By | September 5, 2008 59 Comments

Reflections on antisocial behavior (part 1): When women are sociopaths

This semester I am teaching a course on personality and psychopathology to graduate students in counseling. I am very excited about this course and am considering making it available online to everyone. I sat down with a colleague this week and explained the content of the course. During that conversation the topic of gender differences in personality came up. My colleague said something like, “Yeh, we expect men to compete, sometimes act aggressively and to spread their seed, women are biologically preprogrammed to stay put and to nurture.”

I countered by saying , “While that formulation has some truth, we often fail to appreciate that females also have aggressive tendencies rooted in their biology.” For every social mammal there are two opposing tendencies- affiliation/affection and competition/dominance. The manner in which males and females compete and establish dominance may be different, but the drive for dominance is present in females as well as males. Furthermore, the drive for dominance can lead to violence and aggression in females. For example, while female chimpanzees readily affiliate and form groups to go and forage for food, they have to be on guard with respect to one another. Infanticide is not all that uncommon, female chimps will kill their friend’s babies. Scientists say this is their way of reducing the competition for food.

I explain all this to wake you up to the fact that antisocial and aggressive tendencies are part of being female. Females of social species also have to compete for limited resources (food, territory and mates) and sometimes that competition gets nasty. My hope is that eventually the human brain systems involving this competition and aggression will become vestigial organs kind of like the appendix. However for humans today, the brain motivational system that makes us want to compete and dominate is quite functional. It is this brain system that leads to antisocial behavior- behavior that harms others and so disrupts our social order.

Studies of antisocial behavior in women indicate that it has a strong genetic component. Women whose lives are characterized by pervasive antisocial behavior are more likely than men to have offspring with the same pattern. That is true even when children are given up for adoption at birth.

Women have pervasive antisocial behavior when they harm and exploit nearly everyone in their lives. When this antisocial behavior is present in young girls, it carries with it a worse prognosis than it does for boys.

For Driven to Do Evil I put together the following chart regarding antisocial behavior:

Antisocial Behaviors
Manipulation Cheating
Lying Sexual coercion
Non-verbal intimidation Rape
Verbal intimidation/threats Thievery/robbery
Coercive control Assault
Social aggression Murder

If you consider these behaviors, none of the very antisocial behaviors on the left are illegal or violent. In fact most antisocial behaviors are not violent. Studies show that while there are gender differences in violent antisocial behavior there are not gender differences in non-violent antisocial behavior. A woman who is pervasively antisocial is less likely to be criminal but all of her relationships center around manipulating, lying and intimidating as a means of dominating others. Some female “caretaking behaviors” can also fall under the category of coercive control.

Sexual coercion and rape are less commonly perpetrated by women. However, we should all appreciate the fact that for the victims of these assaults the behaviors are all too common.

This week someone wrote in asking about borderline personality disorder in women and its relationship to sociopathy/psychopathy. My answer is to look at the list of antisocial behaviors above. To the extent that a woman diagnosed with borderline personality has pervasive antisocial behavior as manifested by behaviors on that list, she is also a sociopath/psychopath.

This week I also had the honor of speaking with a man who calls himself BloggerT7165. He is probably the nation’s leading expert on antisocial behavior in women. He developed this expertise through personal, educational and occupational experience. I highly recommend his blog: What about when mom is the abuser?

BloggerT7165 has posted his personal story on his blog. He says, “What about when MOM is the abuser and is a psychopath and malignant narcissist? I ask those questions because that is exactly what my childhood consisted of. I will give a brief background so you can understand where I am coming from and my own biases and experiences.” I’ll let you read the rest of his story yourself. He also discusses cases of female rapists and child molesters.

I told Mr. BloggerT7165 that he is a treasure to me. I hope all you ladies will take note of this. In spite of all his horrific experiences with women my new friend does not believe that “all women are jerks.” He has also had the inner strength to overcome his own genetics/temperament, make good choices and to be very productive. He is a valued worker, cherished husband and devoted father.

BloggerT7165 is a victor not a victim.

I receive many letters from people (primarily women) who are stuck. I try as best I can to motivate them to get unstuck. These victims have a whole host of excuses as to why they can’t function or work on their own recovery. Many women are also stuck in the belief that “all men are jerks.”

If you are stuck, please consider the example of the boy who was raised by an antisocial, psychopathic mother but who still knew in his heart that loving is the source of meaning in human life. He will tell you that overcoming being a victim in order to become a victor takes work. We make a choice to do that work or not.

Choose today to heal your own ability to love and pursue your own well-being. Don’t wait for that monetary settlement, child custody or some other act of the legal system. Start today. See a therapist if you need to. Set small daily goals and a few larger long term goals for yourself. A year from now the Earth will have gone around the sun one more time, and you will have either made progress or not”¦that is up to you!

What about when mom is the abuser?

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.”These victims have a whole host of excuses as to why they can’t function or work on their own recovery. ”

Their reasons are not excuses. Trauma is real, and everyone processes it differently. Those in the helping profession often tireof helping, get frustrated with those “stuck” well imagine how tired the stuck are?

Yes, we must move on, but we aren’t moving on due to imaginary excuses. The issues are real, huge and exhausting an primarily focus upon abandonment. Sucking it up- doesn’t work. And maybe you do yoga, eat right, pray and still, like Jobe there you are.

Suffering, loneliness are not sins. They actaully can be redemptive, akin to how precious metals are purified.


Thank you for the kind words Dr. Leedom.

Holywatersalt what you say is correct for some. What Dr. Leedom has said is also correct for some. There are people out there who don’t just get stuck, they want to stay right where they are. It is a sad reality but it is a fact.

It is also a fact that the issues are real, huge and exhausting and often painful. Because of this some clients do come come up with various explanations as to why they do not want to go through all of that to work on their issues. For some they think the the pain they know is better than taking the risk of the unknown pain of working on their issues. Often they are also angry themselves and feel bad for feeling that way. They should be angry but they should not turn the anger into bitterness or on themselves which is something that happens all to often.


Although trauma is real, of course, and IMHO the first few months afterwards it is helpful to talk about it alot, but when it continues to dominates practically your every conversation with friends or is constantly in your thoughts later on, IMO, sometimes it is more of a habit (something to talk about with friends and complain about) because you haven’t been finding other interesting things to do in life that you can talk about. That is not to say you won’t sometimes have triggers, but what worked for me anyway, was learning how to manage those triggers and intrusive thoughts.

I’ve mentioned Dr. Carver’s articles on counselling resources website before, but he also has one on emotional memory and how that functions, and how to manage intrusive thoughts. Once I read that and not just read it, but DID what he said, I no longer sat around letting thoughts about what all happened with my P run (or ruin) my day.

Sometimes it, too, seems to boil down to the choices made after being victimized, like whether you start work on constructive solutions to problems, or destructive crutches to cope such as drinking too much booze or start dating again too soon without working on your own issues first, which just magnifies your problems. Something I found helpful was forcing myself to take up new hobbies and interests, which ended up being a good thing because now I really DO have something else to talk about instead of the same ol’ wash and repeat stories about my P (which I’m sure friends are sick of hearing anyhow).

I like to journal about the relationship (to try to spot red flags I missed and figure out why I reacted like I did to some stuff), but I try to set aside a specific amount of time to do that and only think about it then. And I like to occasionally read and participate in this website and one other on on msn.

I made a decision that I am not going to date for at least a year after my relationship with the P ended. For me (and I am in my 50’s) this is the first time in my life I have not felt like I needed to have a man in my life. First, I wanted to work on me and figure out why I didn’t get the hell out of that relationship when all those redflags started popping up all over the place. And I wanted to take the time to get to really see what I am all about, what I really like and dislike etc.

