By | March 5, 2010 204 Comments

RESOURCE PERSPECTIVES: Taking the sociopath to the mat

Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.

Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath

By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law

Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide

I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.

I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).

These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.

What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.

Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.

These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.

But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.

Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.

In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?

There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.

It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.

Posted in: Laws and courts

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I wanted to take mine to the mat and it became an obsession for a few years. I did all the homework and investigations and consulted a lawyer. He advised me not to carry on for all the reasons written above and I was completely deflated, angry and frustrated. At the time I thought he was wrong but he actually gave me good advice. I would never have recouped any money as I’m sure it was all spent or spirited away somewhere and the toll it would have taken on me and my family to go to court is too awful to contemplate. I’ve had to somehow come to terms with the fact that he just got away with it. These days, after all the great advice I’ve read here and on other sites I can see that it was better to walk away rather than continuing any kind of contact with that twisted, evil individual.
For anyone thinking of persuing a P, I would only advise them to do it if they had a rock solid case and even then it’s a risk.


Hello all….still here reading, meant to post a few times but lost password and the keys sent were not working. Anyway, life is still pretty ok at the moment, definately thanks to this site. I am different, I am not so naive, gullible, trusting or willing to be treated like a second rate citizen. I even got my sister in law reading here who is going through a bit of a bad time with her husband my brother.
If things get heated now I just withdraw myself and the kids from it, I dont bother pleading for an end or of trying to shame him and appeal to his better nature because I know from bitter experience that is like flogging a dead horse. Hen seems not sure of his self or his ability to get away with his previous shit, I know he is still capable and I dont forget it….nor do I let him if he even looks like starting. I know some day some pretty girl will turn his head, Im not stupid, I know there is a shelf life to our marriage and that at any given moment a new door could open for him in the shape of some naive woman or other, difference is I dont care, yes it be sad, family splitting and marriage ending but it wont be the end of the world as it once would have been, I will ” pull another file” and recall his crueler side and that is what I will think as opposed to the faux lover he pretended to be.
In the meantime getting the debts and house sorted, laying foundations for another life that doesnt revolve around him.
It was advice from here from Oxdrover, Matt and Erin and others I cant recall sorry, that set me on the right track and the brilliant articles here….Oh yea and baggage reclaim!!
Anyway this article was brilliant, rang a few bells for me.


We can’t fight them in court but at least we can expose them to potential victims and I did it. I sent an e-mail to a potential victim that he was trying to lure on the internet. The girl was about to leave her country pact her staff and come to meet him, but my e-mail put her thinking twice and she decided not to” and end up the relationship with him”

Ox Drover

This is a very good article with lots of common sense and the principles and principal involved are sometimes of STAGGERINGLY HUGE proportions.

Many times the one we are fighting has OUR assets, or their own to fight us with and the victim is left destitute of principal and holding desperately on to his/her principles.

Sometimes the victim has given up their principles as well as principal to the abuser, and feels doubly impoverished, or is so emotionally wounded they don’t have the energy to fight it, even if they would or could.

The “crazymaking” done by the psychopath and their dupes is, in many cases, a DELIBERATE attempt to keep the victim so off balance and emotionally depleted that they are unable to successfully take the psycopath to the “mat.”

It is like the the old adage “it is difficult to drain the swamp when you are up to your arse in alligators”—I would add to that, “…and someone sets your pants on fire!”

Thank you for this article! Good sense, and good advice.

Ox Drover

Dear Muldoon,

Glad you are still reading here and that you have a “plan”—you talked about “breaking up the family and the marriage” though, honey, in my opinion, your “marriage” and “family” (that includes HIM) is already BROKEN, but I am glad that you have at least emotionally detached somewhat with him.

