By | April 13, 2009 55 Comments

Psychopaths more likely to get out of jail

You would think parole boards would know better. After all, they deal with bad guys all day, every day, and they’re supposed to decide when criminals are sufficiently rehabilitated to return to society. But a study released in January found that when psychopaths in Canada’s prisons were up for parole, they were 2.5 times more likely to win conditional release than non-psychopaths.

The study was conducted by Dr. Stephen Porter from Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia and published in the Journal of Legal and Criminological Psychology. It looked at 310 men who spent at least two years in a Canadian prison between 1995 and 1997. Most had committed violent crimes.

Ninety of the men were classified as psychopaths. They had committed significantly more offenses than the non-psychopaths. The psychopathic child abusers among them had far more charges and convictions than non-psychopathic offenders.

Yet the psychopaths won the get-out-of-jail-free card much more often than ordinary criminals.

“Despite their long and diverse criminal records and much higher risk posed to the community, psychopaths appear to be able to convince decision-makers throughout the correctional system that they can be reintegrated into society successfully,” Dr. Porter wrote.

Oscar award winning performances

How did they do it? Charm and crocodile tears. The researcher said they put on a good show.

“They use non-verbal behavior, a ‘gift of gab,’ and persuasive emotional displays to put on an Oscar award winning performance and move through the correctional system and ultimately parole boards relatively quickly, despite their known diagnosis.”

And apparently, it wasn’t just the members of the parole boards who were fooled—it was everyone who had any input into the parole decision.

“I don’t want to pick on the (National) Parole Board,” Porter said in an interview. “The parole board gets all kinds of information therapy reports and case management reports and so on. So psychopaths are probably putting on a good show for everyone.”

What happened after the psychopaths won their freedom? They committed another crime. On average, they offended again and were returned to prison after one year, compared with two years for non-psychopaths.

Let’s not berate ourselves

Dr. Porter says that the parole boards and psychologists need help in dealing with psychopaths.

“We need to acknowledge that training in this area is essential and that objective file information is much more reliable than trying to assess performance in an interview context,” he said.

So here’s the conclusion for us survivors: We should never again berate ourselves for falling for a psychopath. After all, the professionals who dealt with these predators every day, and had access to their criminal files, were just as clueless as we were.

For more information on this study, see:

BBC: Psychopaths’ ”˜early release con’

Ottawa Citizen: Psychopaths use charm, lies to fool parole officials

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Elizabeth Conley

Thanks for bringing these studies to broader notice. We all need to accept the reality that Psychopaths talk rings around almost everyone. Our Ps are going to leave incarceration earlier than other criminals, and they’re going to enjoy broad social support in spite of their awful behavior.

Armed with the truth, we cope better.


Doesn’t surprise me. My S was a non-violent felon. I met him 3 weeks after he was released from prison. But, based on how he scammed his probation officer, I can pretty much tell that he scammed the entire criminal justice system. From the word go.

He managed to convince the judge that he deserved to be sent to a “shock incarceration facility” instead of prison — where he could get “treatment” for his drug addiction. Hell, if any idiot had gone online and goggled his name they would have come up with a string of default judgments for all the scams he had run and all the creditors he defaulted on. He had no discernible employment history. He had a history of being disruptive in school. And on. And on. And on.

But, the judge bought it all. And he only served 10 months of his system. So obviously the shock incarceration officials and the parole board bought his act.

He used to tell me about the various probation department mandated programs he had to attend and how he’d shine the drug counselors and group therapy leaders. He scammed his probation officer from the get-go. He was constantly going out of state with no permission. I now see, in retrospect, that he knew how to pass the drug tests even though he was using. He made a mockery of the criminal justice system.

No, the findings of this study don’t surprise me. What I’d like to know is what percentage of those studied ended up back in the crimnal justice system and how long it took them to end up back in it.

Ox Drover

Well, this is NO SUPRISE TO ME!!!!

The Trojan Horse psychopath that finally went back to prison after a failed attempt to kill my son C after C discovered the affair between him and my son’s wife: Here is his rap sheet (15 pages long)

Multiple drug convictions & sentenced to rehab repeatedly

burgulary of a house,

Multiple convictions of driving either drunk or drugged

EVERY parole he had ever been on was revoked because of new criminal activity.

THREE separate sexual offenses of children, aged 9, 11 and 14 for which he served over 10 years.

Dishonorable discharge from military service

These offenses, totaled 15 pages of offenses and parole revocations.

He was charged this last time ONLY with being a felon in control of a fire arm, given a 5 yr with 2 suspended. He was eligible for parole in about 8 months. I was able to stop that because he was scheduled to go to a half way house which is prohibited by Arkansas law 679. The p-arole board did NOT know he was a sex offender OR they knew and didn’t care and were going to slip him under the radar until I called and raised hell with them. (They do NOT like me–DUH!)

He did get out about 6 months later though and apparently had hooked up with some Christian groups in prison who helped this poor misguided soul to get a place to live etc.

Though he had a no-contact order (his parole officer did NOT know this) and he called my egg donor and actually TRIED TO BORROW MONEY FROM HER. Nothing was done about this. I spoke to the POs supervisor and she was nicer to me, but I am not sure she took me too seriously either.

I also sent them written documentation and a letter outlining in great graphic detail his past crimes.

IN ADDITION TO THIS—in texas where he committed his crimes, he was rated as a HIGH RISK FOR VIOLENCE AND REOFFENSE SEX OFFENDER LEVEL 4. In Arkansas he is rated a 2 that is TWO–which means he will NOT SHOW UP ON A COMPUTER SCAN OF SEX OFFENDERS IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD–the reason??????? He did not do these crimes in Arkansas! DUH?????

