Where we find psychopaths, we may find accomplices. There are no shortages of individuals who are ready and waiting to champion psychopaths’ causes or support their agendas. This happens in a variety of circumstances and for a variety of reasons. However, if our brushes with psychopathy came by way of romantic involvement, we may have lived through the experience of having been “replaced.” This is common because relationships with psychopaths do not endure. This doesn’t reflect on us, as we probably once thought. Rather, it is merely a phenomenon that comes with the territory.
Initially, we may have been upset or experience sadness and confusion. However, in time, those feelings tend to subside, especially, as we gain information regarding what we were dealing with and just how psychopaths operate.
We may come to feel bad or concerned for our “replacements” because oftentimes, they are much like us. In spite of the fact that we may feel they played a role in some of the breakdown, over time, we come to understand that they were probably placed under the same “spells” we were. Their beginnings probably looked similar to ours, rich with lies and pity plays. We can often predict what their futures hold and may come to see these individuals as the psychopaths’ pawns or new victims, rather than home-wreckers, as we once thought.
However, there are also times when this is simply not the case. The next person may not have been chosen for the same reasons we were. The new person may not be the victim we suspected, but rather, the accomplice. We may have been busy thinking, “Poor Bonnie,” when we should have been thinking “Bonnie and Clyde.”
What lies ahead for us when Clyde meets Bonnie?
If this happens, we should cut our losses, run quickly, and never look back. However, there are some circumstances which prohibit clean breaks. These situations are slightly more challenging, but we can and must learn how to effectively handle them. When psychopaths enlist other individuals to do their dirty work, and this happens consistently, we must brace for a bit of a wild ride. Why? Ask what normal, decent person would want to be an accomplice. A reasonable and healthy person would probably pass on this type of involvement. As a result, dealing with both Bonnie and Clyde can be somewhat exhausting. Wrangling this dysfunctional duo can take practice and patience.
Try to maintain perspective on both of them. This helps immensely as we muddle through completely false accusations, rampant projection, name calling, set up’s, lies, possible police involvement, and potentially even frivolous law suits. Frankly, these examples may only be the tip of the iceberg and we may have to consider our physical safety, as well.
When they launch attacks against us and/or our friends and family members, it will feel wrong and perverse because it is, but we must not lower ourselves in their battles. There may be times when we react in various, less than perfect ways, as we work to grasp what is occurring, but rest assured, time and experience are the best teachers.
How do they choose their accomplices?
Psychopaths look for what they can use in people. Their accomplices fill a need. At the same time, the psychopaths may be filling one or more of their needs too. We must also consider the possibility that they may have personality disorders themselves. Regardless, they tend to feel that they are special or have been chosen for legitimate reasons. In reality, they simply possess usable traits or qualities, just like anyone else psychopaths target.
What does set typical accomplices apart, however, is their propensity for seeing their roles as fun, exciting, or even entertaining, where others would refuse to engage in such behaviors. They may feel that they are helping the psychopaths attain twisted forms of justice. Their roles become obvious, especially in cases where the psychopaths or individuals with psychopathic traits, are legitimately incapable of some of the “work” the accomplices do. If and when we dare question what seems as plain as day, we should be prepared to watch the accusations fly. We must be ready for anything and let nothing surprise us.
What do we do when an accomplice is involved?
We must re-train out brains to think differently than they would in normal situations where we were not repeatedly being manipulated, framed, or harassed. We must accept that the interactions will not be pleasant and realize that “nice” is out of the question. It’s not part of their plan, even if it is what we desire. We must also learn to stop seeking approval from people who do not matter and they do not matter.
They do not like us and that will not change. They are not looking to improve any part of these particular situations at hand, as they may claim, either. Any of our attempts to encourage reasonable communication will fail. The only genuine portion of their agendas is their pursuit of our demise. Therefore, we must examine exactly who we are dealing with and realize the lack of value attached to what they “think.” It’s jumbled and bizarre. Let it go.
Additionally, we must acknowledge that their exchanges are intended to make us look wrong or unstable. Accepting this fact allows us to function without the burden of wondering what’s going on or searching for answers as to why they are doing what they are doing. It’s the disorder speaking. Look no further.
They will likely inform us that we are “sick,” “disturbed,” or “in need of mental help.” We must take it with a grain of salt. They want us to become upset by their behaviors. If we do, they can blame us for our “instability” or “erratic behavior.” Don’t reinforce their false accusations and assertions. Refuse to engage in any form of “back and forth.” It accomplishes nothing productive.
