By | September 8, 2008 197 Comments

How to talk to friends and family about sociopaths

Last Sunday, the Asbury Park Press, a New Jersey newspaper, published a front-page article about the career of Edward J. Devine. On August 1, 2008, Devine was sentenced to five years in prison for bouncing checks and deceiving nonprofit and educational institutions.

The bulk of the story was not about those crimes, but what Devine did to the women in his life. Claiming to be the heir to a Sonoma wine company and a trucking mogul, he left one wife, Donna Devine, and her mother $400,000 in debt. He wiped out the inheritance of another wife, Deborah Weiss. He forced his first wife, Carol Ceralli, into bankruptcy.

It’s a story that many of us know, and some of us have experienced.

But what is significant to me about this story is that it was brought to my attention by my brother. He saw the story in the Asbury Park Press and sent me the link.

That same day, my husband suggested that I look into Mike Wooten, the trooper at the root of Sarah Palin’s Troopergate. My husband was the one who read the newspaper articles about Wooten. “The cop looks like one of your guys,” he said.

I investigated further, and my husband was right. In my opinion, Wooten is a sociopath.

So last Sunday, two members of my family alerted me to stories about sociopaths. They’ve learned what these predators look like.

I consider this a sign of success. I’ve been talking about sociopaths, and they’ve been listening.

Criticized by my family

It wasn’t always this way. When I was in the midst of the trauma, trying to pick up the pieces of my shattered life after learning that James Montgomery, my ex-husband, was a con artist, I could not talk to my family about it.

They criticized me for not listening to them when they expressed doubts. (This was after I was married to Montgomery—no one said anything before I married him.) Then they criticized my recovery methods. I quickly learned that it was best not to tell them what I was doing.

Eventually, however, I worked my way out of the hole. I also began to develop Lovefraud. But it took time. Lovefraud launched more than five years after my divorce.

Now, when I tell my family that more than 1,000 people who have written to Lovefraud with stories of being targeted by sociopaths, they seem to realize that I wasn’t as stupid as they thought I was. Anyone can be a victim.

Talking about the sociopath

So how do you talk to people about your experience with sociopaths? I think two preliminary steps are necessary:

First, you need to educate yourself about sociopaths. (The fact that there is so much confusion about what to call them—sociopaths, psychopaths, antisocials—doesn’t help.) Learn that millions of people have the disorder. Although there are symptoms and warning signs, these people are experts at hiding them. Treatment options are few to none. Everyone will run across a sociopath at some point, and if they don’t recognize the predator, they will become a target.

Second, you need to be able to discuss sociopaths as an educator, not as a victim. This means you probably are not going to be able to do it while the experience is raw. If you’re still coping with the pain, horror, self-doubt and grief, your friends and family will interpret your words as self-pity, and will come back with the refrain, “Get over it, already.” During the early phases of your recovery, it’s probably best to express yourself with the understanding community here at Lovefraud, rather than with your personal acquaintances who, however well-meaning, simply don’t understand.

But eventually, if you give yourself time and permission to heal, you will. And then, with your understanding of this destructive personality disorder, and your personal experience, you’ll be able to talk knowledgably about sociopaths to your friends and family. They’ll begin to understand, and start to recognize sociopaths on their own.

When you’re ready, you’ll be able to shine a light on these predators, and perhaps deny them a few victims. And that will lend some meaning of your awful experience.

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sorry to jump in off topic, but just wanted to get some thoughts about this: Yesterday I ran into the sociopath who lied to be about HIV. we were at a public event…we saw each other, but I was with my friends, he with his new ‘friend’… and my friends left after a while, and he and his friend where standing a good ways away from us. As we are wallking to the parking lot, my friend had to stop to user the restroom…and I happen to catch out of the corner of my eye- the S walking RIGHT behind me, in a fast manner even. I just kept walking to the car, and I could hear his steps getting closer. I thought maybe he was going to approach me. By the time we got to the car, he had turned and went another way. It was just plain WEIRD. This guy lied to me about HIV, and then denied it and laughed in my face. What the hell would he want to walk so closely behing me like that?? What do you think? Just to play mind games with me?

Of course, it’s all games your life, anyones life….and he played with you once…why not again, at it’s fun. It’s all about reaction. My psycho just yesterday made a point of getting close, in my sight line within hearing range, close….I see no one else that regularly in my face, but psycho. It’s to f–k with me, your psycho was f—king with you too.

No contact drives them mad, no reaction- I know it does mine. He has nothing but contempt for me, so why not avoid me, like I avoid him? Why because they feed off of attention and can’t imagine fools like us see through their act. Once you break their mask, and discard them, then they get annoyed.

I’d act as normal as you possibly can, while avoiding him as much as reasonable.

Dodged as I recall this guy left town for awhile- probably b/c he could have been charged with attempted murder re: spreading of HIV. Probably afraid of getting arrested.

Why not go to Public Health agency anonymously and report him. He’s deadly.


They get off on trying to scare you. It’s typical. If they can’t have your love, your fear is just as good.


Dear Dodged_A_Bullet: He was miffed that you and your friends ignored him at that event. You were suppose to be jealous, giving him the eye, starring at him, going over to him starting a scene. They love the attention. Because you didn’t do it … he was propelled to follow you … which was his way of insisting you turn around and acknowledge him. I witnessed at my EX’s mom’s funeral … his ex-wife and 2 children totally ignoring their dad. At the time, I was still in the dark and thought it was the two of them (prior spouses) ignoring each other. My EX actually stood in the middle of the after gathering hall … after his mom’s funeral and needed his family to acknowledge him. Of course, they never budged … it was months later that I was hit between the eyes of what he truly was … whatever anti-social personality you want to call him … definitely a “N”. I remember my first thoughts after gathering my faculties was “he can’t love” … that is the saddest of anything you can imagine … What an existence? Not being able to love and appreciate the rest of God’s creations down on Earth.

I don’t know how much of the family dynamics had to due with him turning out the way he is … because his parents were elderly by the time I dated him … aka mellowing out … not allowing me to see them in their prime. Both his parents seemed to be nice, normal parents … I’m assuming it was my EX’s own ego doing him in since he was a kid … jealous over his younger siblings taking mom and dad’s time away from him, him, him. Therefore, his ego took off and he didn’t learn the lessons from a “humble” perspective … wisdom learned as you do the work up front, reap rewards and all the lessons taught along the way. I believe only a few anti-socials were physically and/or mentally abused by their care-takers .. the rest, are just spoiled brats always wanting their own selfish ways. I believe if a child stays humble while listening to reprimands for their own safety and growth, they can hear and do what is required. If a child’s ego takes off … they don’t listen, do not care, do what they want … and that begins their creating their own anti-social personalities. I feel this from my heart of hearts and would like the mental health professionals to look further into this. I write this because my two sisters are from the same loving family as I and both of them live in their big egos all their lives … and yes, they were two of the many that loved blaming my EX on me and pouring salt into the wounds. Compassionate people? I think NOT. Be there for me when I’m down and out – yes … it’s a family obligation we all have towards everyone in the family.

