If there is one thing that gets me argumentative it is statements like this one that appeared in a recent research paper: “non-incarcerated psychopaths have an arguably equal potential to illuminate our understanding of the emotional difficulties, such as lack of empathy and lack of conscience, which underlie psychopathy and which lead to offending behaviour.” (emphasis mine)
Now I agree that we can learn from non-incarcerated psychopaths, I wrote recently about a well designed study where sociologists conducted interviews of some. But I cannot believe that statements like the one above make it through editorial review for another reason. Researchers in psychology have spent the last 50 years and untold millions of dollars uncovering the cause of behavior. There is no mystery, we know what causes behavior!
Behavior is caused by rewards and stopped by punishment. Actually rewards cause behavior a lot better than punishment stops it in most people. That is because the brain reward system is functionally stronger than the brain punishment system for most, and especially for sociopaths/psychopaths. The rewards that cause behavior do so because they increase dopamine activity in the mesolimbic dopamine system.
Offending behavior exists and persists because it is rewarding and that reward affects the activity of the mesolimbic dopamine system. To put it bluntly, nothing but desiring/liking to offend leads to offending behavior. To say otherwise is to negate all the work that has been done in this area. The evidence is so strong that genes involved in dopamine metabolism and that system have been identified as candidate genes in the familial transmission of “offending behavior”.
I will repeat, a lack of empathy does not cause offending behavior, neither does a lack of conscience. These two may cause a person to show restraint if he is tempted to aggress against another, but it is the aggressive impulse that causes aggression. So a person with empathy and conscience can still offend if he has the inclination to do so. Furthermore, there is evidence that repeated offending erodes away empathy and conscience.
There is another source of evidence that calls into question the hypothesis that lack of empathy causes the sociopath’s behavior. That source of evidence is people with autism and autism spectrum disorders.
I recently found two very impressive discussions comparing moral agency in autism and psychopathy. The first is, Autism, Empathy and Moral Agency, a paper published in The Philosophical Quarterly (52:340, 2002) written by Dr. Jeannette Kennett, Deputy Director and Principal Research Fellow, Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, The Australian National University. Since I didn’t know to search Philosophical Quarterly for papers on psychopathy, I didn’t find that paper until I read “Moral Psychology, Volume 3, The Neuroscience of Morality: Emotion, Brain Disorders and Development” MIT Press, 2008. Dr. Kennett also has two chapters in that book. But Chapter 5, Varieties of Moral Agency: Lessons from Autism, is a discussion of Dr. Kennette’s paper by Dr. Victoria McGeer, of Princeton University’s Center for Human Values. There is a back and forth discussion of the issues raised, with several noted professors also participating.
Both sources begin their discussions by saying that moral agency has two parts two it, a thinking part and a feeling part. They trace these concepts back to philosophers Kant and Hume. Dr. Kennett concludes that Kant is right and that reason is the most important aspect of moral agency. Dr. McGeer points to emotions being important even for people with autism. I am going to summarize the arguments, then give you my own opinion.
Now like sociopathy, autism is a spectrum. A large percentage of people with autism are mentally retarded, so this discussion involves those autistic individuals who are not mentally retarded. I should point out that many sociopaths also have poor intellectual functioning. These sociopaths tend to live in prison.
Dr. Kenneth quotes the following description of autism,
The most general description of social impairment in autism is lack of empathy. Autistic people are noted for their indifference to other people’s distress, their inability to offer comfort, even to receive comfort themselves. What empathy requires is the ability to know what another person thinks or feels despite that is different from one’s own mental state at the time. In empathy one shares emotional reactions to another person’s different state of mind. Empathy presupposes amongst other things a recognition of different mental states. It also presupposes that one goes beyond the recognition of difference to adopt the other person’s frame of mind with all the consequences of emotional reactions. Even able autistic people seem to have great difficulty achieving empathy in this sense.
Autistic people also experience an “aloneness,” yet this aloneness does not bother them. They are indifferent to the presence of other people and do not require affection. One autistic adult is quoted as saying, “I really didn’t know there were other people until I was seven years old. I then suddenly realized that there were people. But not like you do, I still have to remind myself that there are people. I could never have a friend. I really don’t know what to do with other people really.”