I have found all sorts of interesting things to do–hobbie wise–and find things I really like to do that I had no idea I liked! Second, after a P, for me it seemed foolish for me to attempt to date right now, for several reasons. But one of them, I think I need to give myself time to heal and not put myself out there still in a vulnerable position which might very well attract another socio. Second, even if I met the most wonderful man on earth, who was normal, am I emotionally healed enough to recognize that, and is it fair to the man to have to cope with ME during my healing process. By that I mean, yeah we need to learn the signs of a socio, but I don’t want to still be so emotionally raw that some guy might do just a normal guy thing (that I dont like) and I’m in the mentality of seeing a socio behind every bush and get caught up in that mode of thinking either.

I don’t think you ever really forget or “get over” the trauma, but in spite of it not being easy,I do feel you can move on and have a productive good life in spite of what happened. Just call me stubborn, but my P told me he “won” and how my life was gonna be crap and I was too stupid to do better, and I’d never be able to do this or that blah blah (puke). If I just sit around and moan about all I left behind, lost financially, and how I will never be able to have a good life again and get over it, well, I probably won’t. And to me, if I don’t work hard on repairing my life and making it a good life, then HE HAS WON and still has control over me. And I’ll be damned if that is gonna happen. I’M winning this one!


I think everyone should “try” to look at life differently. Defending being stuck “comfortability of it, even though it is painful and not good for you” is not what is being offered. What is being offered is to trust a compassionate therapist to work with you to see the beauty of life again, not what some manipulator in your life conditioned you how to view their world and/or not to continue relying on your own negative thinking.

Did you ever hear the saying “life is easy, people make it difficult”? Meaning, it’s how you view life that makes up your life. You can view it through negative thinking or you can view it through positive thinking. Life can be miserable or beautiful, depending how YOU want to view itl. Your choice. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.



Whoever came up with this notion that women are not aggressive… it must’ve been men!

MANY women are aggressive, and see other women as nothing but competition for men. There’s way too many women like that, in my opinion. Of course many men don’t see it, because they’re not the ones in competition – they’re the prizes (whether it be for financial dependency, companionship, social status, or emotional needs). So they don’t see it. Because they’re not usually the ones in the line of fire when one of these women has her aim on a target & thinks someone’s in the way. It’s usually other women they see as obstacles to getting what they want.
I’ve seen this happen since I was a kid.
And of women like that… there were always a few that really stood out as really having something really wrong with them.
I remember the one from gradeschool – whoah she was a piece of work. And then another girl in high school. And most people recognized that there was something unusually aggressive & competitive about these girls. Something weird. Most people would steer clear, but they’d always have their core followers.
But again, of course not as many MALES noticed it. Even in gradeschool, that girl had some boys wrapped around her finger – with pure unveiled dominance. I remember on the igloo shaped monkey bars, she got underneath one of the boys she was “friends” with, and grabbed his legs & pulled until he screamed bloody murder because the bar was cramming up into his testacles. She did this kind of violent abuse to him regularly. Yet he always hung around with her anyway. It was dumbfounding to some of us, at least. Even in kindergarten, this girl was manipulative, cheated, lied, used all types of intimidation direct & indirect, verbal & physical, threats, was controlling, assaulted classmates (though only boys – the girls she manipulated emotionally) – and she was suspected of stealing on a couple of occasions. And when she was put in a situation where she didn’t have control, and wasn’t able to do what she did normally (in a situation outside of school) – she went hysterical crying for her parents.
I can’t even imagine what this girl is like now, 30 years later.

I disagree that sociopaths & borderlines are the same though. Though many of the behaviours might be similar… There’s a big difference. Borderlines are often motivated by shame and guilt. Which is at least partly why I think they’re easy pickins for sociopaths. Sociopaths have no such feelings. They are without conscience.

Having said that, abuse is abuse, no matter who does it – it’s wrong. And if someone is being a manipulative caretaker, it doesn’t mean you should put up with it, just because they’re not a psychopath. Just because someone has a conscience, doesn’t mean you have to put up with their bull!

As for “these victims” – IE: the ones that think ALL MEN ARE JERKS – or all women are… well, I think the women are as bad as the men who think they’re “nice guys” and think all women are b’s, or like they’re men to be a-holes… Well, look up “Heartless B*tches” web site, and their articles on “nice guys”. The thing is – I have ALWAYS thought there are an equal number of so-called “nice women” who are like that too. They’re NOT so nice, not really. They’re stuck because they want control & aren’t getting what they want, not because they’re traumatized.


Here’s the cartoon that sums up the problem with so-called “nice guys” (and certainly applies to so-called “nice girls”).

Check it out – how NICE is that guy REALLY?

No, he’s just someone not getting what he wants! He doesn’t care about the feelings of the girl he’s whining to.

And women can be like that too. Self-centered emotional users.


I read the When Mom is the Abuser and I have to say it was mind blowing. My mouth dropped open when I read about the woman and the 8 year old boy. Blogger T7165, I also read your story, and I just wanted to say I admire your courage, attitude, and spirit. I’ll be visiting your blog again.

Ox Drover

Dear BloggerT,

I am a retired Registered Nurse Practitioner with both family medical practice and mental health background, and indeed, I have seen so many patients and clients that were “stuck.”

At the time, I was frustrated with these patients and their lack of willingness or ability to “unstick” themselves. I think your comment about the “known” pain vs the “unknown” pain is also right on. I’ve also seen women who would return again and again to horribly abusive men, or choose another one just like the first one–over and over. In fact, I felt that I was “superior” to these women who were abused by the men they were married to or living with, and yet, I wasn’t at all “superior,” as my P-son was continuing to abuse me and I was “falling for” it just as these women were with their abusers—I was STUCK, but didn’t see the “log in my own eye” though I could clearly (I thought) see the “splinter” in theirs.

Having let the scales fall from my eyes, I have started to “unstick” myself and make the changes in myself that are necessary for me to go from victim to victor, but I IS A DIFFICULT PROCESS. A painful process, and one that requires a great deal of work, self examination, spiritual introspection and even pain.

I have more empathy now for these people who are “stuck” in abusive relationships and and stuck in pain, fear and denial.
I no longer feel superior to them in any way, realizing that I too was stuck ***STUCK** in denial and pain for years and years. Having said that though, I realized that the ONLY way to be “saved” was to SAVE MY?SELF. No one else could do it for me, no one else could rescue me. It’s been a long struggle through the mire and the muck, the pain and the self doubt, but I’m on the way—for the first time in my life, living FREE OF PSYCHOPATHS AND ENABLERS.

Your blog site BloggerT is quite nice, thank you for sharing it with us.


Thank you for this article it is very informing. I also went to the blog web site. God it makes me sick so I will have to research over time…

I too had parents that were emotionally unavailable to me. A father who was (now deceased) a alcoholic but a father that loved his children. Who when under the influence was also physically abusive. A mother who was absent from her children life and suffered, I believe from a personality disorder (also deceased).

But being a ward of the state. I didn’t spend my entire childhood with both parents and soon learned from others who show me that one has chooses and can live a happy emotional stable life if only one learns about these chooses and heal from past mistakes. I took to heart what was offer to me by both therapy and spiritual guidance and learned to become that which I am today. I thank God each day that he gave me this chance to change things in my life. My only regret is that most if not all of my siblings who had the same chance didn’t take that which was offered. With that stated we all have two paths to travel. One to stay a victim the other to become a survivor. Which will you choose dear readers?



“I’ve mentioned Dr. Carver’s articles on counselling resources website before, but he also has one on emotional memory and how that functions, and how to manage intrusive thoughts. Once I read that and not just read it, but DID what he said, I no longer sat around letting thoughts about what all happened with my P run (or ruin) my day.”