I notice who had compassion and worked with me with kidd gloves … versa the “just get over it” attitude of the non compassionate folks that I know. And, there you go … either you are compassionate or you’re not.

One more thing … I remember asking my middle sister (after years of her critizing me for both my EX and my boss fiasco behaviors) saying to me all the time … “what did you do to them to react this way to you, none of us have ever had this problem”. I finally told her the reason I knew what my bosses and their cronies were all about … they were cut from the same selfish cloth as she! Call a spade a spade. She asked for it and I finally told her the truth. She hasn’t spoken to me for months. All the years from childhood she made me cry … now I know why. And, my parents never abused her. Never. She’s miffed because I was born … almost a year after her. I bumped her out of the “youngest” position and her ego got bruised and never got over it. I told her that too a few months back … “get over the fact that I was born” will ya?

Ego, it’s all about their big egos and their immature notions of what ruffled their feathers as children … for most of them.

Peace everyone … I’m doing my breathing exercises now … LOL.

Oh, hold your heads up high … you did nothing to deserve any of this except to be a loving and kind person … considerate, gentle … and all the other virtues of God … how he wants us to treat others … the anti-socials know this … that’s why they chose you and not your family members or your best friends … they can see your decency and were hoping it would rub off on them. When it didn’t … they got frustrated and moved on down the road to try and get “it” from someone else … not knowing they have to slow down, do the righteous steps … to get what we’ve acquired.


My EX has written me e-mails under disguise of phony IDs for a year or so. I can always tell it’s him when I run any truth by him … he totally ignores what I wrote. No reaction at all. So, I’ll write a few more times … back and forth then tell him to knock it off that I know it’s him … daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. They always need to be center of attention. Always. My question is why didn’t they go into the “acting” business. I’m sure H-wood would accept them all with open arms. Oh, I keep forgetting … the world is their stage.

I’m doing my breathing now.


Ox Drover

Dodged_a_bullet, I think it was just to “get your notice”—-and I concur, if you have not reported him to the authorities, you should. Most states now will prosecute HIV+ people who are not upfront with their sexual partners.

Donna, I agree with you, it is totally “IMPOSSIBLE” to get people to listen to you when you are in the “victim” role. The thing is once you are in the “victor” role it is much easier.

I think for no other reason than you can talk about it more rationally and logically and in a “sane” tone of voice. LOL Bck in the “insane” days of my first finding out that the Trojan HOrse P was a sexual predator and a friend of my P son’s about the ONLY person who believed me was the sheriff of our county, but when he ran the rap sheet he was “impressed” by hard evidence. Even people who had known me my ENTIRE life just “blew me off” as “hysterical” or “nuts.” Truth be told though, I guess I SOUNDED nuts. “there’s no fanatic like a convert” and I had been “converted” to realize this man was a monster and had hold of my family by the throat, I WAS hysterical.

I got to the point that I felt like I was looking at a building going up in flames and when I said “Help, Fire!” everyone else looked at it and said, “What, are you crazy? We don’t see any flames”—then, when it burned to the ground and they COULD see the scortched remains they said “Well why didn’t you DO SOMETHING? It’s your fault it is burned!” LOL “Did you set the fire?”

Now that things are “calmed down” and I am “rational” again, or at least RATIONAL NOW (LOL) people are believing me. I am having success in “educating” friends and family members about the devestation of the Ps, and what they are capable of, how to see red flags and recognize them for what they are. MOST IMPORTANT TO ME, though, is that my two sons C and D are “getting it”—and recognizing not only Ps but other dysfunctional behavioral patterns such as enabling, and manipulation, learning to set boundaries and stick to them. They are learning from hard experience like I did, but also from reading here at LF (son C) and from discussing these things with me. In addition, my son D used information about Ps in some of his programs this summer in working with other staff members at the BSA camp he works at, and with his friends as well. So the information that we “bought” at such great cost, the education about Ps, is being passed on to others.

The proliferation of Internet sites for victims continues, because people who have been victims WANT to get this information out there to people who have been wounded, but also to others who need that information to KEEP FROM being wounded, so the information is spreading, just like information about various kinds of cancer is being spread, so that people can detect it EARLY while there hasn’t been as much damage done.

I believe that the “how to recognize the signs of a P” is just as important as “doing your cancer check ups” regularly! It could save your LIFE and YOUR SANITY.

Not my fav Sunday evening program?????

Mutual of Omaha “Wild Kingdom.”


I’m just going to just relate my own experience with telling children about sociopath parents. I know it is against every rule, every guideline, BUT…

After my ex revealed himself, I shared some of what I was learning about psychopathy/sociopathy with the three youngest children. We grieved together, and they asked questions that I did my best to answer in a factual way. They were still in the home at the time, and all were devastated. Since the ex had a history of abandoning children completely, I didn’t expect him to remain in any of their lives.

However, after a few years, the ex conned my youngest, his natural child, into living with him. Promised the usual pie in the sky, as they all do. It was all my talking about sociopathy that, I believe, saved this child from his deadly grasp.

She remembered what I told her, observed his behavior and made her own decisions. And she got out before he could corrupt her completely, or cause her physical harm. So I am glad I talked about it, even when I was in the “victim” phase. Every word counts.

Another happy result: my oldest told me this past weekend that a recent love interest had been kicked to the curb. Seems she found out he lied, and about something big. So she got rid of him. She too learned that nothing is worth making excuses for a liar.

Ox Drover

Dear Tood,

Good For you !!!!!!!!


My P-bio father turned up when I was a teenager and “conned” me too, promising me adventure and excitement, he was at that time a well known film maker about wild animals, had airplanes and traveled all over the world. What kid wouldn’t want to go on safari!!! I went, worked for him for two years and got a REAL EDUCATUION in EVIL. It wounded me but didn’t make me “understand” what kind of “freight train” had borne down upon me, and mashed my soul. I eventually more or less recovered, but it was only after I realized what was going on, what kind of EVIL had hit me that I was able to truly completely heal from that horrible experience more than 40 years ago. To forgive him (get the bitterness out of my heart toward what he did) and to forgive myself (for falling for it all and not leaving when the pain started).

Yep, for some reason they seem to frequently go back to a child they abandoned in the early years and try to reestablish contact and use them for NS. I’m not sure why, it sure isn’t “love” for the child, probably more or less “ownership” of some kind. Let the other parent raise the child (for better or worse) then they pick up there for NS never having “been there” during the child’s raising. I think it is natural curosity for a child to want to get to know their “birth parents” but when the birth parent is a P, it isn’t going to be a good encounter I can tell you that from experience—PAINFUL experience. I did get some wonderful adventures out of the deal, and made some friends that were life time friends, and also met my late husband, so there was some GOOOD came out of the encounter, but also plenty of painful things as well, years of pain I didn’t truly understand.

