By | September 19, 2009 70 Comments

Phillip Garrido: Father?

Phillip Garrido is technically “a father.” He allegedly kidnapped Jaycee Dugard when she was 11, sexually assaulted her, so that she subsequently gave birth to two children. Some have had difficulty attaching the term “father” to Garrido. One news report I saw said, “He allegedly “sired” two children.” These children (both girls), are reportedly 11 and 14. We do not know if Garrido also sexually assaulted the children.

This week I would like to discuss a difficult subject and ask some difficult questions. Because I am using the case of Phillip Garrido to guide this discussion, we are considering fatherhood. However, I believe the same points can be raised regarding motherhood.

Here are the questions:

At what point is a father not a father? At what point does a child not need both parents? At what point does a father’s treatment of a mother justify the termination of his parental rights? Should criminal behavior be considered in custody/visitation cases? At what point is a father so mentally ill that children should not see him? Should a child’s wish to see his/her father play a role in these decisions?

I’ll say up front that in the extreme case of Phillip Garrido few if any one will argue that a court should have the girls brought to visit him in prison. For most people the question of whether Garrido also sexually assaulted the girls would be a deciding factor. For the sake of this discussion we will assume that the question of sexual assault cannot be proven one way or another and that the girls won’t talk about that. We are going to make that assumption because in the vast majority of cases I know of that is the situation.

At what point is a father not a father?

State laws say that a rapist does not have parental rights. O.K. that makes sense for stranger rapes, but what if the rape occurred within the context of a relationship? What if a woman is raped, feels humiated then decides to continue a relationship with the “attacker” so although a rape occurred on Tuesday she consented on Friday and we don’t know which act resulted in conception.

What if there is coercion within the relationship. The man says, “Unless you take care of me sexually, I’ll divorce you and get custody of __________ (an existing child).” Out of fear the woman consents to sex sort of and gets pregnant again. In this case coercion is psychological as opposed to physical.

Now if you think that coerced sex is rape. What about covert coercion? I mean conning? What about the woman conned into the relationship? In this case her beliefs about the man and the nature of their relationship that caused her to consent were all based on lies. Had she known the truth, she would never have agreed to the relationship or to sex. What then?

At what point does the father’s treatment of the mother justify the termination of his parental rights?

In many cases the family courts have tried to separate the relationships of the family believing that a man’s treatment of his partner has nothing to do with his relationship with his children. It appears that even Phillip Garrido provided for these children in that they were supported financially. He also claims he nurtured and loved them.

If you say that kidnap and rape of the mother justifies termination of parental rights. I can tell you of a case where the woman initially consented to the relationship. The man who is a psychopathic con artist, eventually held her prisoner. She gave birth during that time and is now fighting to have the man’s parental rights terminated. He was arrested and is in prison for assaulting a sibling, the woman’s other child, but he is still “a father”- according to at least one judge.

Does a woman held prisoner have to constantly try to escape in order to “prove” she was not a “willing victim”? The victim in Garrido’s case did not apparently attempt escape. Are we to say she voluntarily lived with Garrido?

At what point is a father so mentally ill that children should not see him?

It is clear that in addition to being sexually deviant, and personality disordered, Garrido is also psychotic (delusional and hallucinating). Should children be protected from parents with psychosis? If so why? People with cluster B personality disorders have difficulty with interpersonal relationships and when the disorder is severe are not capable of placing another person’s welfare above their own. What then?

Should criminal behavior be considered in parental rights cases?

There are many children who are ordered to visit parents in prison. Why are these girls an exception? (Provided that they were not assaulted).

Should a child’s wish to see his/her father play a role in these decisions?

Garrido’s victim’s family members are quoted in the news as saying that the situation has been difficult for the girls since “He was their father.” Children have a natural tendency to seek to be with those who have raised them. Why do we use this tendency against them? Why do we think this is always a good thing? Shouldn’t concerned healthy adults make a decision based on reason, instead of a primitive drive children have?

My answers

We all have to stop denying that the above questions exist, put our heads together and come up with a just system for dealing with these questions. In the United States, I am afraid this should be a Federal Issue. It will be very difficult for us to fight to change the laws in every state separately. To say that a child always needs both parents is clearly absurd, as Garrido’s case shows us. If we look at each aspect of Garrido’s case we see there are some clear guidelines that can be developed to deal with situations where:

One parent harms the other.
One parent terrorizes, coerces and/or imprisons the other.
One parent is a criminal.
One parent is mentally ill.

Although cases where a child has two disordered parents are common (and most tragic), cases where there is one relatively healthy parent should be the focus of change. I assert this because by forcing a parent to deal with a disordered other parent, we condemn that person to suffer during what should be the happiest most productive years of their lives. Let’s face it, 18 years is a long time. Also since the psychiatric disorders are partly genetic, these children need the best, least stressful upbringing the least disordered parent can give them.

Please use the comments section to weigh in on your answers and post your own story with regard to these questions.

Comment on this article

Please Login to comment
Notify of
Ox Drover

Boy, Liane, you ask some difficult questions—and not being Solomon, I can’t answer all of them in EVERY CASE—-

Some parents are psychotic when off their meds, but “sane” when on them. Where do you draw the line? WHO draws the line?

Some “criminals” with felony records are fairly okay parents, and some are violent psychopaths.

Define “mental illness”

Define “harms”

Define “terrorizes, coerces, imprisons”

Define “is” define “be” LOL

Yea, I know, he “did NOT have sex with THAT woman.”

