Last week Lovefraud posted an article that described one woman’s experience of romantic manipulation by a sociopath. Another reader responded with advice.
This woman had been married to a narcissist, which in many ways is similar to a sociopath. Once she divorced him and started dating again, she relied on a list of red flags. “If I saw even ONE flag, the guy was OUT of my life, period,” she says. Here is her list.
Red flags
1) Needing to be around you as much as possible and knowing where you are at all times.
2) Refusing to have any meaningful social life, even with his own family.
3) Telling you what to wear and advising what is “appropriate clothing” for you.
4) Requesting that you spend all your free time with him and NONE with friends. (In the beginning, you can see friends on a limited basis, but he has to be there.)
5) Absolutely NO male friends or hugging any male.
6) Dictating what you look like, i.e., you should wear glasses instead of contact lenses, less makeup, less jewelry, etc.
7) No more going to the gym, men might look at you there while exercising.
8 ) Outright anger when you join a church or any other “institution.” The REAL issue is…he is afraid a priest or other “authority” will tell you what to do and “control” you.
9) Encouraging you to engage in unhealthy habits like not losing weight. They use these “bad habits” later to criticize you.
10) You cannot be “too friendly.” People might get the “wrong idea,” especially MEN.
11) You have the feeling of walking on eggshells, waiting for a blow-up if you say the wrong thing or say the right thing in a way he does not like.
12) You know he thinks he is smarter and better than others by his almost constant criticism of others…words like “idiot” and “slow learner” are a common part of his everyday language as he discusses others.
13) He loves the thrill of a good “fight” with nearly anyone, but when he perceives himself as the loser, he is a very poor one and there are always rationalizations for WHY he lost and they have nothing to do with HIM, of course.
14) He acts like he cares what you think, gives lip service to being “liberal” and open minded but his actions are the opposite.
15) He thinks absolutely NOTHING of lying and will take advantage of anyone at anytime if it furthers his goals.
16) You have never met anyone like him”¦he does things that no one else does…his behavior is simply outrageous to others and they shake their heads and say what GALL!
17) The rules do NOT EVER apply to him…he is above them.
18) He resents, on many levels, having to care for his children unless a woman is around to take on most of the “burden.”
19) He often “forgets” what he is supposed to do for his children (especially when it involves anything to do with money).
20) He says things that simply make NO sense and you, as a rational, logical person, just cannot quite figure it out.
21) He shows up with no notice at your job or home (no common sense of courtesy).
22) When he thinks he is being rejected, he calls, emails, comes to your home or job obsessively and often actually stalks.
23) Early in the relationship you are his “whole world” and he does not want to spend any time with anyone but you.
24) He seldom thanks anyone for anything.
25) These men are VERY adept at fooling others”¦everyone thinks they are just great and love you so much”¦BEWARE!
By the way, the woman who compiled—and applied—this list of red flags has healed and met a wonderful man who is now her fiancé.
SO true about how they do it over time…mine was so good he started having me fall for him over the phone back in 2005. didnt meet him online…he had visited my business as a casting director and we stayed in touch and then in 2007 he sent the email professing he’s love and saying i was soulmate and basically putting me on that pedastal and even saying he was going to marry me and loves me and then by middle of 2008 i was in love . i cant believe i allowed the control all the way from another state for all that time..he was so jealous of other males i always thought that since we had not even seen each other in years …was so strange..
im going to read that link now..
thanks
Yes I also have strong objections to the ‘choice’ factor and the willing victim theorem – they are far too simplistic to be realistic – hey that rhymes! Another poster pointed out that these relationships develop over time – gradualism – it’s like the old analogy of the lobster in the pot. If you throw a live lobster into a pot of boiling water it will jump out, but if you put it into cold water and gradually heat it, by the time it realises it is dangerously hot, it is too late. It’s the same with these relationships.
I like to think of the concept of informed choice or informed consent – I was not aware of things like personality disorders when I began and was entangled in the relationship so while I was being manipulated I was unaware – almost sleep walking after a while. But I am aware now so will definitely be extremely careful about who I invite into my life whether they are a friend or something more. So going forward now that I am aware it is definitely my choice who I shut out and who I let in.