I also pointed out that he was already stalking a 12 year old boy int he neighborhood where he was renting a house from me.

The reoffense rate of sexual offenders who “do” children is almost 100%—so what’ya think? He’s not going to reoffend? I bet he already has! Just hasn’t gotten caught yet!

As for “passing” drug tests while using, as long as they use the piss tests, they can be beaten. I used to do pre-employment drug tests for a factory and I could always tell who was using and who wasn’t by the fact that they were so hyper-hydrated that their urine specific gravity was almost identical with distilled water. If the specific gravity was not higher I would invalidate the test until they came back in.

Body hair tests are much more reliable because they can tell the drug use as long as the hair is stuck to the body!

Matt, CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM is an oxymoron!!!!

Can you guys tell my dander is up? LOL


(despite their known diagnosis) that is why no contact is our only salvation…despite knowing what he is,he is so good at what he does I don’t trust myself around him, it’s like they cast spell’s – vampires – I dont know much about his criminal past but he had no drivers license ten years prior to meeting me – I helped him get legal, helped him get a vehicle and set him free to torment the good people of the world – my bad….


no, not surprising.
i have watched my ex talk himself out of more traffic violation stops — things that may have landed others a trip to jail. also got busted for smoking weed on the street, but eventually had the cop laughing and walking away. incredible.
he has assaulted people and never got in trouble for it. no one would ever snitch on him because he’s ‘the man.’
he actually told me once that on the street they called him ”truth.” how freakin’ funny is that? or not.




Wow, what a surprise. (being sarcastic). I would guarantee my S talked his way out of the army fraud charges and probably played on their sympathy being an Iraqi vet with a young child.

They have these rehab-therapy programs for sex offenders that are supposed to have some limited success. Has anyone ever heard of a program like that being successful? I know because I once dated someone that I found out many years later liked to fondle kids. I found out he served a few years of prison time and then went into that program for several years. According to his mother, he is supposed to be rehabilitated. Is this even possible?


This is one subject that has driven me to “tears and fears”. How these “parasitic” people will feed off agencies social programs as well as the legal system. They have years of personal experience in this area. I always tell myself if one wants to learn how to con and abuse the system(s) well just asked a sociopath. But then you take a chance for remember they are “power” driven and pathological liars as well.

Ox Drover

We had a psychpathic rapist here in Ark back when Clinton was president. He raped a young woman who was a distant cousin to Clinton (I am not even sure she knew clinton) but anyway, the rape was so brutal (though she lived) that some of the local good old boys caught this guy BEFORE the cops did and CASTRATED him.

He was finally caught, convicted and put in prison for life without parole. But his attorneys (sorry, Matt) convinced the courts and the GOVERNOR after several years that he was NOW HARMLESS because he was castrated and that it was ‘CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT’ and he should be released.

Well, the governor commuted his sentence, and guess what!!! WITHIN A MONTH AFTER RELEASE, HE HAD RAPED AGAIN AND KILLED THE WOMAN, and been rearrested.

I’m not “for” the vigilante castration that happened, because this is supposedly, and SHOULD BE, a country of LAWS and the judicial system and police system SHOULD protect us from CRIMINALS, but as long as psychopaths can use their cunning to convice people to pity them, or to trust them, they will always slide under the radar.

That’s why I carry a gun. A cop is wayyyyy too heavy, and when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. I won’t go after my P that is out on parole now, but I WILL DEFEND MYSELF IF HE COMES AFTER ME AGAIN. I will also do my best to convince th eparole board to keep my p-son in prison for the rest of his natural life, bercause if he gets out, he WILL be a worse danger to my other two sons, even if I am dead and gone.



A newbie…..hi. Responding here as it appears to be the newest post, and where the ‘action is’. The exP/N (who knows, they have so much in common), was not a violent offender or even in trouble with the law, so far as I could tell. But he is always on the edge of legality (drugs in home, seducing for money, and basically doing things that are ‘just under the radar’). But he, like all the others, does have the uncanny ability to get out of just about anything, and have a staunch group of current supporters who are more than willing to ‘testify’ to his integrity and his having ‘changed their life’.

Seems to me that parole board folks and other law or social helpers alike, all seem to be just as vulnerable to the twisted communications, ‘acts’ of contrition, upbeat attitudes, and flattery as the rest of us. Just rubbing up against that kind of ‘confidence and magic’ makes people’s brains turn to mush. All that promise of perfection/confidence and ability is intoxicating to so many of us.

We, the law, will continue to release these creatures, and be shocked by their reoffense so long as we keep wanting to ‘believe’ in the fairy tale versions of our own lives, and reject the real human experience.

Gosh….I hope I am not being too….too. Glad to have found this group. I look forward to learning and participating.



Welcome. This site has been a lifesaver for me. There are people on this site from every walk of life, every profession, every sexual persuasion, every… well, you get the idea. Bottom line is, people here are willing to help however they can.

Regarding sociopaths — So true they have so much in common. A common statement on this site is “Are you SURE we weren’t dating/married/involved with the SAME guy?” There may be some variations, but their MOs and timetables are practically cookie cutter. And of course, there is their simply amazing ability to get out of anything.

Fleeced Ewe

I am amazed that my attorney had no clue what a sociopath is, not to mention a psychopath. He actually comes to me with questions about them.

So, if attorneys have no clue, judges don’t either. This sad list includes, child advocates, Guardian Ad Litem, most counselors and psychologists; (People who have power over the lives and future of the innocent and the evil).

