusky gets 30 to 60 years for sexual abuse

“His statement today was a masterpiece in banal self-delusion, completely untethered from reality and without any acceptance of responsibility,” said Joseph E. McGettigan III, the lead prosecutor. “It was entirely self-focused, as if he, him, were the victim. It was, in short, ridiculous.”

Judge Cleland deemed Mr. Sandusky’s statement “unbelievable.”

Of course Armstrong’s “crimes” were not probably as damaging to our youth as Sandusky’s were to his victims. The point is that people who are high in disordered traits lie in the face of evidence against them. Dr. Robert Hare says psychopaths will “lie when the truth would fit better.” The lie when the evidence of their behavior is unequivocal.

Covering up

I could go on and name hundreds of media heroes who have been brought down from the heights of fame and fortune by having their bad acts and their highly psychopathic behavior exposed. The shame I think, though, is that there are way too many people who are in the limelight whose behavior is known among those close to them, just like Armstrong’s and Sandusky’s behaviors were known. Yet those people kept silent about it.

Why are people who know about such horrific behavior as the rape of young boys (such as Paterno knew) willing to sacrifice honor (at the very least) to protect a football program, or a racing team, or a priest who is abusing children? I wish I knew the answer to that, but I don’t.

What I do know, though, is that there are too many times that I have kept my mouth shut ”¦ kept the family secrets, or even lied to cover them up. So I, too, am guilty of covering up for those that have done evil. But I have made the decision to never again do so.


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OxD, thanks for this article. It’s poignant for me, right now, because of an event that I described in a previous thread. One person is covering up a violent attack outside of a college facility and another person has heard about this through student gossip. The second person knows that approaching the director of the facility will result with the director saying (as she has on MANY occasions), “Yeah, but don’t say anything about it, okay?” Well, the second person cannot do that on a legal or moral basis – there is a Law that requires federally funded colleges and universities to report incidents of violence, and the director is expecting many people to keep the whole matter quiet – and, they HAVE. The only people who are “talking” about this incident are students. Staff and faculty are not discussing this attack, and (IMHO) people don’t usually tend to avoid discussing something tragic or violent that occurs to someone that they actually KNOW.

It’s all about more fence-sitting, and enabling. These postures only allow bad things to continue happening.

Thanks, again, for this absoutely timely article.

Brightest blessings

OxD,

I am very sad to know Lance Armstrong is not what he was portraying. It’s unsettling to find out what we believed is not true and then I ask myself is the whole picture a lie?

I was surprised to hear the attitudes of attorneys and their staff in family law, expecting all of us to have skeletons in our closets. Some of the biggest trouble in the courts is the belief that you may just be a facade and so many are so you must be too. This very attitude is why good people are not believed and guilty until proven innocent is seeming to be the rule instead of the exception even in court. By the time you have proven you were the real deal, there is so much damage done to your life and all who are involved, the recovery becomes the question.

Each time decades go by with the fence riders keeping the dirty little secrets of those who are doing the exact wrong things from the image they portray, integrity of all becomes in question. It takes too long for the truth to get out and there are too many powerful fence riders or enablers. Look at Madoff. That scandal went all the way to the top congressional people and the SEC the very regulatory board who was to protect us. I commend those who fight to get the word out on these crooks and liars who have pulled this public facade off but are nothing but frauds. The job of exposure of these people is not for the weak. The whistleblowers are strong and determined and I admire them.

A lady yesterday, won her lawsuit against Nevada family court for being a whistleblower who refused to go along with the criminal acts of court facilitators which were harming children and she spoke out. She proved she was retaliated against for not “going along” and she won! This case has been going on for a while and I am very hopeful it sends a message to these people when a jury of peers gets together on this stuff they agree the behavior should not and will not be tollerated and we really want people to do the right thing. That’s a win for the good guys and helps remind me good still can prevail. The psychologist who had his licensed revoked due to the regulatory board doing their job and a thorough investigation proved my credibility and the assistant state attorney used my very words in the 9 page document against him stating what I showed as fact in my complaint was in fact true. I believe this played a part in my family court case taking a turn and stopping the insanity. Another one for the good guys….

Dear Eralyn, sugar I am so glad that you got some “justice” because sometimes none of us get any justice…so I am really pleased as punch wen ANYONE gets some justice in the family court system. I haven’t succeeded there, ever, but I’m glad to hear about the few who do.

It is sad that Armstrong is a fake, and John Edwards, and Sandusky and lots of others but people make their own choices. When WE believe their hype and get fooled, then we feel badly….because it is a shame that ANY person is that kind of person…a liar, a cheat and a bully and a FAKER.

At least these few have been exposed for what they really are and are not going on fooling us more, or damaging more children.

Wow! Classic. an army of enablers plus ensnaring others to commit crimes so he wouldn’t be the only one. It ensures they keep their mouth shut. His MO is so much like my exspath, except he focused it mostly on bicycling. I wonder what other evil things he has done?

The need to cheat to win, is a red flag of spaths.