Since family courts are under the STATE’s control, how can a federal law cover this?

Because, in my opinion, none of these things has a black or white answer in ALL cases (how could it?) we keep on with the very POOR way of judging things (Look at the Dr. amy Castillo case!)

Un fortunately the people who “make the laws” (mostly attorneys in public service) DON’T UNDERSTAND anything about mental illness or personality disorder or the fact that there “isn’t some therapy” that will “fix” it ALL. I think too that the courts are more focused on “parent’s rights” than on CHILDREN’S RIGHTS.

There is also a huge shortage of foster homes, and the theraputic placement of juviinile “cluster Bs” is a huge tax burden.

Good questions, but I sit here and shake my head and say, I can’t really answer any of them, but I WISH I COULD.


Like OxDrover says so eloquently–I can’t really answer these questions, but wish I could. However, as the less disordered parent of my daughter, I would like to make note of the fact that there are times when children’s voices should ABSOLUTELY be listened to by the court–when they express fear of the other parent, when they recognize that the other parent does not properly care for them, either by neglect or abuse, or both, and when they express a strong desire not to see the parent because they want to avoid the abuse. Not all children are predisposed to loving the abusive parent–so I would definitely resist the idea of not letting children’s voices be heard at all.

I wholeheartedly agree that we as a nation have gone too far to protect the parental rights, and have consequently created situations where the children suffer. There is no black and white, easy answer to this. When parents are both whole and mentally healthy, they present needed guidance and direction for a child. But who determines the health of the parents? We know from everything written here that the understanding of the psychopathic spectrum is limited in the courts as in the general society. I think it truly gets back to education–we need to press for education and study of psychopathy, narcissism and sociopathy. Every lawyer, judge and social worker in the family court system should be required to take courses, read books, and learn to recognize the signs of these disorders. I think that may be the only way to protect children in these situations.

Ironically, the courts often protect the parental rights of people who were never parental in the first place. Because the xs was a husband, he automatically enjoyed the label father. It’s an assumption made by courts, lawyers, judges, everyday people. An avocado with a mustache and a dirty ballcap could easily have fulfilled the same husband-ly and fatherly duties the xs did…but by God the court insisted he enjoy the same rights and privileges as any life form above what he actually was.

In some ways, laws have to be written in black and white and blanket statements in order to be written…unfortunately, not everyone fits under the blanket. How do you legislate the “gray” area? What about the price? I’ve heard other parents spend $3k-$5k on psych evals alone…only to have the disordered parent refuse to do it…and the judges allow them to skip it. I know I didn’t have $3K laying around after I threw the xs out. The cop told me to rent a hotel room while the xs was a fugitive, to put it on a credit card. Like the xs allowed there to be a non-maxed out credit card in the house? In fact, at that moment, he had my bank account $153 in the hole.

My own atty, who spends most of his time defending criminals thought sociopaths were “really rare.” I laughed and told him I was probably 1 of maybe 3 of the people he knew who weren’t- including his secretary. I’d sat in the waiting room enough (nearly 2 yrs)- I’d seen plenty. I gave him Dr Hare’s name and asked that he please Google it. I also asked him if justice was getting a fair punishment for the guilty or “gettin the bastard off”?

Without him going to prison for sexually abusing a child, I am quite sure that the xs would be continuing to demand his court mandated parental rights (because of what I’ve learned, here and otherwise, I can assure you I would be putting up a hell of a fight…the over my dead body kind of fight. My particular xs has a few skeletons in his closet that might one day prove to be useful.). But for the most part, without black and white, the kids are defenseless.

HOW do we GET the legal system interested AND educated on the personality disordered? I also think that the mental health experts need to come closer together on how to diagnose- too often some “hired gun” gets on the stand and says things like “he’s depressed and can’t hold a job because he misses his kids,” when he’s really a very bad man. We can’t add another layer of hoops for them to jump through and have someone label them “normal, just sad.”

Side note- I did meet a few people “in the system” who get it- not to disparage them…they are just too few.


As a foster mom, I saw kids’ longing for their biological parent, especially their mother. I took two foster kids to lunch, who were just meeting, and watched them both sit there and lie to each other, each pretending they knew their mom and had a wonderful mom, both assuming the other child was telling the truth. It was one of the saddest things I’ve watched among children. I’ve seen kids reunited with their mom’s and meeting for the first time. One girl, a teen, was gorgeous. She met her mom, who decades of drug use were apparent, including the missing teeth. The teen was enthralled with her mom and talked about how beautiful she was. She had wanted to have her “real” mom “love” her for so long!

Yet, I remain a firm believer that one of the most harmful things our foster care system does today is allow visitations with parents who are disturbed. I would see foster kids making great progress, then would come a visitation, and they were right back into emotional upheaval. Much like ourselves with NC. You have to maintain that NC to heal.

Likewise, trying to give a mom repeated chances with her kids , letting her have them back repeatedly can sometimes result in the death of a child.

But more commonly, what it does is delay permanent placement and adoption of children for five to six years. The window of opportunity for making a difference in a child’s life slips away, and further more the child is exposed to more violence, even rape, etc. I am not speaking hypothetically, but rather factually about three children we took in. What finally made the courts give up was when one of the children was found outside in below freezing weather in her underwear. But prior to that, the courts had “forgiven” the girls being raped by their father (he did go to prison for it, remarkably…as they often get away with it…. ) , one girl having to have her stomach pumped after getting into a bottle of meds that almost killed her, etc etc.