Another poster pointed out the impact of prior trauma and conditioning on our ability to make good choices – we wouldn’t expect someone who was mentally impaired to be held totally accountable for all of their actions … I see it is the same in these relationships. The targets ( I don’t really like the term victim) are literally mentally impaired after living with the abuse and projection of the SPN – they are brainwashed and their framework for reality and self efficacy / self esteem is severely impaired. I am not making excuses for the dumb decisions I made (like stayign with him for so long) – this is just the reality of these relationships. It does us no service to take on this rhetoric of psychobabble in analysing the past – we can certainly use it for the future in making better choices though.
It doesn’t always take ‘two to tango’ – sometimes there is one party who offers their best and one party who completely blindsides them by trying to covertly destroy them. Why should I take responsibility for his bad actions? They are all his and not mine. Yes I should have cut him out of my life earlier, but that is the ONLY thing I could have done differently. Abuse is never a ‘two to tango’ situation – it is always ONE abusive party and one trying to make it work. A target is never responsible for the abuse perpetrated on them no matter how long it takes them to recognise that what they are experiencing is abuse.
Style1 – this is an important idea here
“I’ve been doing a lot of thinking over the last few days” thinking back on my life.. and choices and why.. and even though I am independant and aware.. My bad choices in men were because I gave them the benefit of the doubt above myself.. That they ‘somehow’ knew more, have more of an ability to get things done or something.. just because that they are men”
I gave a bit of my destiny over to them and they always failed me.. now not totally as I learned fast to watch these guys ” to know that they aren’t what they might appear or what they are selling..”
I too gave the benefit of the doubt to others and for some reason gave this man more credence than myself for the simple fact he owned a penis. That is crazy when I look back on it, but I see where it came from with CHristian ideals about marriage and the wifely role. I didn’t give myself the benefit of the doubt in trusting my own instincts when things started to go bad, but he always deserved a ‘second chance’ (and third, fourth, fifth – in fact we’re up to the hundreds in this relationship!) I also gave him power over my destiny in trying to be a good woman for him and deferring constantly to what he wanted. I thought in marriage you were meant to throw in your very best and the other person would do the same – the experience really destroyed me.
I lost myself completely and became just a machine to support him – he cared nothing about me or my needs at all. I would cry and say ‘I don’t know who I am anymore’ and he would make me feel that he didn’t know what I was talking about and it must be my own private depression because there was nothing wrong with the relationship as far as he was concerned. I then felt great shame for feeling legitimately depressed about getting none of my needs met – he had a knack of turning everything around to make it my fault. It was never anything he had done or any pattern of let downs that had caused the relationship =- he would blame it on hormones or say ‘everyone has down days sometimes’ or would completely ignore it or would be impatient and angry about it. He tried to make me feel I was lucky that he even stuck around.
I don’t take responsibility for the abuse he wrought on me. I didn’t even know it was abuse until almost the very end. I had no clue about personality disorders at all and wasn’t expecting to be attacked by this person who professed to ‘love’ me. So yes when we are awake and aware of what is going on then yes = if we stick in a recognisably bad situation then that is our choice. BUt when not aware, how can we be making ‘choices’. I was just sleepwalking through life through much of the relationship – programmed to meet his needs and neglect all of my own and then fighting the legitimate depression that emerged to tell me this was a very wrong and bad situation. The relationships with SPNs are like a labyrinth with no path to the centre – they are unsolvable and this is by design. They like to keep us puzzling because while we are puzzling about the relationship we are hooked and won’t leave. The mind games leave us with no ability to think objectively – it is only when non contact is implemented that we are able to see with clarity, but by then the relationship is already over.
Fahrahri – questioning yourself and the ‘diagnosis’ of SPN is so common among survivors it could be listed as a stage of early healing. Many many people have posted about it here. Don’t worry about it – just trust that you were absolutely right and recognise that the questioning and doubt are a conditioned response – the SPNs like to make us feel guilty when we try to think independently – especially if our thinking puts them in anything but a perfect light. Just remind yourself how bad he was for you and how cruel – if you haven’t already, make a list of all the terrible things he did and all the abnormal behaviours and traits – read it often!
fahrahri,
It also helps to understand that much of what you are suffering through right now is the addictive element of the relationship you had with him.
When an S/P/N comes into your life and created the “illusion” of himself to be “the one” that is very seductive right from the start. That seduction hooks you in.
The illusion they create delivers dreams and promises that it will never deliver. Just like a drug creates an illusion to a drug addict. (that it will never deliver) The high is the illusion.