In a moment of projection my spath once said to me, “You’re so competitive.” I threw that comment in my WTF? bucket.

Skylar, it sickens me about Armstrong’s apparent scope of control and coercion. Even his wife knew and excused him for various “reasons.”

What is so apalling is that SO many people knew and were involved and the vociferous defenses of what a GREAT guy and BRAVE guy and WONDERFUL philanthropist he was generated 100% doubt in people who would have given two shits except for the media coverage and sports celebrity aspects.

Armstrong is not a “great guy.” He is not “brave.” And, he’s not a wonderful fundraiser. What he clearly is would be a very, very selfish and manipulative sociopath. Just because he survived cancer doesn’t make him noble or a saint. He’s just someone who uses every situation and event as a personal supply. He does not have a conscience because I have yet to hear about any sincere apology that his actions and choices have destroyed the trust of millions of people. He’s a worm of the lowest order.

I may have mentioned this, before, but the exspath has a brother-in-law who is an extremely toxic and abusive person – undeniably a very bad person. But, he developed cancer in his his jaw and underwent surgery and it was removed. He recovered in very good order. So, the point of this is that any “normal” person would likely view their personal recovery from a brush with cancer as an opportunity to “make things right.” They would probably do some serious soul-searching and appreciate the “second chance” as a Divine Opportunity to better their lives. A sociopath that survives a dreaded disease or condition doesn’t view that survival as an opportunity to make things right. They see their survival as the time when they “Beat The Grim Reaper” and snap their proverbial fingers in the faces of mankind and God, Almighty (or, Great Creator, or whomever). “See that? How about THAT! I BEAT YOU!”

What dopes………no pun intended, I swear.

Brightest blessings

SO…..just out of curiosity, how did Armstrong generate such “loyal” accomplices? Did he use fear and intimidation? I heard a news report that claimed that his team members were afraid of him so that’s why they not only enabled his doping, but engaged in it, themselves.

I know this may sound rhetorical, but why would anyone in any competitive sport risk their awards and their reputations by engaging in group-doping and enabling? Seriously, do NONE of these people have integrity?

Just as there are STUPID and OBVIOUS LOSERS who are psychopaths, there are those who are SMART and SUCCESSFUL in whatever they do–sports, music, business, Politics, religion….think Armstrong, O.J., Paterno,(I list him because though he may not have DONE the bad deed, he COVERED it up) Sandusky, Maddof, Blago, John Edwards, and the LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON…read today’s paper, there will be more and more examples on a local, state wide, national and international level….the list is endless and will always be endless.

If you read history or the Bible or any literature that shows what HUMAN NATURE is, you will find that there are endless lists of people who have set themselves up as “successful” who are in fact, the “successes” they are because they climbed to where they were by WALKING over the BACKS of others who they used and abused or conned into participating in their abuses.

Look at Hitler….only a small proportion of the German people were Nazis or were monsters, but those that were evil participated and those that were spineless or afraid kept their mouths shut at the very least. Only a few people like Carrie ten Boom and others like her were willing to put themselves on the line to STAN D UP for what was RIGHT and GOOD….Many of those people paid for their courage with their lives.

Sure cancer is no respecter of persons, both good people and bad people get cancer and survive (or die) and Armstrong used his survival to present himself as a “hero” and he presented his “success” (which he did not legitimately earn) in a sport as making him a “hero” I am glad to see however, that his HOUSE OF CARDS came tumbling down to FALL on his head and I hope that he is prosecuted and sent to prison for what he has done.

What I HATE TO SEE however, is that now the GOOD that Armstrong did is TAINTED and SLIMED (thank you for that word in this contest Sky!) by association with HIM.

Penn State foot ball and the school will FOREVER be slimed by what happened there with Sandusky and by the fact that the “sainted” Joe Paterno KNEW AND DID NOTHING.

Truthspeak,

I believe he became powerful in his public persona much like the Penn State behavior. They are well connected and know some powerful influencial people. I imagine they can tell who would go along over those who might have too much integrity to continue their facade. They are such great readers of people.

I really feel like even though I have been a hard working active person in the family court debacle in my state, I am one of the last people who could get on any governing board or get a job opportunity as I am known to shout about what is not right. I wouldn’t be the best choice for an Armstrong type. While I really have a passion in this area and would love to make a difference I have accepted that unless I am called on to make change, I will not be considered for employment in these areas. So for now I work for FREE!! Opening my big mouth and shining a light where and when I can to help children in our system.

I really believe these toxic people know who to bring in and who to keep out. Unfortunately it feels all too often the bad guys have many minions who are willing to do their dirty work…….

It was very eye opening how many people knew the old reunification therapist who abused my daughter and her reputation to harm children. I found lawsuits and complaints and they said they were just waiting for someone like me to take her down! ? I found even the child “helpers” and “non-profits” feared a light shined on them so they kept their mouths shut about horrible things when I was shocked they weren’t working to stop these people.

OxD,

You are so right. I am glad to see them be exposed as sad as it makes me. There have got to be people who are cheering who knew and weren’t heard or knew and paid a price for attempting to show. I am always glad for the validation or justice which does finally get done.