You know we are here for you, and I do hope you keep on coming here and reading, because the more we know, the stronger we get. Glad you had your sister-in-law come here too. You are in my prayers and thoughts! (((hugs))))


Took my ex to the mat for my daughters life and won that battle. But the toll is an incredible lesson. As most all victims of these P’s have discovered don’t expect any help from “the system”( law enforcement, d.a’s etc.). I tried with my initial discovery of fraud and was called “stupid” by at least 3 different law enforcement officers. I believed my ex was with law enforcement(she has a genuine badge, gun with well worn holders for each. as well as a message on her answering machine stating the same) therefore I’m stupid. She fraudulently represented (and I believed) she had cancer( has a large lump on the back of her neck) therefore I’m stupid. She faked pregnancy( I witnesssed her take a ept into the bathroom and return and watched as it turned positive in front of my eyes (and I believed) therefore I’m stupid. So when “I took her to the mat” for my daughters life and she made false sex abuse allegations against me I was prepared, (I’m not stupid). I had hidden a small digital recorder and caught her stating “if you try to get custody I’ll say you molested()” as well as many other sociopathic insults and comments. Her ex stated” she threatened to do the same to me”.Bottom line I was prepared as anyone could possibly be in a case where you’re required to dissprove a negative. And still these people who would call me “stupid” would persue 2 first degree felonies against me instantaneously costing me an additional $25,000 dollars,my employment on top of my ever mounting custody case charges. The criminal case was dissmissed at preliminary hearing, imagine that, three words can cost YOU TOO so much. All in all come to discover that these people who would label me as “stupid” for believing everything I did based on physical evidence, are complete “idiots” for believing what they did based only upon words( which we all know don’t mean squat coming from the mouths of these P’s). You see these “idiots” had the advantages of fore-warning. I had all documentation of the cancer, pregnancy, police and other frauds. They themselves((as did I)I’m not stupid) had police reports showing that P is such a pathological liar that even after being convicted of impersonating a police officer. Told a police officer that she was one. But the greatest lesson is that much in the same way they are both immune to prosecution. As my ex would often state”go take me to civil court” . And she’s right,and I still might for the principle. And with all evidence I have I’m sure I can get a judgement. Which I’m sure will be more useful as T.P. than as anything written upon it.I would like to propose “THE DOG LICKING LAW” I am so tired of dealing with these “idiots” doing what they do “because they can”. In closing I’ve saved my daughter and in the grand scheme of things thats the most important battle. I can’t decide what to do about the “war”.


Thank you so much for writing this article…..
As I read your article…..I felt as if I WAS THAT WOMAN you describe…..
I HAD to take the S ‘to the mat’….I DID have the determination, the will, the want and the means and the smarts to do it….AND be successful.
NO… wasn’t easy, YES, I did dedicate several years to it….was it worth it….YESYES>YES!!!!

For several reasons.
I’m not sitting here healing AND destroyed.
I had a point to prove to my children…..You can’t treat people this way and get away with it.
A Sociopathic drug dealer doesn’t live the ‘happy’ life they portray….they lose…… the end…..they lose their family and their assets…..the respect and love they once were given…..all for a portrayal of who they’d like to be, yet NOT work for it….as we are all capable.
I knew it would divert me from my C and stroke situation and I used it to catapult me into strength……I fought for my health and my future….simultaniously.
One helped the other…..

I fought to teach my children…..right is right and wrong is wrong.

The key factor for me…..WE HAD ASSETS…I had something to go after. I HAD to do this…..for our future.
I knew he would cancel my health insurance…..and I knew I was going to need ‘something’ as a backup….if I got sick again.

I wasn’t afraid of dying…..either by him….or my illness.
ONCE I made that decision……it was like a rocket ship was behind me! Dying is a fear we all have…..when I removed that fear…..there was nothing going to stop me!

I had to model to my kids….that it may look bleak…..but we CAN recover and move forward.

I knew about myself…..I knew that if I was sick AND destitute…..wondering where the next meal would come from and how I was going to keep a roof over my head……THAT WOULD KILL ME……so I felt….I had no other choice.

I knew I could attack our assets…..I learned….possession is 99.99% of the law… I kept posession of everything of value….he’d take it….I’d take it back! If ordered by a judge to give it up….I would have…..but it was going to be up to him to remember what I had in my possesion and ask for it…..and that would cost him money to do…..I put HIM in the postion of having to determine if it was ‘worth’ asking a court for….