Now, looking back, I can see both sides of that “cloud” and I am grateful for the knowledge now that the worst of the confusion and the pain is gone. I think the CONFUSION about WHY and WHAT we are dealing with is part of the worst of it. By recognizing WHAT we have been dealing with and WHO and WHAT they are, we can come to resolution and acceptence. Just like if we felt a pain in our foot, and didn’t know “what bit us”—a snake, a spider, what? Once we know what bit us, we know what to do for the wound. That not knowing I think was part of the most painful thing to me.


Ox Drover


Nah, not that one, but one similar to that that ran a few years before that in syndication. Later he got out of the animal and movie business and went into another industry with something he invented and made a bloody fortune out of (he ended up on the Forbes 400 list in the 1980s, but he had made and lost several fortunes over his life time in several different businesses. He died last year, June I think, I was notified by his estate that I wasn’t getting anything (BIG SUPRISE!!! NOT!) but the funny thing was, back in the days when I was really hurt by him, I thought I would get an attorney and protest his estate, but when the time actually came, I didn’t want any of his money—even if he had left me a zillion $ I would have donated it to charity and not spent a penny of it. I REALIZED I DIDN’T WANT HIS BLOOD MONEY.

He also cut out 2 of my 3 half sibs who apparently also have NC with him, he didn’t even n ame us by name in the estate, just “my other children” and that he was purposely not leaving us money “and we knew the reasons why”—but the estate had to by law notify us and send us copies of the estate and will. I haven’t seen any of them since 1967, and only talked once to the one son that I think is very much like him, the one that got “it all” (whatever amount that was, with my P bio father, though he was tremendously wealthy at one point, he may for all I know have been dead broke when he died) Wife #6 got a big chunk when they got divorced and wife #5 also did well for herself I think, wife #7 died before he did, but wives 1-5 got nothing. In fact, wife #5 had to run for her life, leaving her three children behind with him.

My mom was wife #2. Wife #1 was married when he was 16 and the marriage was annuled by his father since his father had not given permission for him to marry.

My late husband had a short partnership with him, but it didn’t last long because as usual, he tried to screw over every “partner” he had and my late husband was not one to be “afraid” of his blustering. My P-bio F was one to beat up on or threaten people he thought were weaker than him, he never stood up to anyone who would stand up to him. My husband was a very quite man, but he wasn’t one to be PUSHED or intimidated and he was not intimidated by my P-bio F and so the relationship could not last. Anyone who was a victim-mentality and/or afraid of him was fair game for him, but not people who set boundaries. One of the reasons he HATED ME WITH A PASSION (and others who stood up to him) and did everything he could to villianize us in print and verbally, was that he COULD NOT STAND anyone who was STRONG. There was a man we knew in Africa that he threatened to kill if he didn’t help him in an illegal scheme he had and the man said “Go ahead, it still won’t get you what you want.” I can ONLY IMAGINE the RAGE that P-bio F felt at coming nose to nose with another person he couldn’t threaten into compliance.

I know of two murders he committed (both out side of the US) and he claims to have murdered others, but you know he was SUCH A LIAR there is no telling if he did or not. I know he was capable of murder without remorse. He also knew that I KNEW WHERE THE BODIES WERE, so that was another thing he hated and feared me for. Personally, being hated by him puts me in GOOD COMPANY with some great people. People I admire(d) very much. My P-bio father was 80 when he died last year, but as far as I know, my one half brother is the only human being that “admired” him or wanted to emulate him, or thought he was a “great man.” He was smart, and his inventions did well, but his EGO was as large as I have ever seen on a P, and his capacity for meanness and violence as bad as they get. The only differences between him and my P-son (who never met him) is that my P-son didn’t get away with his crimes and was never financially successful enough to “buy” people and things.


somebody help with this. No contact now for 5 month’s. He had every trait of a sociopath, every trait of a BPD. It’s like they wrote the book’s about him. But I have had this guilt in my gut for 5 month’s or longer. I devalued and discarded him. I kicked him out. Numerous time’s I made him leave. I knew he was toxic. I knew he was killing me inside. I know he can’t or won’t change. But I devalued and discarded him. I called him awful names. Am I a sociopath? Why do I keep thinking it was all my fault? What could I have done to make him happy? Why do I (know) he was using me and still ask myself this?

Here’s a scrap of the Bible I recall…”don’t throw your pearls to the swine…”

Gospel this week….someone acts badly confront him, ignore you get another to to witness to their crime in your presence , they ignore you,- go to Church- ignore you after that…treat em like gentiles and tax collectors…
I believe any victim of a sociopath has gone well beyond this biblical injunction…Henry you are weird : -)
but not a sociopath!!!!!!



oh henry! i hear you loud and clear.
for the last six months of my relationship with my ex s/p, i said the most horrible things i had ever said in my life. i called him an idiot, an asshole, an effin’ liar. i screamed. i ranted and raved. i told him he was a piece of shit. i stomped around. i must have looked insane.
i threw my s/p out of my apartment a dozen times, and i MEANT it. i was at the end of a rope so thin it was transluscent. i never hated any one so much. i simply could not have believed that he (or anyone on earth!) could be so callous and remorseless. no boundaries, no explanations, no apologies.
truly, significantly mindblowing.
i have thought as you have — that i abandoned him when he needed me most. that perhaps i really didn’t understand how hard everything was for him. that i was untrue to my pledge that i would love him forever, no matter what. that i would try harder and make him sooooo happy. that i would lose weight and look like i did when we met 20 YEARS AGO!
but, after being slapped down about 4 million notches, I decided that my behavior was a normal reaction to an incredibly abnormal situation. nothing more. nothing less.
we DID NOT devalue and discard them. we simply were brought to a place — regardless of the good times, the hot sex, the intense loving/hating — where we knew we had to save ourselves … a place where we finally GOT that it was not okay to be abused.
WE DIDN’T DEVALUE THEM — we simply valued ourselves a teeny tiny bit.
WE DIDN’T DISCARD THEM — they brought us to a place of realization that we were close to DEATH.
they brought us — with their mind-f#&king and shape-shifting –to the place where our very survival was truly … truly at stake. what we experienced, and accepted, was nothing less than god-given survival instinct.
we did NOTHING to them. we simply SAVED OURSELVES.


Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

You are NOT a sociopath!!!

The thing that you wrote about how you “devalued and discarded” him makes me think of how my son felt and said after he divorce his x-wife after she tried to kill him while she was having the affair with the Trojan Horse P.

You did NOT “de-value” him, you simply saw that he HAS NO VALUE, and yes you did “discard” him, the way you should discard something that is toxic and noxious.

Yes, you called him awful names. In your own pain you were frantic and you acted “out of character” and you behaved poorly. FORGIVE YOURSELF HENRY. I called my mother a “senile old bat” in my anger, I felt bad for doing it and I apologized—not that she would “forgive me” and hasn’t to this day.

IT IS/WAS NOT YOUR FAULT. You cannot fix the psychopath. They do NOT WANT TO BE FIXED. They will NOT ALLOW you to fix them.