Imagine all the honest trainees who lost to Lance Armstrong and he was once again awarded for bad behavior. So it’s worth a cheer! They don’t make whistleblowing an easy task.

Speaking of that, there is angel in my case who continues to post about the revocation of the psychologists license regarding my child custody case on “psychecrime” and “psychereporter” websites. It was posted in May and again in September by someone putting a brief shout out of his license being revoked and why. It makes me smile that someone wants this bad guy exposed too….I endured a 2 and a half year investigation by the state with this guy attempting to discredit me, publicly humiliate me and working his butt off to show a lack of whatever they could find to stop me from pursuing this. The father called and threatened me on Valentines day last year that I would be publicly humiliated (sorry I am immuned to this thanks to him and would be paying the psychologists attorney fees if I showed up to his hearing 2/25). I was scared and I was tired but I showed and I testiified. This was all going on with the family court case. UGH! My garbage cans were stolen, all my phones were doing strange things. It was not good. The more I found out about the phony psychologist the more I felt right sticking with it. Hopefully phony pastor/former psychologist isn’t getting his tax exemption any longer for his church since the IRS requires you ARE ordained for those 15 years of write offs. I am pretty sure there were faith based federal funds used against me for the fathers use from the prison reentry system as the prison clergy was even involved in my case…..

Eralyn,

You mention the prison clergy….please e mail me privately off the blog, you can find my e mail under “love Fraud authors”—I’ve got something going on with my son and a prison clergy that I would like to discuss with you. I am currrently fighting his upcoming parole hearing and he (my son) is highly involved with a prison ministry group that works hard at getting inmates out. I am hoping you might have some information that might help me in this as I don’t know anyone else that is not involved with this ministry that I can talk to about it. Thanks.

ps eralyn, TOWANDA for you testifying, I know it is scary, but it is worth it.

I am at the other end of this spectrum. I do speak up, but really, nobody wants to believe what I have to say despite things being black-and-white and indisputable.

Specifically, a number of years ago, my son’s non-custodial P father filed to have his child support obligations of $65/week reduced (not that they were overburdening him to begin with) claiming that he was sick and the current amount was such hardship on his health. This was mid-October.

About 10 days later, there was an article in his area’s newspaper about the 17-room mansion he lives in, how it is filled with antiques, the cute little puppy dog that he owns, the three-car garage, an account of the maid handing him the phone, and the Halloween display that he puts on which is so spectacular that the police close down the street because they estimate 20,000 people come by to see it. There was also a few paragraphs about how wonderful he is because he collects money that he donates to children and how he spent over $500 on candy alone.

When we went to court in November, he told the hearing officer not to pay any attention to the article, “it wasn’t important.”

The judge did deny his request to have his obligation reduced, but he didn’t increase it any either.

My guess is that people like the glitzy and showy. As long as they are getting something out of it, why should they be concerned about the ugly back story?

I don’t think people get that if somebody can do something like this to another person, what it demonstrates is what this person is capable of doing. The thinking is there and the person will act on those thoughts. Period. It’s totally illogical to argue, “But they’re not really like that.” Yes, they are. They did it. Repeatedly. And if they can do it to a child, that makes is even more heinous.

People don’t get that once somebody has pushed the boundaries and knows that he or she can get away with something, they also now know that their tactics will succeed and that they can get away with it, again. It’s like finding the goose that lays the golden egg.

Why not go for more? What was once a risk has become the norm. I think it’s like a drug addiction. There is always a carrot dangling in their minds that must be better than what they’ve obtained to date.

People like to think that they can spot the bad guys. People like to think that these things will never happen to them or to somebody that they care about or hold close.

As long as people can take deep breaths and believe that they escaped a bullet this time then something like that will never happen to them again.

Yeah, right.

But Daddy Dearest may finally get his.

Last year, he went to court and certified how disabled he is and incapable of working. He actually said that the child support enforcement efforts were harrassment.

This year, he’s running for mayor and has on his party’s website his photo and glowing statement about all the businesses that he owns and the committees he is on. When I went back to see if there was any more news on the Internet about his mayoral candidacy, it came up that he had applied for a council seat, and later won it, which “bookended” the support hearing.

I did report him and he is being investigated, but the child support enforcement people just sent me a letter saying “if he lied last year…”

This isn’t even a “he said/she said.” These are newspaper accounts and public town notices, but it is still all an “if”.

I really feel like the “he said/she said” is a BS excuse. Kind of like blaiming the economy for the adolescent suicide and child abuse/murder going up.

He said/she said gives the judges the continued excuse of making poor decisions and having no accountability. My case was all evidence based and should’ve been stopped out of the gate with some sense. Of course that wouldn’t have pumped the tens of thousands of if not more money into that system…..

What I’d really like to know is what brought this all to the light of day. What made his minions turn against him despite being as guilty as he was?

That wasn’t mentioned in the article and I think it’s the most pertinent information for our purposes. We need to know how to turn the tables on the spath.