I continued to be ‘upstanding’ and paid all bills…..went to great lengths to do this…..scared the shit out of me……I maxed out MY CC’s to do this…..
The more I cash advanced…….the more determined to get the assets I was…..
I didn’t do anyting that was ‘nasty’ in the eyes of the court….I didn’t cancel car policies, I didn’t stop paying his CC or cancel them…..I didn’t drain bank accounts…..I froze them.
He did all of the above, as if he was being tricky….I let him believe he was….and didn’t balk or bitch and complain…I let it go….cuz I knew it would haunt him in the end….in court…with the final settlement! He wanted me to bitch and moan….and cry victim…..I NEVER DID. I stuck to factual, harmful evidence…..towards the assets AND our children….I let him think he won some battles…..but there really is a reality between winning them and fantasizing about winning them…..fantasize away homey!
I protected MYself…..

Oh, don’t think I was Mary Poppins……NO, NO…….
I played the Sociopath game, I studied it…and I worked it…..I stepped in and out of Sociopath mode…..but controlled sociopth….I kept a balance. I planted seeds and nurtured them…..I played HIS evil game….but under MY RULES!
THAT was the difference between us….he coulnd’t control it…..I chose to use the sociopaths skills he had taught me….against him!
I counter controlled him…..and I worked within the law. And I used my attorney to do this.

I made decisions that were hard…..I fired 1 firm and one private attorney…..because it was clear they didn’t ‘get’ my plan of opperation of attack. These cases are NOT black and white…..they ARE a chess game. You must KNOW the sociopath and move accordingly. This takes the help of an attorney who ‘get’s it’. Or they won’t do the job required.

Once we appear underhanded….like them…..a judge looks at both sides as ‘equal schmucks’…..and a victim is not heard…..because your now just as bad as him and it’s a scrap. I learned valuable lessons on self control and patience….VALUABLE!!!!

I planted seeds that threw him off balance…..through my attorney……
I requested a deposition…..only to throw him off balance with the conniving questions that I had my attorney ask…..the more he thought he’d been caught….the more off balance he became….the more he tried to hide from HIS attorney….HE didn’t give me credit of having FACTS….not just ‘words’.
He discounted me……and that was a fatal error.

I studied ‘where’ I had come from….and how I got to today…..along with his behaviors…..reactions….actions…..and everything I could……about HIM……
AND I knew how to attack…..I knew he would selectivly disclose things to HIS attorney…..and I created a ‘rif’ between them publicly in the courtroom…….by disclosing the things he hadn’t. Big facts.
I knew how he would portray himself……and I exposed the truth….via facts. Solid, hard, documented facts.
I’ve lived my life having NO skeletons he could expose….and the reward to me, in this situation…….was I didn’t fear anything. He and no one else….’had’ nothing on me.
I continue to live my life this way!
This alone….was a huge factor in counter controlling him…..all the acusations were just hot air… mentally ill I was……show me the money honey…..all the psych wards I had been in….show me the money honey….all the money I drained out of our accounts… me the money honey….
back it up…..or shut up! It’s just smoke….this is what they do…..try to put us and keep us on defense….we must remain on OFFENSE!
He couldn’t…..because it was all his fantasy… was his projections on me…..
I didn’t get caught up in each false ‘fact’ he threw out…..I took the offense…..
With an S….we could defend ourselves till the cows come home…….switch it up…….and go offensive…..and strike with your facts and documentation….don’t participate in his whirlwind, tiring tornado game…..take control! No one likes to hear small time bickering….ears close…’s OUR job to keep interest in the court….from the judge…the final decider…..OR his attorney… our actions and facts and documentation, presentation and organization….
we need our ‘ations’ in order!

In the end……another ‘benefit’ I received from taking the S to the ‘mat’…….was I showed him….I’m no shrinking violet……and if your gonna mess with me…..ya better think twice…..cuz i’ll keep on fighting and eating you for dinner with every step you take! Until I die.
He’s ‘gone away’……but I remain vigilant…..I will lay under the rock waiting to strike him again……when he least expects it…..if I need to…..
BUT……I’m pretty sure…..he’s got my point now!
If he brings it on again……by my actions thus far, I think he knows now……he better have a ‘good one’……
I WILL FOLLOW THROUGH….each and every time!!!!
Don’t jump in the ring unless your gonna remain IN THE RING….until the last bell sounds! Ya gotta stay the long haul.