High functioning autistic people recognize that they are very different from other people and report feeling “like aliens.”
Dr.Kenneth correctly concludes, “Both psychopaths and autistic people experience outsider status, deficiencies in social understanding and social responsiveness… Both have a tendency to treat other people as tools or instruments, (they have) a lack of strong emotional connectedness to others and impaired capacity for friendship.” She says clinicians and researchers link these impairments in both psychopathy and autism to impaired empathy. But autistic people are in fact worse off in this respect than psychopaths. Psychopaths at least can interact socially with ease and behave in a charming way.
She correctly questions, “If empathy is crucial to the development and exercise of moral agency, then why is the autistic person not worse off, morally speaking, than the psychopath?” She points out that in spite of the lack of empathy which is at the core of the disorder, “Many autistic people display moral concerns, moral feeling and a sense of duty or conscience.”
That autistic people are not antisocial is evidenced by the observation that few come to the attention of police. I did a Google news search using the terms autistic and arrest. Although there were many arrests of people for abusing those with autism, all of the arrests of autistics for aggression were for aggression that stemmed from self-defense. For example, a 10 year old boy with autism was arrested for assaulting staff at his treatment facility. The boy assaulted staff members because he was afraid and they tried to prevent his escape.
Drs. Kenneth and McGeer basically agree on the source of moral agency in those with autism, and what they say is fascinating with respect to sociopaths. The source of moral agency in autism is a preference for order and organization. Autistic people have reported that their sense of morality comes from a desire to see their world as orderly and organized. Dr. Kenneth states that this need for order gives rise to an extraordinary rationality in high functioning people with autism. She says that since morality is organized and logical that those with autism easily pick up moral principles.
I also did a search on morality in autism and can attest to several studies demonstrating normal levels of moral reasoning in autistic children who are not mentally retarded.
Drs. Kennett and McGeer also agree on the issue of the lack of moral agency shown by sociopaths/psychopaths. They both say that this group just plain doesn’t care about morality or regard moral principles as important. This is where psychopaths and autistics differ. Autistics identify with and value moral principles. Dr. Kennett states, “It is not the psychopath’s lack of empathy, which (on its own at any rate) explains his moral indifference. It is more specifically his lack of concern, or more likely lack of capacity to understand what he is doing, to consider the reasons available to him and to act in accordance with them.”
The point of disagreement of the two experts involves the relative role of emotion and reason in autistic people’s moral agency and valuation of morality. Dr. Kennett says that the autistic person is like Dr. Spock of Star Treck, and views life in purely logical terms. Since morality is logical and rational, autistics embrace it. Dr. McGeer disagrees, she states that the autistic need for order leads to an emotional connection to order and rationality. She feels that emotion does play a role in the moral lives of autistics, since she sees them as emotionally as well as rationally invested in maintaining order.
What about sociopaths/psychopaths and the need for order/organization? This disorder truly involves disorder. Psychopaths/sociopaths thrive on chaos and seem to have a dislike for order. Everywhere they go they are a source of extreme entropy as they take order and turn it into disorder. Both Drs. link the lack of appreciation for order to a lack of thoughtfulness in sociopaths/psychopaths. Sociopaths are both disordered and not fully rational or logical.
Dr. McGeer States:
This failure of reason may seem surprising. After all, our image of the psychopath is of a person who is rather good at serving his own interests without concern for the damage he does to others; hence of someone who is rather good at thinking and acting in instrumentally rational ways”¦As Dr. Carl Elliot observes, “While the psychopath seems pathologically egocentric, he is nothing like an enlightened egoist. His life is frequently distinguished by failed opportunities, wasted chances and behavior which is astonishingly self-destructive. This poor judgment seems to stem not so much from the psychopath’s inadequate conception of how to reach his ends, but from an inadequate conception of what his ends are.”
I agree with Dr. McGeer in that I believe that the emotionality associated with the need for order leads to the rationality of autistic people. The brain punishment system is relatively intact in autistics as compared to sociopaths and when an autistic person senses danger instead of being disconnected from the source of anxiety/fear, the autistic person engages thoughtfully to avoid danger (punishment).