Skylar, even rats will jump from a sinking or burning ship.

The minions probably are thinking that they can dodge scrutiny if they can make Armstrong the “leader.” Think about it – it’s like a group of juveniles that rob a liquor store for kicks. “Well, HE came up with the idea and “made” us do it….”

Skylar you ask a good question and I don’t know the answer. I can hazard a guess – and that is that a spath has evil at his core. No conscience, no remorse. I think a “normal” person does, and eventually sees the spath for who he is, and turn away from the evil and go towards the light. So maybe the minions aren’t minions but are more like you and me. Temporarily unaware, but eventually coming to awareness….recognizing the spath and moving towards the light.

Oxy, thank you for posting this article. You grabbed the line that I saw too. A few months back, there was a video posted on youtube that an expert analyzed – it was of an interview with Lance Armstrong. The expert pointed to many “tells” in what Lance said and did during the interview, including a smirk, which he dubbed “dupers delight”. I saw that and believed Lance was guilty.

This is what spaths do. They present one vision as a reality, when they are actually 180 degrees the opposition. The 180 rule.

My spath dressed supremely well, gave out lunches to the homeless, went to synagogue every week, and had the most impeccable manners you could ever imagine. However, he lied, cheated, stole like you can’t imagine.

Sandusky, Armstrong – the “good works” are simply a distractions to the lies.

Athena

Athena:

Mine didn’t have good works at all. He would NEVER even think of giving out lunches to the homeless…HA!…that’s a joke 🙂 He was extremely selfish and told me in a “tell” when I asked him if he had pets and he said, “I’m too selfish for pets.” Hell…that wasn’t even a “tell”…he told me outright!

Athena,

When we went to court last year, I insisted that the lawyer put in my certification that Daddy Dearest utilizes smoke and mirror tactics.

She wanted to call it “playing games,” and I said no, it’s smoke and mirrors.

He’s manipulating the landscape so people won’t catch what he’s really doing. It’s all a facade.

So yes, they’re distractions from the truth.

Gis, louise,

For as long as I have been in spath recovery and been on this site…4 years now? It amazes me how long this recovery takes. Its mind blowing.

Louise yours must have projected some sort of good, no? Good that you assumed was pervasive but was not? Either that or he was evil as all hell and you just didn’t recognize it?

Athena

Athena:

Yeah, “projected” is the key word here…it was all fake. I don’t know…so confusing. Part of me thinks there was good in there and part of me thinks he was just evil as hell.

Looking back, I don’t think I really saw any “good.” By that I mean all the qualities that we as humans see as good, he did not or does not have. He is not selfless or helping or compassionate or any of those things. I was drawn in by his funloving, playful attitude. He’s physically adorable. And the soft voiced English accent was hypnotic…literally. He put a spell on me. And his physical touch was really something and I have to say, the best kisses in my entire life. Sexually, he left a lot to be desired so that really wasn’t a huge draw, but because I was in love with him and addicted, I wanted the sex even if it wasn’t satisfying. I was hooked. It was his goal.

Other than that, I don’t know what to say.

Louise, the exspath used to make all manner of claims of “helping” people that I never actually witnessed. At one point, “we” were donating food to a local animal shelter and, for whatever reason, this stopped.

They do what they believe is necessary to support their assertions that they are “good people,” but the exspath couldn’t ever commit on a long-termed basis. Committment to any cause was an impossibility for him. He simply could not do it. He could make the show for a little while, but he could never truly be “involved” in whatever it was. In essence, he was utterly selfish in his motives, no matter HOW altruistic they might have appeared.

Louise, what you were in love with was the illusion. That’s all. Same with me – the exspath isn’t particularly attractive, nor is he witty. He can read, absorb, and regurgitate information, but there’s no discussion that’s originally HIS. I can clearly remember asking him direct questions in an attempt to engage in deep discussions, and he simply could not – could NOT – get down into his soul and speak an original thought or feelings. Since he has no soul, this truth follows the fact that spaths are not original. They simply reflect what they think their targets want and/or need.

Brightest blessings

Truthspeak:

Thank you. It was an illusion. He, like yours, is not capable of anything long term except his marriage and his job and I believe those two are only because he “has” to do those things. He has been at the same company for at least 20 years…maybe more. Mine is a master of doing only what he needs to do to get by and whatever that something is, he will do it.

Louise, exactly. And, the long term entanglements (job, marriages) are simply a means to an end and NOTHING MORE. They just “go through the motions” of life, but they are not “living” or “experiencing” anything meaningful.

Truthspeak:

Amen to that! A means to an end. Interesting comment he made regarding his job. He had a DUI and didn’t want to get another because if he got another, he would probably go to jail. He said to me, “If I go to jail, I lose my job and if I lose my job…” He trailed off just like that. A means to an end. If he lost his job…well, we all know what that would mean. Wow.

“His statement today was a masterpiece in banal self-delusion, completely untethered from reality and without any acceptance of responsibility,” said Joseph E. McGettigan III, the lead prosecutor. “It was entirely self-focused, as if he, him, were the victim. It was, in short, ridiculous.”