I do think it’s important for each of us to weigh the costs…..
NO….they will never pay up even if ordered……BUT if we can attack assets….and ‘seize’ them….that would be worth thinking about.
I wouldn’t suggest taking on the fight….just to fight….
there is a price to pay.

BUT……don’t let them intimidate and starve you out of what is rightfully yours!!!


The s would push my facts aside by saying to a judge…..
Judges generally don’t dismiss facts….documented facts…..and this judge told him…..Sir…I can’t even get the police to do what I want…, as much as your wife may enjoy the credit given with her follow through with her claims…..I believe you have no credibility sir!

That has become my mantra……and has provided me many many moments of laughter in the process……each time I ‘win’……my Gf’s say……it’s because EB can get anyone to do anything she wants……

Bottom line…..we can protect ourselves legally, it can be done…..and I encourage anyone with something to ‘gain’ to evaluate the ‘costs vs gain’……

Right is right and wrong is wrong!!!!


Oh yeah…..
It didn’t help him one bit…..when he stated to me….as he left my house one day…..
And I was in treatment for C…..


WTF….what does one do with that statement????

I said to him with a smirk…..

Ox Drover

Dear EB, I still think about that old country and western song called “The Winner” about 2 guys in a bar, an older one talking about being a WINNER to the younger guy who wants to be a WINNER. The older guy points out that he had an ear bitten offr in a fight, but he bit off both the other guy’s ears soo he was THE WINNER, and one eye is gouged out, but he got both the other guy’s eyes, so he was a WINNER, and so on down the line, bones broken, stab wounds, stays in the hospital and so on, but sometimes even if we WIN by putting the psychopath to the mat, we pay such a price in our own pain for doing it that we end up pretty well beaten up.

I think the BENEFIT vs RISK ratio has to be very well studied.

As you and most everyone here know, I have hired an attorney to fight my P-son’s up coming parole hearing, and just in the PREPARATION of that foot-locker full of letters to make some sense out of them that the attorney could understand what they meant (my hard and fast DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE that P-son is a monster of vast proportions who intended to kill me) upset me no end, threw me into a tail spin, or CORRECTION, I LET IT THROW ME INTO A TAIL SPIN. I ALLOWED it to throw me into a stress-filled tail spin. I’m finally out of the tail spin, but even as hard as I tried to keep it LOGICAL, there was STILL (even after all this time) enough emotional baggage there that it did get heavy, just reading over those words again, and actually SEEING for the FIRST time, things I hadn’t even seen before when I was reading those letters in the past. SEEING JUST HOW EVIL my P-son is, more evil than I had seen before. Also, admitting to myself that I had ALLOWED all this evil to flourish right before my eyes and kept on BELIEVING. Maybe I will have gotten a final closure, God, I hope so!!! out of this this time, and hopefully, I can keep him from even going to the parole board again for the next five years–but whether he gets parole (I sincerely doubt it) or whether he gets a 5 year set off, I will survive, knowing I did the BEST I COULD have done to protect myself. FRankly, if I didn’t think my very physical life was at stake, I wouldn’t have done this at all, but since I do know that my life is at stake, I’ll keep on trucking and spend the last dollar I have if it takes that, to hire attorneys to do our best to keep him in prison.


I think there is HUGE value of what we learn about ourselves….going through the process….
I don’t think any one us comes out the other side…..the same…..
I think this is the gift we receive along with the process.

I didn’t want to be sick and destitue……

Sick…..I could only marginally control……destitute I felt control over……

Good going girl…..we gotta do what we gotta do….ya know!


wait a minute…the courts actually care if he lies to the victim in child visitation cases. I didn’t think the courts cared cared about lies, and in fact were often conned themselves by the S. I’ve got TONS of emails with the lies that don’t stop. If that will help me if I ever end up in court, then I would sleep better at night. Didn’t think it helped tho…


Thanks Fred for your insight and advice.


Ya gotta know how to design the case.
You gotta be in charge….and play it carefully.
It does no good to play like we did in nursery school….with ‘tattle tales’…’s about DOCUMENTED ABUSE….
The courts can’t do anything about ‘what ifs’ or ‘potential’ abuses…..
We can’t present this type of case….EVERYTHING HAS TO BE DOCUMENTED….which means the abuse has to have occured.
Courts don’t rule on fears….they rule on facts.
We must balance our childrens safety at all times, along with protecting them legally.
I guess… depends on the lies…..
As my judge said to my kids…..I am NOT in the business of splitting up families……
My kids response: Your NOT……his abuse did.