Next, stop, breathe, and steer clear of lengthy defenses. That’s where they want us. We must not allow that. Exercise extreme self control. Over time, as we learn and they no longer matter, this becomes easier. While still feeling emotional or hurt, this may take great effort, but that’s ok. It’s worth it.
Understand that in these situations, we are often faced with two dysfunctional people whose common bond is their hatred for us. Their relationship may have been formed on that hatred or continue to be fueled by it. It’s unfortunate when “settling the score” is the glue, but it happens and it’s a recipe for disaster unless we come understand and act accordingly.
Recognize our strength and give ourselves credit
Though things may seem ridiculous and endless while in the heat of the moment with these folks, we should remind ourselves not to internalize their words or actions. Think about how they look to everyone who is not them or those immediately involved with them. Guaranteed, it’s not “normal.” We must take comfort in who we are. We must believe that even if this enters our world, it need not define us. We should take a moment to recognize our strengths and another to give ourselves credit. We may even get to the point, when we can shake our heads in dismay at their actions and truly pity them (if we care to even spend our time or thoughts on the matter.) It really is sad that anyone would choose to conduct their lives in such fashions.
We should treat ourselves well and keep ourselves healthy, emotionally and otherwise. It is easy for us to get wrapped up in someone else’s “crazy.” However, we should try to get in touch with and then stay in touch with ourselves. We should do the things that make us feel “normal,” like the people we were prior to these experiences. When we do, we are better able to visualize ourselves being more than fine, if we are not already.
My son’s P father presents himself as a victim quite often. That’s just a manipulative ploy on his part, such as, “I am too sick and disabled to understand this. Can’t you accept this paper the way it is? I’ve put so much into dealing with this already.”
When we were involved, back when I still fell for these kinds of lines, he wouldn’t refer to certain people by name. They would be “him” or “her” with the big sighs and a sad, puppy dog face. Poor baby! So troubled by these despictable people that he cannot even bring himself to state their names! How could they treat such a wonderful guy like that?
Stupid me would infer whatever I wanted from that – oh yes! I knew how he was suffering. I knew the type, blah, blah, blah – not realizing that I was being manipulated. I was doing EXACTLY what he wanted.
I wanted to rescue him. I wanted to be important to him. All this, because it was how I was seeking value at the time (not grasping that one’s sense of self-worth must be an internal thing and not based on external approval.)
I’m not sure if this kind of manipulation that my son’s P father uses so often would qualify as a “pseudo victim” because if I am reading these posts correctly, the pseudo victim doesn’t understand that he/she is playing the victim and is unconsciously refusing to get help for him or herself. Am I correct that they keep putting themselves into situations where they are being used and abused, but can’t see it?
Martyrs would be “victims” as well – the ones who always feel obligated (big sigh) to step up to the plate to clean up the mess because (big sigh, again,) who else is going to do that?
Would all of these be willing partners with a P? I would think there are other things going on as well. It’s not unreasonable or foolish to have hope that somebody will get help for themselves. As we all know, Ps are gifted at exploiting seemlingly normal human behavior and twisting it into their advantage in ways that regular people would not do.
Going back to my son’s P father, he loves presenting himself as a victim, but if you know the man, it’s obvious that he’s just playing to the room. It’s all an act, but because he is so smooth and subtle, unless you have had repeated experiences with him or made a study of his behavior, what he does easily slips by most people.
The guy has no internal feelings of note. How could he feel sorry for himself? He’s a narcissist. He can flip in a second into somebody who has only contempt for an individual. I’ve seen him do that many times, and I used to admire him for being in control of the situation. I simply had no clue as to what he was really doing.
I do know that whatever he does, it is always for his agenda. I think it’s a double-thrill for him that he can get people to do things for him as easily as he does. It’s a perk.
Sometimes, people DO lash out at them, but only because they drive people to that point by attacking first. But that is what the spaths WANT us to do. That way, they can play their favorite role: the victim.
It’s the 180 rule. They want to trade places with us, so they victimize us and then call themselves the victim. Classic scapegoating. Girardian theory explains it all so clearly. It’s what spaths have been doing since the beginning of civilization.
Girard says that all myths are based on a murder and a lie, the murder of the scapegoat and the lie told to cover it up (the lie that the scapegoat deserved it).
I think that all myths point to spaths.