Great statement. Describes sociopaths to the letter when you stand there and listen to them as I did over the weekend when my sociopath helped me work on my house and told me (the discarded one) how it was my fault because we had such a bad past history with all my anger over his cheating and devaluing. He was also telling me proudly about his new girlfriend who is giving up her job in Seattle with microsoft after many years to move 2000 miles to live in the same town as him. She only met him 2 months ago. He must have “lovebombed” the heck out of her. I feel so sorry for her but he has discredited me so badly that I can’t warn her. All of his friends think I am the crazy one.

It also would be so easy for her to do a check on him and maybe recognize a red flag. All she has to do is google him. I put him on a couple of websites. Wish someone had done that for me.

I read most of the Armstrong report yesterday via the NY Times.

Whatever Lance wanted, he got. He got the team doctors he wanted, the team director he wanted, the riders he wanted. And they had to follow the “program” to the letter or they were out.

One of the cyclists began riding to escape his father’s drug abuse, and the USPS team led him right to what he wanted most to avoid. The pressure to do what they wanted and expected of him must have been incredible. He was convinced that injuries he sustained and accidents in races were punishment for breaking his vow never to use drugs.

I think some of these people came clean because they were forced to do so. Some of them certainly intended to take secrets to the grave. But then, so many of them seem to have given testimony when it was clearly in their own interests to just lie and say nothing happened. Once the gate opened, the flood just came forth. I think a lot of them were just tired — tired of it all, tired of living lies.

The devaluation and smear campaigns brought forth against more than a few of them is just astounding. It’s obvious that Armstrong would do just about anything to preserve his “brand”. It’s equally astounding that so many people are going to continue standing by Lance Armstrong following the release of this report. It’s all there in black and white, and I don’t know how anyone can deny it happened now.

Kmillercats,

Warning their victims even if you could would be a never ending task that in the end would not give you a life to live of your own.

Unfortunately most victims once they are lovebombed do not listen to the wwarning. I have been both the warnED and the warnER and neither time did it do any good. So I no longer try to warn people unless it is OBVIOUS that they are interested in listening and only then if they come to me. I dont’ go seeking to warn people.

If it is a matter of a crime being committed I would (and have) gone to the police about it but unless a crime has already been done even they can’t DO anything but watch and wait.

It does make me happy when these media types are unmasked in public and even happier when they go to jail for it. I hope that Armstrong does get either some financial or criminal sanctions. As for the people “standing by” him in the face of all the evidence, look at Sandusky’s wife, and Paterno’s fans all standing by them or their memories…or my egg donor standing beside my murdering son Patrick, there are just some people who VOLUNTEER to be either dupes or victims. Can’t change their opinions no matter what.

Dawn, it’s sounding to me that Armstrong is an awful lot like Paterno and what he did.

The link that Oxy provided with the report about Armstrong and what those around him did is astonishing, but then again, no it isn’t. So many systems are inadequate and assume that people are honest. The dishonest ones will exploit them for everything that they can get out of them.

This is another article that says the evidence against Armstrong is “beyond strong.”

http://news.yahoo.com/did-lance-armstrong-avoid-positive-doping-test-182038095.html

Athena, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Universe does damage control by having our best interests in mind and sees to it that we do not get information until our ability to grasp what happened will consequently be for our fullest benefit and protection.

I’m going through all the docs that Daddy Dearest as submitted over the years, because the child support enforcement people in his state are questioning how I arrived at my conclusions and are asking for evidence.

Up until now, I haven’t been able to submit this evidence because the judges would not look at it. They want things sweet and simple. Now, the child support enforcement people are looking at it and are actually sending along my information to the judge prior to the hearing.

Since the child support enforcement people are asking for it, I am not restricted with what I can send. They’ll make their conclusions and send what they think is suitable.

I am presenting the collective evidence which absolutely is showing the trends, that everything is deliberate, and the P keeps doing this over and over again.

That’s a round-about way to say, Athena, that maybe it’s taken 4 years for you because the Universe can see around corners and IMHO has a reason for not overwhelming you. The Universe is being kind. We’ve been through enough.

Truthy, maybe you’re right and the Ps do these nice things to convince themselves that they are “nice people.” Maybe. I’m inclined at this point to not give them the benefit of the doubt on that level. I think it is more smoke and mirrors to confuse the general public.

Prime example – after my P sister attacked and got her case against me thrown out and a permanent restraining order imposed on her, she had her church saying prayers for me and my son. (Her church puts that in their bulletins, which they post online.)

Nobody will convince me that she cared one iota about our souls or that she sincerely was seeking any kind of help for us. She was covering her butt in case it came out that there was a restraining order on her. She was setting the stage to play the victim.

Am either very wise or terribly jaded in my old age.

DawnG,

It sounds very similar to the demise of the rest. Sandusky, Madoff, catholic priests and so on. Their house of cards come tumbling down and the weakness which may have made them good minions was also what made them fold and do right when the pressure came from the other side.