That statement made a huge impact on the judge….
Along with all the unloading the kids did on her….statements on WHY they want NOTHING to do with their father….
Not that they don’t like his cooking, or he doesn’t let them play video games…….
It was they didn’t like being choked, hit, taken to drug houses, lied to, fed drugs, belittled, shamed, and then portayed as bad kids…..

The courts want to know why a parent is not capable of co-parenting……
THIS was a good example…..NOT coming from me or the S….BUT from the kids own mouths….straight to the judge’s ears……heartfelt and honest, truthful and raw.

I told my kids I couldn’t afford to spend 100’s of thousands fighting for sole custody……given their age…teenagers….BUT…..I couldn’t also MAKE them see their father if the courts decide this was what was to happen……
That was their choice……
It was a strategy… save some $$….because the outcome would be the same….
I made it clear…I understood they wanted nothing to do with him…..and I respected that and thought this was the healthyest way……..but as a financial strategy…..I was goinf to ask for sole custody…..but couldn’t drag it out fiinancially…….we were all on the same page…..
I wouldn’t prevent them from seeing their father…..BUT I also wouldn’t MAKE them see him….if ordered.
It worked….I attained Sole Legal custody of all and it was more of an ‘iincidental’ in the whole divorce process….for me.
I don’t think this is ‘normal’……
He fought harder for the jet ski and cookbooks then his own children…..I wasn’t surprised….the funny thing is….he was awarded the jet ski and cookbooks….AND NEVER CLAIMED THEM… was only the fight to fight….the thrillof the win….
It would have been the same for the kids…..if he was given shared custody…..he knew what he had done to the kids,he knew they wanted nothing to do with him…..he just wanted it as a ‘win’….chalk it up…..nothing to do with a relationship with the kids! NOTHING.
So….guess what…..we now have kindleing cookbooks and a fun jetski to enjoy this summer….together….the kids and ME!
He cooked his own ‘custody’ goose on several occasions…..but his last ditch attempt at a settlement was…..give me 80K and I’ll sign the kids over.
THIS WRITTEN offer was submitted to the judge to ‘review’……
He offered to sell me the kids…..
Hmmmmmm… you think the judge saw something odd in this????? She never commented…..she didn’t need to!
Sometimes things are best left unsaid.

So bird…..don’t give up….at any point….we win some battles, we lose some battles……but if there is concrete abuse…..PROTECT YOUR BABY!!!!
There are lies….then their are relevent lies….we need to present an honest, uncluttered case of abuse to a judge….

No one can tell you something isn’t relevent or not….only you.
I’d keep ALL of them…..because your child is young…..keep everything….and don’t ever give up!!!
And YES…the courts are conned, just like therest of us……this is OUR responsibility to educate the courts on these abusive behaviors….in an organized, concise manner…..WITH FACTS of abuse.

Ox Drover

Dear Bird,

The courts DO in most cases care about how a “father” or “mother” ACTS toward the kids, if The Birdie’s sperm donor is ONLY a sperm donor + lots of lies=NOT a responsible father.

The fact that he has never paid child support is a GOOD indicator, the fact that he left you while you were preg is another TRUTH and FACT…that doesn’t add up to “good father” or father AT ALL in my book.

You KNOW he is NEVER going to BE a good father, and I think if you told him that PAY UP OR NO VISITS that you/Birdie would get NO VISITS, and IN MY BOOK, the further away that psychopath is from the Birdie THE BETTER OFF THE CHILD WILL BE.

In my opinion, you are Still “too nice” and afraid to set some boundaries. You know I love you, Bird, but you also know I “shoot straight”—this guy is NOTHING BUT HOT AIR AND A BAD BAG OF WIND. He wasn’t there for YOU and he won’t be there for BIRDIE either! KICK THIS GUY TO THE CURB, he has no RESPONSIBILITY and therefore in MY MIND,, he has NO RIGHTS to YOUR baby. The Only thing he has “done” for the Baby is to DONATE SPERM and empty promises. He lies to you, what do you think he will do to Birdie! There, my rant is done for the day!!! Love, prayers and ((((hugs))))


Do you have an order for child support in place?