But it doesn’t just trigger your heart it also triggers your brain.
You are not just struggling with “heart felt” matters right now from this relationship. You are struggling with the addictive element as well.
That is the craving part. The addict always chases the “first” high. That is the one that “felt good”. (the illusion the drug created) The addict craves and is DRIVEN to “feel” THAT FIRST high again. He never will feel that again. That high he felt the first time doesn’t exist.
Addiction creates illusions. It seduces that part of the brain. The “feel good” part. And it is VERY strong. You crave the very thing that destroys you.
That is why N/C is the solution. Because N/C starts to give clarity after time. Lifts the fog. The triggers we deal with are no different than what a drug addict faces. One little “hit” can take us right back.
This is also why we can be sucessful with N/C for awile but get drawn right back into the relationship by a single phone call or email or text…..The addiction is so strong.
fahrahri says:
OK”Has ANYONE else gone back and started questioning themselves after they knew what they were dealing with?
IE; he had all this love and contacting me and pressuring me and now the last day he hasnt even attempted contact ??? what is that about”so of course it has be second guessing”maybe he isnt a sociapath? maybe it is me?
in his last email to me he said ”.”now go with all your men and let me be—let him be ??? im so confused!!!
……………………………………………………………….
fahrahri,
Mine did a similar twist… in the end .. he started saying that ‘I’ was the one that wanted him to move in with me and that I asked him three times.. and that I was the one that wanted to get married.. They twist it all to suit their purposes…
I got messed up in my head and talked with a friend that reminded me that I told her all the time that I didn’t want him living with me.. and I also, told him and her that I didn’t want to get married.. it was like I was brainwashed and led by him.. and I could see what he was doing, but like a zombie I went with it anyway.. they turn everything to make themsleves feel ‘good’ about themselves.. I asked him several times to get his own apt.. and to date me to see where this is going.. he wanted to get married ASAP.. and I said no .. we could be engaged forever.. and that would be fine..
I said that I would have to have a prenup. He said that he didn’t believe in them. That what is his is mine and what is mine is his.. well, he didn’t have anything.. as I discovered.. but later he stated that he would sign a prenup.. they twist and turn to get to their agenda and that is control.. this man was looking to marry.. so that he would ‘have’ me.. and it would be more difficult to get way. When with his last wife, the one that died that he married in like two weeks, he could not afford a divorce and she died….
Also… with my first husband right out of college..I had no clue that men could be such cons… but right before we married..I had this feeling in my gut that I shouldn’t marry him.. but the plans were in place and being a good girl I went with the plans…
So even when I was only 23 with little experince, my gut was working, but I didn’t listen to it.. I should’ve blown this clown off and gone to Europe with a girl friend and have life experinces.. because this guy turned out to be a cheater, a gambler, a liar, a con, and even had a child with his secretary while we were married and I was being the good little wife supporting him in his business, entertaining, teaching ballet and being on the social scene. He lived a double life and I had no idea.. because my mind doesn’t work that way. Sure, I saw and felt things that I didn’t like and I wasn’t happy.. but we were working towards goals… when he was revealed, I went into shock for awhile.. then I got out of it.. and his last words to me were ” I always loved you.”
He was married the day after the divorce was final.. and he tried to take everything from me in the divorce… but I got what was left. The judge saw right through him…
And SO DID I had I listened to my gut…..
That is the point.. once they see that you don’t see them.. they have their playground and the con gets bigger and worse.
Yesterday.. I had a minor run in with one.. I was out looking at houses in a very upscale area near where I live.. I stopped in to order a pizza to go.. I asked for a cup to get some ice because I was thirsty.. I got ice and a soda and sat waiting for the pizza planning on paying for the soda when I went up to get the pizza.. I had already paid for …
I was just sitting there alone and this man from behind the counter in a very rude manner came over to me and slammed a bill for the soda down and said that will be $1.86.. we don’t get away free food. And here is a to go cup. His attitude was horrible.. I was stunned..
I got the $1.86 and took it to him and inquired. Are you asking me to leave? He said in the rudest of tones.. we don’t give away free food.. I said that I was sitting and waiting for my pizza and was going to for my drink pay when I got it…
This escalated… I felt that feeling in my gut.. he was taking something out on me..because this wasn’t about a soft drink.
I had over paid him a penny and he shouted. Here is your penny, you overpaid..