I found that, psychologists, and LPC’s, got to where they are by studying a book, and passing a test. HOWEVER, most have NO CLUE how these behaviors act out in the “real world”.

A law should be passed that every single person in, or entering all/any human resource, or human service career- MUST become an expert on these disorders. And not just that, but they should all be tested and demoted if they show to be one, themselves.

Ox Drover

Dear Ewe,

Yep, they should be forced to take the course, BUT unfortunately too many attorneys, cops, law makers, governors and other people like judges ARE PSychopaths! No joke, that is the sickest part of it all. Find a power position and the more powerful the position, the more the disordered flock to that POWER SPOT. It is almost a JOKE if it weren’t so sad.


With three strikes laws the understanding (and especially the marketing), is wrong. These laws have sometimes come under attack as cruel and unusual punishment. If they were nicknamed “Psychopath Laws”, or similar, the real reason for them might become more apparent to the public at large.


Hi slimone,

So glad you could join us. Here one can let their hair down or like me drink their coffee and read and learn to one’s heart content. I for one believe it the best place to be and the support here is just unbelievable. So again welcome!


A belated welcome. While most of the others here are better at support and advice, I’m better at tossing out random ideas that somebody smarter than I might run with. I also dabble in revenge against P’s (I’m a self-trained professional. Do not try this at home).

After I did battle with my last SS, the first thing she did after quitting that job and going on to new, um, ’adventures’, was to find a “staunch group of current supporters”. This included a retired psychologist and an ethical attorney.

I think she panders to emotional needs (weaknesses, as she’d call them) including greed, paranoia, sense of importance, tribalism, community values… anything that makes a person want to do the subtle evil which she manipulates them into doing. In short, I think she: satisfies their need, satisfies their need, then implies they do a thing (which winds up being risky for them but beneficial for her) to satisfy their need.

I’ve learned these ’cult leader sociopaths’ usually leave behind a staunch group of detractors as well. I’d love to be able to figure out how to network them into a resource that authority would pay attention to.

There has to be a way to separate the supporters from the detractors and victims, and give the latter more credibility.


In Women Who Love Psychopaths it says that we are intelligent and successful, extroverted, and very invested in our relationships which is how they hook us. We are not sick or abnormal, a “Princess” who thought only of herself would be of no interest.

I’ve been debating my own situation, mine is in Court ordered counseling and if I should anonymously ask the counselor to run him on the PCR because he is probably conning her. On the other hand, I want to avoid all contact.


Usedabused: There is strong evidence that court-ordered counseling for psychopathic individuals does more harm than good. They learn better skills of manipulation, and they learn how to con the system.

Abusers who AREN’T psychopathic can learn anger management skills, etc. But with the psychopathic, this can even increase the danger for those around them.


I thought the book Women Who Love Psychopaths was a very good book, so I’m not knocking it. However, it is my understanding that the women completed a survey about their own traits, and I do have to wonder how accurate it is simply because I don’t think we always see ourselves as others may see us. Kind of like when a psychopath self reports, how accurate would that be? But even if most victims are extroverted with no emotional or mental health issues, I know I am definitely NOT an extravert. And I doubt that all victims are entirely free of emotional or mental issues. But regardless, of course, it is not a victims fault a psychopath targeted them. I’m just saying I seriously doubt all or even most victims are as stellar as that book makes us sound.

How greatful I am for this site!! 42 years ago I met the Psychopath in my life. We were married 5 years later.The marriage lasted 20 years and ended in 1993. In the interim we both married and divorced. I went to a place in Albany, Ohio called Wellspring – a lovely retreat for deprogramming from cults and abusive (one on one’s) relationships. We were also involved in a religious cult for 16 years of our marriage, so my purpose in going was to be free of the cultic mindset of the Worldwide Church of God. At the time of my going to Wellspring I did not as yet know I had been married to a psychopath. It was while I was there that I was told that my former husband was a psychopath – that the cult had contained his madness and that when he left, the real psychopathic behavior in him manifested itself. I could not at that time handle all of that information at once, and now realize that I needed deprogramming from my former husband. In November of 2008 our daughter invited both of us to her home for Thanksgiving. Long story short, we again began a relationship. It took me a very short time to internalize the reality of who he was. He called yesterday and I told him our relationship was not working for me. He feigned shock and asked if he had said or done anything wrong. I restated that the relationship was not working for me.
It’s interesting that during the 17 years we were apart, I read every book I could get my hands on, including Ann Rule’s books, The Sociopath Next Door, The Betrayal Bond, Hervey Cleckley’s books, Hare’s books, and a book recommended to me at Wellspring called Captive Hearts, Captive Minds – chilling reality!!
When the time came for me to face reality, it was just like something dropped from my head to my heart. I have experienced intense grief washing over me, and feel as if my soul has been raped. We have two children together, and I am greatful they are older, but how does one tell them?
I will purchase the book on women who are attracted to psychopaths. I am looking for support groups and happened onto this site – I went to graduate school and while there took a class on Personality Disorders – still denial!!
Thanks so much for a place to spill grief and hopefully recover. I am attending a 12 step group that I hope can help me heal.


housie: Welcome to LF! I am in a healing stage myself right now and have found a lot of support and wisdom here. Wonderful that it only took you a “short time to internalize the reality of who he was”, I am sorry for the grief you are going through, hope you feel a little bit better everyday!