If not….get on it girl…
If so….and I will assume he’s not paying…..then …..get on it girl…..
File the necessary docs to enforce support with the state.
The longer you wait…..the longer you prolong the pain and frustration….
The DA’s office don’t take kindly to deadbeat NON PAYING fathers…..


The following is from the HIGH CONFLICT INSTITUTE’s newsletter:
The website is
Very good information and tips.
I really like their information…..and it applies to child custody or divorcing a S….or toxic or as they refer….a High conflict personality. (HCP)

By Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq.

High-conflict disputes have the same basic characteristics, regardless of whether they’re about a friendship, a small amount of money, or even millions of dollars.

There are at least two people involved:

1. High Conflict Person (HCP): This is someone who constantly gets into conflicts and often behaves badly. They blame others and avoid taking responsibility for their own problems or for changing their own behavior. Instead, they focus on the behavior of others. HCPs aren’t just difficult people—they’re the MOST difficult people, because they’re preoccupied with confronting a Target of Blame, and the Target of Blame could be anyone—even you.

2. Target of Blame (TOB): When an HCP blames another person for problems that are more their own making, I call the wrongly blamed person a Target of Blame. The dispute is not really about the Target, although it looks that way at first. It’s primarily about the person blaming the Target—the HCP.

HCPs seek Targets of Blame. Blaming others helps them feel better about themselves. This pattern of blaming is unconscious, meaning that they are totally unaware that it is a problem and that it is their own problem. HCPs are constantly in distress and blaming others. This helps them unconsciously feel safer and stronger. Yet they are totally unaware of the negative, self-defeating effects of this behavior. In a sense they’re blind.

Since HCPs can’t see the connections between their own behavior and their problems, their difficult behavior continues and their conflicts grow. That’s why they’re called “high-conflict” people.

In some instances, only one person appears to be an HCP. Yet many disputes look like they’re caused by both people in the dispute—at least from the outside. In divorce disputes, some families are referred to as “highconflict families” or “high-conflict couples.” This generalization can be unfair. It creates a situation that treats both people in the dispute as equally at fault for the conflict, even if they’re not. The assumption that both parties to a conflict are always at fault can occur in neighbor disputes, workplace disputes, and other settings. You commonly hear, “They just don’t get along.” “They’re both at fault.” “Why don’t you both just stop fighting.” “Just get over it.” This does a great disservice to those who are caught up in dealing with HCPs through no fault of their own. They may get along fine with most people, but have become Targets of Blame for HCPs.

In many ways, HCPs are similar to addicts. We don’t blame the addict’s spouse for the addict’s addiction. We don’t blame the addict’s arguments on “issues.” The problem is the addiction. With high-conflict cases, the problem is how HCPs create and promote conflict because of their personalities, not what their conflicts are about.

However, in many cases there are two or more HCPs. I researched this question with a law school professor in early 2006. We distributed a survey to all the family lawyers in our county, with 131 attorneys responding. They said they believed 49% of high-conflict cases were driven by just one party (one HCP) and 49% by both parties (two HCPs); 2% were not explained. These lawyers averaged more than 15 years experience in their fields.

So you can’t assume there are two high-conflict people fighting with each other, and you can’t assume that it’s always just one high-conflict person either. This means that you always need to keep an open mind.

In addition, this means that if you believe the other person in a dispute with you is acting badly and is an HCP, you may also be seen as an HCP by those around this conflict. I’ve seen HCPs who eagerly tell everyone that the other person in their dispute has a high-conflict personality, when in fact it is obvious that he or she has a high-conflict personality. They have it backwards. But sometimes it’s not obvious on the surface. You have to be very careful not to act like an HCP when you’re around an HCP, or people might think that you’re an HCP too!


nooo because he isn’t the legal father and I want to keep it that way. Everything I do is to keep it that way, including corresponding with him enough over email to keep him from going after his parental rights because he thinks I am withholding access to the child. He has no rights, and to keep it that way I can’t get an order.

I don’t have any proof that he will smash the childs head in, and therefore if he went after his parental rights I think he would get them.