Your questions and doubts Henry are EMOTIONAL not rational and logical. When you start to feel this way, to feel guilty and accuse yourself of being “bad” to him, and “not helping” him, or not “fixing” him, say STOP!!!! to yourself, and then ask yourself, “Why is my internal toxic parent beating my internal child?” You and I were both raised by people who “guilted” us into taking the BLAME for anything that happend, for any one else’s unhappiness—-BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? It ain’t so! You are NOT to “blame” or “at fault” for others’ unhappiness and bad behavior.

You have acknowledged your own bad behavior (name calling) and have shown that you are REMORSEFUL for that. But because you did that, does’t mean that he deserved to be “valued” when he has NO value as a person, because of his bad behavior and his CHOICES. What is his value to you? To give you more pain?

He has NO REMORSE FOR CHEATING ON YOU, lying etc. do you think? You sure have no “value” to him now that you are not his “sugar daddy” providing him a house to live in etc. Do you think he didn’t “devalue” you when he cheated on you, lied to you? Which is worse, losing your temper and caling some one a name or going out and sleeping with others behind their back, bringing them to your home and presumably your bed to sleep with them.??? Think about it Henry! Who did the de-valuing? He devalued you with the way he treated you not just with words. Throwing him out was the RIGHT thing to do.

Now, BOINK! BOINK! STraighten up your thinking, brother, before I have to get the BIG skillet out! ((((hugs)))))


ox: ohhhhhhhhhhh … good one! i smiled when i realized we were both busily writing our responses to henry at exactly the same time. we were simultaneously pouring over our experiences and pulling out nuggets of wisdom. i think of us all here on LF as sages. we have graduated into some odd cadre of learned ones(!)… who have taken on sociopaths and emerged wise beyond where anyone should be expected to be wise!
lol … does that make sense?
anyway, great response. it gave me an entirely OTHER resource to draw upon. “which is worse” indeed!!! who devalued who? damn ho’s!
i feel calm and okay tonight. it is so wonderful to see glimpses of myself again.
sending my love and prayers to all …


Henry, The mere fact that you are asking yourself those guestions, worrying about them, and actually caring what the answer is is proof positive you are no sociopath.

I actually told my ex-P the last weekend we were physically together that I thought he was a psychopath. His response was a very dramatic exclamation of: ” I’m not a f***ing serial killer!” I explained to him very calmly that all psychopaths are not serial killers and all psychopaths do not kill. I then started explaining to him the traits, including lying excessively, conning others, hurting others deliberately and feeling no guilt or remorse for it, not being able to feel love, not caring about anothers welfare etc.–the whole shebang. He’s normally very talkative, but he actually listened very attentively as I explained the traits, a slightly odd expression on his face. He sat there very calmly for about 30 seconds after I finished talking, not saying a word, looked like he was actually analyzing what I said, then calmly, without even looking concerned, shrugged and said, “Maybe I AM a psychopath.” I didn’t say anything, waiting to see if he elaborated, but his next remark was that he was hungry and what did I have to eat.

Didn’t seem to bother him in the least that I thought he was a psychopath with all those traits as long as I didn’t think he was a serial killer. It was just more of a slight curiosity–hhhmn, maybe that fits look on his face, then on to the next subject like it was no big deal at all, he didn’t care. Other than the slightly odd look on his face when I was explaining the traits, he showed no emotional reaction to it at all. He never mentioned it again, nor did I.

Although I can never know for sure, I believe that odd look on his face was that he was recognizing himself in what I was saying as I went thru the traits, then mulling it over and analyzing it and thinking yeah that seemed to fit him and thikning so that is the name–psychopath–that explains him. But as for him caring, it was like no big deal, who cares, other than the curiosity factor it seemed to have for him–otherwise his reaction was like I told him it was raining.

Ox Drover

Dear LIG,

Yep, we become “sages”! LOL and boy is the “sage school” a TOUGH COURSE OF STUDY! LOL I sure as heck don’t want to repeat any ore of the classes there. I failed them the first tie or two through the University of Hard Knocks, and I finally “graduated” and I even have an “advanced degree” a PhD—PILED HIGHER AND DEEPER! HA HA

Your list of your “sins” and the terrible things you said and that Henry said, reminds me so MUCH OF MYSELF. Boy, did I ever get wound up and spout off at the mouth. But like you said it was a “normal” response to an abnormal situation where we were driven to the brink of destruction. WHO would not react that way? Jesus? but even St. Peter picked up a sword and cut off the ear of one of the guys who was there to take Christ away from the garden to crucify Him.

When you are in a situation where you feel threatened emotionally or physically to “fight back” is a NORMAL response. For so long I felt so BAD about how I had behaved, how I had talked to my mother, how I had actually HATED my P-son, my mother etc. But hating, saying horrible things, those are NOT ME, but yet, they BECAME my reaction to the pain I was in.

Jen, that is an interesting observation about your P being told what a P is—I think you are right, he knew you had him “nailed” and HE DIDN’T CARE. They sure don’t like being called a “killer” if they aren’t or anything else they didn’t actually DO. Boy do they take offense if you acuse them of something they actually didn’t do. LOL Of course they ALSO take offense if you tell them about something they DID do, but it’s not quite the same amount of outrage if they actually aRE guilty. LOL


Thank you Thank you Thank you — I needed that boink on the head Oxy! I am a weird emotional guy, not alway’s rational. Thank you Lostingrief – girl you spelled it out!!!! Thanks Jen2008 so much wisdom from you all. I needed some reinforcement’s. with time I will accept what I know – and I hope someday I can bake that cake made out of rainbow’s and smile’s and we will all eat and be happy hugs peace thank you

Ox Drover

Henry, darling! We are ALL “Weird” as far as that goes, we HAVE EMOTIONS and are able to love and we have a conscience, and sometimes our conscience works overtime and we are “guilty” about things we should not be. I have struggled with the “guilt” of saying bad things when Iwas angry and frustrated, and doing things that are out of character for me, and forgiving myself has been a difficult thing for me to do. It is much easier for me to forgive someone else’s faults than it is MY OWN faults. I keep beating myself up for not being “perfect” no matter what the situation or the provocation.

In THEORY we should always keep our heads no matter what is happening around us, but you know, there are just sometimes that is asking “too much” to keep your head no matter what. I have tired all my life to do that, but sometimes I have failed.

Other than Jesus himself, I don’t think there is a human in the world that CAN’T be “provoked” into anger and bad behavior if the provocation is big enough. Forgiving ourselves for “being human” is an okay thing to do. Of course we need to realize that what we did was not good (or was wrong) and accept that, and do our best not to repeat that kind of behavior, but to expect ourselves to be “perfect” under ALL circumstances is NOT OK. I’m human, you’re human. WE do things we shouldn’t, we say things we shouldn’t, but we need to forgive ourselves for not being perfect….and for expecting ourselves to be perfect.


Dear Oxy, I was never trying for perfection, just doing unto others as I would like done unto me.

101 Church … as a toddler … still turning around and looking around at all the people as your mothers pearls broke off her neck while sternly placing your face forward and talking through her teeth for you to behave. Didn’t take an Einstein to learn the very first lesson walking through the church doors. Don’t tell me whoever raised you never walked you through the doors … it’s 2008 … even if the sermon came across your MTV … you still heard a sermon somewhere?