By the time we got them, the girls were sexually molesting each other and the boy was very violent, got expelled for trying to knife another…KINDERGARTEN kid.

So as much as I understand kids’ longing for their biological parent, I have very little patience with trying to make the biological family work. Those foster kids grew up to be very disturbed kids. Whereas I have friends from bad situations, who started out life with a diagnosis like reactive attachment disorder who are productive and happy people today, because they got adopted into a loving home.



Your question is worthy of Jesus himself because it demands that we turn the entire justice system on its head. Instead of trying to meet the letter of the law (how to stay out of jail), we need to look at the spirit of the law – which is ultimately how to make our society a better place for each individual.

Jesus had many difficult questions posed to him so he would answer them in parables.
Here is my attempt:
If the father is a slave owner and the mother is a slave, what are the offspring? Slaves or children? Possessions or Persons?
If a person has kept another prisoner, controls that person’s (regardless of the method of control) is he not a slave owner? If that person gives birth to his children, what are the chances that he will not treat them as slaves? What would be his incentive to see and respect their personhood? Should a slave owner have the rights that a parent has? NO! because by definition he sees them as possessions and children need to be viewed as persons in order to grow up and become maximally productive members of society.

Jesus said he came to ‘tear down the church and rebuild it again”. He taught against the laws of the old testament, the laws of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. He was accused of breaking the sabbath because he healed the sick on the sabbath, but he told the pharisees where to stick it.

The old law tells people the minimum requirements for being lawful and so it addresses the lowest common denominator.
That is how our laws are: what to do to keep out of jail.
By contrast, Jesus came to tell us what we should ASPIRE to be, what is the highest good: the beatitudes.

Narcissism personality disorder is a spectrum on which we all fall to some degree. That degree should be measured by the degree of selfish control we strive to impose on others. Then the courts should take that into account when passing judgement.

This seems easy enough until you realize that our entire culture is increasingly based on controlling other people with lies. Sales people would be the first to be carted off to jail.


I struggle with this same issue. It isn’t a question in my mind. I am ready to give up all I have to protect my child. His older siblings have allowed me to use their college funds to show the truth to the world (for, as you know, truth comes at a high price). Yet, when it comes to the actual trial, how much of the psycho mambo jumbo are they willing to hear? Is this the reason why FBI wanted list has all these professional women who leave careers and run for their lives with children? is this why several attorneys told me to pack up and move away from my home, my town, my very dangerous X? I have no doubt in my mind, that some parents should not have any rights to their offspring. I also think that in a very high conflict custody battle, joint anything is a sentence to the children who do fall in the middle. But, the judges, the attorneys, and even the clinical court personnel do not read these blogs. So, what can we do to bring our views to their attention?


Judges need to understand this information because it is the root cause of all the problems in human interactions and all crimes: The inability to feel empathy.

But first we really have to understand the ramifications of this information. “we have met the enemy and it is us”.
None of us is worthy of throwing the first stone because narcissism is an inherent aspect of humanity. Healthy narcissism is a protective mechanism but the boundary is fuzzy and because no one is perfect we have all crossed the line.

But still, empathy is the front line against unhealthy narcissism. If we were somehow to get thousands of copies of the books that explain narcissism and slip them into the judges’ mailboxes…. what percentage would read them?
Even a small percentage could begin to tilt the scales…just a thought.

Judges are a good start, but they only interpret the laws, legislators enact the laws and they are narcissists influenced by the votes of their constituents… these changes cannot happen fast enough for me.

My sons haven’t seen their “father” in over a year. That 16mos of supervised visitation prior was hell on earth for me- I got to watch him, without the fog, interact with the children. Chilling. Nauseating. It did help me realize that his mother was also a huge part of his problem…if they add enabling to the Olympic Games, we have a gold medal in her.

Once he was gone and in prison, there was an adjustment period. The toddler was just instantly happier (he’d been having night terrors). The 8yo was a bit angry, easily distracted, and a few other things that he normally wasn’t. It lasted a couple of months at most. He and I had a talk about choices and hurting people- nothing graphic and I certainly didn’t name names. The unwavering theme was, “Daddy made bad choices and can’t live with us anymore/has to go to prison.”

The only symptom that really lingered was he seemed DESPERATE for male interaction. Any male- so at that stage he was very vulnerable- I watched him like a hawk, I didn’t date, and was very selective about what males were around our family. Each of my sisters had a boyfriend. One is a great guy, one is a douche. As time went one, my 8yo gravitated towards the decent bf and started avoiding the douche. It was like a sign that he was healing and getting “over” the traumas inflicted by his “father.”

I have a father who is a good and decent man- he just has physical limitations that make it hard for him to rough and tumble or run around the yard. But my dad has tried really hard to bond with the boys- and he has. They are very close to their grandpa. And the decent bf is still around- TG my sister FINALLY dumped the douche! LOL I think having stable male role models around them (whom I am not romantically involved with- so there isn’t that “competition” for attention) made a difference.