Oxy…I think you are on to something with your pseudo victim identification education idea. I can think of a few possible behaviors that are different from actual victims already, but the psychopaths can be crafty and can often blend. Maybe an article on pseudo victims is something to think about writing because it could keep “normals” from becoming involved with psychopaths or help them deal with things if it is too late. This could pertain to situations with or without accomplices – simply pseudo victims, in general.
GS1, trailblazer….thanks! This is an important area that we should look at because it happens. You are strong to pursue justice after all these years. It’s funny, because they are good, but not that good. Eventually, they seem to enrage the judges. They often trip themselves up and don’t even realize it.
As far as “one lies and the other one swears to it,” I think you are right on. I also think that is how they create their own realities that others buy into. When that happens, it is right to bring the truth to light as best we can, like you did, even when there were minimal opportunities for words. We must refute with facts, because their words are empty, but unless we tell all, the “psychopathic fiction” can take over.
Skylar, so true. We ALL fell into the traps of behaving as they wanted us to, at one time. Had we not, we wouldn’t be here right now. My material would have been exhausted a long time ago too. Text books and behavior coursework can only take us so far. When we tried to “fix” and “work things out,” we played right into their hands. I seriously think that in my case, my individual literally said to himself, “watch this” and then unleashed one sentence or one action that set the ball rolling, over and over and over again. I am certain that this person thought I’d be dead before I’d ever get it. But I did get it….eventually.
Truth, at the time, your P gave you what you wanted. We may have “volunteered,” but we had no clue what we were signing up for. We may “volunteer” by staying too, but as I have written about before, we were invested and decent AND we had no clue what we were really up against. I agree, what would they do without drama? It must come from somewhere, even if they tell you how much they “hate drama.” You are doing great.
Newlife, normal times, normal times, normal times….. Glad you are out of Zombieland. Enjoy!! 🙂
Have a great night guys!!
Linda
Linda,
My last therapist, who was there when my P sister and S mother attacked, said that the reason people believe them is because they believe it themselves.
That’s probably true in some cases, but when my sister was driving my son back to her state, she refused to stop to feed him until they crossed the state line because, she explained, she was afraid of a state trooper pulling up behind them. This was after the judge had granted her ex parte order.
My mother was on the phone once and interrupted herself to ask me about something that happened. I told her and she immediately relayed my response embellished in such a way that I came across as an idiot. I was very upet. I asked her why she did that. Her answer was that she thought her version made the story more interesting. I said, “Yeah, but I sound like a moron.” She shrugged her shoulders and asked, “So what?” My “I don’t like that” fell on deaf ears.
I don’t think we necessarily “volunteer.” I think we’re conditioned both by society and by what we grew up with to be susceptible to certain things, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s our fault or a failure if we enter a relationship expecting to be treated decently and fairly.
A volunteer is somebody who knows the situation and enters into it willingly.
I think it’s very hard to know the situation when a P is involved, especially when we don’t know anything about Ps or if we do, when we don’t realize that we are dealing with on. How many of us have said that if we knew then what we know now, we never would have gotten involved in the matter or with the person. That doesn’t sound like people being too willing to enter into a situation where they know the outcome is that they will get hurt or screwed in some way.
Yes, I do think you’re a trailblazer on this subject. I have never seen it elsewhere. I would very interested in hearing what you’ve seen from your law enforcement days. What do you think the judges would like to know? For instance, when the judge told me that she didn’t know about health insurance, where would anybody go to learn about such a thing? I just happen to work in the industry with a lawyer down the hall. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known how to explain it legally.
There are many nuances when determining who willing participates, unknowingly participates, and who is truly a victim. Victims tend to get lumped together. I really do hope that there is more research and examination into this side of the equation.
Thanks for writing about it. Great topic!
P.S. I never intended to pursue justice for all these years. It initially happened because I was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was pregnant with my son and I wanted to make sure that he would be provided for if I didn’t survive.
Then, as the years went on and my health turned out to be all right, the economy became very rocky. We needed the support. Quitting wasn’t an option.
Now, I see no reason why my son should be denied what he is legally and morally entitled to. It isn’t anybody else’s responsibility except his father’s. Besides, nobody else is stepping forward offering to make up that loss if it should occur.
But, because the P has been persistent and I kept on top of the situation, I now have an amazingly well-documented case of what a P will do and how the system will both support and fail enforcement efforts. None of this would have happened if the P had been honest and met his obligations. Maybe some day I’ll write a book.
Linda, I would like to discuss the pseudo-victims concept with you….and pass some ideas by you.