I am afraid to go no contact even tho it is advised here, because I don’t want him to go after his parental rights. A big part of me wants to go no contact and take the chance that he will not lawyer up and fight me in court for rights. But I am afraid that he will lawyer up for withholding access, and then I will always hate myself for not doing whatever it took to ensure he didn’t lawyer up. At least now if he did I can look myself in the mirror and say that I gave it an honest try to keep him from going for his rights.

This is where I get shaky in my decision because I have advice coming to me from many places, and I am not always sure if I am making the right decisions to protect my child. As of now I am not “no contact” in an effort to protect the child; maintaining no legal rights to the sperm donar which is my ultimate goal.

Ox Drover

Dear Bird,

You know, it would NOT cost you an arm and a leg to go talk to a lawyer about what YOUR rigfhts are and what HIS rights are (given your situation) and then you would KNOW FOR SURE what chances are….

And, consider that “lawyering up” to PAY money for a DNA test (a professional one is NOT cheap, about a thousand bucks I think) AND hiring a lawyer and so on, and to get the DNA test he would have to get the lawyer first and have the court make you do it. Keep in mind, those e mails and allowed visits are TWO WAY STREETS and he can say “well she let me visit so I must be the father”—so, the fact that he WOULD have to PAY 1/4th about of his take home pay to you for child support is a GOOD REASON why he would NOT lawyer up and put himself into a position to maybe go to jail if he does NOT pay—-

Why don’t you pop for a visit with an attorney to know what your RIGHTS in this situation. Since yoiu did NOT put the creep down on the birth certificate, and so on, I think your position (I’m not a lawyer just a nasty old woman!) is good that HE would have to spend a LOT of money for proving that he is the father, then have to PAY FOR THE PRIVILEDGE….which you and I both know is NOT going to happen. All he is going to do is to send hot air “checkis” and they don’t spend very well.

Check it out with a LEGAL SOURCE and then you will KNOW what the right decision is. Right now you are just NOT SURE what the best way to go is. I found the HARD WAY that checking things out with an attorney BEFORE you need an attorney is a good way to do things. I did that last week in fact, only cost me $100 for over an hour of this guy’s time in his office and I got a MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF PEACE OF MIND! (((hugs))))


Had DNA test done for $120 four years ago. Dont need permission or mother, just access to the inside of childs cheek(mouth)

Ox Drover

Dear Hardlesson,

What that a “Professional” one or one of the ones you can buy in a drugstore or order on-line? The online ones are NOT considered “evidence” to my knowledge, but the professional ones are EVIDENCE since they have a doctor or law enforcement official as a 3-rd party witness who is a “disinterested” party.

Also it (the child’s dna) must be compared to the proported parent’s DNA test (also an official one) and then an “expert” witness must testify in court (and they do not do it for free) that they are qualified to compare the two and so on.

My friend’s son had a baby by a girl, and he was satisfied with a “home test job” just to make sure the baby WAS his, but it would NOT have held up in court. So far, no problem with visitation or child support payments, he makes them and the mom lets him and his mom have the baby pretty much when ever they want to. (so far anyway) Plus, his name is on the birth certificate.

There are also Y-DNA tests to to see what male liine you descend from, which is commonly used in geneology circles now in addition to records from census and others to trace male descent. They are fairly cheap and take some of the “guess work’ out of tracing your family tree.

Back when I was in school, I did a rotation in some genetic testing for inherited diseases, etc. and one of the things we ran up against was that about 10% of the perported fathers were NOT the fathers. We had one case where the “father” who was NOT the sperm donor and didn’t know it, the couple had a baby that was a geneticly “bad” baby, and they wanted to know what the chances of them having another one were. The doctors that made the decisions about WHAT TO TELL THEM???? Ended up NOT telling them that “daddy” wasn’t the father (mom might have already had some idea about that!) but just told them that THE ODDS WERE VERY SMALL that they would ever have another child with that inherited disorder. So it was sort of a “half truth” I guess at best.

Of course DNA testing has come a LONG way since those dark days “long ago” when I went to school, and the ability to tell more about it, and also to get it from smaller and smaller samples, has improved a thousand fold.