My 3yo told me the other day he wanted a daddy. (Think DEER IN HEADLIGHTS). I managed to say, “Some people have mommy’s and daddy’s, some people have a mommy OR a daddy. YOU have a mommy, and grandma and a grandpa who love you very much. Not everyone has that.” Then he pointed to a ballplayer on the tv and said he’d like THAT ballplayer to be his daddy. LOL. I laughed, not only is that ballplayer too young for me, I think his current wife would object. Then there is that whole pesky “he doesn’t know I exist” thing. 🙂

I think that stability is key. Without the constant conflict of their “father’s” nonsense and my living my life very carefully and peacefully, my sons have been able to feel secure and just be little boys. The xs would never have “allowed” that. Today is another day I am glad he’s gone. Thanks for this topic- it’s been a tough week for me all around and this reminded me of the things I’ve done RIGHT lately. (I’d also like to mention I had/have a very supportive family. I don’t think we’d be as far along as we are without them.)

Maybe we also need case studies of kids who were ok and better without one parent to go with the “how to spot a lying sack of poo in YOUR courtroom.”

Ox Drover

I’ve given this some more thought.

Since judges are all attorneys—and have practiced SOME kind of “law” before they are appointed or elected to office, that also means that they are POLITICIANS. We all know about our “politicians”(in MY opinion) which is that many of them are VERY narcissistic—it’s kind of like being a salesman I think, the better “persuader” you are, the better “salesman” (sellling YOURSELF) the more likely to get the position.

They have NO training, education, etc. in psychology even if they have training in “family LAW”—-and we know who wrote the laws–yep, POLITICIANS, many times more than not, they too are LAWYERS without training or education in anything except LAW.

I always go back to Dr. Amy Castillo, the “poster child” of a woman crying to a judge against HER PSYCHOPATH’S THREAT TO KILL HER CHILDREN—-and what did the “judge” do? He gave the PSYCHOPATH VISITATION, so the Psychopath KILLED THE CHILDREN, just like Dr. Castillo told the judge he would.

Judge: “OOPS!!! So Sorry, I just followed the law, I’m guiltless”
Dr. Castillo: “Yes, but my kids are still dead.”

The judges are totally immune from any CONSEQUENCES of their “decisions.” If they make a “mistake” OTHER PEOPLE GET THE CONSEQUENCES.

Our advocereal form of law with the parents “fighting” over the child like they are a couple of dogs fighting over a bone is part of the problem. It isn’t who is “right” but who can hire the best and biggest WOLF or PIT BULL as a stand in for them in the court fight.

Another thing that makes me upset is that a person is PRESUMED TO BE TELLILNG THE TRUTH UNDER OATH—well, we know how TRUTHFUL a psychopath is—under oath or not!

Still no ANSWERS in my head, just more questions and more problems with the system, but it does concern me very much.


The best thing I ever did for my youngest son was to get the psychopath father out of his life completely. I dedicated 12 years of my life to it. It was worth every cent and every minute. When my son turned 12 the court recognised his desire not to see the psychopath parent. Until that time a patriarchal society rules that the child does not know what is best for him. It seemed to me that I had to do somersaults, climb mount Everest and walk on water to get rid of the deviants and psychopath people in the courts and out to win this battle. I left no stone unturned. My whole life for that time was getting the psychopath father out of our lives.
It worked. My youngest son is not a psychopath. He is a beautiful kind hearted gentleman who remembers how it was when his father still terrorised us. Today we don’t even know where the psychopath father lives. We havn’t known since my son was 13. He is now 20 and we love it that way.
My older two children are the victim of their psychopath father who has always been a big part of their lives.. My oldest daughter IS a psychopath. I only just acknowledged this after 30 years of hell.
My middle son is incapable of intimacy, having been raised mostly by the psychopath since the age of 12. He is lonely, an island having had to be so to survive.
Women have no say when it comes to the rights of their children, until the child is 12, in Australia. Up until then the courts rule and the courts are made up of men. So whilst it makes no difference what I say, I will say it anyway.
1. Pedophiles, psychopaths and rapists are incurable. They are addicted to their behaviours and they havn’t found a cure for them yet. So they will DEFINITELY abuse again. The only question involved is : will it be today or tomorrow?
2. Fathers are not fathers unless they are loving, supportive, nurturing people who love their children and do the best they can with what they have to give their children an opportunity to be loving (of themselves first) and caring useful functional citizens in society.
Anything less is not a father. It has nothing to do with blood. As Oxy says, “ABUSE is thicker than WATER!!”
3. The majority of mentally ill people go undiagnosed. So they cannot parent their children properly. The diagnosed ones have case managers in Australia, who stay in close contact with the families. However, in Australia, “DOCS” or the “dept of community services” that are supposed to intervene in these situations have an EXTREMELY bad reputation. This is due to inadaquate filtering and training of their staff.
4. The state of South Australia has a very well known ring of wealthy judges, politicians, magistrates and policemen who are called “The Family”. It is said that they are responsible for most of the unsolved pedaphilia and cold cases of children missing. “The Three Beaumont Children” went missing well over twenty years ago in South Australia. “The family” has been going since then.
5. It is impossible to infiltrate because the psychopaths/pedophiles/murderers are all in positions of power and wealth.
End Of Story.



Ox Drover

Dear Tilly,

Unfortunately abuse, corruption and psychopaths are in every country, not just yours.

That’s why there is LF and that is why as we learn and help teach others and make them aware, even though we don’t eliminate all the abuse and corruption, we do make a dent in it….however tiny.

Hope you have a great day!!!


I would like to point something out. I have seen several examples of posts that claim certain positions and occupations are made of mostly, if not entirely of narcissists/sociopaths. I think that is risky. It’s a generalization that is not helpful. I personally am in sales–and I know that just because that is my occupation it does NOT make me a narcissist. I think the same is true of lawyers, judges, politicians, police officers, etc. Just because we choose a certain career does not automatically point to a diagnosis. Being in sales for me has been a great way for me to have flex time with my daughter and to help other people. Maybe that is not the type of sales person that this group has been in contact with, but we do exist.


that was me that made the sales person comment. I’m soooo sorry, it was a generalization about marketing in general. Please forgive my foot in mouth disease.