I read that too and yes it worked for me as well!


Dear BloggerT

I visit your blog site but some of the stories were, well let’s just say a bit disturbing…

Well I will read the rest and thanks you…


BloggerT.. sad stories indeed.. but I wonder in this world where natural feelings and common sense seem to have fallen by the wayside, can there be any other prognosis for us than for this horrible stuff to increase?

I know there has been a general consensus in the free world not to legislate morality, but in many of these stories I see anger triggered by the pain of abuse and betrayal.

I don’t want to trigger a flood of comments from my fellow bloggers.. but when someone takes you for a ride, uses the best years of your life and leaves you with a bunch of kids to raise and no money or free time to do it with, just what are you supposed to do with all the rage and pain?

It’s no excuse for innocent children being made to suffer, but it’s naive to think all this pain in a mother is never going to affect her kids. The emotional stability of a mom, dad, or other caretaker is going to have significant effects on the kids that love and depend on them.

Ox Drover

DEar James,

I had a therapist once who analogized parenting to a smorgasboard of foods—every parent puts out a smorgasboard for their children. The child then has the choice of WHICH foods to focus on.

Some parents put out a smorgasboard with MANY GOOD THINGS and only a few “not so good” things, and other parents put out piles of CAT CRAP but only a few things that are good. The child then chooses which of the things to pick up.

Even the worst of parents do some good things, and even the best of parents put out a few plates of cat crap.

I have seen a family that keeps coming back to my mind. The mother reminded me of a sow that eats her young. This woman was probably the single most DISGUSTING psychopath that I have ever known, yet two of her children out of 4 physically healthy ones became two of the best, kindest and most loving people I could imagine, and two became just like their mother. One, being mindly retarded and totally under the control of her mother I don’t “count” in this as that girl literally didn’t have “free will”—yet she too was a sweet person, just horribly abused, but in no way “mean” like her other.

That particular parental smorgasboard was 99% plates of cat crap, but the ones that chose only to seek out the “good” things on that board and to become good people, unlike their mother amaze me!

Though my mother was abusive in some areas, and especially with her enabling of the family bad boys, but I did have good things on that smorgas board, I didn’t HAVE to choose the “plates” of her enabling. I could have left them there untouched. But, since I did “learn to cook those dishes” now I am seeing that I DON’T LIKE THE TASTE, and I have changed my own “menu”—-unfortunately, one of my kids picked up that same “plate”—but he too is now learning to “cook other dishes” and we are moving on with our lives. Free of these “unhealthy” meals. No longer accepting them as “just life” or “the way things are”—but broadening our choices to include “healthy meals” and the “water of life” in our diets.

Kat, I have “been in your shoes” with raising children alone, going to college, and at the same time trying to put food on the table and keep a household together. I hear you, sister, it isn’t easy, that’s for sure. Trying to give your kids what they need when you are “needy” yourself is difficult and I know that even though I did the best I could do there were times I did NOT meet their needs because I wasn’t able.

Fortunately, by the time that my P-son became the worst, I had remarried and had some support from my husband. With one of my sons a “challenge to raise” (ADHD) and very upset and hurt about the “desertion” of his beloved biological father. (My ADHD son cried day and night for two years, great wracking heart breaking sobs, and was so upset that he literally stopped growing physically–it is called “failure to thrive” and the growth stopping is caused by excessive stress. In infants it can lead to death). When your kids each need different things and you can’t do both of them, which kid do you give your energy too?

Sometimes I felt like I was in a river, drowing, and couldn’t save both my kids at the same time, much less save myself.

AT one point I had $1.87 left to my name and I went to a guy’s birthday party with my male friend, and “invested it” in a penny ante poker game BECAUSE I NEEDED THE MONEY, and I won about $20 for groceries the next week. Kat, sweetie, I DO know how it is to live hand-to-mouth, and to tell your kids “I can’t afford it honey.” I used every money-saving tip in the world.

One year when they were big enough that they could understand, their christmas boxes contained only photos of what they wanted, and we went shopping the day AFTER christmas at the sales so I could afford the things they wanted, which I couldn’t have if we had gotten them before Christmas.

But you know what, my son C told me the other day that he knew and appreciated that I had done the best I could and that his childhood was pretty nifty, that I TAUGHT them things, and that we did things together, like camping, that I had provided them with good mentors since they didn’t have a father figure in their life other wise, that they had a full and good life as children and that those years were good memories to him. So, I must have done something right. Heck, even my P son spoke well of those years of poverty and hard work. So hang in there Kat, stay in school, and just do the best you can for you and your kids.

During those years I dated, but NEVER really got involved with a guy and did not live with any guy, or let him live with me. The focus was on my children and me and my education. I didn’t have the energy left over to have a real “relationship” with any guy. I’m not sure why I did it that way, but I did and it turned out to be the right thing, because when times got better after graduation, I married my late husband and he was sure a “good pick”—I look back at the guys I dated then and none of them would have been a “suitable” match for me in any way. Waiting paid off BIG TIME in the end.



I understand what you are trying to say. But still we all have chooses no matter what type of family background you came from. Rich or poor. Educated or not. These are handicaps but not walls to stop us.

Case in point:

I know a friend of my whom I should call A. A is involved with the same program that I am. One, which helps those that came from dysfunctional relationships such as but not, limited too. Abusive (physical) relationships. Emotionally abusive ones. Partner who suffers from chemically depended additions. Sexual abusive relationships both with partner and/or children. It is a great program. I am with their help getting my life and the life of my children back on track because of their intervention. I am now working and getting back that was once lost due again to this program. A isn’t. Why isn’t she?

A little background on A to begin with. She is “still” married to a husband who suffers from a chemically depended addition. What kind? Well I don’t believe that matters. She had 5 children with (we will call husband J) her husband who would leave the home for days. Not support her or her children with food money in short basic needs. J cheated on her (something she still denials today) many times. Refuses to stop using drugs for the good of their relationship children or even him. She has filed for divorce many times but never does she follow up on this threat. Yes reader a threat because I don’t believe she will ever divorces this loser. As I stated my life in back in order and for this I Thank God each day! But for A? Today she lives in an apartment with no electricity and just recently called me to help her out with food for her children. She had a job but due (this is of course according to her) to her children being sick lost her job and is now in jeopardy of losing her funding. But still J comes to see his children and pays I guess what he can. Let me tell you a little about J. He works outside the system (tax system) as a Mechanic working on people cars by driving to them and then gets cash money for his work. Lost his license and then started using his brother’s identity when stop by the police. Comes to visit the “children” and her but tires to stay there knowing that if the program personnel would find out that would end her housing subsidies. J knows that both A and children live this way but does nothing to help her children? Yet she tells me over and over again how much J makes as a Mechanic but still is today living without any electricity in her apartment! Each times A calls me it is for something. Money food and/or use my phone (oh forgot to tell you her phone was disconnected too) and computer. Each time she calls me she wants something!

Well I am done with her or anyone that refuses to help themselves or children because she I believe is only thinking about herself. Not her children and believe it or not, not even J. Because maybe if she would divorce his sorry ass. Maybe then he would get help. But really I wouldn’t even count on that!

Chooses people! It always comes down to our own personal chooses….

Blogger is right. Insomuch some people just don’t want to change. But then why in my Lords name do they expect us to help them when we know they are a lost cause and refuse to help themselves?


Thank you all for your responses. I want to say something really quick to make sure I am not coming across wrong or being taken the wrong way.

It’s not so much that some, I stress some, people don’t want to change, its that they, for various reasons, are not willing or able to do what is needed to change. Are there a few people out there who resist change for the sake of resisting it? Sure. With 350 million people in this country you can find almost anything possible. Psychopathic individuals are one example of people who do not want to change period.

