If there is one thing that gets me argumentative it is statements like this one that appeared in a recent research paper: “non-incarcerated psychopaths have an arguably equal potential to illuminate our understanding of the emotional difficulties, such as lack of empathy and lack of conscience, which underlie psychopathy and which lead to offending behaviour.” (emphasis mine)
Now I agree that we can learn from non-incarcerated psychopaths, I wrote recently about a well designed study where sociologists conducted interviews of some. But I cannot believe that statements like the one above make it through editorial review for another reason. Researchers in psychology have spent the last 50 years and untold millions of dollars uncovering the cause of behavior. There is no mystery, we know what causes behavior!
Behavior is caused by rewards and stopped by punishment. Actually rewards cause behavior a lot better than punishment stops it in most people. That is because the brain reward system is functionally stronger than the brain punishment system for most, and especially for sociopaths/psychopaths. The rewards that cause behavior do so because they increase dopamine activity in the mesolimbic dopamine system.
Offending behavior exists and persists because it is rewarding and that reward affects the activity of the mesolimbic dopamine system. To put it bluntly, nothing but desiring/liking to offend leads to offending behavior. To say otherwise is to negate all the work that has been done in this area. The evidence is so strong that genes involved in dopamine metabolism and that system have been identified as candidate genes in the familial transmission of “offending behavior”.
I will repeat, a lack of empathy does not cause offending behavior, neither does a lack of conscience. These two may cause a person to show restraint if he is tempted to aggress against another, but it is the aggressive impulse that causes aggression. So a person with empathy and conscience can still offend if he has the inclination to do so. Furthermore, there is evidence that repeated offending erodes away empathy and conscience.
There is another source of evidence that calls into question the hypothesis that lack of empathy causes the sociopath’s behavior. That source of evidence is people with autism and autism spectrum disorders.
I recently found two very impressive discussions comparing moral agency in autism and psychopathy. The first is, Autism, Empathy and Moral Agency, a paper published in The Philosophical Quarterly (52:340, 2002) written by Dr. Jeannette Kennett, Deputy Director and Principal Research Fellow, Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, The Australian National University. Since I didn’t know to search Philosophical Quarterly for papers on psychopathy, I didn’t find that paper until I read “Moral Psychology, Volume 3, The Neuroscience of Morality: Emotion, Brain Disorders and Development” MIT Press, 2008. Dr. Kennett also has two chapters in that book. But Chapter 5, Varieties of Moral Agency: Lessons from Autism, is a discussion of Dr. Kennette’s paper by Dr. Victoria McGeer, of Princeton University’s Center for Human Values. There is a back and forth discussion of the issues raised, with several noted professors also participating.
Both sources begin their discussions by saying that moral agency has two parts two it, a thinking part and a feeling part. They trace these concepts back to philosophers Kant and Hume. Dr. Kennett concludes that Kant is right and that reason is the most important aspect of moral agency. Dr. McGeer points to emotions being important even for people with autism. I am going to summarize the arguments, then give you my own opinion.
Now like sociopathy, autism is a spectrum. A large percentage of people with autism are mentally retarded, so this discussion involves those autistic individuals who are not mentally retarded. I should point out that many sociopaths also have poor intellectual functioning. These sociopaths tend to live in prison.
Dr. Kenneth quotes the following description of autism,
The most general description of social impairment in autism is lack of empathy. Autistic people are noted for their indifference to other people’s distress, their inability to offer comfort, even to receive comfort themselves. What empathy requires is the ability to know what another person thinks or feels despite that is different from one’s own mental state at the time. In empathy one shares emotional reactions to another person’s different state of mind. Empathy presupposes amongst other things a recognition of different mental states. It also presupposes that one goes beyond the recognition of difference to adopt the other person’s frame of mind with all the consequences of emotional reactions. Even able autistic people seem to have great difficulty achieving empathy in this sense.
Autistic people also experience an “aloneness,” yet this aloneness does not bother them. They are indifferent to the presence of other people and do not require affection. One autistic adult is quoted as saying, “I really didn’t know there were other people until I was seven years old. I then suddenly realized that there were people. But not like you do, I still have to remind myself that there are people. I could never have a friend. I really don’t know what to do with other people really.”