You are right, any job can be done well and with integrity and any job can be done in P-mode. There is always a choice. We can sell a quality product to someone who will benefit from it or we can lie and distort in order to maximize profit at the expense of the buyer.

So please accept my apology.

But can we still make fun of politicians? 🙂


No worries, skylar. 🙂 And we can absolutely make fun of politicians!

Ox Drover

Dear hopingtoheal,

Ns and Ps tend to “cluster” in certain occupations, but that does not mean there are NO “good” people in those occupations, not at all. It simply means that like in criminals there are a much higher percentage of psychopaths than there are in the general population, more drug addicts that are psychpaths than people who are not drug addicts, but it doesn’t even mean every criminal or every drug addict is a psychopath.

Because psychopaths are WILLING to lie to sell something, they make great salespeople in some cases, even very successful.

Any occupation that allows the psychopath’s particular “talents” (the ability to lie for example) to make them more “successful” or a position of power over others, such as cops and prison guards tends to attract these people in higher numbers than the “general population.”

I have done sales myself and am successful if I BELIEVE IN THE PRODUCT, but cannot sell something I don’t believe in. Psychopaths can sell gold covered lead bars as “pure gold” because they are willing to cheat people and to lie.

So please don’t think we think that ALL or even the majority of sales people (or cops, etc) are psychopaths, just a higher percentage! (((hugs))))


Yes, of course they are in EVERY country. And even when we have known for over twenty five years that it is “THE FAMILY” in the pedophile capital of Australia in South Australia, that they run the entire Australian pedophile ring, even then business is booming and there is nothing we can do about it.


I want to hear more about your art.
You have so much passion and I would love to hear about how you are reflecting it in your art. Our job is to spread the word about P’s. Your medium is your art. let us know how its going.

kim frederick

Don’t know where to post this. I have to rant. Tonight on Jane Valez Mitchell I heard about a mother and her 5 children being murdered. Their throats were all cut. The youngest child was 11 mos. old, the oldest 9 years. There had been a history of domestic abuse for the last 10years. Florida dept. ofchildren and families had been to the house only three weeks prior, and found that there was no problem. Mom had supper in the oven the kids were clean…no problem. Dad had been arrested in Jan. of this year, but apearantly Mom begged the Judge to drop charges, saying Dad was really a good guy, and she was willing to give him a second chance.

They arrested dad in Haiti, so I’m not sure on the particulars, whether Mom is Haitian, too, so don;t want to speculate, but my point is this: We need to reach victims way before they are brain washed and helpless. I identify with this victim. I understand the psychology of being so alone and isolated,(even if it’s only in your own mind) that you hold on, desparatly to your abuser feel helpless, see no way out.

I remember being grateful when my abuser returned after being gone for 3 or 4 days, the rent was due, the lights were being turned off, but he had 3 cigarettes and a can of pork and beans. I’m not kidding! The world doesn’t understand this, they say what is wrong with that woman, they want to blame her, too.

How can we educate the public so they understand the nature of this sickness? How do we quite blaming the victim and intevene, even when they don’t want our help? Do you all know what I mean. Maybe if this Mom had any support system, to help her find her strength, self worth, hope…this would not have happened. God bless lovefraud.


Kim, perhaps we need to form a non-profit specifically for informing people about narcissism and all the forms that it comes in. When you consider how it affects EVERYONE, there shouldn’t be a shortage of funds.


I don’t get it.


Why can’t I express my opinion about fathers and abuse?


Studies show that if a father is abusing the mother, then half of the time he’ll be abusing the kids, as well. Even if the kids aren’t being directly abused, DV against the mother is BY DEFINITION emotional abuse of a child. In some states, “men” have been charged with child abuse for abusing the mother in front of the kids.

Of course the kids should be taken away if there’s physical/emotional abuse/coercion of the mother – it’s a sign that the man is willing to abuse kids.

When there’s sexual coercion in relationships, it calls into question whether there CAN be valid consent after the incident of coercion. In the example when the woman consents to sex 3 days after being coerced, I’m not sure that “consent” is valid.

Coercion created power difference is no different than intrinstic power differentials (therapist/patient, teacher/student, or guard/inmate) in adult sexual relationships. In both professional sexual boundary violations and sexually coercive relationships, the abuser always has power over the victim.

Ox Drover

Good point Brian,

Your mention of guard/prisoner brought to mind though that there are SOME exceptions to this. My P-son was having an affair (he told me, but I saw the two of them together in a prison visitation room and could see the “sparks” flying between their eyes) with a female major at his prison.

I know he was getting a high from the sexual affair and also from the manipulation of this woman, but it definitely was NOT him being coerced. Of course she did have some “power” over him if she got mad at him, but at the same time, he had some “control” and”power” over her too. Plus, the fact that if they had been found out, SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH A FELONY!

In general, you are right though, with rare exceptions. Unfortunately, “emotional” abuse (which I think is far more common and as or more damaging than physical abuse) is very rarely prosecuted.

Thanks for your post!