I know it is difficult to tell who is the “real McCoy” and who is the pseudo-victim. God knows I appeared CRAZY in the midst of the “summer of chaos” in fact, when I went to a new therapist (PhD EMDR) he did this very nice 2 hour intake interview and at the end of the two hours of me telling him “my entire family is out to kill me” he very NICELY AND SWEETLY asked me if I could bring in a witness or someone else to verify what I was telling him. I had been crying for the entire two hours and when he asked me for a witness I began to LAUGH….I said “you think I am a paranoid nut job don’t you?” Then the next appointment I brought in my son D and a stack of court documents backing up what I was saying.
A couple of years later I hired an attorney in Texas (by phone) to fight my son Patrick’s parole hearing and I could tell by his tone of voice he didn’t believe a word of what I said….then I mailed him a foot locker full of documents showing that my son Patrick had sent his ex cell mate to kill me…and he called back and said after he received the evidence “Your son is a badddddd man” (almost in awe) He hadn’t believed me either.
So I think we need to be careful in identifying the “pseudo-victims” from the real McCoys….because the psychopaths CAN put up a really GOOD mask. I don’t think it is Either EASY or QUICK in identifying the real from the fake.
I had one come here to stay a few summers ago….poor pitiful “Pearl” and she had all these problems, was living in her RV tiny motor home with her two dogs and no safe place to park in the big city….no way to work, no place to leave her dogs while she worked, you name it she had all these problems, so I allowed her to come here to park her Mini motor home and a safe place to leave her dogs while she worked,….well, of course she had no intention of getting a job, and she had first one excuse and then another….finally I realized she was a mooch and a con so I asked her to leave, even gave her some gas money to make sure she could have gas enough to clear the state boundary line.
Found out later from some people who previously knew her that yes, indeedy I was right, she was a con—but it took me a while to see that she had NO intention of getting work, or even DOING work that she could have done from her computer without ever having to leave the farm…lots of excuses, but no helping herself.
These things don’t show up quickly though….and without knowing her “back story” it was difficult to tell. That is why knowing people IN CONTEXT —knowing their friends, family, co-workers, etc. is helpful in sorting out the real from the fake I think.
I realize that I have met these pseudo-victims in the past, both professionally and personally. I have dealt with them accepting their tales of woe as genuine, until I realized that they were indeed fakers. Of course when you confront them they scream out in rage at the UNJUST ABUSE you are heaping on their heads by accusing them of X, Y or Z. I even caught “friend” RED HANDED STEALING FROM ME….and I cried for 3 days because I was afraid that I had HURT HER FEELINGS. Talk about inability to set boundaries…LOL but I am learning!
G1S, I also believe that they do believe it themselves. Something I commonly heard as the lies were flying was, “go ahead, hook me up to a lie detector. I’ll pass.” Of course!!! I used to wonder why anyone would say that. Like, hang on, while I get out my handy dandy lie detector. But yes, they believe what they are saying, so why wouldn’t they pass? Early on, I’d fall for it and acquiesce. Shoot…even not so early on I’d give in and wonder if any part of what crossed those lips could be true. They can be very convincing, after all. But, it didn’t take me long to realize that this person clearly had almost everything ALL WRONG, even when he was not lying!! Lies were abundant, of course, but we could both watch the same event take place and his interpretation would be completely different, or at least very different, from what actually happened. I recall being dumbfounded and confused and trying to convince him of reality. Naturally, this led to horrible arguments because that was never going to occur.
As far as shifting stories to outcomes that are more favorable to them, they don’t care if we don’t like what they have to say. With no moral compass to guide them, they do as they please. Others may believe them because normal people don’t just change the stories to suit their purposes. Others assume they are dealing with normal people, at least initially.
As far as “volunteering,” I take responsibility for the fact that I chose involvement, but only to a degree. As you said, had I known the extent of the problem, I would have “cut bait” immediately. Not to mention how caught in the cycle I was.
As far as what judges want to know, I have encountered some very wise ones. Even at that, however, I don’t think they necessarily know what they want to know. That is why I feel educating them on this topic in general is critical. They deal with so much, depending upon the area of law. The specifics on psychopathy in criminal law will look a little different than those in family law. However, the traits, behaviors, and risks will be the same or similar enough for them to make connections. Therefore, having a working knowledge of the disorder will help immensely, in my opinion. Next, just as the rest of the population, once taught the basics, they need to believe that this exists. Law enforcement and the legal system in general tries to rehabilitate. I think this is wonderful when dealing with those who can re helped. It can be disastrous with these folks. I think that is good for them to know. The good news is that I am seeing more and more people get it every day. I know that we may have a long way to go, but I think we are moving in the right direction.