I didn’t take it..
I sat there.. thought then walked up and said that I want my money back. I do not want the pizza..
To which he turned around and said in a more humble attitude. “This is really good pizza, ask anyone.”
To which I stated.. it is not about the pizza.. it is about your attitude.. there was no reason for you to use that tone with me. I was sitting here with every intention of paying for my soft drink. You accused and attacked me and I will never be in here again.He slowly gave me the money back that I paid for the pizza.. and I left.
He cut off his nose to spite his face. He was being a jerk and talking in an abusive tone to me.. and I recognized immediately the feeling that I had..he was a jerk .. he was strong arming me…
He could have said the same thing and been friendly. it could’ve been handled so that it all turned out fine ..
Instead.. he was being that bully attitude.. so I left him with a pizza almost ready and no money for it..
I will add I am well-known in my area and eat out often and I have never in my life been talked to the way that this creep did..
I have had it with this strong arming, hateful for no reason kind of behavior..
He assumed something, treated me like dirt and he was incorrect…
So I will never go in there again..TA DA! over done..
Get it! This a small example of what I am talking about .. when you feel that twinge in your gut.. you KNOW that something is off… get out, get away… protect yourself.. slam them .. don’t let them slam you…
And if someone tries to choke you during sex.. WHY in the world would you ever be with that man again?
I know some people are into that.. but obviously you aren’t.
It’s that saying.. “When someone shows you who that they are believe them.” Don’t make excuses for them..That is what that they want.. they want you to be intimidated, scared.. to do what it is that they want…
It would be like with that rude pizza guy.. I could say to myself, well, I understand he thought that I would steal a drink so let it go..
NO! I wasn’t stealing I was sitting in a restarunt and I had not left..
HE was being insulting and rude..
He could have mentioned it and been nice.. And all would have been well… but he didn’t and he lost..
Now, this is a little incident but it shows alot… I will bet that that the pizza guy is an abuser..I bet he abuses women in his life… and I was not going to let him do that to me..
Don’t let people disrespect and assume things.. and infiltrate yourself.. I am learning that big time..
does this make sense?
If you let someone treat you in negative ways.. that make you feel bad, shakey, off kilter, assuming things, taking you on their emotional ride.. they will do it..
It is called boundaries…
And how you allow someone to treat you shows them what you think of yourself and how much that they can get away with.. and those with no respect for you will talk to you, do to you, take from you, and do whatever that they want as long as they can get away with it..
So if you LET THEM DO IT after they show you who that they are.. aren’t you volunteering for whatever it is that they dish out.. because you saw it….
And I really wanted that pizza…
get it… we really want what the cons put into their dream… and was put up with whatever it is that they dish out hoping that the dream is true..
After the way that that pizza man spoke to me.. that pizza would’ve tasted like DIRT!
Do you get my pizza lesson? Man, I did big time!
I forgot the final blow.. I was saying to the pizza man..I was going to pay and there was no reason for you to be so rude.. and he tells me to “Go sit down and to wait for my pizza.”
Did you all get this…?
Everything in me clicked… this man is an abuser and a control freak. That is when I asked for my money back and his mood changed.. because he realized that his abusing and terrible attitude caused him to lose…
So, that is what happens with the cons.. when they see that they are losing, they change their angle… whichever way that they need to to make themselves come out okay…
they are blustery blow hards.. insecure freaks.. that like to strong arm and control no matter what form that it takes or how ‘good’ it can look at the time.. they are out to infiltrate and to control…and win they have you where that they think that they want you they change and it you change.. it throws them off.. so they just try a new angle…
For a moment, I thought what is it about me that allowed that man to speak to me so rudely…
Then fast a recognition… it is NOT ABOUT ME.. it is about HIM….
AWARENESS!!!!
But if I allowed it, sit where he told me, waited for my pizza. I would be ALLOWING him to control me. like there aren’t tons of places to get a pizza…
Like there are lots of men out there looking for a great woman..
We are being brainwashed into thinking that this guy is the one.. rather than us deciding that he is on our own…they are convincing us… and we believe them…
you don’t need to be convinced when something feels right..
when it is right.. it FEELS right not contrived, forced, rushed, spun, too much too soon..
so you decide how that you want to be treated.. what you will accept.. what you will wait for, what you will be told to do.. what boundaries you will put in place for your well-being and safety…and life..