Henry: Let’s simplify this … next time your emotions take you on that COO-COO for Coco Puff’s ride …

If every time you came to my house I automatically punched you in the nose? No provocations regarding this, I just hauled off and punched you in the nose. Would you keep coming to my house?

That’s about the jest of what they are all about.

Peace sweety, peace.


Oxy, My P was very clean cut looking, came from a fairly well off family, and on the surface looked pretty good. Until I learned his past history that is, and of course, until I became deeply involved with him. But on the subject of serial killing, I doubt he is that simply because they are so rare, but frankly it would not surprise me in the least (sad to say) if it someday came to light that he has killed someone. Although he had never met my ex-husband, he commented on no less than three different occasions that he felt like my ex had murdered someone and I just didn’t know about it.

I thought at the time that it was an off the wall nutty comment driven perhaps by jealousy of my ex, with whom I am still on good terms with. Now I wonder if it was some sort of projection of something that he himself had actually done, but who knows. He would disappear for days sometimes and I had no idea where he was. Coulda been doing anything.
The therapist felt like he would score so high on the PCL-R that he would be in serial killer range, but of course, the therapist did not have him there to evaluate in person, although I did have alot of info about his childhood, his 3 marriages, 4 cohabitations of more than a year, several cohabs lasting just a few months, lengthy criminal history spanning about 25 years (all misdemeanors in a variety of things, except one felony theft, and his disregard for terms of probation), his gazillion jobs, and a ton of examples of his conning and pathological lying, not just with regards to me, but with others (very specific examples), alcohol abuse/drug abuse etc. He didn’t have a pot to piss in, too impulsive to hang onto any money and SAVE (or bother to pay his bills–would just throw ’em in the trash unless it was something that had to be paid like court fines etc.) , not to mention all that job hopping and periods of unemployment, but was the biggest bragger alive, thinking himself superior to everyone in both looks and intellect and felt everyone was jealous of him, and if he screwed them over then they DESERVED IT. They deserved it was a term he used alot.

He was also sometimes paranoid about other peoples motives. Also did not keep in contact with his kids, other than once in a blue moon he would suddenly phone them, make all sorts of promises to them about seeing them or something he is gonna buy them, then as soon as he hung up the phone that iwas the end of that, until a few months later when he’d do it all over again. Never followed thru on anything he ever told them. Yet if he was around someone he wanted to make an impression on he’d talk about his kids, the importance of family and how they were “his life”.

But let him hear about anything his ex wife did that could even be remotely questionned, he was suddenly in full gear threatening to call Family SErvices etc. because she was neglecting HIS children. (which was utter hogwash) I’m sure some of the ladies with children here can identify with that. Ok, I went on a bit of a rant here, but l have to admit it wouldn’t really surprise me to see his face splashed across the evening news someday.


I have 2 young children–under 11. I have been telling them things about people–Ignore what people say and watch what they do; half truths are considered lies. I have told my oldest that I trust their S dad as far as I can throw him. Maybe it is too much info for my oldest to hear right now?

I am not sure how much to tell them. My oldest seems to really look up to him and wants his approval. He reminds me of my ex S so much that it is very frustrating. From what I understand being a S is heretitary (sp) and environmental. I am trying to change the latter to make sure he knows about truths, honesty, and I try to show my example to live by. He has been talking about living with his dad in the next 3 years. This is the most frightening thing I can imagine. I raise these kids and then he takes them away. Over my dead body–I will fight like hell in court.

His mother actually told me that he was a N. I told her that he was worse than that, but I held out on the word S. I am not sure why. Perhaps, I didn’t think she could understand it. She still thinks she can change him, which I told her that he won’t change. She had said that if he is a good father to his kids with his new wife, she will be so angry with him because he wasn’t their for our kids. I told her that he won’t change and he will be the same father, just older. He doesn’t want to be bothered with more kids, I believe he just wants to look normal with a family. This is what he is trying to create. To me he is just trying to create his paycheck to give more child support for more kids.

Any thoughts with dealing with young children and their S father? You know what, their S father doesn’t deserve these great kids. Also, are there any signs that a child may be a S? My oldest one is the one I fear may turn into his father…



My ex called Social Services so many times I felt like I was under siege. Every time I explained it was retaliation and that he was using their service to abuse me, but of course they still had to do their reports, which were all “unfounded”. I tried to get them to prosecute him for false reporting, but they wouldn’t do it.

Ginger.. my ex wooed away one of our children, my oldest son, to live with him. I religiously took him for weekends even though he was abusive to the younger kids. The younger kids would always ride with me to pick him up, three hours round trip, because that thirty seconds when he was putting his stuff in my trunk was the only time they got to see their father.

I thought he was at least trying to be a good dad to the one kid. I found out later he was alone all the time, not going to school, smoking pot and sleeping all day. Luckily he pulled himself together and joined the army. He is just home from Iraq now.

Still them going to live with the other parent after you do all the work of raising them is classic, it could happen.. if it does, make sure you don’t take it personally.. after all.. he fooled you and you’re an adult.. but try as much as you can to inoculate them against his behavior. My oldest says I did this for her, she calls it her built-in-BS-o-meter.

Ox Drover

Dear Ginger,

Dr. Leedom has a blog on “raising the at risk child”–there is a link here to take you there. I would strongly suggest that you go to that blog and read and read. Good stuff.

The other thing is, Ginger, and I have a P-son, is that if the genetics are strong enough, I think, there isn’t a lot you can do, but you have to try. I wish now in retrospect, I had walked away from my kid when he was 17 and I went to the police station to pick him up and take him home. He came down stairs and said “What the F___ took you so long?” I looked at the policeman and said “There’s obviously been a mistake, that isn’t my son, MY SON would not talk to me like that” Then my husband and I turned and walked out, leaving my P-son there. I did let him come home a week later, WITH A RADIO COLLAR ATTACHED TO HIS LEG, but even that didn’t stop him, he cut it off and ran to another state on a stolen motorcycle.

Of course he was caught 3 months later and brought back. When I went to see him in jail, he gave me the finger. He never lived in my home from then on, but went from crime to crime and from jail to prison, where he is now for murder in 1991.

You know, I should never have let him “con” me into being “supportive” and believing that he was changed, remorseful, etc. When he got out of jail in 1989, he went right back into some seriouis crime (home invasion) and was arrested. During that time I went to visit him in jail and in prison even though he was in another state, and of course, sent commissary money. He led us to belive he wanted to come home when he got out on parole, so we wrote these glowing letters to the parole board and got others to do so.

When he actually got out, he did NOT come home, but he did come visit, and on the visit which was NOT a pleasant visit, he told me, sort of like it was a punishment or a curse, “the reason I did NOT COME HOME (like I should be disappointed) is because I KNEW that if I got into trouble again, you would call the law again!” I looked him right in the eye and said “You got that chit right! The rules around here have NOT CHANGED and if you violate the law I will call the cops!”