Well, since I mentioned above about how I wondered how accurate self reporting of traits would actually be, I went and found this:

“The supposed problems with self-reports are legendary in psychology (see, for example, Allen & Potkay, 1983; Judd & Park, 1993). People’s reports of the traits they possess may not match the traits they actually possess, because their claims are often influenced by social desirability and self-presentational goals. Upon making direct observations of their behaviors, psychologists may see people as having a different set of traits than the ones that they see themselves as possessing. More generally, and more important from a practical point of view, their behaviors may reflect different traits than they claim to possess.”

Ox Drover

Dear Housie,

Welcome to LF and glad you found your way here. It is a healing place for those who have indeed been involved with a psychopath(s).

GOOD FOR YOU for breaking it off again! Yes, I can relate to the denial. I am 62 and have been involved with “them” all my life it seems, from parents to my child and others. Overcoming that denial phase (which can last a long time!) is the biggest hurdle for me, and now that I am finally “getting it” I am healing. LF has helped a great deal!

Sounds like you have a pretty good back ground in the knowledge of the Ps, which is a good start because that knowledge can help us get back our power! Again, welcome to our “club” but sorry that you qualify for “membership” but if you do, this is the BEST group I’ve come across!

Jim in Indiana USA

housie…Welcome, and what Oxy said…

housie…”In November of 2008 our daughter invited both of us to her home for Thanksgiving.”

That one rang my bell. I have a 26 year old…in denial during and since the divorce. Doesn’t know anything…doesn’t want to. She made a comment a while ago about a friend whose divorced parents, with their new families, who get together for friendly barbeques like old friends (I assume no p’s are in the mix).

I told her…”Ain’t gonna happen!” and offered no explanation. I know her mother likes to drag her into “her” drama and chaos. I “back-slid”, before…God help me if I do it again.

I see my daughter when she wants to see me. We had lunch Easter Sunday. I enjoyed it, and I hope she did, too.

Me…through Lovefraud and a good therapist…I’ve finally discovered “boundaries”. I make mistakes, and learn new things every day, but I am on my way out of the FOG and will continue to learn…about me. TOWANDO!


Housie —

I’ve been saying for some time that being married to my husband was like being in a cult and maybe I need deprogramming. Actually to be more specific, trying to get away from him was/ is like getting free mentally from a cult. I’ve not been in a cult per say but was strongly connected to a church that had cult-like tendencies in the heavy handed way they used up and treated people, and in the expectations of total conformity to their views. When they began teaching doctrine contrary to Scripture it was very difficult and painful to leave (like a divorce) and had a profound impact on my church relations for years. Anyway, any thoughts on deprogramming in regards to leaving these sociopathic creatures?

One other thing that relates to the original article. I had a wonderful therapist who really helped me through the first 6 months apart from my husband. Then she gave me the name of a psychologist in her office for my husband to see, who, she said, was great at seeing through people like him.

Well, sometime later my therapist changed from being very supportive and suggesting to me that my husband may be sociopathic, to this is your “truth” and that is his “truth”. The strain in the sessions became almost palatable. I know professional standards dictate that my therapist and his psychologist shouldn’t speak about us but I feel sure they did, and the result was that my husband again controls the message! And I am forced to go to a new therapist.

I am ashamed to admit it, but without God’s help I am presently very much afraid of my husband and what he’ll do. The real divorce process is beginning and I’ve already had glimpses of his great powers of persuasion and how he influences people. Well, I already knew these things about him, but haven’t seen them directed soley towards defaming me.

Elizabeth Conley

“Well, sometime later my therapist changed from being very supportive and suggesting to me that my husband may be sociopathic, to this is your “truth” and that is his “truth”. The strain in the sessions became almost palatable. I know professional standards dictate that my therapist and his psychologist shouldn’t speak about us but I feel sure they did, and the result was that my husband again controls the message! And I am forced to go to a new therapist. ”

I feel for you. The “truth is relative” mantra is a popular fantasy that enables Cluster Bs. Dupes feel sophisticated and wise when they adopt this mantra. It makes them feel “above the fray”. The trouble is, truth is not relative.

You need a therapist who understand that embracing reality is liberating. If you can figure out what is true, and make decisions based on reality, not spin, your life improves. You need someone who can help you with the process of identifying what is real and coming to terms with it.

I’m sorry you’re divorcing such a capable spin Meister. I suggest you exercise extreme caution in your friendships, and only confide in the most stable and discrete.

What kind of church are you attending now? This is one of your most important relationships. Make sure you are associating with Christians who aren’t swayed by slander originating in his “high control” congregation. These cult-churches often have influence that extends much farther into the community than you’d expect. The last thing you want to deal with is bizarre behavior from your fellow congregants while you’re trying to deal with a nasty divorce.

Those of us who go to church for respite are often surprised to find that people whose lives are essentially boring go to church for a bit of excitement. This gap in expectations is a nuisance when we’re not in crisis, but it can be totally crazy-making when we’re worn down. Make sure your church is mature enough to offer respite when the slander gets vicious, as it almost always does.

Ox Drover

Dear Elizabeth,

Your advice is so wise, and you continue to amaze me in how you see these things….that is what makes LF so wonderful, is the diversity of thoughts and experiences that brings out wonderful advice on so many aspects of the healing process.

I am SO GLAD YOU are here, I wouldn’t have even thought to caution her on such, but you are RIGHT IN SPADES, thank you for this insightful post! (((hugs)))) and Prayers

Ox Drover

Jim, I would also like to thank you for being here at LF, your advice (above) is also right on. We MUST not get drawn into their “drama” and that old saw “there are two sides to every story” may be true, but it does NOT MEAN THAT THERE ARE TWO CORRECT SIDES…with the Ps, one side is ALWAYS a LIE. (((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you as well!

Elizabeth Conley

Ox Drover,

You flatterer you!