High functioning autistic people recognize that they are very different from other people and report feeling “like aliens.”
Dr.Kenneth correctly concludes, “Both psychopaths and autistic people experience outsider status, deficiencies in social understanding and social responsiveness… Both have a tendency to treat other people as tools or instruments, (they have) a lack of strong emotional connectedness to others and impaired capacity for friendship.” She says clinicians and researchers link these impairments in both psychopathy and autism to impaired empathy. But autistic people are in fact worse off in this respect than psychopaths. Psychopaths at least can interact socially with ease and behave in a charming way.
She correctly questions, “If empathy is crucial to the development and exercise of moral agency, then why is the autistic person not worse off, morally speaking, than the psychopath?” She points out that in spite of the lack of empathy which is at the core of the disorder, “Many autistic people display moral concerns, moral feeling and a sense of duty or conscience.”
That autistic people are not antisocial is evidenced by the observation that few come to the attention of police. I did a Google news search using the terms autistic and arrest. Although there were many arrests of people for abusing those with autism, all of the arrests of autistics for aggression were for aggression that stemmed from self-defense. For example, a 10 year old boy with autism was arrested for assaulting staff at his treatment facility. The boy assaulted staff members because he was afraid and they tried to prevent his escape.
Drs. Kenneth and McGeer basically agree on the source of moral agency in those with autism, and what they say is fascinating with respect to sociopaths. The source of moral agency in autism is a preference for order and organization. Autistic people have reported that their sense of morality comes from a desire to see their world as orderly and organized. Dr. Kenneth states that this need for order gives rise to an extraordinary rationality in high functioning people with autism. She says that since morality is organized and logical that those with autism easily pick up moral principles.
I also did a search on morality in autism and can attest to several studies demonstrating normal levels of moral reasoning in autistic children who are not mentally retarded.
Drs. Kennett and McGeer also agree on the issue of the lack of moral agency shown by sociopaths/psychopaths. They both say that this group just plain doesn’t care about morality or regard moral principles as important. This is where psychopaths and autistics differ. Autistics identify with and value moral principles. Dr. Kennett states, “It is not the psychopath’s lack of empathy, which (on its own at any rate) explains his moral indifference. It is more specifically his lack of concern, or more likely lack of capacity to understand what he is doing, to consider the reasons available to him and to act in accordance with them.”
The point of disagreement of the two experts involves the relative role of emotion and reason in autistic people’s moral agency and valuation of morality. Dr. Kennett says that the autistic person is like Dr. Spock of Star Treck, and views life in purely logical terms. Since morality is logical and rational, autistics embrace it. Dr. McGeer disagrees, she states that the autistic need for order leads to an emotional connection to order and rationality. She feels that emotion does play a role in the moral lives of autistics, since she sees them as emotionally as well as rationally invested in maintaining order.
What about sociopaths/psychopaths and the need for order/organization? This disorder truly involves disorder. Psychopaths/sociopaths thrive on chaos and seem to have a dislike for order. Everywhere they go they are a source of extreme entropy as they take order and turn it into disorder. Both Drs. link the lack of appreciation for order to a lack of thoughtfulness in sociopaths/psychopaths. Sociopaths are both disordered and not fully rational or logical.
Dr. McGeer States:
This failure of reason may seem surprising. After all, our image of the psychopath is of a person who is rather good at serving his own interests without concern for the damage he does to others; hence of someone who is rather good at thinking and acting in instrumentally rational ways”¦As Dr. Carl Elliot observes, “While the psychopath seems pathologically egocentric, he is nothing like an enlightened egoist. His life is frequently distinguished by failed opportunities, wasted chances and behavior which is astonishingly self-destructive. This poor judgment seems to stem not so much from the psychopath’s inadequate conception of how to reach his ends, but from an inadequate conception of what his ends are.”