I never again saw him in the free world, within a couple of months he had killed a girl for “ratting him out” for a crime they were both involved in. He was arrested the next day in January of 1991. He continued to deny the murder even though the EVIDENCE was so overwhelming he might as well have had a video clip of him doing it. NO DOUBT about it.

I have looked back over my “child rearing practices” and I have no doubt in my mind that there was NO WAY he could have been turned from his “life of crime.” He had every opportunity in the world and while no childhood is “ideal” by any means, he had his choices, and he chose the “dark side” of his own free will. He is VERY much like my P-bio father in personality and in anger, rage, control etc. he just isn’t as successful at it as my P-bio father was. In fact, he thinks my P-bio F was a “great man” (he never met him) because he got away with so much and got so rich.

I know from experience that NO one wants to “give up on” a child, (no matter how old the “child” is) but there comes a point that if you don’t, they will WRECK your life and the lives of your other children. I have felt the tug between doing for one child at the expense of the other. My P-son, looking back, only exhibited one instance of pre-adolsescence P-type behavior at age 11, but when he hit puberty good, he did a Jeckyl and Hyde flip flop. For the next 20+ years it was NOTHING BUT PAIN intersperced with MALIGNANT UNREALISTIC HOPE. I would never ride that roller coaster again, It was the tallest, scariest most fearful “ride” in the world. I wish now I had never gotten on that roller coaster, but I can’t undo the past, all I can do is learn from it, and if possible, warn others what a SCARY experience it is.

I’ve seen others on that roller coaster, and not many of them seem to have what it takes to “get off” the ride, they still hold on to the hope that “where there is life there is hope.” But, sometimes, that just isn’t true, there IS NO HOPE that they will “see the light” and change. Also, what I DO KNOW is that ENABLING them to continue in their behavior ISN’T GONNA CHANGE THEM, even if you get off the “ride” (which protects you) IF they are going to change they will on their own, if they don’t, it isn’t because you got off the ride.

I have so much empathy for those of you who have children by the P and know that gene MIGHT BE THERE, or for those of you who may have a P-child and know that your child is “just like daddy/mommy” and that there’ s naught you can do. (In my case, the child is “just like” his grandfather and his “uncle Monster”–but I can’t fix it, and he won’t, so to protect myself and have a life, I HAD TO GET OFF and just leave him in God’s hands.



I think we all go through a stage of wondering whether we are an S/P ourselves. My theory is that, to escape a real sociopath with our lives and sanity sorta intact, we must force ourselves to become a little more like them. We must fight against our own natures–to be kind, forgiving, understanding, empathetic–and we must harden up somewhat just in order to get away from them.

Any action for our own self-interest feels like heartlessness to us, because we are so used to doing all the emotional work for OTHER people, not ourselves.

No, you’re probably nowhere near being an S/P!

And on another point, I didn’t even have to accuse mine of being a psychopath. All I said to him was “I know what you are!” and he did the rest. He said I had accused him of being “some sort of monster.”

He knows exactly what he is, and he terms it a monster. That’s one time he was spot-on with the truth.


Oh Henry, you acted the way you did because he (M) was mistreating you. SPs act the way they do, because that is how they are, you dont need to do much to incur their wrath. Your wrath however, was in a different context.


Beverly!!! I have been thinking about you. How are you doing?? I just got back from Colorado. Had a good time even though it was a working vacation. Yes I realize (M) brought out the worst in me at times. And they do mess with our mind’s and screw up our reality. It just creep’s me out that I can know all this and despise what he did and how he treated me and kinda miss him at the same time. But I am spending sometime with a new guy (D), he is a landscaper like me, and we get along so well. It is nice to have a normal conversation’s about polotic’s, religion, bermuda grass! (M) and I never had too much too talk about. It was all drama and chaos…. (D) asked me to go to the state fair so am looking forward to that. Good to see and Beverly..and thanks again to all the support from my bloggers. I will get (healed) someday – and oh how much better I am already…..


Tood thanks – there was one time (M) was spot on with the truth – he said (I have always been f–ked up and never been good with emotion’s) – which made me want to help him even more. It was futile.


Hi Beverly: Haven’t blogged with you in months. Hope all is well.



Henry: That’s because you loved him. It’s natural to miss the people we love. We expect people to respect us and treat us kindly, when they don’t, that’s were the confusion arises. Everything you are going through, the waffling, the anger, the peace, back again, through all the levels of what you are experiencing is normal. Hang in there … you will get through this phase of the horror. Focus on who you are at this minute, where you’ve been in your life, where you are right now, and all your dreams for the future. Pray to God to help you through this ordeal. Pray for peace and serenity to come back into your life. Pray for your EX that he is brought closer to God. Pray that your EX can feel his emotions again. Pray that God brings him closer to him. God will take it from there.

Anytime you waffle and find yourself down in the dumps … pray to God to help you with your depression.

Peace sweety, peace.


Oh,,,,Lostingrief”..Thank you. (re: Monday Sept. 8 @ 7:51 p.m.)
I have never heard it put with such gut-wrenching clarity. And I needed to hear it so badly today.

The bad people, (the N-Ex and his N-mommy) are still trying to beat me down, even after 5 years of separation and one full year of divorce. I try to stand strong for my children and myself but sometimes it wears me down and that little voice of doubt starts to wonder what I did to them to deserve my sub-human, garbage dump status.

For 15 years I cared, I served, I gave in, I pleased, and in the end, my only crime was saying “no more,” That and sticking up for myself, my children and the truth, asking for half of the house and a few years for the kids and I to live here til I get through nursing school”and every so often holding the Ns accountable for their current actions. I SWEAR”that is all.

I never even did those other things you mentioned. For the last six months of my relationship with my N-ex I worried, had a 6-month long anxiety attack trying to find out who or what he was “doing” and not be discovered doing so and listening to him blatently LIE in marriage counceling. The last month of this I lost a pound a day (I was slender already), and thought I was going to die. In fact, I didn’t say horrible things or any of that other stuff EXCEPT the last week or so”AFTER I found out about the MEN, COUPLES, SWAPPING, LYING etc. and then had it denied, then rationalized, then blamed ON ME!. Like you said, “………i simply could not have believed that he (or anyone on earth!) could be so callous and remorseless. no boundaries, no explanations, no apologies. truly, significantly mindblowing……..”

Then I tried to make it work AGAIN for about 6 months after he moved out!

Now, they try to use my children (8 and 10), People at the kids’ school, neighbors, his new victim/wife (now accomplice), children’s services, and once in a while N-Mommy-dearest-n-law even tries working on my own family. My family “gets it” so no harm can be done there, but knowing they are at work on their malignant poison in the rest of the community day in and day out affects me constantly.

My doubts fester, wondering who’s hearing what and who’s believing what and how much this affects my children. Since those people don’t “get it”, they too must be wondering what horrible things I did or what kind of horrible person I am to rate such hatred.