Seriously, church is the last place people expect to be attacked. Unfortunately, many congregations shoot their wounded. They make a lot of self-righteous noise while doing it too! It’s hard to figure out what on earth’s going on until you’ve witnessed the pattern a few times.

I pray you never do. It’s like a shark feeding frenzy, minus the redemptive quality of nature.

Jim in Indiana USA

Is it “mutual admiration day”? My Aussie friend calls it “monkeygrooming”! Hey, everybody here is good. All the different stories that seem to have many of the same chapters. Or, as Matt said: “same church, different pew”. If we’re all crazy here…I’m in. Better than being crazy in the P-FOG. LOL.

Compared to some here, though a long ordeal, mine seemed to have less residual damage, and the stress effects on health dissipated fairly quickly…now it’s just normal, or regular neurotic life, in a world with better visibility…less FOG.

Cleared for take-off (I got the sink drain rebuilt…accomplished one thing today! TOWANDO!


Elizabeth —

You are so right. From the time the therapist started in on the truth is relative stuff I felt totally thwarted and frustrated. It defeated the whole purpose of going to therapy. The hardest thing in such a relationship (as with my h) is that they control everything, or try to, or think they do, including REALITY and all or any interpersonal relations between us. I’ve spent over 30 years dealing with this and when I go for therapy I want someone else to see what he’s doing. Regardless, there is such a thing as TRUTH. If you say his truth/ your truth you are denying this. And the stuff he’s done is so aggregious it cannot even fit into the category of “Let’s work on your mutual marriage problems” or “Everyone has a different perspective”. But, in my therapist’s defense I should add that if she was hearing from his psychologist (I’m sure she was) she was hearing absolute outright lies about me — I had no idea until recently how horrific these were. I think the tension was so great because she continued to believe me but also greatly respected her colleague’s opinion. And from the sounds of it my h has done a real job on him.

And this brings me to your other excellent points regarding church. My h and I do not go to the same church for various reasons, one being that he was in leadership at his, and another that it has similar issues as the church we left, and I couldn’t do that again . The church experience I spoke about happened 20 years ago when my husband was on staff as one of the pastors. I was very supportive and invoved with him in that work. But in recent years due to his abuse of me, total neglect of our relationship, and his continual overextion on anything and everything but his home and family I could no longer support him in his ministry aspirations until things were in better order (little did I know that he was also immoral). He had been in full time ministry at one time but recent years it was lay leadership including a lot of teaching from the pulpit, being an elder in everything but formally set in (the only reason that didn’t happen was because of my resistance to it), and being a chief advisor to the head pastor, which he still is.

Okay, I said all that to say, you are so so right about this. I have already experienced how my h has spinned it with his church and pastor and it’s far worse than I ever dreamed. He has them believing he had a simple pornography problem for which he’s repented and that I won’t forgive and reconcile, and has presented me as a monster. I have felt a lot of pressure from this quarter to reconcile, in spite of the fact that the h continues to lie and cheat and be immoral with impunity — of course they don’t know that part and believe whatever he tells them. Thankfully, I have the support of a pastor and his wife who have known both of us for upwards 30 years and they see through all of this. And our very best friends, who knew my h even before we married, are supporting me — they in fact left his church in part over the spin. So the situation is a mixed bag. Those that know only him, or who haven’t been around me in years and attend his church are under his influence.

It’s all quite overwhelming and I can’t wait until this is over. I don’t know why his defamation upsets me so much. I guess I feel so powerless. When he recently brought a no contact order claiming domestic abuse against me when in fact he was the violent one I realized he’ll stop at nothing. How to defend myself? God is my defense.

Jim in Indiana USA

No more….

“He has them believing he had a simple pornography problem”

Well, if they thought that was simple, I think they need a religious education in that church.

TRUTH….yup…It’ll set you free, but first it WILL piss you off…and that’s good!

I’ve fired a psychologist/psychiatrist…one who had bias from her own recent divorce…lot of chaff to winnow out in that field…my therapist (LCSW) predicted it (once again) before I saw it. My teen daughter (the patient) caught on before I did.

Find someone who believes you…it makes all the difference in the world. I got lucky.

You’ll get there…the LIES they spin will upset you….but you’ll get past ’em.

We’ll believe you, too. Prayers and thoughts here are with you.


Jim —

You are right about the pornography problem not being “simple”. So good to hear a guy say it! I get so tired of , “Well, we understand” and dismissing it. It is THE thing or big part of what has led to the present moral disorder of h’s life, caused the destruction of a 33 year marriage and has done unbelievable harm to a lot of people, and may affect even more if he gets arrested. Of course, there’s the whole personality disorder thing with him as well, but I wonder how much choosing immorality early on helps to cement an underlying predisposition to such problems? Sure seems like a lot of these people have major moral issues.

Yeah, they minimized the pornography. And recently I spoke with his pastor and he minimized h’s involvement with another woman, “They only kissed passionately all night and only met about 10 times”. Not his exact words but in the context of h and his pastor pushing me for reconciliation the new girlfriend thing, yeah it’s just a little impediment.

Thanks Jim, and everyone here!


Thought I better add something to the above post. I sure don’t mean to imply that God doesn’t forgive us for moral failings if we ask Him with the intention of ammending our ways. It’s just that these disordered individuals seem to keep repeating these things without any concern for anyone or anything. They high handedly keep practicing these things. Different than, “Go and sin no more” and “Such WERE some of you”.

Ox Drover

Jesus said “as a man THINKETH in his heart….” and he also said if a man “looketh up on a woman to LUST after he has committed adultery with her in his heart.”