And please understand I am not talking about people that are in an abusive relationship but rather one’s that have broken free and are out of them.

I once had a mentor tell me something that has stuck with me to this day. He said that we are all human and part of the the human condition is pain. We will all experience pain in our lives (to varying degrees) and that is beyond our control. How much we suffer from that pain in something that is in our control totally.

Dorothy Day opened homes of hospitality- she accepted people wherever they were and loved them whether they changed or not. She’s in the process of being canonized.

It says something about ourselves when we CANNOT detach from controlling others lives and be there for them in their distress without complaining, judging.

Step away if you think you are being used, but often our frustration with others is OUR problem.. For example, when we tell someone to stop crying—that’s not for them, that’s because we are uncomfortable.

By refusing to help, we help no one- “they don’t learn a lesson” but they will suffer and most likely the children will too. Sometimes we must give and let go and God.



“I stress some, people don’t want to change, its that they, for various reasons, are not willing or able to do what is needed to change. Are there a few people out there who resist change for the sake of resisting it?”

This I too understand but still it leave me wondering why?? When I see those that can and should be helped and then don’t benefit from the many supporting and loving arms around them, why? From some people all I get from them is word salad lip service. Agreeing with me that there is a problem, but then do nothing to help themselves, Why? I just want to know why? I can’t walk away from A. I know next times she called me for something because she has children I will help her albeit money food. Still I care for these people and feel they should care for themselves and thier children. It just break my heart when I see something like this. What am I missing? What can’t I understand? Why?


I think you can be there for someone in a supportive role encouraging them to seek solutions to their problems. But I also think you have to get a handle on what is being supportive and then what is being enabling behavior that may actually result in them remaining stuck.


A self-help program I used to be involved with, called Overcomers Anonymous, had a list of various levels of denial in the front of their handbook. They went something like this:

1. Complete denial: “I don’t have a problem”
2. Denial of severity: “I know I have a problem but it’s not that bad”
3. Denial of accountability: “My problem is not my fault”
4. Denial of necessity for change: “I know it’s a problem and it’s my own fault but there’s nothing I can do about it”
5. Denial of responsibility for change: “I know I have a problem and I have to do something about it.. can you fix it for me?”
6. Beginnings of accountability: “I know this is a big problem and I have to do something about it.. I am not sure how to do this, though.
7. Full accountability: “It’s a problem, it’s my problem, and it’s my responsibility to learn all I can and to work to change it, no matter what anyone else does or doesn’t do.

Ox Drover

Kat, that is absolutely great! I will incorporate that into my daily reading!!!! Thanks for sharing.

James, I had a therapist once tell me that the ONLY LEGITIMATE RESCUE is to drag an unconscious person from a burning building.

ANY time we do for someone what they ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING FOR THEMSELVES (meeting their own or their children’s obligations for life) we are ENABLING them.

I too found it difficult to “let the children suffer” because the mother was NOT BEING RESPONSIBLE, and quite frankly that is what she is doing. She is NOT BEING RESPONSIBLE to see that her own children have food, etc.

WHY? Because she is not willing to put forth the effort to save her children from what she knows is a horrible situation.

Will she improve if you don’t “enable” her? Probably not. She will either find someone else to enable her or she will let herself and the children suffer.


In research done at Ft. Roots Hospital, an old VA facility in Little Rock AR there was some research done by one guy over years and years and the results were known in the 1980s. Can[‘t remember much more about that, but he took a single litter of puppies, bird dogs as I remember, and bred TWO GROUPS, the most aggressive to the most aggressive and the most shy to the most shy and timid. After 20 years and 20 generations, he had two totally different groups, one group would BITE YOU FOR THE FUN OF IT, very aggressive, and the other group would lie down and whine and belly crawl in submission if you even made eye contact with them.

Just as the psychopath is geneticly programmed for aggression, I think there are also people who are genetically programmed for submission.

In studies of wolf packs where the “pecking order” is well established though they have a fairly well organized “family system” to assure that each year’s pups have the best chance for survival, there is occasionally a “Zeta” wolf in a pack, the exact opposite of an Alpha Wolf. This dog is persecuted by every member of the pack, starved, treated horribly, and yet it crawls and fawns and begs for mercy and NO MERCY is extended to this dog by any member of the pack. Eventually this dog either starves or is killed by one of the other members of the pack. Yet around the Zeta the rest of the pack behaves “normally” toward one another, and even if there is a surplus of food, the pack will keep this Zeta wolf from eating, “just for the heck of it.”

If you were to secretly slip food to this animal it would not change its fate, or behavior, because this dog is somehow geneticly or environmentally programmed (or both) to be the “scape goat” and to endure torture for it’s entire life.

The wolf COULD LEAVE THE PACK, and very likely join another pack, if the wolf is female (the videos of the one I saw was a female) it could leave and entice another male from another pack and form it’s own pack—but it never does. It stays in the abusive situation until death of starvation or murder gives it rest.

I see so many similarities between this Zeta-wolf and some humans, mostly women, but it can be males. It is almost like a wolf version of Stockholm syndrome. Of course ANYone no matter how strong can be overcome with Stockholm Syndrome, but I think there are those that are almost programmed by life and genetics to become that “Zeta.”

They hang on to the malignat hope that by doing NOTHING they can appease the “gods” that they depend on.

It is extremely difficult for me to watch a child live in such a home, to grow up with that kind of neglectful parent and not feel compassion and want to feed them. (which is enabling the parent to foist the responsibility for her children off on you) but, the other side of the coin is, how do you neglect a hungry child? No matter WHY the child is hungry.

In this woman’s case, I think what I would tell her is that, “no, A, I won’t give you money for your children, but I will drive them to a soup kitchen, and then we will go to the authorties and tell them that you are unable to care for your children and see what they can do to help you provide a descent home for your children.

I’m not a great fan of children being taken from their parents and given to the state, but sometimes it is better than letting the parent starve them and abuse them by neglect and example.

There has been a group home near me, operated by a church for almost a 100 years. I have helped by both donating to this home, and by tutoring children and being foster parent to some of the children (taking them into my home for various periods of time from a few days to a few months) and I can vouch for the fact that this home provides a sanctuary for many children and has through the years, even sending those that are capable and want to go to college to college, and doesn’t “kick them out” the day they turn 18 unless they are ready and/or want to go. Every year they have “home comings” where hundreds of former residents come back for reunions. Back in the 1950s and 60s it was not unusual for them to get a child as an infant and keep that child until after college.

It was heart breaking that children that were adoptable at that time were still held on-to “legally” by the parent refusing to relinquish the child for adoption. My parents even tried to adopt two brothers ages 8 and 10 that they fostered and were refused by their mother, but the boys stayed there the rest of their young lives. One became a wonderful young man who has nothing but fond memories of the home and of the times they spent with me when I was a kid, and in fact, we still stay in contact. The other brother is in prison. He goes back for the group home homecoming every year.

I had a patient once whose husband was a bed-bound psychopath that had abused her forever, and she was like the “zeta” wolf, even after he had gotten to the point that the only thing he could do to hurt her was verbally rage unless she got within the distance he could throw a metal bedpan (and he was pretty good at aiming it and flinging it) But even with my gentle encouragement for her to set boundaries, she never would even set the tiniest boundary. He was like a two-headed dog that she threw meat to just to keep him from devouring her whole. Nothing she did pleased him, and his greatest joy was in hurting her. It seemed the more she cowered, the more he enjoyed debasing her.