The brain punishment/anxiety system of sociopaths is both hypofunctional and hyperfunctional in that they experience anxiety but fail to engage their thinking brains in the presence of danger. The high functioning autistic is well practiced at using his thinking brain to avoid anxiety. The psychopath rarely uses the thinking brain he has- to do anything other than get into trouble and hurt other people.
There are interesting parallels between the autistic’s use of reason to manage anxiety and normal development. It turns out that anxiety and fearfulness in the first two years of life actually predicts the development of conscience. The brain punishment system seems to be more plugged in to the rational brain in kids who are dispositionally more anxious. These kids also have a more highly developed sense of empathy later on.
I am thankful to Drs. Kenneth and McGeer for their seminal contributions to our understanding of sociopathy/psychopathy. I encourage the scholars among you to purchase their book from Amazon. However, I think they both missed a further unifying explanation for why autistics are moral and psychopaths/sociopaths are not.
That explanation involves the brain reward system, which is fundamentally different in autistics and sociopaths. Autistics do not experience social reward, maybe not even in the sexual sense. They are indifferent to relationships. The main reward autistics live for must be the love of thinking because that is all they have. I don’t see that too many are obese, so I don’t think they even turn to food for their source of pleasure. Instead their inner worlds are rich with thoughts and reason. They busy themselves with their own thoughts. Most like who they are, enjoy life and wouldn’t choose a different life if they could.
The sociopath on the other hand, is completely dependent on social reward. The sociopath cannot tolerate aloneness because he has no entertaining thought-life to fall back on. The problem with the social reward system in sociopaths is that the only social reward they experience is dominance. All of their antisocial behavior is motivated by their dominance drive. When they lie, cheat or steal it is about gaining short term interpersonal dominance over some poor unsuspecting person. Autistics can’t lie and are as indifferent to dominance reward as they are to affection reward.
Dr. Keltner and associates at UC Berkeley are engaged in important research on the effects on people of obtaining social power. It turns out that when many people get power reward they change. Self-esteem increases, empathy is suspended, and they become uninhibited and less rational. They also think more about sex and tend to use more foul language. Their moral agency is diminished.
I believe that this response to power reward is the point of connection between sociopaths and the rest of us. Sociopaths are constantly in a state of power intoxication, or are in search of their next power fix. The rest of us can manage the power reward better, but the behavior of our politicians suggests that power intoxication doesn’t only make sociopaths less rational.
I could use your help on two things this week. First, I want your opinion on the term moral agency. I have been looking for a single term that would describe the moral deficits of sociopaths. Up until now I have used the term low “moral reasoning ability” because I couldn’t find another better term. Do you think people will better connect with/comprehend the term low “moral agency” or poor “moral reasoning ability”? Actually moral agency is more precise and technically more correct, but will people get it?
The second question I have concerns successful psychopaths. When I read the autism papers, it occurred to me that successful psychopaths do one of two things that unsuccessful ones don’t do. They either have a better appreciation for order or organization, or they find someone to organize and order their lives for them. If you know a successful psychopath, can you comment on how he/she is successful in spite of the chaos he/she tends to cause?
LTL, thanks again. I agree with all you wrote. The only thing is that I do believe is that he will find another woman and maybe he already has found her, who will be like the primary relationship he had with his wife. He needs to be withsomeone who he can pull things over on. That wasn’t going to be me. ANd he will keep her around for all the security reasons regardless of who she is, what she believes, how she lives or how disgusting she is…. (maybe in their circle of friends she is the best thing since sliced bread. And based on what I saw last night….well, she has her teeth in front). BUT I have to believe he will cheat on her as he did his wife and me and the woman with whom he had an affair…etc…. because he just does. He will continue to lie until the FBI catches up with him. He will probably lose that house. In the end when his daughters and his x wife find ALL the truth about him, they will be in the same PTSD place that I am and I don’t wish that on anyone……maybe they already are. He jsut doesn’t give a shit.
Dear KF,
I am so sorry you are still questioning the “why” and trying to “make sense” of the UN-sensible (how’s that for a new red-neck word?) You might as well be asking, I am afraid, “Why is the sky blue mommie? Huh? Huh? Why is the sky blue?”