Often I feel like an alien from Hell wherever I go. My life seems so different from all those other peoples “normal” lives. You try to make conversation about, “normal” things, to be a “normal” person”.but you feel as if you wear a sign on your forehead. “It’s a HELL thing”you wouldn’t understand.” Could one ever describe hell and NOT be looked upon as delusional? The loneliness is crushing. They had me isolated back then in their reality twisted, sick little world. I kept expecting it to change since I “escaped.” However, it occurred to me today, they are still doing it”isolating me and our children with their poison. Or is it me, because I let them do it? When will I be worthy of joining the real world of “normal people” living balanced normal lives?

Perhaps I should make a sign out of your words, hang it on my bathroom mirror and read it aloud to myself everyday like an affirmation.

>>>>>>>>we DID NOT devalue and discard them. we simply were brought to a place regardless of the good times, the hot sex, the intense loving/hating where we knew we had to save ourselves ” a place where we finally GOT that it was not okay to be abused.
WE DIDN’T DEVALUE THEM we simply valued ourselves a teeny tiny bit.
WE DIDN’T DISCARD THEM they brought us to a place of realization that we were close to DEATH.
they brought us with their mind-f#&king and shape-shifting ”“to the place where our very survival was truly ” truly at stake. what we experienced, and accepted, was nothing less than god-given survival instinct.
we did NOTHING to them. we simply SAVED OURSELVES


To, Lostingrief…continued,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for looking it in the face and calling it by it’s right name. Now I just need to put it in my brain, my heart and my soul and keep it there. That is the challenge of the ’Damn’aged.

Perhaps I should have it put on a t-shirt and wear it everyday around those “normal” people too”.to answer all of their silent questions without them having to ask.


I’m sure that I would have the opposite experience when it comes to my ex S wanting my attention. If he were to bump into me, he’d run like a scared rabbit! I witnessed him do this when we were together when he’d THINK he caught a glimpse of one of his exes when we were shopping or in a public place! He was totally PARANOID about running into them. I thought it a bit strange that anyone would go the the lengths that he did to avoid them. He even said that the reason he didn’t have a relationship with his daughter was because he didn’t want to have to see her mother! And, no, he didn’t even try to have a relationship with a son that he had by another woman, either. Yet, he’d tell me how much he wished that he could be a part of his children’s lives and how much it hurt him that he COULDN’T be a father to them. As far as I know, no one was stopping him! I am still convinced that he is a sociopath even though he doesn’t seem to want the attention of any of his past victims! He’s the biggest coward I’ve ever known!


“Am I a sociopath? Why do I keep thinking it was all my fault?”


This is something that I too had to deal with after I threw my ex out because she told the children and me how she was going to leave us for another man. Of course in the back of my mind I really wanted her to go because I just couldn’t stand her anymore. I knew my relationship with her has been dead for years. But after she lied about were she would be living and that she in fact left the state. Most if not all her lies started to come apart. But I often wonder if I was like her? After beginning my research in this topic of sociopaths and seeing who she was for the first time. Again I thought there must be something wrong with me to had allow this type of abuse to exist for so long. So off I went (I needed therapy anyway concerning my depression) to a psychologist. I begged them to test me. Explaining all the hurt pain and lies we all suffer during those 17 years of emotional roller coasting to them. So they tested me and tested me some more. First sending me off to a psychologist then a therapist. Now I know I suffer from PTSD which I had since my childhood. I ask them “do I have a personality disorder?” “What do I have?”. The tester after completing her tests look at me and said “Maybe you don’t have anything wrong with you”…

Asked the therapist the same question. Nothing he just tells me how impress he is because I took the effort to research the topic and found some answers on my own. And how (the therapist) he likes the way I try to look at myself from outside myself. Never once did I hear anything negative from him. Just support and encouragement from my therapist.

So if I do have some sociopathic traits why didn’t anyone say something? Why didn’t it come up in therapy? Why didn’t it show up on the tests? I went to therapy and it help me so much. I took my antidepressant which also help with the emotional inner turmoil and my panic attacks. My healing came faster (1 1/2 yrs, if that is fast? LOL) and my normal persona return to normal. I now am James again only much wiser and stronger (emotionally) then ever before! But still not once did this suggestion that I too suffer from a personality disorder ever come up when talking with my psychologist and never with my therapist.

I also would like to share that is has been 2 3/4 years of NC!!! That which I am very proud of!!


escaped: there is no normal … EVERYONE is dealing with some nonsense in their world. it just so happens that we hit the jackpot!
yes, the isolation. my ex lured me back to nyc after six years of being away from him (we’ve been together on-off for 25 years!) and when i finally thought he ‘got it’ i did return to be with him. he was separated from his wife. but as soon as i came back, he manipulated it to where i was always sitting home waiting for him to show up. he’d say he was on his way and not show up for three hours, not answer his cell, etc. ”oh, i was playing basketball” … “oh, i ran into my brother.” i always believed him, but in the meantime, i dropped everything and everyone i enjoyed … to make him feel loved and cared for and happy.
of course, he’s been cheating, lying, manipulating and everything else these leeches do the entire time.
but, truly, i don’t think there is normal. what appears normal has its lunacy too.
my minister says that those of us who have dealt with people like these are earning our PhD in spirituality!!! i’m goin’ with that!


so …
help me out here folks.
this morning i found out that my ex has been telling our mutual friends (who i dropped in order to truly have NC and no information!) that we broke up because i cheated on him. i am LIVID!!!! i never even LOOKED at another guy in the past 16 years!
so, i told this friend the TRUTH. he was stunned. he couldn’t believe that my ex could have treated me this way because the friend KNEW how much i loved him and what i had done for him!
QUESTION: i want to call my ex and RAGE at him for LYING!!! we have had NO contact for more than four weeks now. should i leave him a message letting him know i’m aware of this lie? should i just let it be? how many others are looking at me and saying, ”what a slut grace is” can you believe she cheated on HIM!?!? he’s so gorgeous, he’s such a catch. why would she do that?”
i’m furious. one more slap in the face from afar.
WHAT DO I DO ?????


One of the best things I did was to buy Hare’s book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. When I was able to share specific information from that book with friends and family, it was like a light turned on for them. I even sent a copy to one of my brother’s recent victims, and it helped her to feel less responsible for her own victimization. People who are still under his spell refuse to accept any suggestion that he’s a sociopath though. Our mother is one of these people. She has abandoned her relationships with her daughters and their children in favor of her sociopathic son. She has even listed her home and has bought another one in the town where he lives. What a mistake! Has she forgotten that, in his 20+ years of adult life, he has never lived anywhere longer than a few years? He has had 17 addresses in 20 years!