I agree with Dr. McGeer in that I believe that the emotionality associated with the need for order leads to the rationality of autistic people. The brain punishment system is relatively intact in autistics as compared to sociopaths and when an autistic person senses danger instead of being disconnected from the source of anxiety/fear, the autistic person engages thoughtfully to avoid danger (punishment).
The brain punishment/anxiety system of sociopaths is both hypofunctional and hyperfunctional in that they experience anxiety but fail to engage their thinking brains in the presence of danger. The high functioning autistic is well practiced at using his thinking brain to avoid anxiety. The psychopath rarely uses the thinking brain he has- to do anything other than get into trouble and hurt other people.
There are interesting parallels between the autistic’s use of reason to manage anxiety and normal development. It turns out that anxiety and fearfulness in the first two years of life actually predicts the development of conscience. The brain punishment system seems to be more plugged in to the rational brain in kids who are dispositionally more anxious. These kids also have a more highly developed sense of empathy later on.
I am thankful to Drs. Kenneth and McGeer for their seminal contributions to our understanding of sociopathy/psychopathy. I encourage the scholars among you to purchase their book from Amazon. However, I think they both missed a further unifying explanation for why autistics are moral and psychopaths/sociopaths are not.
That explanation involves the brain reward system, which is fundamentally different in autistics and sociopaths. Autistics do not experience social reward, maybe not even in the sexual sense. They are indifferent to relationships. The main reward autistics live for must be the love of thinking because that is all they have. I don’t see that too many are obese, so I don’t think they even turn to food for their source of pleasure. Instead their inner worlds are rich with thoughts and reason. They busy themselves with their own thoughts. Most like who they are, enjoy life and wouldn’t choose a different life if they could.
The sociopath on the other hand, is completely dependent on social reward. The sociopath cannot tolerate aloneness because he has no entertaining thought-life to fall back on. The problem with the social reward system in sociopaths is that the only social reward they experience is dominance. All of their antisocial behavior is motivated by their dominance drive. When they lie, cheat or steal it is about gaining short term interpersonal dominance over some poor unsuspecting person. Autistics can’t lie and are as indifferent to dominance reward as they are to affection reward.
Dr. Keltner and associates at UC Berkeley are engaged in important research on the effects on people of obtaining social power. It turns out that when many people get power reward they change. Self-esteem increases, empathy is suspended, and they become uninhibited and less rational. They also think more about sex and tend to use more foul language. Their moral agency is diminished.
I believe that this response to power reward is the point of connection between sociopaths and the rest of us. Sociopaths are constantly in a state of power intoxication, or are in search of their next power fix. The rest of us can manage the power reward better, but the behavior of our politicians suggests that power intoxication doesn’t only make sociopaths less rational.
I could use your help on two things this week. First, I want your opinion on the term moral agency. I have been looking for a single term that would describe the moral deficits of sociopaths. Up until now I have used the term low “moral reasoning ability” because I couldn’t find another better term. Do you think people will better connect with/comprehend the term low “moral agency” or poor “moral reasoning ability”? Actually moral agency is more precise and technically more correct, but will people get it?
The second question I have concerns successful psychopaths. When I read the autism papers, it occurred to me that successful psychopaths do one of two things that unsuccessful ones don’t do. They either have a better appreciation for order or organization, or they find someone to organize and order their lives for them. If you know a successful psychopath, can you comment on how he/she is successful in spite of the chaos he/she tends to cause?
Good point, Rune!
Yea, and for MY MONEY the percentage of “psychopathic subclinical” criminals is about 90% not 20%! I ALSO include every pedophile as a psychopath, every rapist. Maybe I am “over reacting” but how could someone commit these crimes if they had a conscience? No Conscience=psychopath.
To me, I realize that there are a few people who go to prison and come out “a better person” but the majority of prisoners are AT BEST dysfunctional when they go in, and prison itself doesn’t improve them any more than putting your collie into a cage for a year as punishment for disobeying, out in the front lawn, rain, snow, or heat pounding down on the poor dog, and then the neighborhood kids poking sticks at its ribs as it sits there in misery and pain, and then…what are you going to do, turn it loose and say to it “Now, have you learned your lesson, go play with the children now and be a good dog.”