It has been my experience that ps often render the whole problem of parenthood moot by their own poor parenting. My ex-business partner P salesperson likes to boast that she has six children (she uses them to elicit sympathy as part of her business con). The problem is she only really has custody of three … two were taken away from her by the father (good for him) … and one was given up for adoption. When I say “custody”, I mean she is directly in the lives of three of her children however she rarely cares for them. Usually, she has a suckered-in friend do that. Parenthood requires a degree of selflessness she simply doesn’t have.

That doesn’t mean, however, she’s not abusing them. Simply by being part of their lives she’s abusing them. Domination, destruction and debasement are all part of the daily lives of the psychopath. They wouldn’t know how to have a healthy relationship. And they wouldn’t care to try. The moment one of her sons from the first marriage had a child, he wisely restricted her from any access to the infant. She then bought the child’s name as a domain name and turned it into a porn site. Yup, psychopaths tend to mine their own harbors and then forget where the trip wires are.

P’s only appear to be extremely good at selling things because they have no reticence when it comes to lying and deceit. However, my P business partner always sabotaged herself with her own greed and arrogance. Thus, non-Ps actually tend to be better at sales in the long-run because they have empathy for their customers. Selling stuff when done right is the art of helping fulfill the needs of the person. You need empathy and compassion to do that.


If you’re going to joke, use an emoticon!

If you’re not joking….
I didn’t say what you couldn’t talk about, I was only asking you for an update on your art. I’m very excited about your art work and about how you were painting P’s!


Sorry, I am very defensive right now due to my P art teacher. But you know, I hate talking about it because those articles where they say “you must be negative inside to attract so many P’s around you” really give me the sh#ts! Isn’t it enough that we go through all this crap to be then labeled “your insides are negative so its all your fault anyway, you attracted it because of whats in your mind and heart and you will get the same until you fix it because you are the GREAT UNWASHED and so until you change you will just have to put up with psychopaths for the rest of your life. After all WE have changed and we are doing so much better than you are because we are not NEGATIVE and we have cleansed our KARMA and we are so positive that the sun shines out of our bums!”
Well you know what? I reckon that is just inverted egotism. I reckon that its the LAST thing a victim of a psychopath NEEDS to hear and I reckon if my insides are negative and theirs are positive they have forgotten what the point is. They have forgotten what a shit of a thing that is to say to someone who is trying to survive in this unjust world.
I did every damn course and Catherine Ponder affirmation on the Law of attraction and all that crap that exists. And all it does is turn you into the perfect sitting duck for the next glib, shallow, power hungry, exploiting, controlling, manipulative, empty, hateful, ambitious, no empathy, no love, narcissitic, vengeful, driven,selfish to the core, hardened,vicious, lying, murderous creep of a psychopath anti social deviant sociopath, transparent, hole for a heart, retarded, moron that there is.


MY ART? well, my psychopath teacher wants me to paint a massive canvas of myself as a psychopath. She has NO CLUE. So I will paint my inner psychopath that she is dealing with as we speak. TOWANDA!! And all you pussy positives can go duck yourself! LOL!!!


Or maybe I will paint my psychopath daughter and she will thing it is me anyway.
Point is, my negativity did not create the gentically disposed psychopaths around me. On the contrary, my loving heart and desire to be kind and good and caring created an opportunity for Ps to use it. I never gave up believing in human beings basic goodness for 54 years. Is that NEGATIVE?? I don’t think so. And was not a co-dependent al anon care giving rescuer iether! I did the right thing and I was positive and my insides are as clean as yours Oh Mighty Washed ones! I don’t believe in Karma because I have lived 54 years and never ever seen it once. I believe in a Higher Power of my own understanding. Kama is just a load of it. And maybe i will just paint the King with no clothes on and the P teachers head on him. Because she really is just a big dick anyway.


Nothing like a good dose of shame and guilt “your insides are negative darling, that is why you attract psychopaths into your life. however, I don’t have any in my life anymore dear, because I am holier than thou and God has washed my insides so they are positive . You, however, are just going to have to be patient for another ten years or so, and we will check to see if another psychopath has entered your life, to decide whether your insides are clean or not, pet.”
There is no INSIDE there is ONLY OUTSIDE. Ha ha


I so wish I could meet you in person. You and I would set up a covert, revenge for hire company. All the victims of sociopaths would come to us for dirty deeds done dirt cheap!
But meanwhile…
WTF? what do you mean she wants you to paint a canvas as yourself as a sociopath? What exactly did she tell you to paint? This is very interesting news! Does everyone else have to do this? or did she single you out?

OK, I have an idea. paint your self portrait of when you were an infant, wearing only a diaper. All angelic and sweet, charming to a fault – wrapped in a boa constrictor and reaching for forbidden fruit! You will win every prize.

The infantile emotion is the root of a psychopath and if she doesn’t get it tell her she needs to bone up on what a psychopath is.


Tilly, tell your teacher that I said that she’s clearly never dealt with a psychopath. Only the innocent come up with psychobabble crap like that which might apply when you’re dealing with legitimate human beings with souls but definitely not to psychopaths. There is no “them” in there for you to find, as you know, there’s only animal cunning and their latest appetite.

Ox Drover

TILLY, you know I love you, and this is am “I love you” BOINK!!!!

THAT IS NOT WHAT DONNA’S ARTICLE WAS SAYING!!! You took the whole thing out of context and are focusing on one part OUT OF CONTEXT. the article was NOT blaming you for “attracting” the Ps because you are at fault.