I am glad your health is fine.
Oxy, any of our stories, void of the history and evidence seem C-R-A-Z-Y!!! I get it. There were times when I would try to tell portions of my story and as I was talking, I would think, “stop talking…..” I felt ridiculous and embarrassed that I had been a part of anything so messed up. However, the proof is in the pudding. There is a difference between being paranoid and having legitimate fear, based on the legitimate issues. Once you made your case, I hope the psychologist took you seriously. Again, some of what we experience is so unbelievable that many won’t understand right away. Eventually, it comes. Even a fellow inmate saw your son as a “bad man.”
In fact, stories like these are how I learned my lesson in patience. By nature, I want things done yesterday. I try to be efficient and that often leaves me moving quickly, never stopping, etc. However, in cases with psychopaths, time is on our side.
As far as separating victims who are legit versus those who are not, I think that also takes time. However, no one can hide their pathology forever. Your experience with “Pearl” sounds terrible. Your goodness was exploited. That is what they do and it was wrong. You are right. The whole story is important. If we don’t have access to the whole story, that may make these situations harder to assess. But personally, I can think of a number of things, very early on, that contributed to my knowledge that I was dealing with an accomplice, not another “me.” I do not believe this accomplice initially knew that was her “purpose” or place in the line-up and was also probably lied to and used. At the same time, she had no problem rising to the occasion to fulfill the “duties.” I recognized, after a relatively short time, what was going on. Things were pretty “text book.” Context, behaviors, and their words are critical to our evaluation of these matters.
That did not mean that I knew exactly what to do with what I knew, however. That also had to come in time. Trial and error. Like I mentioned in the article, we have to re-train our brains to not care about those who do not matter. The fact that you were still worried about Pearl’s feelings, for example, in my opinion, speaks volumes about your character and is part of the process. No matter what the psychopaths or pseudo victims do, we don’t want to be like them. So I feel like if we happen to need to occasionally stop ourselves and remind ourselves about who we should feel bad for and who we should not, then that’s ok. You are a good person, so that is where your heart went. When you looked at things as they truly were, you stopped. It’s a process!! That’s for sure. Not to mention, an amazing life lesson.
MUST sleep! I was up writing, happened to check in on here, and now, here I am. Yikes!! Thanks for the great discussion, ladies.
What a terrific discussion!
And, what IS it about the lie detectors and all of that?!
On one level, they are quite aware that the words and assertions that issue from their mouths are false. On the other hand, they speak their untruths to a point where they begin to believe their own fabrications. HOW do these people even walk around without gibbering and drooling on themselves when they’re living such contradictory lives and compartmentalizing every farking aspect?
Just curious because I don’t “get it” as to how someone can simply put this lie into a jar, that one into a jar, and that one into a jar, without eventually dropping the lids or the entire jar to shatter. It’s too much to juggle.
I’m beginning to ramble, so I need more coffee……
Wow! This discussion is timely – for me!
I am fresh out of a relationship that I am trying to understand.
Am feeling much of what is described in the article.
It didn’t take long before my ex gf told me about being sexually abused by a relative when she was little, physically and emotionally abused by her mother, raped – at least twice, ‘entrapped’ by an ex-bf, ‘used’ by another bf for over 7 years and then basically discarded, victimized by a lesbian roomate ( That she went back to again and again.), bereft over the loss of a sibling, allergic to gluten, soy, dairy, etc., suffering from a whole range of ‘mystery’ chest and abdominal pains, and, oh yeah – stalked by the bf who preceded me. In some circumstances we had to keep the lights off in case ‘he might be trying to see into the windows.’ For many of those days I felt like a body guard. After I helped her get a court order against the ex-bf, which involved me going to court with, and doing research for her, she waved a copy of the order at me and said: “See – now I know how to get one of these!” In other words….I was ‘next.’
And yet, according to her I was the one that needed counselling. She refused to stay with me unless I went to counselling – basically in order to figure out why the ‘sex’ wasn’t so good. About half way through our relationship she wanted a certificate from a psychiatrist that I was ‘O-K’. She felt that there had to be something wrong inside my head and at various times diagnosed me as schizophrenic, having Asperger’s , having ADHD, suffering from PTSD, etc. My counsellor met her once and did warn me to be on the lookout for her to ‘project’ onto me. GF refused to go to counselling with me again after that. In her break up letter a few months ago she then claimed she had asked me ‘5 times’ during our relationship to go to couple’s counselling with her. That was a total fabrication.