It’s terrible to know he was so viscious and had so many players but it seems that is the MO of big “brand” as you say? I am glad they reported more of the story and think about it, I wondered how anybody could stomach OJ after that trial. He had followers and he was a cold blooded killer in my book. Eventually he didn’t ‘get away’ as he was so sure he could forever and by his own actions and I hope with some hard work from the victims families they kept the pressure on OJ enough to help him get where he is.

I wonder if they are intentionally withholding the original leaks about Lance Armstrong.

Ox Drover

I did warn one of his targets. She was very fragile emotionally and had only been involved for 4 months but, I heard she had some major hate going on. I feel good that I got her out after only 4 months and it spread his reputation at the large hot springs pool in town and stopped him there so he just moved on to a different arena. I’m done trying to warn targets. I have me to think about now.

Thanks

I have to wonder what Chery Crow is thinking with all the publicity. I wonder if she feels validated. Hmm….

Sheryl Crow at one time defended him publicly. I know that she was called to give testimony to investigators but that information has never been released. Other witnesses suggested she would have to be blind to not have seen at least some of the medical paraphernalia he has with him at training locations. Personally, I wonder if she feels duped by him.

I’m more curious to know how his former wife feels right about now. She was D&D’d rather brutally after standing by him and even apparently aiding with the doping scheme (this according to some of the witnesses).

Thank you for this post, Joyce Alexander, and the comments by all.
Joyce A’s statement reveals a great deal:
The shame I think, though, is that there are way too many people who are in the limelight whose behavior is known among those close to them, just like Armstrong’s and Sandusky’s behaviors were known. Yet those people kept silent about it.
Bystanders … silent witnesses…many “politically correct” reasons to not speak up; some are dismissed or worse.

Consider how many are injured by bullies…children, workers, us average citizens…and how little “meat” we have to seek justice for malicious slander, cons/theft, assaults, and so on the list of crimes that continue by ppaths…
Sharing a research article here on “victims and victimizers”
http://www.zurinstitute.com/victimhood.html

The praise/attention one obtains for persecuting/prosecuting….also has lead to being victimized by “false” allegations.

Great article Joyce…and enjoyed the follow up conversation.

I am personally so sick to death of the enablers, the silent people who (in my case) never speak up against the evil. My life was sucked dry by my spath mother. Unlike my ppath father, whom everyone knew to be ppath, my spath mother got to me by badmouthing me behind my back. She is one of those ‘relationship destroyers’ or ‘murderers by character assassination.’

I have no idea what stories she could have told so many people that would make them ‘shun’ me. I have nieces and nephews who do not speak to me, although we had a great relationship until they allowed themselves to hear the whispers out of my mother and sisters mouth.

I can’t win. I have no voice in that family. I could be Mother Teresa and still feel the pain of the silent treatment.

I once begged my brother to tell me, tell me what the hell is said that would cause him to break ties with me?! TELL ME TELL ME!! But no. NO ONE TELLS.

If you can’t tell, then you don’t really believe it and just WANT to follow the leader. So much sexual abuse going on against boys and girls and it is no small wonder to me. We breed them. We breed the enablers. We don’t want to stick out like a sore thumb so we go along with the pack.

So I am left, alone, sick and devastated even long after mother died.

If anyone gossips to me today I immediately worry about that person.

I have a personal aversion to anyone who follows without questions.

I could sit here and sound all strong and mighty over my own situation, but the truth is I don’t know when I will feel that inner strength I need to survive. In my case, at least to date…the spath wins. And that is why the ‘out there’ criminal ppaths are less scary to me than the silent ones with evil whispers and follower’s ears.

Just my two sense worth (((hugs)))

Dear Speaking up,

You know, I think there will always be a sad spot in my heart for my son C who was an enabler of his psychopathic brother, and who FAILED to warn me when the other psychopaths and his brother were teamed up to destroy me…he KNEW yet said nothing. What a betrayal. Yet, he isn’t a psychopath…but he is NOT the kind of man that I want for a friend…even if he has 50% of my DNA. It is SAD, but it is a fact.

As for my psychopathic son, Patrick…well…the adult man is a STRANGER to me, the child he was, well, that child is dead and gone. Emotionally as “dead” and buried as my late husband is. I still “miss” that child and have fond memories of him as a really great kid—and the STRANGER in the cell, well, he got the organs of my dead son, just like I got the achilles tendon of someone else who is passed on, but Just because I have that person’s organ in my body does not mean I AM them. So the STRANGER is not someone I love, or feel sad for, he is just that, a STRANGER that hates me. Wants to hurt me.

If that makes any sense. and the same with my egg donor. I wish I had a loving relationship with a mother that loved me, and I deluded myself for a while (decades) that I did have, but when push came to shove and the rubber hit the road, I saw that she would throw me under the bus in exchange for her “beloved Patrick” even though he is a cold blooded killer and I have spent thousands of hours taking care of her in her old age and disabilities. (head shaking here) and he has done nothing but con money out of her. LOL Oh, well, it is her choice and she isn’t going to change now at her age. So I just have to accept that I am an “orphan” as far as parents go, and since I have no other sibs from my mother, and no relationships with the half sibs from my father, I have no siblings and I wish I did have, but accept the fact I don’t.