It is your life not theirs…
I am waking up to that more and more each day..
they try to take over, tell you want to want, what to be like..
mine in the beginning had me thinking that we would move to Jamica.. because of this resort deal that they were putting through.. I DON’T WANT TO MOVE TO JAMICIA.. I told him that.. but he just kept on talking and convincing.. like I didn’t exist… (just like sit there and wait for your pizza)
of course, the Jamica deal didn’t happen like all of his big deals didn’t happen…
then he was off trying to convince me of something else…
like the pizza jerk after insulting me, after I said that I want my money back I don’t want your pizza.. was telling me how good his pizza is…..
Gotta laugh at the simplicity in the awareness
But no one treats me badly again….
Dear Style: TOWANDA!!!! You really did it “in style” and graceful with the pizza man!l What a wonderful example to start a PNS-free 2010 🙂
Congratulations, and have a very successful week to come!
Fahrahi – re questioning ourselves after we know:
I kept notes about the things that seemed off or weird to me during the relationship – in my mind and on paper
they are scattered – not in one place (both he ones on paper AND the ones in my mind). and i Haven’t tried to bring them all togehter. But i run across them. I didn’t know WHAT i was delaing with, but I KNEW I was dealing with something.
I am, right now, dealing with the trauma of ‘finding out’, and assembling the real facts, so that gets most of my attention;
the first piece of inof i found that contextualized what i was going through was an article on the net about being , ‘conned.’ so early on I ‘got’ HOW the spath duped me.
Now that i know about S/P/N behavior I would like to go back over everything, piece by piece, applying all the known spath behaviors. i won’t do it yet – it is too overwhelming. i do look at things as they come up for me. And i also want to look at the N traits a more closely to apply them to this situation and my last relationship, which was definitely with an N.
And now i also have the info about WHY they can grab us- at least the beginning of the info – from the BETRAYAL BOND.
so, lots of good pieces are coming together out of questioning. It takes time and resources of energy and support, but for sure I am in the stream of healing.
Libelle…
thanks .. it was a simple and quick awareness… and all my gut intincts went off…
And the awareness of how men treat women also is blasting through my mind…
in that, when I wore my emgagement ring that blinded.. I seemed to get a different kind of respect… when I wear another ring on my marriage finger I get a different reaction….
My engagement ring while part of it is fake.. is a flasher.. and people where I live while out and about look at this.. I guess that this is all over… occasionally I wear that ring just to see and feel the difference..
it is really like when another man realizes that there is a Mr. in a woman’s life he treats her differently…
and I was, of course, not wearing my ring yesterday..
Even after all these years, men are still give this sense of respect that a woman isn’t… and it pisses me off.. as I made most all the men in my life look good..
I bet had I been wearing that engagment ring.. that little bully wouldn’t have spoken to me in that manner..
And this exact attitude is what these cons have… they know that I woman would like, needs, is better off with a man around her.. in that, she feel more protested.. even if it is a false sense of protection as they try to destroy you from the inside out…
And weak, insecure men feel threatened by an attractive, successful woman that perhaps, they feel inferior to or realize that they can never have.. and they take the advantage to harrass her if it arises…
MAKES ME SICK!
dear style and onestep…i went thru the whole day without one freaking thought about him…wow!!! i actually had so much fun today again with my daughters and after they left a bit ago my girlfriends calling to see how i was doing…and i get it…i just have to go thru these emotions…but the most hard part is after i am alone for abit i get so damn lonley and crying…not enough to call him..yet anyway to be honest ..i pray i dont since i have all the girlfriends on rotation..but …i just am so sad at times about it all…
but …you will love this …it is almost like the pizza story…a male friend of mine that i worked with wanted to really talk to me and ive been very bz and allowing myself this time to really get all this out of my system and start over …but last nite he and were texting and all of a sudden because he apparently didnt think i was responding in his time frame he started to get nasty with me via text and i actually text and told him i didnt appreciate nor was it healty or appropriate for him to be texting/talking to me in that manner F him!!!
so ..maybe he had to to take the brunt of what just happened..i dont care…cuz all of a sudden he is apologizing etc..and i just dont ever need to talk to him either..cuz it is a RED FLAG for me …how dare he!!!
i will not be taken advantage of any longer…and im not sure my ex will call me and its getting to the point i dont have anything left to say…it just hurts…and it is lonley…and i at least can say that and move on.