He is obviously with what we here in the south would call “white trash.” Of course, being with people he considers his INFERIORS gives him a narcissistic supply to bolster up his ego. His claiming to be “all kinds of things” he wasn’t is also to bolster up his own fragile narcissistic ego. When he convinces someone he is those things, for that moment he IS those things because there isn’t a lot of difference between reality and fantasy for him.
Being the “biggest fish in a small pond” (having what appears to his “friends” as a LOT of money) makes him the big dog on the block and they will toady to him which gives him narcissistic supply, but since he reallly knows they are trash, he does’nt value that Narcissistic supply, so —–well you get the idea, it is like a hamster on a wheeel the faster he goes the FASTER HE GETS NO WHERE.
You being upset by watching him strut his stuff is a normal reaction to seeing him. When I saw my egg donor unexpectedly at the store, it did the same thing to me.
Actually, it also let me know that that “stress response” (I didn’t vomit but I felt like I needed to) is a response from your body to a BIG shot of adrenaline (stress hormones) and at least it is tellingyou that you no longer live that way 24/7 & 365 So, what you need to do now, IMHO, is to ABSOLUTELY AVOID SEEING HIM. It gives you stress and disrupts your healing, so avoid him like the plague. I’m doing that with my egg donor. THERE MAY COME A TIME when I have enough “control” over myself that I won’t react with a sudden and INTENSE stress response (like you have been bitten by a dog and then you are afraid of dogs) you were bitten by this man and now he PROVOKES AN INTENSE FEAR/STRESS RESPONSE—-normal response considering the circumstances.
Hang in there darling, and you DO get a BOINK!!!! for going out where you might see him, so don’t do that any more. (((((hugs))))) and always my prayers for you!
Oxy, You are the wisest of them all. You hit the nail on the head! Much Love to YOU! It is an “un-sensible” situation and thank God it is for us. I certainly do not ever want to think like a S!
Thank you for keeping us all in line with the Boink!!!!
Hugs to you too….
Thanks Oxy,
All that you said makes sense. It does put it in perspective. I can’t tell you the things I felt as I observed this group. I felt dirty. I felt embarrassed for him. I felt sick for myself that I actually loved and dated and slept with this guy who is sleeping with these trashy people in more ways than one. PLEASE don’t think I am judgemental. I am going on behavior that I observed and not being judgemental about people of a modest socioeconomic background. You and I had an exchange before about white trash with and without money !!!!!
I am not going to my gym anymore. It was 75 degrees here today. i will jog outside and do my weights here at home. If I go to the gym, I can hit up a different one during the week on my way home form work.
THis past summer and fall he must have been recovering and maybe that’s why he wasn’t so visible. I think the drama will all start up again now that he is no longer ill and is physically stronger. There are plenty of restaurants/bars that he won’t go to simply because his white trash friends and probably he, cannot afford so i will stick to a higher level of redneck, if you know what I mean. Thanks for the BOINK I deserved it and needed it. Mostly, thanks for the support. it’s been a rough week since I saw him last Friday. I’m done playin !!
OXY, I just want to comment on this as we all look for commonalities with these idiots. It is obvious that the XS feels some power through surrounding himself with people. He doesn’t care at all about what the morals or values of those people are. he cares about the control, the ease of manipulation, and as you pointed out oxy :
“being with people he considers his INFERIORS gives him a narcissistic supply to bolster up his ego.”
Isn’t that the result he is looking for? Even to the extent that he doesn’t concern himself (at least up front) with how others may view him. Or is it that he has to put on the good show that they are of value , when maybe deep down he knows they are nothing and mean nothing to him. As was true of me and I consider myself on a different level than his current friends. Maybe it’s all a show and for himself not even for the bystanders like me or his family or his x wife. There are many examples of this that I can think of.