What I DO have though are people that I LOVE and that LOVE ME, and they are my FAMILY. Not by shared DNA but by shared LOVE and that’s what’s important. So focus on those people who do love you, and love yourself. Let go of the others who don’t love you, or who will throw you under the bus for whatever reason. You don’t need those people in your life no matter what the DNA is.

You do make sense to me Ox…unfortunately we are both from families riddled with sociopathic behavior.

After I finally broke ties with my spath mother (well, truth be told, she ended it when I was no longer good supply).

she ended it, didn’t talk to me all the while she was dying of cancer…i lived 45 minutes away and unlike my crack addict older brother and alcoholic younger brother, and far away narcissistic sister, I would have been there for her if she had let me in. Her ego would not allow her to call me.

She died alone. Of course none of my siblings were there for her, they never were. But, spath mother had to have the last word and left her estate to the above people who now find it amusing to ‘silent’ treat me – and bad mouth me to the nieces and nephews. I was so outcasted I couldn’t even attend the funeral. A huge funeral. Yes, mother had every thing all set up for herself (yes, she planned her last event – made sure it was at an Eagles hall so all of those bozo’s would attend).

My sin? I cared for my ppath father in his dying months. It is my nature to care. I have feelings, unlike the drugged or the sociopath. I wouldn’t let a man on skid row die alone if I were nearby and knowing.

I care, I suffer. I don’t get it.

Thanks ox. I know your story and know you too have suffered deeply.

(((hugs)))

Has anyone seen McDreamy being interviewed today?

He sure seemed to be happy the cycling sport has been cleaned up with Lance Armstrongs exposure. He is an avid rider and I had to wonder about a man with integrity (it seems), fame and money loving the sport if he had anything to do with the house of cards coming down. I have seen more times than not, when a group of people are involved in bad behavior sooner or later they step on the wrong toes of someone larger than they are or large enough to take them on. I’ve seen it happen over and over again.

It gives me renewed hope to see this as much as it let’s me down if I was misguided about the individual/s.

what about McSteamy?

Speaking up….when my sperm donor P died, he made sure that it was in his will that I didn’t get diddly and two of my three half sibs were also left out BY NAME from the will….and he was an EXTREMELY rich man (made the forbes 400 one year before the dot com billionaires) but anyway, he left it all to his mini-me clone P son, the youngest who thinks he was wonderful…but I realized that if he had left me $100 million dollars, I would have GIVEN IT ALL AWAY to some charity that he would have HATED. I didn’t want his blood money…his 7th wife died before he did, and 2 of the other 6 made out like bandits (good for them) and the first 4 were SOL…the mother of his other 3 kids, he hit her on the BACK of the head hard enough to black both her eyes…her brain bounced off the front of her skull from the blow on the back is why the eyes blackened. She left the country the next day, leaving her children behind. She never saw them again as far as I know. He wouldn’t let her on fear of her life.

As far as your sibs getting all of mommy’s bling…let them choke on it, you did what you thought was RIGHT and that is all that matters.

I have made the decision to remain NC with my egg donor, but she is not without resources to hire people to care for her so she isn’t lying in a gutter somewhere. I will not be at her memorial service and neither will be my sons C or D…I have already grieved the loss of our relationship while she was alive, and funerals are for the living not those who are dead and I have no more need to grieve the loss of the woman I thought was my mother, that woman is gone. I grieved for her for several years, but have come to acceptance. Just like I grieved for the loss of my son Patrick, and the loss of the relationship I wanted with son C, I’ve come to acceptance of what IS, not grieving over what I WISH WAS.

hens,

I saw him on HLN talking about his hobbys, fast cars and cycling. I only caught part of it but he seemed very pleased Lance Armstrong is no longer involved in one of his favorite sports. Made me wonder.

The whole Armstrong debacle can be boiled down to one thing: celebrity. Our culture places so much value on “celebrity” rather than integrity – win at all costs, right? Football, baseball, gymnastics, etc…..it’s all about the “WIN” and not about integrity.

Speaking_Up, I can identify with your sadness at being a feeling, caring person and having those qualities ground into the dirt. I’m also hyper-sensitive to others and this was one of the myriad “lessons” that I’m beginning to learn as a result of my experiences. There really IS such a thing as “caring too much.”

When I type that, I’m recollecting both spath marriages and the platonic spaths that I’ve encountered over my lifetime. I cared. I made no secret that I cared, either. My willingness to “feel” so deeply for other people’s pain and triumphs was one of the qualities that spaths were able to exploit because I “cared” and “felt” about other people, FIRST, before I cared about myself.

An example of this was my observations of how emotionally abusive and cold the second exspath’s mother was to the victim father. I’ve never seen anyone so cold and hateful to their partner, in public, and I “felt” horrible for this man. He was not validated, on any leve, and even his own medical conditions were minimized and treated as if they were this enormous inconvenience. I “felt” so badly for him and translated that feeling to the exspath – what kind of childhood must HE have endured? Etc., ad nauseum.