I have come to the conclusion that there are NO EX-convicts, if they weren’t a psychopath when they went into prison, they are at least warped when they come out, having lost trust in mankind and probably with PTSD if they aren’t a P to start with. My P-son was a psychopath when he went to prison the first time, but when he came out after two years in prison, he had a PhD in psychopathic behavior….”new and improved” version then became a killer.
BloggerT: Have you ever been in an intimate relationship with a psychopath? You research, you work in a setting that puts you in contact with psychopathic individuals, but have you ever had one insinuate himself/herself into your day-to-day life as a trusted friend or lover?
I’m not putting this forward as a challenge to you, but rather a point of consideration. If a psychopathic individual presented himself as heartless and remorseless, he wouldn’t get anywhere in society. It’s the fact that the fabricated persona is so “authentic-feeling” that they insert themselves into our lives the way they do to accomplish all this damage.
OXY, Either get out the skillet or give me a dose of much needed reassurance.
I went out last night with girlfreinds. Went to a bit of a redneck place with two girlfriends after dinner. Scoped the lot as always to make sure his vehicle wan’t there. I don’t usually se e him there but it’s habit now tolook for his car when I am near home. THe place has really bad karaoke but good dance music in between. We were dancing and having fun and suddenly he walks into the room. I’m certain he saw me. I’m certain he came into the room because I was there.
One of my freinds was furious with me for wanting to leave. I had so much anxiety I came home and vomited. He gets up on the dance floor with, yes the trashy x stripper who is twice his size and mine and finally I couldn’t take it anymore. I told the other friend I have to go. SHe agreed.
I think he needed to be seen. He wanted to put on a show for me and I would not allow it. I left. One friend said “DO you think he’s trying to make you jealous?”. I said no, I think he NEEDS to be seen. He was with a group of people. Two women had teeth missing in front. One looked like she was searching for the nearest pole to dance. THe guys were wearing (not tshirts) undershirts, looked dirty, were very loud. I think they were her x con brothers. I’m disgusted and sick. NONE of the above paragraph matters because quite honestly he doesn’t give a crap about me or anything and I was just a fixture (from day one), one that he knows he will never use again.For a man who cared so much about me looking “classy”……WTF?
I didn’t sleep. I didn’t dream either about him. I can’t be near him WHy? After a year? WHy am I still asking why?
I wrote this to a friend this morning and it’s how I really feel:
“My earlier email wasn’t a question of better off or not without psycho freak. It was about continually struggling with why? Why he chose me? WHy he lied? WHy he is with the kind of woman/people he is with? How could I be so stupid? How are there such evil people in the world who can continue to get by with no justice or realm of punishment for what they do? Not just with regard to breaking the law or violating the stolen valor act or stealing the honor that others lost lives and parts of themselves to earn. NO how about stealing someones heart and spirit and soul because you are so unfaithful, immoral, unethical and disrespectful? Or violating other people’s boundaries by pretneding to be someone you are not and abusing the hell out of anyone for your own personal pleasure?
I am past the “relationship. I am past the lies. I am even past the mind rape. I can’t get past why. THis is where my analytical and logical self is just anal in trying to undersand the psychology behind it and the reality is that there are no answers. I will never understand because people who are selfish, greedy and imulsive will never seem logical to someone like me. THat kind of evil didn’t exist in my world of possibilitites. Thos e words aren’t strong enough to describe what they are and the damage they do.”
I can’t talk to anyone about it anymore. When my kids dwell on simple things I tell them “shit happens, get over it and move on.” If one more person tells me that I am going to die! Some days I feel so smart about all of this and days like today I feel like I have made no progress.
keeping_faith: “THe guys were wearing (not tshirts) undershirts,”
The kind with no sleeves…ribbed knit..known as “wifebeaters”? Figures…
You’re making progress, one day at a time…do what’s best for you. You’re gonna get there!
no Jim not wifebeater. the kind with short sleeves like you would wear under a dress shirt, just dirtier and stained.