He doesn’t seem to have the capacity to evaluate differences in people based on things like belief systems, values, integrity or lack there of, level of intellect, or even good dental hygiene LOL……….. We are all the same regardless. We are simply supply until he decides we are of no worth to him. I do think this group of friends will last a while. he is in a vulnerable position (unemployed, recent surgery) in that his conquests were mostly made in his travels for work. Now he doesn’t have a job. He needs these people more FOR NOW. But would rather die than ever admit that. I’m sure that feeling alone is causing a whole new kind of drama for him and them, particularly the girlfriend.
keeping_faith:
“BUT I have to believe he will cheat on her as he did his wife and me and the woman with whom he had an affair”etc”. because he just does.”
You don’t have to believe it, you KNOW it. Jethro will cheat on Jethrine (that’s what we call ’em in my part of the South). These creatures are constitutionally unable to be faithful, tell the truth or any other key requirement for two adults to have a relationship.
Dear KF,
Matt is totally right, this “group of people” that we refer to as “trash” have a lifestyle that does not include morality, responsibility, etc. by the “common definition.” Many of this group of people are low income because of the LIFESTYLE they embrace, not embracing that lifestyle would mean they went to work, held a job, got an education, etc. and they don’t aspire to those things.
“The rolling stone gathers no moss”—they don’t accumulate money, homes, possessions, stability because they are NOT stable, they are irresponsible, live skirting the law, or over the line in criminal activity.
Sure, some of us have lost our jobs, lost our homes, have little left to show for a life time of work because it was bam-boozled away from us by our relationships with psychopaths. Bad decisions. The difference is that we DO feel a sense of responsibility to support ourselves, to take care of our children, to be honest and “upright” so even if we have nothing physical or financial left, we still have OURSELVES and our MORAL COMPASS. WE may be financially broken, emotionally broken and wounded, but we are NOT TRASH.
Many very wealthy people are TRASH–Bernie Madoff is a prime example. What was that “Hotel Queen’s” name, can’t even remember it, but the one who got in trouble for tax evasion and for abusing her employees.
My P son after his transformation from “honor student” to thug started to hang out with the thugs in the neighborhood rather suddenly, after dumping his good, bright and nice friends like hot potatoes. He is very very bright but he feels infinitely superior to people of lower intellect than himself. He loves impressing them, and even impressing the guards at the prison where he is with his “genius.” Yep, he’s a “genius” for sure—no matter what his IQ is though, or how high it is, he is definitely TRASH. But HE sees himself as grandiose, larger than life, exciting, successful, when all he has ever been is a thug and a murderer. He also makes up stories of his wild successes on the outside when there is NO WAY he could have done any of these things, he’s essentially been incarcerated all but a few months since he was 17 1/2—he hasn’t been a SUCCESS at anything since 7th grade. As long as he can convince some convict that isn’t really very bright, that he is a “big shot” on the outside, then he feels better about himself. Sheesh! What aspirations he has, impressing the other convicts with sub-human IQs that he is a genius. Big deal! KF, your X is just as pathetic…and that is the only word I can think of to describe that confabulation about how great they are. They don’t even know enough to tell a believeable lie.
Rune not only was my mother a psychopath but my first wife was one as well. That is something that I do not usually disclose to people because of my children and what happened to them when she and I split up. Back then the courts pretty much automatically gave custody to the mother regardless and in my case in was no different. It took almost 10 years for childrens services to take the children from her. Why did they take them from her? Because she had been physically, emotionally and sexually abusing them and they finally were able to prove it.
As for the prison population I see people trying to say that anti-social behavior is the same as being a psychopath when it is not. If you look at the prisons you will find that the higher the classification you go the more psychopaths you will find. Minimum/Medium security places have the least with the Maximum and supermaximum ones having the most.
If you look at the last article I posted you will see this:
Two conditions–sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder–often get confused with psychopathy. Sociopathy refers to criminal attitudes and behaviors viewed as normal in certain groups, such as street gangs. Sociopaths have a sense of right and wrong that is based on the values of their criminal group.
Antisocial personality disorder, an official psychiatric ailment, is a diagnosis applied to people who commit a broad range of aggressive and criminal acts. Some qualify as psychopaths, but many don’t.
And that is what I see happening. Trying to lump all anti-social behavior into psychopathy. Maybe it is just semantics and they are different levels BUT I have seen and there are numerous people who have been the “sociopath” as described above and anti-socials who have changed their lives for the good. There are “sociopaths” as described above who could easily commit anti-social/psychopathic acts against a rival gang person (the us and them) yet they truly and deeply care for their own family members, friends, etc. They have empathy and compassion for one of “us” but not one of “them”.