I realize that I am a “survivor” and in general, I will do whatever it takes to “overcome”—yet, I too, put up with my son abusing me, I also felt so powerless and needy that I allowed a P into my life as a potential mate, I let my mother’s toxic enabling continue for years and threw meat to her just like a two-headed dog that would have emotionally devowered me, just like a Zeta wolf. In other aspects of my life though, I never doubted I could over come.

I was left homeless and destitute by a bitter divorce, due to my mentally ill husband and my P- x FIL, with two kids and nothing else–but I survived! I finished my education and went to work. I never doubted that I would. I depended on myself, and I am proud of how I depended on myself, not on trying to find someone to enable me. I founded a small group of other single parents who were also students, we set up a co-op company of house cleaning and worked together, pooling our resources, skills and time to survive financially and we all did! We are friends to this day, though we are scattered all over the country now. We baby sat for each other, we bartered for services that we all needed from car mechanics to medical care and housing and piano lessons for our kids. We were a FAMILY. We still are, though everyone has gone their separate ways like siblings scattering out as they reach majority.

Some of our kids turned out well, and others didn’t. Some remarried and some didn’t. One of the guys who was in our group didn’t have any children, but he does now and at age 64 is raising his 13 year old and his 18 yr old after a late marriage and children with a P. He lives near me so we are still very close friends and see each other often (as friends only), but he is like a “brother” to me.

I KNOW it CAN BE DONE, pulling yourself up from absolute poverty, getting an education, if you are willing to invest in CHANGE rather than assuming the position of the Zeta wolf. It’s hard work, and scary to be RESPONSIBLE for yourself, to admit that YOU are responsible for whatever situation you find yourself in, if nothing else, by ALLOWING someone to abuse you. None of us had “helpful family”–though I guess my mom came the closest, but even she didn’t support me financially in any way, and the closest thing my parents did to “help” me was loan me some money when I had to put the P son into private school at age 11. I paid it back with more than normal interest, by signing over about $10K equity in a rental property which was my only asset for a $3500 “loan.”

What amazes me though, is why in that time and place I was an ALPHA wolf, and in others I have been the ZETA wolf. If I ask myself “why”—the only answer I can give is that it was for some reason SO very important to me to try to “please” my mother and “rescue” my P-son, that it NEVER DAWNED ON ME I HAD ANY OTHER CHOICE. Now, I KNOW. There is ALWAYS a choice, there is always a “way out” it is just that in order to make that choice, and take that way out, you have to acknowledge that there are some people that you must CUT OUT OF YOUR LIFE and I couldn’t even imagine doing that. Now I know that it is the ONLY way out, and at first it is painful, but as you heal, the PAIN GOES AWAY. Once you realize your life does not end without the P in your life, that the pain DOES go away eventually, it gives you more courage to continue to heal, to grow, to blossom. To learn to take responsibility for yourself and to grasp FULL ACCOUNTABILITY which also equals FULL FREEDOM.

Someone once told me that the most “secure” person in the world is the convict on death row who knows exactly what will happen to him every minute of the day and when he will die and how. You say “How is THAT “security”? Well, he doesn’t have to wonder, or worry or provide anything for himself and he KNOWS his future.

Freedom means “insecurity” because we never know what will happen to us from day to day. We have to be accountable for ourselves, to take responsibility. The death row inmate is not able to change his environment at all, or his fate. We CAN change our fate, but we have to WORK at it. That’s insecurity—if I do X, what will the result be? If I do Y, instead, what will the result be? We have choices to make and we get the consequences. But having freedom surely has its rewards, and I will opt for the freedom to make my own choices and influence my own fate—the joys and the sadness as well. That’s LIFE, A FREE LIFE—depending only on myself and my God.



Thank you for your support. Still to see one just throwing away thier life is never a pretty sight! You are right and I am a “fixer” and must stop this behavior (not as easier done then said) and stop being a enabler and more of a friend to A! How? Just tell her to truth which I have done over and over again.. Again of course she agrees with me but then that is were it starts and ends 🙁



I read your story! Thank you so much for sharing this with us!!!


I think you have to make the distinction between those that can change but don’t want to and those who are unable to.
My Mother for example was pity personified. She would pour out all her problems to anyone that listened, draw them into her pity play and then refuse to take any advice offered. Not only that she would then turn on them for being nice to her, sometimes attacking them for ‘interfering’.
My sister on the other hand has also been in some kind of crisis many times during her life and to a great extent because of her own failings. Her reaction is totally different – she acknowledges her shortcomings and even if she cannot find the strength to overcome the problem, she doesn’t expect others to put it right. She also feels guilty at being ‘weak’ and questions her own behaviour. Both of them could be viewed as people who can’t help themselves but the huge difference between the two is that my mother had a personality disorder and my sister was the victim of one.
I have been quite judgmental in the past and fallen into the trap of critiscising someone who cannot help themselves but now I think that we have to know a great deal about a person before we make judgments.
In my view a normal person will eventually start to look inside of themselves to overcome problems and a disordered person will always be a professional ‘victim’. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to help themselves. The rest of us can only step in if and when they want to change.


Let me try to provide an example that anyone can try to help understand how even a simple mundane change can be difficult to not just make but maintain.

Most people can tie their shoes without even looking at them. They have done this behavior so many times that it is second nature to them and the pathways in the brain are well established.

Now when you go to tie your shoes from now on I want you to do it the opposite of how you do it now. So if you cross right over left you will now cross left over right, etc. Exactly opposite on each step.

Notice how difficult it is at first and how long it takes you to get it right. Then notice how long it takes you to be able to do it every day (and how often you slip back into doing it the old way without even thinking about it, or because its “easier” etc) and then notice how long it takes until you do it without even thinking about it.

Consider this. Think about how difficult this is and this is AFTER you have already made the decision to actually make a change so it skips everything associated with that aspect. It is a minor change with no trauma attached, no abuse, no pressure if you fail, etc. Many people can not even go all the way through this tiny exercise.

This exercise can help to provide a real life experience of change and how many things are involved in trying to change even some minor aspect of one’s day to day life.

This discussion of enabling is interesting to me.
I have a different take on it- I accept people where they are and act as I choose toward them. I do not feel bad or get frustrated tehy do not do as I say or thing or even what commonsense would demand- I let them be. I offer what I feel is expected of me as a practicing Catholic, and try and always consider the innocent victims of whatever mess I encounter.

My mother is cold, selfish, self-absorbed, manipulative and an extreme hoarder. I don’t like any of those behaviors and have found my encounters with her only lead to screaming matches or silence. For five-years or so I have refused to fight with her, no point, I do not visit- who wants to visit a hoard? I have polite, civil interactiosn she feels slighted by , but that’s not my fault.

I have not abandoned her, I have severly limited her influence and interactions in my life. I do not miss her- a huge clue- there was no real relationship to begin with. But I try and respect her role as grandmother within limits and as my bio mom.

There is no way short of a miracle she will ever change- she is the way she is. I don’t think any amount of effort on her part is even possible- because she is not wired to really care about anyone other than herself and pride is at her core.

To break the silence I’d have to debase myself as I have time and time again- that’s not happening either. My father is copntent to live life in miniature- far below his abilities in a constant state of distraction in front of a TV. He chose this life long ago.

I love them in the most genuine ways- despite themselves. It’s interesting I have come to this place after much torment over their dysfunction- and I have done it in a way they hate and fight. They want attention, they want pretend, I can’t fake that anymore.

Even with psycho I gave without expectation- drove him insane when I didn’t get mad he’d ignored me, I only balked when he acting outwardly cruelly.

I am the oldest. My sister came along and terrorized me.
My mother was a horror also-non-stop screaming…I recall she was on lithium, bu I never knew her diagnosis. I found bottlein cabinet. I recall I was always looking for “why?”