I suspect they save the wifebeaters for their various appearances on episodes of “COPS”
Rune, another good point.
After my X-DIL and the Trojan Horse Psychopath were arrested, my egg donor screamed out in pain that “but they were SO RESPECTFUL OF ME!” She just couldn’t believe that anyone that “respectful” was faking…I was the horrible bad one because I lost it in frustration one day when trying to convince her that the TH-P was a pedophile with a looooong record (I had the documentation she would not read or look at it, said I made it up, faked it, using my computer) I had lost it and in frustration told her she was “senile”—-so she was FURIOUS with me for “not being respectful”—-but THEY were “respectful” while they stole her money.
I asked her what she expected, that they should say “give me your money you old bat!” How much money would they have been able to get her to give them if they had done that? I was the only ONE NOT TAKING MONEY, but I wasn’t “respectful” so I was the BAD one. LOL
Yep, the faking it is what the Ps do best, and some of them are really REALLY good and some are only okay, but faking it is all they can do.
Keeping faith –
Once when my S was really “down on his luck” or so i thought.. but what it was – was really the choice he was making not to do anything positive for himself on his own for a job/career. All he could do was tell people he was out of work and sit around and wait for a friend or a friend of a friend to come up with a suggestion or a referral — when low and behold yet another person pulled through and suggested he try for a new career at his sister-in-laws business. Said he would hook him up. Think it was a mortgage co. i was skeptical but, I encouraged and supported him as I always did. He interviewed, he knew it didnt go great for lack of experience but he said “Ill get it, cuz my friend is the brother of the owner in the biz… but it wasnt handed to him..first he had to fill out a credit report and then agree to take and pass a three day course out of town… to get him in to an entry level position with the company with benefits and potential for growth. I saw it at as huge opportunity. He hung up from receiving the offer saying …Im not going to spend 300 bucks on a course, to end up working my ass off for someone sitting in a cubby making phone calls all day, ill lose my mind. I was flabbergasted. Here he was no job, no potential offers coming in and a valid opportunity practically tossed in his lap. I said, i think you need to do whats best for you, but please consider taking this opportunity thats in front of you. You have to work for things. You have to start somewhere, albeit from the bottom. And they are offering you a job with benefits and continued education to eventually get some kind of license, and career. I believe my support and encouragement helped him. He filled out credit report, background check etc. and ordered the books to study.
We were together the morning he got a call from the human resources dept. He saw the number and said “I knew it “- before he even answered. I did not know this, until that moment, but they noted a severely bad credit report ( think he thought they wouldnt even bother to check his credentials)…they said would you care to explain what this is all about. He said no – thank you for your time and hung up. I was in shock. I said why didnt you explain it? Why werent you honest? Why? Why ? Why? He stood up and said/LOUDLY I am $xx,xxx in debt. I ve written bad checks, Ive put my parents thru hell, etc. and nobody will want to hear that. All my life Ive had job after job. Nothing ever working out. AND WHY THE HELL DO YOU EVEN CARE ABOUT MY LIFE? THIS IS MY LIFE NOT YOURS? WHY DO YOU CARE?
I SAID, BECAUSE IM ABLE TO AND I DO.
(dont ask my how I did this- but I convinced him to call back and be honest. He was shaking. I said tell the truth – sometimes people will understand, and sometimes people will still not accept it and choose to pass on you – but tell the truth til someone accepts your truth. Because there are people who will. He proceeded to tell her during college he made poor financial decisions, he abused credit cards, he neglected to pay the bills and be responsible. He doesnt have a reason as to why. And he continued to do that after college. But in recent years he made better choices, started paying back what he could, kept more steady employment and is trying his best to get ahead. She asked if she could look into his recent payment history and get back to him after further review…. He hung up a different human being. i dont think he’d ever been honest about that a day in his life. Long story short, they approved him and the day before he was to leave for his training course – he bailed out. I dont believe he trusted himself, or ever will. He felt defeated, he also says he felt he cant work a desk job, or sit and cold call people all day every day 9 to 5. I was terribly disappointed FOR HIM, but I understood, for first time I really understood what it was like to let fear take over. And I understood that I was with someone who had somewhat of a lost soul, but I believed would find his way.