What she WAS saying was that if we are not HEALTHY emotionally we will attract the VULTURES that psychopaths are. Just lilke a sick cow lying down on her broken leg will soon have a bunch of vultures around her because they sense she is not healthy and they move in for the KILL>

Psychopaths are the same darn way. When we are DOWN, negative, etc. they hone in on that and sense we are weak and vulnerable. That’s when they attack. Does NOT mean we caused it, or that we are to blame. So, if we are reeling from the wounds from one psychopath, another smells the blood and comes hunting, just like a shark or a lion.

Now you get your panties out of your crack! Love, Oxy

Now you go stand in the corner and write 500 times, “I will not get so cranky over something I read”




How many weeks to go with the psychopath teacher & comrades? 4-5 weeks by my calculations.
The end is near. Do NOT go rogue at this late stage. You have made it this far.
Just ride it out, get your grades, and get the heck out of there.


Oxy is right Tilly,
when they smell blood they go crazy and attack. As soon as I came running to my parents’ home when I left my xP, my P-brother and P-sister and P-BIL ATTACKED. I went NC with the sis and her husband but they wouldn’t stop trying. Then my P-bro attacked me physically, scratched HIMSELF, and called the police with a Domestic Violence report and they took me to jail. My parents cried, but they didn’t protect me, they didn’t kick him out and they didn’t get me a lawyer. They are phony P’s. BUT NOW I KNOW, IT WAS MY FAULT FOR SHOWING EMOTION AROUND A P!! I showed fear and anger and hurt over my break up with my exP. It made the P-siblings want more and they kept trying until I went into BORING MODE. It calms them down. I’M NOT KIDDING, TILLY. They are like animals! if you are really, really, calm, they also instinctively calm down. But you have to go ice cold and gray as a rock. Show NOTHING.

Then, with that as our cover, we can start our revenge for hire business.

Maybe that’s why they say, “revenge is a dish best served cold.” LOL.


what is really interesting is that my parents instinctively told me not to tell my P-brother what was happening. They KNEW that it was dangerous. They understand, instinctively, what he is. They keep him in a little room off of the laundry area and he rarely comes out. Well, there really was no way to keep from telling him because my eXP kept coming around looking for me. But I shouldn’t have bared my soul to him. I knew that he was a narcissist, but I didn’t have a complete understanding of what that means. I thought it meant that he had emotional problems but could also rationalize and feel. He cannot and does not. He smelled blood and wanted more. The overwhelming emotions of pain that I showed made his evil nature rear it’s ugly head. Now that I am a gray rock, he stays in his room again.

This is such an ugly way to live.


Sorry Oxy:
As a matter of fact we attract them more when we apear popular and confident and pretty and stong! A challenge! A handbag to win! A ticket to the social does around town!
Point being, whilst the cow with the broken leg is easier, the cow leading the herd has more contacts and is just as an attractive bait for a psychopath.
Its only after dramatic life changing traumas that any person can expect to study and try to work out what the red flags are so it doesn’t happen again.
FOR ME (and only for me)Its nothing to do with “my investment” I have in being a victim or whatever, for me I believe that has NOTHING to do with it!!! anything that moves and has a pulse is bait for a psychopayth!!!!
And to say different adds to MY trauma of trying to recover.
I have the right to stay cranky if it is helping me deal with my psychopathic teacher and stand up FINALLY and SAY what I believe!! Because I can’t say any of that in my psychopath teachers class.
My painting is the size of a wall. Oil on canvas. I got the idea from that poor woman who came onto Lovefraud (that I still pray for ), who’s psychopath partner committed suicide, in front of her, as trhe final insult to torture her forever. She was spilling her heart out when the psychopath “pianoman or one of them” came on and stuck the knife straight into her heart. She left immediately without a trace.
Well I have a wallsized portrait of MY FACE and me with a big SMILE on my face, holding the GUN to my head. But the gun is not AT my head. THE GUN IS SLIGHTLY TILTED UPWARDS because I am only pointing the gun at my head to torture the people around me who love me. So the art teacher gets to call my painting her “inner psychopath” and is happy. And behind her backI get to call my painting, “The psychopath-this will hurt you, more than me”.
Sorry i am so mad at the moment. But this is the only way I can survive this whole nightmare… 6 weeks and counting, (we have a holiday in between, hence the extra time). xoxo


Rosa and oxy know me well enough to know that I am only “going rogue” here on Lf because it is seeping out of me because i have the psychopath teacher Monday Tuesday and Thursday for four hours straight, each time. She writes down and comments when I walk in or go out of the room. She filmed us (with no notice) presenting our POWERPOINT presentation last week. She said, “I am filming this to go home and make a satire out of it to send you all up in a home movie”.
I said” Oh, sorry but I can’t be filmed today as i don’t have my make up on.” She said, Oh thats ok Tilly, then you fail.”
So of course i let her film me.
She seduces the men. And terrorises the women.
Their aint nuthin funny or pretty about it, because i have her for four hours today.
Rosa and Oxy WOULD BELIEVE the shocking things she has done this semester to try and destroy some of us. Especially me. Two women have left because of her. When they told the other teachers they CLOSED RANKS AROUND HER and they girls went and the psychopath IS STILL HERE OF COURSE!!
She is particularly mad at me because i have made an arrangement to have another teacher MARK 3/4 of my work. I am the only one who has been able to manipulate this. It came as a direct result of Rosa’s DRY SOCKET idea .
off I go now to enjoy my marvelous class with the p. You can hear a pin drop in her class for four hours.
fun, fun, fun.