My home was filled with anger, screaming and stuff everywhere. That’sabout what I recall. My sister and I fought all the time- my mother acted as if I was the fav, told me my sister was a mistake. But I never felt number 1….we were all on islands. But my sister was extremely physically abusive. And destroyed my property…I think she’s bi-polar.

I think victims of psycho come from broken homes, and psycho come from over-indulgent ones or even normal ones.


I believe this manipulation starts off as children. Older siblings manipulating younger siblings … going above and beyond what the caretakers asked them to do. Getting away with their abuse to the younger siblings as they smiled to the caretakers (mom and dad) giving them lip service that they would never do this or that to their younger siblings. Then mom and dad walk out of site … and it’s endless hell with these predators. What they learned and got away in the family unit … they took their arsenal with them to the next door neighbors … that worked they then took the refined their arsenal of abuse to the school system and the churches. They learned that if they smiled and acted the innocent part … they were never called on the carpet … just believed to be telling the truth to elders. Hence, this is the creation of the pompous asses of the world.

Because they were never questioned and thought to be telling the truth … it reinforced them to continue this behavior up to graduating school, going into the work force.

I’m the youngest in a family with 3 older siblings. They all, to some degree, think they have a right to play some form of manipulation games with me … getting their own way. They just don’t get it … No matter how many times I point this out … they tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about and walk away. Never correcting the problem. They believe it’s their birth right for being born before the younger siblings to project their authority over us. Clueless, absolutely clueless. To this day, ask a manipulative older sibling if they do this to their younger siblings … and they’ll look at you like you’re nuts. You won’t get a true answer.

So, you want to know how this starts … start looking at the dynamics of the family unit.

Peace everyone.


Oh, and may I add this thought. The jealousy to all of them is not having mom and dad dote on their every breath because other siblings were born into the family. They never got over this … and hence, the ego of the child took off aka the monster … insecure and miffed because they weren’t an ONLY CHILD (OC) any longer … had to share mom and dad’s attention with the rest of us born into the family. Now you know why most adults today walking around with some chip on their shoulders and have no clue to where it stems from.

Believe me … as the youngest child of a family of 6, 3 older siblings … I love you all … but you’ve all been a real pain in my b–t throughout my life … grow up, get over it, learn … grow … and stop with the attitudes already … it’s so old and boring.

Peace … and smile, it’s contagious.


holywatersalt: Yes, there is always the exceptions. My sister-in-law is the oldest of 2. She and her brother. Both are terrific people and she never bosses her brother around. Her parents are terrific people too. Always there for each other … true love. I think that’s it to. Why did your parents marry? Did they marry for love, or convenience of getting away from their folks. I know my father married for love … I’m still on the fence of my mom’s reasonings. I know she loved my dad … but, she did play her games to get her way … and she was the youngest sibling in her family. I know my mom treated me differently than the rest of the siblings … not special treatment … more on the fact of having heart to heart talks with her because I was a no nonsense kid … I didn’t play games … ever. I told it like I saw it and she respected me for that … plus, she had me at the age of 28 … I was her forth child. She always told me that I was a happy baby … which at the age of 28 … taking care of 4 children … that must have been a total pleasure that I wasn’t a fuss bucket for her … she had her hands full with the other 3 … all 2 years apart. Since I must have been an easy baby for her, she always appreciated it and treated me accordingly. I know she always was forced to stroke the other 3 … satisfying their constant craving for attention.

Funny, most people assume the youngest is the spoiled brat … so maybe you’re either born sensitive (humble) or you’re not. I have a friend from childhood who also is born into the one boy, one girl dynamics … she’s a basket case today (endured the same mistreatment as I did from co-workers and bosses, she left – was illegally fired … and didn’t go the entire process), nice person but doesn’t deal with reality … and her brother is a sweetheart. Neither one of them manipulated the other as children … on the surface, but I did notice my friend manipulating her parents and her brother secretly as she got older … aka acting like they owed her everything in life. They can’t quit put their finger on what her issue is. I, however, see right through her and tell her she’s selfish and to open her mind … get over herself. Oh, well, another so called childhood friend that doesn’t talk to me anymore. Most of the time I treat people with kidd gloves … then other times I’m so drained over all this nonsense … I have to just call it like I see it.

Anyway, it’s the dynamics in the family … whatever the birth order. I know my parents were doting parents to the 2 first borns … as my middle sister and I came along … they lightened up a bit and weren’t so over protective, as they were the older two. The older two resent us … my middle sister plays it for all its worth, I understand where they are coming from … but tell them … I had nothing to do with my parent’s relaxing over raising children … it’s natural.

I don’t know what else to say.


Fleeced Ewe

On Females: Just a few comments. 😉
One day, my teenage girls said, “Mom! have you noticed that most of the time, Hollywood and books portray mothers as BAD, BAD.” and I hadn’t thought about it up till then, but, since they said that, I’ve been taking note, and it is true. There seems to be way more of a focus on “bad mommas” than, “bad papas”. Maybe it is more entertaining?

On dealing: the BEST advice I got for my kids (dealing with their dad) came from their LPC. It is called, “The 4 C’s”:
YOU did NOT Cause it
YOU can NOT Cure it
You can NOT Control it
BUT…YOU can Cope Don’t let Coping turn Criminal

And in many cases, this means getting away from the perpetrator (bullies at school), living with a relative, or the other parent, (adults, divorce) etc…

On starting over with love…well, my life is half over, I’ve had 4 men (brother, dad, first & second husbands) all malignants. The second husband just had a whole different approach, so, I thought he WAS different.

It is impossible to believe that I was not cursed at birth to never be loved in a healthy way. I think I’ll just focus on my kids and hopefully, some day, grandchildren. 🙂


Dear Fleeced Ewe:

Not everyone is a user … but, there is a reason that WE have to deal with these obnoxious personalities … it’s all about our spiritual growth … more later on this issue.

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves”.

To understand the difference between us (givers) and them (takers) read this site:

Peace and harmony to you (and everyone on this site) as you heal from those that harmed your precious, precious, beautiful soul.


Fleeced.. I feel the same way.. but I still have a little bit of princess way back in my heart that wishes the prince could have come along at some point.

Fleeced Ewe

Wini: Bless your heart. Thank you for the thoughtful post 🙂 WOW. That site is fabulous!!! I will print it off and give it to my kids and friends.
Some local women and I are thinking about making up some brochures and business cards with websites like, the one you posted would be perfect, and others. Then, we’ll always have them with us when we meet people who need info about malignants.
I am astonished how many people I meet who have no clue what is going wrong in their relationships (or, what WENT wrong).

It is hard to give them much verbally-sometimes the time is so limited. But handing them a nicely done brochure or a business card would be great.

If anyone wants to do it-you can go to and get cards for free.

I have that “feeling”, or, vision also. But I think I’ll just use it to write a nice book-a love story. That way, I can live it MY WAY-the non-malignant way- and see it end in the best way 😉

Fleeced Ewe

I think I know why bad mamma’s are a Hollywood favorite: because most directors and producers are like Aaron Spelling!


Fleeced Ewe: I think that is why mental health workers can’t get through to them … because they are working with them as adults … when they should work with them as the children they are. I do believe they are 5-7 years of age. Still children though.