You asking yourself why, why, why over and over again is quite normal. Perhaps IF you didnt ever question him (rightfullly so tho) as to the things he was doing in the relationship that were red flags – you might still be in the relationship with him. You could be the girl on his arm. How lucky are you that you are not that victim anymore. She isnt questioning his actions, his words right now. Like you didnt in the beginning either. Maybe he’s on his best behavior, but the mask will drop. Or he will get bored. Or he will profess his undying love and then the next day someone unexpected will catch his eye and he is off and running around. The answer to the whys – are the answer I had to face to my question of why isnt he taking this opportunity this amazing job – the answer is HE DIDNT WANT TO, HE WAS AFRAID OF DOING SOMETHING HE IS NOT USE TO, HE DIDNT BELIEVE IN HIMSELF, AND ALL HE KNOWS TO DO/WANTS TO DO IS WHAT HE IS FAMILAR WITH – MAKING EASY AND BAD CHOICES. DOES THIS MEAN HE DIDNT CARE ABOUT ME – IT DOESNT MATTER – HE JUST DOESNT CARE ENOUGH ABOUT HIS LIFE TO MAKE GOOD CHOICES/BETTER CHOICES WHILE HE WAS WITH ME.. SO HE STAYS ON THE PATH HE IS ON. JUST A NEW FACE IN THE PICTURE WHEN THE COMFORTABLE ONES WISE UP. HE DOESNT KNOW HOW TO BE REAL, TO FEEL , TO CARE. HE JUST KNOWS HOW TO EXIST, GET BY, PLAY THE GAME…HOPE SOMEONE NEVER CATCHES ON …BUT LUCKILY FOR YOU — YOU DID.
WHAT I HAD TO DO WAS ASK MYSELF WHY DID I STAY? WHY DID I STAY WITH SOMEONE WHO MADE BAD CHOICES FOR HIMSELF? WITH ME AND FOR ME? WHY DID I STAY WITH SOMEONE WHO EVENTUALLY TREATED ME BAD, WHO DIDNT CARE IF HE HURT ME OR NOT, OR DIDNT HAVE A REAL DIRECTION OR GOAL IN HIS LIFE WHO JUST DIDNT CARE ABOUT HIS FUTURE LET ALONE MINE? HE ONLY LIVES EACH DAY TO MAKE IT TO THE NEXT THRU OTHERS, NOT ON HIS OWN, WHOEVER IS WITH HIM HAS TO FALL FOR HIS DECEIT ACCEPT HIS WAYS OR BE DISCARDED.
I HAVENT TOTALLY FOUND ALL MY ANSWERS YET. BUT ONE OF THEM IS BECAUSE I THOUGHT I COULD CHANGE HIM. ANOTHER ONE IS BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE WANTED TO CHANGE. AND ANOTHER ONE IS BECAUSE IT WAS A DISTRACTION FOR ME NOT TO LOOK INSIDE MYSELF TO FIND OUT WHY I WAS IN THIS DYSFUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIP.
So why did you stay? what we youre thoughts when you were being treated terribly or when you found out things you were comfortable with? Why were you willing to settle for less than you deserve? Why do you want someone like him? The whys arent about him anymore..for me…we know why they do it – they are unable to be any other way.
Start to think about the whys with you…the answers might help you get unstuck – as they did me.
LTL,
Thanks for your response. I think sometimes I am curious as to what goes on with him now so that I may be able to make some sense of him just based on decisions he makes now….. like the trashy stripper chick on welfare. To some extent I know the answers to the questions I ask. Some I will never understand but I think it’s because I don’t truly understand impulsive or selfish behavior. He was married for 26 years and I don’t understand that either. I saw this bizarre behavior in month four or five. It lasted almost two years and there was no way in hell I could have allowed it to continue. He knew that and it’s probably why he is with someone now, much like his x wife, who is afraid to question him.