LIG You don’t talk to his friend’s. You don’t talk to your friend’s about him. You change your phone number’s. Change lock’s on house. Do you want all this pain and madness to go away? Do you want your life back? Stop calling him. Stop caring what he/she say’s. There will never be any closure on him. In time everyone will see the truth. As long as you continue this verbal argument you are sinking in quicksand. Stop – NO CONTACT period… mutual friends? no contact with them – they have no idea what you are dealing with and you can’t convince them he is evil so stop – no contact with them either –change numbers TODAY


thanks henry.
but no one has tried to call me.
i ran in to the friend on the street.
i’ll shut up now and just remember there are no answers.
i just hate for anyone to think i did anything wrong.


yes it is – you have given (me) some good advice and comforted me when I was ( going crazy) you know what is going on – hang in there sweetie


Dear lost in Grief,

See that maligning behavior for what it is…projection and sabatoge. If you call an rage at him, he will deny it anyway. I know, I’ve been there too with my exN. It’s tough to know what to do because:
1. You want him to know you know what he did.
2. You want to make sure he knows it didn’t work
But why? Will it change his behavior or just reinforce it? He will have succeeded in making you break the no contact. You have already shot down his lies with the person who counts.

If you are playing ping pong with someone and you don’t return the ball…game over. My policy is not to play my ex’s games whenever possible. When I first stared refusing to play, (back when I used to talk to him on the phone,) he panicked. I just kept repeating, “Jxxx”, I’m not going to fight with you”. This ex-Marine, ex-cop panicked and was reduced into actual hysteria. But no matter what he said at that point, I calmly repeated my statement. I’d been with him 13 years and I have never seen his uptight personna break like that.

OMG, it was so empowering and the best thing was I had more respect for myself when it was over.

Now if I absolutely have to respond to something he’s done or said, I do it in writing, (usually email), calmly, cold and clinicly pointing out what I know he’s trying to do and telling it like it really is.

I think they crave the drama and the conflict. I don’t give it to mine. I don’t need it in my world anymore and when you give someone what they are addicted to, you just reinforce their addiction and your position as one of their suppliers. I used to think raging at him made me feel better and made a difference. It never did…it only got me raging and upset and fed his addiction.

It’s a tough decision…Good luck and God Bless you and everyone on this site.


Hi everyone. Just dropping by and will read the posts a little later. I have not heard back from the army regarding punishment for the S. I’m deciding if it’s worth pursuing at this point (continuing to call the captain to find out what is happening). I really just want to move on, but I wonder how I will feel later on down the road if I find out he got away with playing me and defrauding the army. Someone also mentioned that he could have also gotten some information while at my house to steal my identity, too, and now this has me worried a little. I don’t think he was ever in my house alone.

I have not heard from him and have not been around on my internet site to see if he’s still hanging out there (I’m assuming he is). I have some concern about him coming after me when he finds out I turned him in. I may buy some mace just to be on the safe side.

I do have one friend who is a healer that I went to a retreat with this weekend. She believes there is no such thing as “evil”. She calls is “heavy energy” and believes that I just need to call it “evil” for my own healing. It bothers me to have my truth squelched, but I guess she has never dealt with someone like an S before. I think if you haven’t dealt with it, it’s hard to understand.

For henry: The fact that you are even concerned about your ex’s feelings after you left him shows that you are not a sociopath. Besides, you could say the most horrible things in the world to them. It probably doesn’t faze them one way or the other. They’ve probably heard it all before and they deserve it. I would have said the same things to my ex, except that I don’t think he even deserves the satisfaction of knowing my feelings.

Ox Drover

Dear LIG,

Honey, I know that you want to SCREAM AT HIM! SCREAM HERE! RAGE HERE! But do NOT call the fricking liar. Don’t give him the satisfaction of even knowing that you know or care.

Besides, these “friends” are not your friends if they believe such a thing. What did you expect a PSYCHOPATH to do, admit that HE WAS THE LIAR? You know THAT’s NOT GONNA HAPPEN. That is all just his little ploy to place blame on you, and placing blame on others is WHAT THEY DO, WHAT THEY ARE. If you ever wondered if he is a psychopath, now you KNOW HE IS. ((((hugs))))

Ox Drover

Dear Escaped,

I am so sorry you have had such a horrible experience with your X and his family, and that your children are involved as well. They use the children as “clubs” to pound YOU over the head, use them like pawns in a chess game, to sacrifice in order to make you hurt. How low can they go? Of course every time you think you have seen the LOWEST they can go, they suprise you and go EVEN LOWER.

You and your children are in my prayers and thoughts, as are all the LF bloggers, for your peace and comfort. Reading about them, learning about them, and realizing that there is NOTHING you can do to change their natures will help you to realize that there is NOTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY that would have made the slightest difference.

Have as little conversations as you can with them, love your children, and “don’t take it personally”–I know that sounds hard to “not take it personally” because THEY INTEND it personally, but it wouldn’t matter if it was you or someone else, they want CONTROL, they want POWER OVER YOU, and they want YOU TO HURT> It is a big “game” to them scoring points off your head an dheart, using your kids as darts.

As much as you can don’t react, they may actually get worse for a while when they aren’t succeeding in pushing your buttons, but eventually they will lose interest if they don’t see you “react” if they can’t “get a rise” out of you.

Do your “reacting” here—we will understand for sure! Scream here, rant here! Also I suggest that you go to Dr. Leedom’s blog, it has a link from the left side of the page here “blog rolls”–about parenting the at risk child. That should help you keep your cool and realize what is going on with your kids. Your kids need you desperately to be a buffer between them and their father. God bless you, Escaped, and your children as well. ((((hugs)))))


LIG – when I encounter anybody that know’s my X – if they utter his name – I stop them right there and say – I don’t want to know any thing about him – next subject–

Ox Drover

LIG, Henry’s advice is right on! Don’t even listen to them. Don’t discuss it. That’s the HIGH ROAD.


ox, henry, et. al: thanks so much. back on track. i sometimes forget that everything he says to EVERYONE is a lie … not just the crap he said to me. it is still so unbelievable to me.
love you all …


Ox, thanks for your insight regarding my children. I will read the info about at risk children…The more I read the more power I have. I bought a book about at risk children of people with anti social disorders. I really liked your forgiveness article. I do have a hard time forgiving myself for the past with the S. I need to move on and make better choices for the future, because it is brighter than it has ever been before! I have more knowlege, which equals power! I have so many more people who love and care about me than I did when I was married. Sometimes when I think about it I just cry, because it feels so darn good.

My oldest son had a good observation and I am very surprised/proud that he shared it with me. I picked up the kids yesterday from their dad’s and I see that he bought a truck for his new business. He had to start a new business since he lost his job (isn’t that what everyone does?). I knew that he was going to have his fiancee purchase it for him–perhaps an early wedding gift? Anyway, my son said that Dad spends so much money. He said that he is worried or concerned about it. I asked him if he was worried when I spend money and he said, “No, you have a job!” Sometimes I think they don’t see things, but I underestimate them, I guess. I told him to not worry and that his father has to deal with it. I also told him that there is another person in the house that has a job (his fiancee). I left it at that.

While driving home I was smirking and giggling. I kept it to myself. S are creatures of habit aren’t they? The same cycle over and over again. He did the same thing when we were married–buying trucks for businesses or starting new businesses. It is almost like watching a soap opera. Once you watch one for a while the same things happen over and over again–just different points in time and/or different cast of characters!


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