Tilly/”Eminem” 🙂

You go, girl!!!! Vent all you want!!!

Better to get it all out here, as opposed to the art class or with family members, right???

“Anything that moves and has a pulse is bait for a psychopath.”
So true. Can we get that copyrighted and made into bumper stickers?

“She is particularly mad at me because I have made an arrangement for another teacher to MARK 3/4 of my work. I am the only one who has been able to manipulate this.”


Sorry Melody23, I have been dealing with this university teacher who is a level 10 incredibly intelligent psychopath. Rosa and Oxy and all the guys here on lovefraud are the only reason I am still in the class. They have been helping me get thu it for ages as I have all but left quite a few times. They have taught me how to stay in the class and get what I need (a degree). I think God has put this teacher in my path while I have the support of LoveFraud as my final ultimate test. There is no way I could withstand it without the love and support and priceless information they have given me. I have come here so often beaten and Oxy yells “you can do it! get up you big mouthed old broad!!” and Rosa tells me the best joke I have ever heard and then gives me specific instructions how to get “dry socket” syndrome so I can get someone else to mark my work. And of course Kathleen gave me the ten commandment laws to deal with psychopaths when you have to. My biggest one that Kathleen gave me that I have had to chant is the one that she said, “chant: psychopaths will continue to try to get an emotional hold over you”
This is what I am about to have happen again for four hours.
My degree is worth it, because now I have someone else marking the majority of my work. But the condition is I attend all the classes and put up with humiliation, degradation,abuse, etc.


Thankyou Rosa:
I love you!!xoxo


“You and I would set up a covert, revenge for hire company.” You should come and see Oxy and Rosas and my pig farm! You are officially invited!



If you used the “Dry Socket” situation, then you are not only a GENIUS, but a GREAT ACTRESS, too. 🙂

Ox Drover


It’s okay to RANT and VENT, just please don’t point the “gun” at your friends here! You know we love you and are here for you! (((hugs)))) Thanks for explaining. Love oxy


Sorry Oxy, I didn’t know i was doing it myself until you pointed it out. Guess what? I am in class right now! HA HA!

Ox Drover

Dear Tilly,

Hope your class time wasn’t too bad (at the time I am writing this it was yesterday now) I know it is irritating to be around these creeps, and you get “triggered” sometimes into anger etc. but it concerns me when you go “walk about” emotionally over it. I’ve done the same thing “back when” stress was really high but the most important thing to me is to NOT strike out at others who are my friends just because I am upset or stressed out by the psychopath.

Forgiving myself for the striking out I did was probably the hardest hurdle I’ve had to go over so far in my healing, so far. I’m not saying this to “boink”you, but just to make you aware. ((((hugs))))) Have a better day today!


Thankyou Oxy.
I am so sorry the minister thing didn’t work out, I hope you take extra time to nurture yourself and release some anger somehow. I do not “hate” anyone on lovefraud (except pianoman for what he did to that lady) and i AM NOT POINTING A GUN TO ANYONE. i FEEL LIKE WHATEVER i SAY IS WRONG HERE AT THE M0MENT SI i WILL HAVE A BRIEF HOLIDAY FROM COMMMENTING TO ANYONE EXCEPT ROSA AND MATT AS I AM TOO OVERSENSITIVE TO THE MISCOMMUNICATIONS . STAY SAFE OXY. i LOVE YOU AND THANKYOU FOR ALL THE HELP YOU HAVE GIVEN ME. bACK SOON.


As we post, there is an important fact that we must all keep in mind. Here it is: Linguists estimate that 65 percent to 90 percent of the meaning in human communication is transmitted via nonverbal cues—tone of voice, facial expression, body language. None of these cues, of course, are available over a computer. That means when we post written comments on the Lovefraud blog, 65 percent to 90 percent of our meaning may be missing.

So what happens? Without the benefit of those nonverbal cues, people interpret a post to mean what they want it to mean.

Sociopaths take advantage of this phenomenon all the time. When sociopaths are sending flowery e-mails that are full of lies, we interpret the e-mails as truth, because we want them to be true. We believe what we want to believe.

Assume honorable intentions

Here on Lovefraud, this can go either way, depending on the reader’s frame of mind. If a reader is looking for consolation, he or she may interpret another poster’s advice as supportive. If a reader is on edge—a common occurrence with victims of sociopaths—he or she may interpret another poster’s advice as being critical.

I ask everyone to assume that all of us are posting with the best, most honorable intentions, and that we are here to support each other. If at any time you feel that a blogger is not posting with honorable intentions, please let me know.

We are a group of opinionated people, and there are going to be times when we disagree. That’s fine. I think an animated discussion of different points of view is healthy. However, all discussions should be respectful, and no one should be personally attacked.



I couldn’t agree with your first post more. I am disgusted that the courts are so very concerned with paternal rights when a man has no desire to be a father, has never been a father to the child, has a serious personality disorder and is abusive.

What shocks me, is that the courts don’t consider it child abuse if a father tries to kill a baby and the mother while the baby is in utero (which is what my exS did). I think it’s because the law does not want to mess with the messy gray areas, but instead, they mess up children’s lives. I think it is child abuse because my child would not even be alive if I had not gotten to the hospital in time after the attack and if my doctors had not saved him. To, me, it does not matter that he was in utero.


The courts need to be much more concerned with children’s rights than parental rights.

Lovefraud is being upgraded. Comments and forum posts are temporarily disabled. Dismiss

Send this to a friend