The thought is the father of the act. It isn’t about just “looking at dirty pictures”—it is what is on your h’s MIND, what he is THINKING about, even if he never DOES anything, he is WANTING to. For that pastor to “minimize” what your husband did and to act like it is “okay” because there (supposedly) was no actual intercourse is HORRIBLE. I would be more inclined to “reconcile” with a man who admitted he had intercourse but was SORRY than with one who wouldn’t even admit what he did and would expect me to believe what is obviously a LIE. ROTFLMAO What kind of fool does this man think you are (the pastor?) Bett’ya he wouldn’t reconcile with his wife if she passionately kissed all night and ONLY 10 times with another man. sheesh! Where is the PUKE emotiocon when you need it!

I so empathize with what you are going through. My P husband had everyone convinced that he was right on everything. I was told that therapists that work with P’s have to schedule a session with a fellow therapist following a session with these P’s. The purpose is to get centered again. If this happens after only one session to the therapist, can you imagine how in need of deprogramming one is after living with one of these creatures for 42 years?
The only place I have found for deprogramming from a P is a place called Wellspring in Albany, Ohio. It is run by world renowned therapists who assist in the deprogramming of people that have been in all kinds of cults and abusive relationships. It is set in the woods with a locked fence so that no one can kidnap patients while they are there. I was very impressed with the therapy and overall care I received while there in 1996. I believe they have scholarships available for those in need. As for the whole church thing, and how cunning and crafty your h has been in the lies and deceit, just know that you are on the right track to be reaching out for help on this blog with people who can relate and care about you. My ex even conned a professional therapist who deals in forensic pathology and they put on a conference together on cults and their destruction. Talk about soul chilling!!! Just 3 days ago, I had an experience where suddenly after all of these years of trying to get over him I got it in my heart. Since then, I have had what appears to be a buttload of flashbacks of memories of his behavior much like a kaleidascope. The relief I feel is incredible. I have been set free after all of these years of always giving him the benifit of the doubt, and trying to get good enough for him and his perception that I was the problem.


Housie I have mentioned Wellspring on here in the past and have linked the free E-book about mind control and it is nice to see another person who found it helpful for not just cult issues but also abusive relationship issues.


Oxy —

I forgot to add that they also pretty much give him a pass on the STD he gave me. He has them convinced it came out of thin air and I must be nutty, I guess. I’ve never been with anyone but him the entire marriage, while he has admittedly “done everything but” with strippers and lap dances over the course of many years and all over the country. Duh, who most likely gave it to whom! Besides he is an excellent and proven liar so we can’t take his word as to what exactly he has done anyway.

The pornography and recent girlfriend are only the tip of the iceberg. He has committed mental and physical adultery in many more ways than one and for a long time. The Matthew exception for divorce is the Greek word porneia and it encompasses all kinds of immorality including lap dances (I found out what goes on with these lap dances and it is “everything but”). And he advertised himself on the internet and asked specifically for married women (or any woman who would go with a married man). Talk about blatant disobedience to, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife”. I don’t have proof but believe in my heart he has had “flings” (his word) throughout the marriage. I’m to believe he did nothing with the new found girlfriend, didn’t give me the STD, didn’t, didn’t, didn’t… I could go with many other things. (to say nothing of the business and money lies and all the continuing deceptions)

I’m with you, if he had honestly admitted intercourse there would be hope. Though, in my case even if he admitted what he did with this lady there’s a whole lot more hidden that would have to be uncovered, and it’s too much now. If he had fallen into an affair period, and come clean there’d be something to work with. Or if he admitted to a pornography addiction alone and come clean, there’d be something to work with. But the list and the lies never seem to end. Actually, I finally was willing to work with him if he came clean about absolutely everything, but the opposite happened — dug himself deeper with more lies. And he crowned it off with one of the more horrible examples of his verbal abuse. And to that I would not go back.

I can hardly believe that I’ve gone through a year of torment wrestling with whether I am supposed to reconcile (feeling guilty about not wanting to), when to any outside observer with common sense, the answer was obvious.

Guess it sounds like I sure have a chip on my shoulder now. So be it, I need it. Thanks again Oxy for writing. I so appreciate it. Only hope I won’t wear you all out.

Housie —

Thank you so much for responding and answering my question about the deprogramming.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, always going the second mile to make sure I’m being fair to him — my experience exactly! Much of your story sounds familiar to me.

I think I understand just a little bit what you mean about the flashbacks of his behavoir. Often this past year when I would wake up in the morning I would get a brief, but amazingly unhindered view of some thing he had actually done or lied about, and for that moment it all was very clear to me. Then I would think, “I’m doing the right thing”. I think this helped me to have the strength to hold my ground, even with my everchanging emotions. Your experience sounds like wonderful deliverance. I’m so glad for you.


From reading your posts, there is not a doubt in my mind that your ex has a sex addiction and is a compulsive liar, to say the least. From what I’ve read the statistics of church leadership officials that have sex and substance addictions is staggering, and it is common for the church to minimize it or cover it up, rather than confront it. If you haven’t read “The Betrayal Bond”, I recommend reading this. There is a story that is a lot like yours in there. I admire your strength in the face of so many people doubting you.

By the way, you are entitled to have a “chip on your shoulder” after what you have been through. You are entitled to be very angry about it. You have been exploited and traumatized for years. It’s very important to have support where people don’t think you’re crazy or overreacting. Don’t ever apologize for how much you are writing here. This is a great place to come and say as much as you want.