Then there are the addicts. People who got hooked into the drug lifestyle and committed anti-social/psychopathic acts to continue their drug use and lifestyle yet some of these people, like the gang member above, get free of the lifestyle and turn around and devote their lives to trying to help others.
Look at the Columbine school shootings. It would be easy to label BOTH those kids as psychopaths yet only one of them was. (I’ll link that article below). People do what is considered anti-social acts for many different reasons.
And Rune yes it is true that a psychopathic individual can con an interviewer, heck anyone can be conned by anyone. That is also why proper training and ongoing training and evaluation of the person using the tool is so important. There is a lot of other materials that are involved also. As for the scores, if you read the last article I posted that has a different number of views/theories in it, you will see this comment:
Consider that psychologists working for the prosecution and the defense in criminal cases often generate disparate psychopathy scores for the same defendants, Edens says. To make matters more confusing, the incriminating score of 30 or more on the PCL-R hasn’t been rigorously linked to psychopathy.
Edens recommends that courtroom psychologists report a confidence range for each psychopathy score assigned to a defendant. Scores of individuals given the test under different conditions typically span 14 points, he says.
Now seeing as they did not list any references for the claims made in the article I have no idea if that is true or not. The 14 point span would not surprise me though. When we did assessments (not the PCL) we had months of training on the tool we were using to make sure we all were on the same page of understanding how to use it properly and then we had ongoing eval’s and training to make sure we are all still doing so as time went on. Without the ongoing checks our scores would have been widely varying depending as well. But think about it. A 20 with a 14 point span could be a 34 or 6.
Here is the link to that last article I posted http://www.thefreelibrary.com/_/print/PrintArticle.aspx?id=156002013
Oxy – I agree with you that pedophiles are psychopathic. As for other sex offenders it varies depending on what exactly the case is because the term sex offender covers a wide variety of crimes. I also agree that the prison setting, in our country anyway, does not help people and I think often makes people worse. When I was doing sex offender treatment I often made the comments to co-workers that for the psychopathic ones all we were really doing was helping to make them better criminals because now they knew what to say and how to act to better fool people and professionals.
And Rune, Oxy, everyone, I am also struggling and trying to get discussion and dialogue about psychopathy. If I come across as trying to discount your thoughts please know I am not and I value hearing everyone’s thoughts on the matter. The nice thing about science is that many things change and good science is all about being open to and even knowing that things can and do change as new evidence is found. Personally I would not be surprised to find that all these theories are right and wrong. And since this is an issue that has a great deal of subjectivitiy in it, it makes it harder to tease everything out. The columbine case is one example of how subjective the issue can be. How many people think both were psychopaths or neither were?
And here is the link to the Columbine story were they talk about the one being a psychopath and the one not and why http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/
Dear BloggerT: Thank you. You, like me, are researching and reconsidering your life, and hoping for new breakthroughs, while having a life education in skepticism about the reality of “treatment” for people who are deeply disordered. I appreciate you sharing your background of experience. This means a great deal as I look at your comments.
I read the Slate.com article and I was in complete agreement that the “nice kid” was the really scary one of the two. This is where our notions of what “normal” looks like and what “psychopathic” looks like can be wildly different, depending on our experience.
The S/P I was recently involved with is apparently also a serial pedophile, underneath his highly “spiritual” persona. He is also not very organized, although he “fakes” organization in an interesting way. He might look like a “successful psychopath” but he is continually choosing chaos over anything that might reasonably serve his “greed.” Yet, he look so very credible. Because his act is so good, he really doesn’t look like someone who would test a certain score on the PCL-R, unless you had a real-life “longitudinal” study on him, as I did. I had several serious events when I wondered if he was planning to kill me. I didn’t have any way to comprehend at the time the terror running through my veins. Now I think that he knew how bright I was and how well-versed I was in research, and psychological research, and he was afraid that I would figure him our and I might be dangerous. I believe the way that he used his D&D was specifically intended to discredit what I might have figured out about his pathology. He was also a “Navy SEAL.” (Well, not quite, but same difference in the hero stories he told.)