This “caring” and “feeling” was manipulated into a very effective weapon that the expath employed to coerce me into agreeing to a host of stupid decisions.

SO, having typed that, it’s a wonderful quality to maintain empathy and understanding for others, it really is. But, for me, it came to a point where I placed OTHERS ahead of my own concern for myself, and these predators capitalize on this. I can still maintain empathy, feeling, and caring for others, but I have to really, REALLY ramp it down and put myself – my own recovery and needs – ahead of caring for others. This is something that I’m just now learning to recognize and managing the “hypersensitivities” and empathy is a new exercise for me. I don’t much like it, because it’s out of character for me, but it’s necessary to do this to form boundaries for myself and for others.

Then, too….I can see that the hypersensitivity was developed by the wounded “inner child.” If I was, at all, selfish (on any level), it was not acceptable or approved of. Therefore, I was not accepted and approved of. So, to meet someone else’s approval and acceptance, this sensitivity and caring was spun into overdrive.

Speaking_Up, thank you for sharing your painful recollections. I can imagine how sad and “jilted” you must feel, especially because Wills and bequeathments seem to hold so much value. Like OxD said, it’s “blood money” in the cases of spaths and ppaths. They hold MONEY over people’s heads like a smelt being offered to a sea lion. If you’re GOOD and enabling and a constant supply source, you will be “rewarded” with money. Well, it’s bullshit.

Brightest comforting blessings

Well here is one of the latest articles on the BIG BOY SCOUT COVER UP in LA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

I listened to a story about this on NPR yesterday and the people who called in, both adult leaders of today and of longer ago and talked about how things had changed. Since my son D works for BSA I am somewhat familiar with their policies and how things actually work in PRACTICE…one of the reasons I am such a hard nosed arse about people who abuse children was the all time “world champion” BSA abuser was Charles “jackie” Walls III who was the son of a close friend of our family’s and whose wife and kids and sister went to a small church with us….he raped over 1500 kids over a 20 year period. He is now in prison where he will remain until he takes his last breath with not a soul to visit him or send him a dime to buy a thing in commissary to make his incarceration a bit more bearable.

I knew Jackie was an arse but I never for one second realized what he REALLY was…and I’ve known a couple of others who went to prison, were arrested, or should have been hung….and that’s the thing, it is hard for the rest of us to even IMAGINE what they are, even if they don’t have such a wonderful mask that we like them, it just never dawns on us that they would molest children.

Actually I am glad to see MORE reports of molestation and teachers, ministers, etc. being arrested not because I think it is happening more often, but because I THINK THERE IS MORE REPORTING GOING ON. I think the cover ups are decreasing. At least I hope so.

Ever heard of Jan Fabre?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Fabre

He got into the news yesterday which displays a shocking callousness on the wellfare for animals (not that surprising though). The end of the wiki article names the event.

At the city hall of Antwerp a film crew was busy with shooting scenes for a Jan Fabre movie. City council people started to hear howling of cats that went on and on, so they went out to find out what the hell was going on: they were throwing cats in the air. Yup those cats landed on their feet again, hard though. None was actualy physically harmed. But they obviously didn’t appreciate it, and it would have been a traumatic repeated and purposeful manhandling of the cats.

The politicians of the city council were shocked and tried to find out what to do about it (they wouldn’t have been filming there without getting a permit for it), but it were part of the crew themselves that stopped the event in disgust, by shutting down the lights.

City council is now looking into legal repercussions of this, because there are special regulations in getting a permit to film animals (including getting an ok from wellfare organisations). And they obviously had not made such a special request, nor informed the city hall of the use of animals.

Jan Fabre was present during the filming: he was dancing in a Fred Astaire costume a level higher, something he did already in the 80s, based on a Salvaor Dali performance (the movie is about all the stuff he’s done since the 70s). What does he have to say: “Well they’re all unharmed. After I saw the rushes I called immediately, and the cats are all fine and happy” and he thinks that the city council is exaggerating if they want to make a case out of this, and btw he claims his work is a homage to animals.

This “artist” is hailed all over the world for his modern daring art… meanwhile this guy’s narcissism make me puke, and his callous responses about the cats reveals his total lack of empathy.

Darwinsmom, callous, indeed. And, another screaming example of a “GLIB” response.

GLIB….it took me a long, long, long time to understand what this meant and how it related to toxic people.

I was just thinking over he said/she said. What’s the issue with that? Somebody has to be making the statements.

The other two choices are he said/he said or she said/she said.

Would we quibble over them?

My guess is sexism would prevail. A he said/he said situation would be taken seriously. A she said/she said scenario would be dismissed as trivial.

Darwin’s mom—to answer your question…NOPE never heard of him. And after your article I don’t care to hear much of anyhting about him.

Jan Fabre? never heard of him, wonder if he would land on his feet if somebody threw him up in the air?

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