Why did I stay? For some time I didn’t care about the answers to some of the lies because the answers weren’t significant. I felt bad for the man who was so insecure (so I thought)he told people he was this Navy SEAL, POW who was so good he did covert work for the NSA. WHen the stories got more bizarre and the behavior became more dysfunctional…..I had more questions. Then there were more lies about money and homes and family and eventually all of it was a lie. He only cared about what it “looked” like….nice home = money, loud sporty car = badass. I stayed because THE GOOD WAS GREAT. I LEFT BECAUSE THE BAD WAS TORTURE. The pain became greater than the pleasure and still is !!!!
My questions are more about the psychology and some of the answers have not been found. He may be with her for a long time as he was in his marriage. I sense she knows somethin gisn’t right. He cheated on me with her and her with me. I later found. He would ditch her too. He would accuse her of cheating too and probably still does. Maybe being stupid or blind or just plain ridiculous has its advantages (what we don’t know won’t hurt us?) That’s what he has now. That’s what he had in his x wife and x affair and I’m sure many others. He is now unemployed so I heard. I can’t imagine how someone lik ehim finds another job. You would think he would be in a panic with a nice new home that he couldn’t afford when he WAS working. THERE ARE BAD DECISIONS ALL THE WAY AROUND. I don’t want to mother him or coach him and I’m glad I was NOT the one nursing him back to health after his steroid induced heart attack. I am glad and I know I am lucky.
Maybe not NEEDING answers like I/WE do is a blessing. Sometimes I wish I was one of these people that can simply say, “doesn’t feel right….goodbye” and NEVER look back. I think I need some sense of justice. I don’t think I will see it. It just kills me when things look so good on the surface…… but when we were out together they looked that way too. No one knew or understood the turmoil of a day to day relationship with a sociopath.
LTL, I want to follow up by saying that although I didn’t care that he wasn’t a Navy SEAL POW, or aman who had money from working three jobs, and he didn’t own stuff, it was given to him and he didn’t earn $180000 a year, and he didn’t have a college degree……and on and on and on…… THAT stuff wasn’t important to me about him.
I felt so badly for this man because he HAD to lie to feel good, I LOST SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT a lie is a lie. There was something deeply wrong here and I didn’t look deeply enough, EARLY ENOUGH, to realize it’s not just a game to pick up women or look impressive or even simple insecurity and it KLLS me when guys, in particular, laugh like the lies are no big deal.
I realize now there is a dark dark place in him that these lies come from and I have tried to hard to see and understnad that, and I AM STILL ANGRY with myself for trying to absolve him for the lies. THe lies are a product of other REALLY bad things and I can’t even comprehend it. it makes me feel so naiive sometimes.
keeping faith – I understand what you mean. Material things werent important to me either. I felt sorry for him too. If he really was the person he portrayed himself as being in beginning of our friendship, theres a good chance I would still be in his life today. People change, but as long as the fundamental basics are there – respect honesty etc etc.
“Sometimes I wish I was one of these people that can simply say, “doesn’t feel right”.goodbye” and NEVER look back.” Keeping faith.
The fact that we didnt…and we dont know how to SAY TO OURSELVES AND TO ANYONE WHO PUTS US THERE – THIS DOESNT FEEL RIGHT…GOODBYE! – IS A FLAW OF OURS. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO FEEL IT, SAY IT, BELIEVE IT AND KNOW THATS OUR RIGHT AND SOMETHING WE MUST DO FOR OURSELVES.
Wow did I ever need answers, closure, a sense of justice…for such a long time. I wanted answers, or I wanted to fix it, understand him, figure it all out. The answer for me is he just isnt healthy enough on the inside, mature enough on the inside, or capable enough on the outside to make good healthy choices for himself – let alone for the way to end a relationship.
They deal by just moving on, blocking it out… next co-dependent female in line please….all the rest in line, just be patient your number will eventually come up because Im unable to be real, honest, respectful, aware of others needs, beyond the basics – so none of my relationships ever grow – they just stay stagnant – and if Im lucky to get someone who wants to try to change me or figure me out or has her own flaws – then Ill be in the relationship longer if the money, sex and entertainment is good.