I remember in 2004, finding a business card of one of my bosses in my fiance’s attache case. I was looking for a highlighter and didn’t want to go downstairs for a new one. My fiance’s attache case was against the wall and I knew he carried pens etc. so I thought, maybe he had a highlighter in there too. I found the highlighter, but I found the business card too. Infuriated, I was yelling at him from the top of the stairs … As I walked the stairs, it was like he was a deer caught in the headlights to your vehicle. I said “what are you doing with JV’s business card”. He started making an excuse and I said “get out, get out of here”. He looked at me and said “I don’t have anywhere to go”. I stopped dead in my tracks … I saw a little child saying that to me. My heart broke into a zillion pieces. I regained my composure and said, we’ll discuss this at another time. You think about my question and give me the answer when you are ready. My mind saw that reaction and I was trying to smooth out the situation that I was not arguing with an adult … I was yelling at a child. I think I did pour myself a drink at that time (which I never do this, no matter what is going on … I’m a social drinker and have a few drinks/year … holidays, events, out to dinner). But that moment I did pour myself a drink and said to myself what just happened here. Of course, my EX went into adult mode and starting blaming me and that my imagination was getting carried away with me. But, I saw what I saw.

Without knowing it … because I was licking my wounds from what I endured with my bosses for the last 6 years … not paying attention to my bank statements or meticulous paperwork. My ex depleted thousands of dollars from my bank account over the next few months and left the state. Found someone off of friend finders … and the rest is history. It wasn’t until 2006 (2 years after he did this) that I went through my bank statements and saw what he had done. Of course, the first thing an adult thinks is “con artist, scammed, thief, liar, etc. etc. etc) … then you work through the horror and pain of them being in your space … give it up to God, ask God for help … and then you can see what they really are … children stealing to survive, children jumping from relationship to relationship to survive, children stealing your credit cards and your money because that’s all they know how to survive. I know this is the truth from my heart of hearts, down to my soul.



Fleeced Ewe: Watch the movie “Big” with Tom Hanks. There’s more to that movie than we think.



Dear Wini, an interesting post. I totally agree, they have their survival tactics, the ones they are most familiar with, stemming from a punctured sense of worth, somewhere in their lives. Yes, they are hurt children living in an adult body. When I likened my ex to some of the anti social children who live in my area, there is not alot of difference. They have an eye for an eye mentality, they take take, have very little consideration – if any – for others, they have their own ways of manipulation and devious behaviour. What you describe, I see that too, but that doesnt let them off the hook.


Hi Beverly, we’ve been missing each other for the last several months. No, I’m not saying they should be incarcerated, I’m saying our prison systems should be looking at them in another light … that as children, not the chronological age of who they see with their eyes in front of them. Prison should be for healing them as we keep them put, in one place. They are too clever to do this on their own (living in their egos … survival tactics), and of course, would never believe what we are saying, arguing all the way, they are the adults we see. They aren’t, but that’s as far as I’ve gotten.

Good chatting with you Beverly.



Wini, I havent been on here for a while, as my laptop has various viruses which I cant get rid of. I dont think they should be in prison, unless they have committed a crime, but they are in the twilight zone, creating chaos and hurt – in a sense that is to their detriment, because they are a sub culture who gets away with murder.

Ox Drover

Dear Wini,

Having somewhat studied the “purpose” of prison which has changed over the centuries from punishment to rehabilitation and back to punishment and then back to rehabilitation, with various modalities to accomplish this being tried. Some early prisons were solitude and work, where the prisoners were kept in single cells, an given a set amount of work to accomplish there, others were taken out on “chain gangs” and put to work, some were kept in solitary confinement and the purpose of this was to reform them by them reading the Bible, etc. and each and every modality failed to rehabilitate.

Some modalities actually drove the prisoners crazy (stretches of 10-20-30 years of solitary confinement.

Whipping, and other kinds of physical punishment were tried without any more success, etc.

Man has NEVER come up with a penal system that works to “help” the prisoner “reform.” Even the parole system and probation systems that we have now are a farce! The recidivism rate is overwhelming—why? Because a large part of the “criminal element” is psychopathic. Psychopaths cannot be reformed by prison, whipping, the Bible, or Tolle or anything else. They are NOT AFRAID of prison, and especially after the first term of imprisonment is over, THEY ARE NOT AFRAID TO GO BACK.

Harsh punishments do not deter the psychopath from committing crime. Hanging, drawing, and quartering or Crucifixion is not harsh enough to keep the psychopaths from committing crimes that they know this punishment is given for, because they are so arrogant they know they will “never get caught.” Just like my P-son is so arrogant that he thinks he will “get away with it” THIS time–of course he usually doesn’t but, NEXT TIME he will—HE THINKS.

Children do not have good impulse control, and don’t have a great deal of foresight, but these people are NOT CHILDREN internally or externally, though they do have some of the same characteristics as “children” (the lack of impulse control and lack of foresight) these people are ADULTS who have a choice to make, and should be held accountable for the choices they make. They are NOT stunted children who can be brought about to “love and enlightenment” by being force fed any philosophy or religion, or by being “taught to love.” They are people who have made choices that reinforce their arrogance and desires for control over others. They have learned and reinforced their own behavior, and do not fear the consequences if caught, they just move on with their lives.

Society as a whole must recognize that there is a part of the population that CANNOT BE REHABILITATED, and that that part of the population MUST BE SELECTED OUT OF SOCIETY, and those people kept incarcerated for life, or executed. About 70% of all violent crime is committed by the psychopathic criminals. If these people were incarcerated for life–say a “Three strikes you are out” law in every state—then we would at least have them off the streets and their future crimes would be PREVENTED. These three strikes prisoners should be incarcerated in my opinion, in separate prisons built only for them, to keep them away from other prisoners who MIGHT be rehabilitated..

But, unfortunately (LOL) I have not been elected dictator over the US, but when I am, the prison system in this country will be DIFFERENT, it may not be any better, and may not solve all the problems of crime in the US, but it will be DIFFERENT! LOL


Beverly, but they do commit crimes … due to their survival tactics. That’s why all the chaos in the world and no one can get through to them. It’s because we are talking with them on adult levels, when our conversations should be talking with them on the child level … where they spiritually are.

Read through the bloggs that have already been written. Look through the pain of the writers and read they have cars bought for them, they’ve stolen money, they’ve used credit cards without permission, they’ve taken items out of the spouse’s/lover’s homes, they’ve gotten mortgages put in their names … etc. Survival tactics … children surviving in an adult world … but they are not adults … they are spiritually stunted at children’s ages for whatever they had to endure.



Oxy: That is what I am saying. Stop looking at them as the chronological age they come into the system … and see them as the child they truly are. If law enforcement looked at them as children instead of harden adults criminals … think how adults would be able to communicate with them now.

I think the judge was right … that elderly judge calling all the men that were in his court room that day …”son”. He knew he was dealing with children, no matter what the chronological age the prisoner was.

I remember thinking “oh brother, they do the crime and now they get babysat” … that was my arrogance thinking this way … then working through the pain … getting your compassion back, seeing life with different eyes … they are children. That’s why it’s so crazy when they are about to leave … the stolen money, stolen cars, stolen items from your house, using your credit cards or stealing them too… they are children taking what they need to survive. Our horror, shock, pain comes from assuming we are dealing with adults … when we work through the pain … we can see them in the true light that they are … children, doing this chaos for survival purposes. You’re throwing them out, or telling them to get out … they (as children) say, oh, oh, now they’ve got to find another place to live. They sleep with us because they know most adults sleep with each other … that’s a means to an end too. So, they find the next partner to live with … move in with them … because they’ve been going through this scenario for years, they expect to get thrown out … they are kids stealing and doing all this … because they look at us … welll, you’re an adult, you can make more, you can buy more, you can get this or that.

It’s how you look at the scenarios.



Ox Drover

The difference is, Wini, is that children can GROW UP, these Ps are NEVER GOING TO GROW UP, they are never going to develop a conscience, or to develop impulse control, they are going to REMAIN “stunted” forever. Lock them up and throw away the key…keep them off the streets. Dealing with them as “children” or seeing them as “children,” to me, sets the tone of “they can’t help it, the poor little babies”—I see them as EVIL INCARNATE, Satan’s spawn, who CHOOSE not to change their behavior because they LIKE THEMSELVES AS THEY ARE.