Ox Drover

Dear Nomore,

BEing angry and even bitter is a natural and normal response to injury—even Jesus said “be ye angry and sin not.” So, even in the eyes of Jesus (who himself was angry at injustice) anger itself it not a “sin” or even bad, it is a natural response and we can expect to be angry when we are deliberately wounded.

I too struggled with spiritual aspects…ones that had been twisted by my egg donor that “forgiveness” meant “let’s pretend it never happened”—but I have come to see forgiveness in another light, as getting that bitterness out of my heart, but NOT TRUSTING them blindly again. I have eventually come to the point (afte rmuch soul searching, prayer and tears) to where I am no longer bitter and wrathful toward them, but trust them? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Because they have NOT REPENTED, have not acknowledged their bad behavior, their lies, etc. I will NOT trust them, and if the time comes (not likely!) that they do acknowledge their “sins” the trust will have to be EARNED, not given blindly.

The story of Joseph TESTING his brothers before even revealing himself to them as their brothers, to see whether they had changed or not, is a good example to me of “forgiveness” vs “trust”—-you can have forgiveness without trust, but not trust without PROOF.

Your path will be strewn with pits and boulders, but you are taking the “high road” and not allowing these “false prophets” to lure you into their lies. Satan is the “father of lies” and these people ARE THE LIE….I firmly belive that these people have “sold their souls to the devil” for what they see as a “mess of pottage” (to mix metaphors here!) LOL

I do also recommend the book THE BETRAYAL BOND for you as well as LEGAL ABUSE SYNDROME. The last one mixes law and recovery, but since you are going through a divorce I think would be very helpful to you. I have read both books and highly recommend them for people in our situations. There is good information on defending yourself from these people, and also for RECOVERY tactics. Recovery from the acute stages of the grief is only the START of the healing process, but it is a good start, so that we can then go on and find out WHY, what it is about US, that made us vulnerable to them and their abuse. “tribulation worketh patience” and this is definitely a “tribulation” but in the end, I thinkk if we take the opportunity we can come out better, stronger, and more spiritual people having survived and prospered in spite of, maybe even because of, our encounters with the psychopaths, the earthly equivalent of Satan. Hugs and prayers.


Stargazer and Oxy —

Thank-you both so much for your encouraging words! Your words stirred up alot of things I’d like to get into but am too tired right now. Had bad day today (found out he threw away a second computer due to the police investigation — don’t know why that upset me so much but I was shaken up and mad) and needed the encouragement. I’ve now had three recomendations on the Betrayal Bond so I’d better read it! As to the whole anger/ forgiveness thing — wow, this is appropo. For most of this past year I have not been angry at all — sick isn’t it? Occasionally I could get angry but it usually wouldn’t last more than a few hours. I have wanted to be angry (without being bitter/ revengeful) and maybe I’m there now. Angry, I mean. Hopefully not bitter but today it’s been close. Anyway, you know what I mean. Well, guess I rambled a little more than I planned.

Housie and BloggerT —

I looked up the Wellspring site and am thinking seriously of checking more into it. I appreciate the word on it from both of you. Was good to see it seconded, BloggerT.

Thanks again all!

Ox Drover

Dear nomore,

There is nothing “wrong” with being ANGRY, it is a normal emotion and spurs you on to action! I figure if “J. C.” can get angry it is okay for me to be!!! LOL

In fact, I got quite angry yesterday—a crew of men working on my land (for a natural gas drilling company) CUT THE FENCE by a locked gate to get entrance instead of coming through another gate that was OPEN—believe me, their crew leader got an ear full, and so did their BOSS who is now being very very contrite! (I’ve had multiple problems with them in the past coming on the property without notification etc.)

Since the problem is now fixed—-my anger spurred me to TAKE ACTION, but I did not let it BLIND ME to what reasonable action would be.

Anger has some really GOOD properties, and it also has some properties that are not so good. Sometimes it can blind us to reality, that’s why some people “over react” with anger.

Many churches teach that anger itself is “bad” which I think is a perversion of the true meaning of the scrpitures of Jesus’ teaching. Just like my egg donor teaching me that forgiveness was defined as “let’s pretend that none of this happened.” NOT SO, and after searching the scriptures FOR MYSELF and also after conferring with others who are ministers, I now define “forgiveness” as getting the BITTERNESS out of my heart toward those persons who have offended me, but it does NOT mean trusting them again. Since they have not shown any signs of repentence and continue to engage in their bad behavior, the chances of trusting them are ZERO.

NC keeps me away from them so that there are no NEW injuries to make me angry or upset me, so now I can live in PEACE and heal from the old injuries, and let the anger go for past injuries. BTW “anger” and “bitterness” are not to me the same thing. To me, bitterness is a long held seething anger and negative attitude over past offenses that can last decades and becomes the focus of the holder’s life. Anger is the righteous indignation for an inury or unfairness. Bitterness is what anger can become if it is held on to forever, but not the same thing. I guess I would discribe “bitterness” as the psychopathic version of anger. LOL Words fail me sometimes when talking about spiritual or emotional concepts or feelings. It’s like trying to “describe” the colors of the rainbow to someone else!

Today was a better day. I shared with my 35 year old son about his dad being a sociopath. I think he was actually relieved – like maybe he wasn’t crazy after all. My sister has been having a p in her life for almost as many years as I (42), and when I read to her from the book I was given at Wellspring (Captive Hearts, Captive Minds), she took her p’s phone # off of her cell and told me she is not going to answer the phone if he calls. See, our recovery spreads, just like the pathology. Thanks, all, for this site being a safe place (just an afterthought – how do we know there aren’t any p’s or s’s on this site?)