Thank you for disclosing a difficult part of your own history. I’m having to face many things from my past as I now work through unexplained dark times in my own history. The other night I remember the cops sitting in my living room, gently listening to me as I explained my terror over the threats my ex had made. I remember this one man, blond, so young, and I remember the bulk of his bulletproof vest under his uniform. Yes I believe that my gun-carrying ex had been outside. I was grateful on that night that I was believed. I had forgotten that night, as I have repressed so many moments of terror. That moment was decades ago, with a different sort of psychopathic individual. Yes, for appropriate clinical reasons I also would say he was psychopathic, but his patterns were different.
I welcome our dialogue, and I’m sure that as we all share our stories we can all learn more and help in furthering understanding to protect ourselves and those we love.
Blogger, I am WITH you on the “changes” in “Science”—especially the social sciences where it is difficult to come up with HARD EVIDENCE, and there is always an inter-rater problem as well. As more hard science is able to be applied to psychology (like the hormones and genes involved in our emotional and mental make up being studied) I think things will advance very fast, in the meantime, we are still not in agreement on what the NAME OF THE DISORDER is and if it is 1,2, or 3 separate disorders, plus if the person has maybe several OTHER illnesses or disorders that also impact on behavior—WHAT IS THE DIAGNOSIS? LOL When I was working clinically and evaluating patients and filling out all the little forms and check lists to come up with a “clinical diagnosis” I was always cognizant of the legal and other implications in tagging someone with a diagnosis that might not be right or missing something.
The discussions here, even if I don’t agree with the conclusions, at least make me THINK about what is going on. The BOTTOM LINE though for us that are not clinically and legally involved with them is that WE DON’T HAVE TO COME UP WITH A DIAGNOSIS except that THEY ARE TOXIC. For our purposes as “victims” or “former victims” we just have to know that we can’t change them, they don’t want to change, no matter what they say.
Yes, you are right, there ARE a few individuals who clean up from drugs and alcohol, and there ARE a few that come out of prison “better men” than they went in, HOWEVER, THAT SAID, the percentage is LOW for that. SO, for MY purposes, the SAFEST thing for me to do is to be wary of any “ex-“convict, and any “former” drug addict. I admit that in my youth I smoked my share of grass as many of the kids of the 60s did, I’ve even been drunk, but thank God I am not an addict of illegal drugs, I don’t “crave” any kind of substances except nicotine (which is bad enough) and caffeine, but those two “cravings” do let me know somewhat it is that makes people continue to crave and use substances that are harmful for them. I haven’t quit smoking entirely, but I do chew a bunch of nicotine gum to keep the urges down—-good thing I guess I don’t crave heroin as I would probably be on methadone. Fortunately, none of my kids are “addicts” and I don’t take credit for that, because they have all had the opportunity I am sure.
What Rune pointed out about us having to face the difficult parts of our past is very true with me as well. I had not “forgotten” a lot of things, but just pushed those memories back down, or “explained” them with some kind of phrases or words that made those memories not seem so terrible. Facing those memories, and dealing with them, then moving on is a daunting task while we are in the acute stages of grieving over the lost relationship, I think it is only when we get over that ACCUTE phase and STAY on the road to healing, rather than think, “Oh, wow, I’m healed,….” because then we (at least in my case) started on the next or continuing relationship with the next or even the same P.
My focus now is on ME–on what it is about ME that made me vulnerable to being hooked into such a dysfunctional relationship. I could sit down with YOU (that’s the universal you) and diagnose your problems, give you some good insight, but I couldn’t do the same thing for myself. I saw myself not the way I WAS but the way I WANTED to be. Now I am having to face my own hypocrisy, my own failure to do what I taught to others.
One of the greatest things about this LF site is the level of education and knowledge of all the posters and writers here is so WAAAAAY above the average blog. It gives you reason to think as well as feel, and some very very good insights. I know what I have had here in the way of support has helped me very very much on my own “road to healing.” I am going to STAY on that road and NOT get back on the ROAD TO HELL which has been paved with my own good intentions and poor judgment!