I see as a “child” the person who is mentally retarded so much that he cannot make rational decisions to do right or wrong. THAT person deserves to be seen and treated as a child who is not responsible for his/her own actions, that person might have to be confined for their own or the protection of society from their behavior, but not in a PRISON situation. The psychopaths, however, CAN make decisions of right vs wrong, and they continually choose to do WRONG knowing it is WRONG.

A five year old who kills his playmate (even if on purpose) I would not send to prison for life. That child at that age, even if they “meant” to kill that playmate doesn’t even have a real concept that death is permanent. How can they be held accountable for their “murder” of their playmate?

But the adult who knows what death is, and knows that killing is “wrong” who purposely chooses to kill some one (my P-son for example) should never be turned loose on society again. He will kill again if he gets out. Not might, but WILL kill again. He has learned nothing from the punishment of prison, he is not reformed, and has no more impulse control than he did the day he went into prison. But he can quote the Bible and every major philosophy in the world verbatim.

My P-son is not a “stunted” child, he is a TWISTED ADULT, though some children (at some ages) lack impulse control, or ability to see that their behavior is harmful, my P-son KNOWS HIS BEHAVIOR is harmful, he just doesn’t CARE. That is the difference between them being “stunted children” and “twisted adults with some of the characteristics of young children, like lack of impulse control.

We may be “talking about the same thing” or have a
“dispute” in semantics, but to me there is a BIG difference between a “child in an adult’s body” and a “Twisted adult”—I would deal with them differently, and the MR person is the “child in an adult’s body” and should be treated as a young child, but a psychopath to me is a TWISTED ADULT, and should be treated as an ADULT who has CHOICES, but chooses to make the wrong ones.


Oxy, I’m not arguing with you. I know there are some people, no matter how you get through to them (if you can get through to them) … their anger is so deep, we haven’t a clue how to tape into it to get them to heal.

I do know for a fact … right from my ex-brother-in-laws mouth ( AA counselor … who could only be a counselor because he is a recovering alcoholic) … said to me when I asked … what is it that hooks people to alcohol or drugs? I smoke cigarettes, so I assume I know, but I never got hooked on drugs or alcohol. He told me, that their addiction is due to selfishness. Pure and simple. They spin everyone around and whine and complain and make up exuses … using everyone in this way … so they can get their fix, their selfish fix. That most alcoholics drop out when they start learning how selfish they are and that for them to heal … they’ve got to apologize to the people they’ve harmed in their life for the soul purpose of getting their drug of choice. He also informed me, that the person is stunted at the age they started drinking. I know this is true, I’ve got friends in their 50’s and 60’s … they started drinking around 10, they argue and do crazy things in their lives like a 10 year old.

So, if this is true for addictions, what is going on with the anti-socials of the world … their addiction being the chaos that they cause? Roller-coaster rides … all being done by spiritually stunted children.

I agree what you saying, there are people in prison who have done some horrific, horrific crimes in life to belong behind bars … keep them away from disrupting citizens of this country’s harmony … but even them, helping them in prison, not to get out … but to see if you can break through their harden shell … if you were treating them from a child perspective than assuming they are an adult.

How could they be mature adults with the crazy ideas going through their minds???? They are so immature … they are children.



Everybody keeps saying we don’t need anyone else to feel complete, and that’s very true. I’ve had many years of counseling and co-dependency treatment to get over that problem.

But that’s not what’s bothering me.. I don’t need or even want anybody to complete me anymore.. I’m finally comfortable in my own skin.

What I miss, need and want isn’t completion, it’s companionship. I’m a touchy-feely person, and I want someone to touch and feel. I want to make love, and feel wanted and loved. Not WORTHY of being loved, but just loved.. I want a mate. It’s natural to want this I think. My marriages were not fulfilling in this way, I was just a mom taking care of another child.

Ox Drover


From MY perspective, I DID need someone to “feel complete” after my husband died. I was sooooo lonely, and soooo not happy, and I felt like I had “won the lotto” when this guy started paying attention to me. I felt “old, fat, ugly, undesirable, etc etc no one will ever love me again, I’m gonna go eat worms.” LOL I really FELT that way deep deep DEEP down. I was actually ashamed of feeling that way, and of “being” that way. I mean my self esteem took a NOSE DIVE.

Of course the P played right into that. I still would LOVE TO HAVE LOVE, and cuddling from a man I loved, and everything, from companionship to my “best friend” like my husband and I had, but it isn’t a PREREQUISITE to happiness any more. Everyone I think needs HUMAN TOUCH, and most of us enjoy sexual touch, so I get my “human touch” by hugging my sons, and my friends. I’m a very touchy feely person. I’m learning to live without the sexual touch or having someone in bed with me at night, and I WOULD like those things, but at the same time, I am not interested in “friends with benefits” sort of relationships as I find that they don’t do any “good” for me, so I’ll stick to “nada” in that department until and if the “right man” comes along. Before though, I didn’t have the confidence and strength to NOT let not having the “ideal” relationship with a guy get me down. If that makes any sense with all the “double negatives.”


Kat I hear ya – I think when we need someome to complete us we end up being depleted. And most sociopaths need protection and security – and to us protection and security is part of loving someone, but not the sociopath, that is just something they use against us….

Ox Drover

Hey, Henry, have you heard from Perky lately? Tell her to get her butt back here, we miss her!

HOpe you had a good weekend, ours was rainy, but beautiful fall weather today and predicted for a week or so.

Today I hauled off the “rescue horses”–from the tornado last spring. It was a “challenge” getting the untrained wild one onto the trailer but—hey, “I’m smarter than a horse!”—and so we got her loaded without too much muss and fuss and hauled to her new place of residence, where I hope she will at least have enough to eat, the grass was knee high!

Everything else I have touched today turned to ca-ca or is it Ka-ka? Anyway things were the pits as far as just having “stuff” go wrong one thing after another, but the GOOD part is that other than a mild frustration at things, I’m still laughing, rather than being stressed out. I know “stuff” happens, flat tires, broken dishes, etc. it isn’t any “big deal” when you aren’t stressed to the max! Learning to live essentially UN-necessary-stress-free is a challenge in itself. The “necessary” stress of just stuff “happening”–and remember Murphy was an optimist! LOL—is nothing at all, it is “small stuff” compared to what we have been through so it’s tolerable at worst!

My son and I were discussing (laughing about) “If it isn’t ONE THING, it is ANOTHER thing.” We were deciding which “thing” that happened today was the ONE THING, and which was the ANOTHER THING! We never did decide, but we sure had a good laugh trying and coming up with “who’s on first” type silly puns. Gosh, guys, it is so freaking good to not be upset by which way the wind blows, and “one thing” or “another thing” that seem to be MONUMENTAL “things” when you’ve already had all you can stand.

I wish I could reach out and hug every one of you guys! I hope you know that you and Donna, and Liane and the Steves, and M. L. and everyone on here who has written articles or posted, have helped me so much. You all have shared your pain, your trials, and your growth with me and everyone else. Thanks guys so very very much, you just don’t know how ***HOW VERY***SPECIAL this site is and how special each of you are to me. Your different views of things and different takes on things helps us all see a wider scope in our lives. Thanks again.

G’nite everyone.


Perky – get yer butt back in here!! ok Oxy I told her..! oxy I think it was a typical full moon monday, everything I did went cawcawpoopoo on me too….


Did anyone notice a positive out of all we went through because of “them”? Not only are we stronger and wiser, more compassionate and loving, but we don’t sweat the small stuff. It just rolls off our backs. Thanks Oxy for mentioning this.


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