Ox Drover

Dear Housie,

There are the occasional Ps who actually come here and post but believe me they become apparent and usually we ignore them and they go away. There is actually a P-site(s) on the net where they go to gloat like we come here to heal.

I’m glad your son seemed relieved, because, first of all,think of this, I bet he has not escaped unscathed from your X’s clutches either. Secondly, if he (your son) is not a P as well, then he is concerned for YOUR welfare. Due to the genetic components sometimes women (and men) not only have a spouse who is a P but children who “are just like” the psychopath so it is a double whammy for the victims. I have a friend who was married to a viscious P for almost 50 years. They have 4 adult children together and of the 4, only one is not “on the side of” “daddy-dearest”—I’m not sure if the children are not Ps themselves, but in any case,, they are sure DUPES of the Ps. For Ps who hide their evil abuse from others, i.e. who abuse in secret while keeping up this pretense of being a “Christian” or a “pillar of the community” sometimes the people that they have duped will also turn against the victim and “not believe” the victim. That is also very painful if those dupes are your kids. I am relieved and happy for you that your son apparently accepted your “diagnosis”—-and happy for your sister too!

Yes, the healing CAN spread and just as we have been blessed by healing, we can help others as well by extending voices of support and education to them. Glad you are here, Housie!

Jim in Indiana USA


“Thanks, all, for this site being a safe place (just an afterthought – how do we know there aren’t any p’s or s’s on this site?)”

Well, there are no guarantees in life. How do we know there aren’t some next door, at work, etc?

I guess if any show up, we have a lot of support in dealing with them. And Donna has the ability to monitor it if they get out of hand.

This site has earned my trust. And, thanks to this site…I’ve learned responsibility for my safety is in my hands.

I’m glad you had a good day, housie!

PS…I previewed an found Oxy already answered.

Hello all you wonderful folks!

Yes, I still read LF quite often because the articles and proceeding comments are so enlightening, so powerful, so insightful that I would be a flat out fool to miss out on such an education to be gained here.

Thank you, Donna, for posting this particular article. You’re determination, ferocity focused on exposing these sick predators is beyond commendable. It humbles me yet touches and endears you to me even more.

I would like to say that yeah, berating yourself for being “sucker punched” by smooth as silk and molasses psychpaths of the world is basically an unproductive activity and restricts the healing process.

I would say pointless, but I guess it is part of this restorative process and we all probably felt like complete fools for falling for the bullshit.

I have and did but the knowledge, the valuable education I have gained from my years of PDI research cannot be ignored or dismissed. It’s in my head constantly reminding me to be ALERT, to be AWARE, to pay extra special attention to my beloved, GOD given intuition when mingling with strangers.

Therefore, instead of feeling foolish for initially thinking a new person in my life is OK and then them revealing that he/she is a predator……I get pissed!

Complete alternate direction than before I knew what I know now. My anger, my righteous fury is galvanizing for me. The reality slams right in my face and I must confront it or beware of the consequences: safety, welfare, sanity.

My anger towards a suspected predator protects me from his/her machinations. I leave and distance myself immediately although I’m blazing with fury.

It is not logical for a rational, emotionally complex, conscience driven person to waste one more second of their precious life seeking truth from a psychopath. Won’t happen as we ALL can attest to such a thing from our experiences.

Righteous, justified anger is good, folks. And believe me when I say, it in NO WAY disturbs my pure physical and spiritual joy at simply being alive.

YES! I am alive, living and breathing and enjoying life with a gusto and no vile, evil, sick, twisted predator will ever take that away from me. No sirree

I win they lose. End of story.


Hi JaneSmith. I’m glad you are in agreement that we are NOT to blame for another’s sin that blinds them in life.

I am grateful that I never got this blinded. I think the biggest sins I ever did in my life was to argue with loved ones and tell a white lie (compliment someone when I really didn’t think their outfit was that great) and the big one, having sex without being married yet. Ok, there’s a few more, like drinking when I was in my teens and 20s, smoking cigarettes. That’s about it. I’m grateful that the sin of (life’s) lust didn’t grab me into that downward spiral of having this sin blind me totally as it did our EXs.

Glad to chat with you. It’s been a long time.

Peace everyone.

Ox Drover

Dear Janie, darling! I have missed you so [email protected] Your post above is wonderful [email protected]@@!!!!!! ((((((hugs))))))) and always my prayers!

Technical issues. I was concerned that I had written something that was innappropriate for LF…haha.

I’m going to re-post what I wrote for Oxy as it was a genuine, sincere expression of my appreciation and respect for her:


You are a shining example of what it means to be a true human being.

You’re an amazing woman with an endless capacity for love, comfort, encouragement and support. I am in awe and humbled by your generous spirit.

God bless you, sweetheart.

And I’m not going to repost what I wrote to Wini because her response to me was a 100 times better than what I wrote.

Maybe she’ll repost her awesome comment again. wink, wink.

Ox Drover

Dear Janie,

Thank you sweetie, I miss your wonderful compliments when you are not here posting regularly!!!! (((((hugs))))) (head hung in mock humility!) LOL

I am so glad you are doing well and things continue to go well with you. How is Beverly? Is she well? I miss her too, so much! I know sometimes it is time to “move on” to other things, and I too am “moving on” with REAL LIFE again, with real joy, real hope, real peace, and real love with those people who are truly my friends.

My time here on LF has bee am ‘amazing time! I think fondly back to how your words resonated with me, held me up, helped me to cope when I felt I couldn’t cope any more. Helped me keep going when I was so tired I couldn’t put one emotional foot in front of the other! Thank you so much, dear dear Janie! ((((hugs)))) and always prayers!

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