Whatever was wrong with me then – I am NOW feeling messed-up and suffering through PTSD.
All this while once in a while she would say – ‘Love you , too.’She would also be there when I felt sick or had minor surgery. Those moments really brought out good actions and attention and support from her. But, after those things were over – it was back to the repeating cycles of arguments and make-ups – with me hanging around like a puppy looking for a pat on the head or a snack.
And to this day I truly, sincerely feel love and empathy and sympathy for her and pray for her every day.
Oh- did I mention the ‘couples counselling ‘ she invited me to – AFTER our break? That’s a whole ‘nuther story!
And another thing – that fits with the article: I am active in my community – something of a public figure. I have many good, loyal friends and supporters. And, as to be expected there are people that hate my guts. Well, guess what? Before we broke up I heard she said that she had been communicating with someone that is not one of my friends. She was also becoming highly critical of some of my statements and was even viewing recordings online of debates I had been in.
HEEELLLLPPPPP!
Fixerupper, for what it’s worth, it might be well worth the effort to see if individual counseling with someone that “gets it” would be an option.
I can truly identify with “feeling” the empathy and sympathy for the spath – cripes, I did the same thing at all times! He was SO very, very sad because he never had the support of his family, etc., blah..blah..blah. It was an endless litany of sad events that caused my maternal instincts to protect and nurture to kick into overdrive. I used to feel a strong empathy and sympathy for the exspath.
Today, I feel only contempt for him. I will not entertain a nanosecond of sympathy or empathy for him, his plight, his childhood, or his sad, sad self. We’ve ALL had childhood issues, Fixerupper! Every danged last one of us can look back and point at some type of dysfuction whether it was mild or severe. The difference between spaths and “normal” human beings is that we don’t go around using our dysfunctions as an excuse to bait, lure, snag, and dismantle other people for our own purposes.
As far as “disclosure” on the personal issues, I don’t talk about ANYthing with ANYone, ANYmore. Even if someone is disclosing to me about something going on in their lives, I keep my personal disclosures to a very, VERY limited 2 or 3 people. The exspath was aware that I had survived domestic violence and abuse with the first exspath because I told him these things after he had gained my trust.
Nope – today, NONE of it is open for discussion or even disclosure. I’m just having a tough patch and it is what it is. Nobody needs to know about my past for ANY reason except a strong counseling therapist.
Brightest blessings
Linda,
With respect to the judges wanting to know more and educating them (and I would assume this would apply to the lawyers as well,) what tips can you give us about what we can say, do, or submit that would help us and what should we avoid so we don’t undermine our efforts?
Are there any rules of thumb that lawyers or judges look for that would label us in their minds as the crazy ones or the liars?
Maybe, too, if we knew that, that knowledge would help us know what to present to courts to show the Ps as they really are. I’m not sure how doable that is given my son’s P makes outrageous claims and I am not permitted to present anything to show he isn’t telling the truth.
What sorts of things should we be asking our lawyers to do for us? In other words, is there anything we should be focusing on more or avoiding?
When I started on my child support journey, I was lucky to have found a grassroots group for child support advocacy close to where I was living. They taught me to keep the emotional stuff out of anything I wrote AND to make sure I repeated that this was about the child and his rights, not what a scum the father is.
That helped a lot BUT, as the most recent hearing showed, all the P has to do is deny something and the judge took him at his word. Anybody can write a letter.
I have copies of health insurance cards, subponeaed documents, a hearing transcription, and letters between government agencies and lawyers. I get smug questions from the enforcement people asking if I can prove my statements, and when I supply the documents, they dumped them in the judge’s lap without any explanation. They expected the judge to sort through them. That isn’t reasonable.
So, what should we present and how should the information be assembled? What do they want to see? What would give us creditability, especially over the Ps?
As far as knowing what to tell or not, places like LF and sharing our stories here provide us with opportunities to vent and off-load all this toxicity. We get validated that we not crazy for trying to help. I’ve gotten stronger knowing that I am not the only one who has family members attacking me for the sport of it. I’ve learned to limit what I share to an audience that will understand. The other people, I talk about much less personal things.
But it took a long time to learn those differences and find places of support like LF.
Maybe somebody telling you to hook them up to a lie detector is a tell. I did note, at the most recent hearing, that the P kept buying time by answering a question with a question. And don’t you know that what he finally answered was a lie?
Maybe we should be providing the judges with a list of tells and manipulation tactics?