For evidence though, I think the “chain of custody” must be unbroken though. I did do some worth with this in legal urine samples and so on for drug testing. I had to sign a chain of custody slip and the person I gave it to had to sign that they received it and so on down the line until the results were returned. Supposedly that way there is no doubt that THE sample was taken from THAT person and not accidently or on purpose mixed up with someone else’s, plus the machinery used has to be calibrated daily (at least) and the tech’s certified or licensed as the case may be.

Since generally when someone is asked for a drug-urine screen is NOT watched while they urinate, but the “observer” is outside the stall (they are not allowed to flush the toilet) but many people cheat on these tests in a number of ways, I know one nurse who actually took urine from a patient’s foley catheter bag and INSERTED IT INTO HER OWN BLADDER to void out. There are also ways to keep a “clean” urine sample warm to body temp (which is one of the things tested for) so I don’t like urine samples as reliable since they CAN be faked if the person’s “privacy” is not “violated” and they are not observed giving the sample of theirt OWN urine—hair samples, though, are reliable because the tester cuts them off themselves, from head, arm pit, facial hair, etc. and the drugs show up for MONTHS in hair, not just days like in urine.

But it doesn’t give you instant results and is more costly than urine samples which run about $12 in volume buying.


Don’t recall source of test. I also was not on birth certificate another one of the P’s control tactics. Knowing I had already had a DNA test done paternity was never contested. Knowing the judge in my case I’m sure had the results of my test been contested judge would’ve ordered new tests which ex could pay for. Results would’ve been the same. Not trying to get in big debate about DNA or anything. Just saying you cannot take anything for granted as proven by my story. Just when you think you’ve covered every angle possible the “P” goes and recruits some other sucker and here comes more variables.

Timely article and great to get some input from an attorney who has been there. Thank you LF.

As some of you know I am taking mine to the mat and have been self rep. for the last several months, getting bullied and bashed around and worried about slipping up, plus I am chasing hidden assets, which are damned near impossible to find. BUT. I still have his passport. And brand new evidence which I knew would be there on his computer. I knew he would have to brag and do spreadsheets, and there they are, right down to the cost of the custom built china cabinet.

So now HE has to disprove ME and I know he cannot. My best hope is to grind him down to where he just makes a settlement to be done with me. He is soon to be 70 years old, and I am pretty sure I am keeping him from doing what he wants.

And last week found an angel of a lawyer who will stand up for me. Plus she is a former crimminal prosecutor. I told her straight out in my consultation that we are dealing with a P. By the time our session ended I truly believe she got it.

And yes Erin , document, document, document. And I couldn’t agree with you more about the kids, and the example we set. When I recently was discouraged, I too realized that part of the fight was about principles that I must defend for myself, and for my kids.

My lawyer asked me what kind of help I want from her, and I gave an answer, but I should have said, “my dignity back”.

There is nothing wrong with living frugally, or with being poor for that matter, but not the enforced poverty of a greedy abuser. That was my 27 years of hard effort and achievement that he devastated and raped.

If not for some of the great sharing and insights on this site I do not believe I would be where I am today.

But I think I have him in a box. The kind they used in the Spanish Inquisition, with metal spikes on the inside, and a tightening gear on the outside . : )

They are not invincible. Don’t accept being a victim for a final time, unless there is nothing to be gained. But yes, the costs are huge, financial and emotional, time and nerves.

I will be happy to get my life back, with my head high.
Peace and love to all,

Ox Drover

Dear Hardlesson, Yea, you are right “when yhou think you’ve covered every angle possible the P goes and recruits some other sucker and here comes more variables” !!!!!! You are RIGHT ON THERE, FOR SURE!!!! I didn’t realize before I started doing those drug tests just how CRAFTY some of these people can be….anyway to CHEAT and get by with it.

Because I didn’t protect myself the way I should, my Ps got WAY too much information that they used against me.

At least your home test convinced her she would lose in court and so she gave in on that part. Doesn’t make it easy for you to co-parent with a P though as they know that you CARE and they use THAT VERY THING to turn the caring and the child into a weapon to use against YOU and of course that damages the child in the process. Plus, the child has the down side of a P parent (at least one P) so I feel for you, Hardlesson. I am at least glad that you are a responsible parent and so your child has ONE good parent at least! That is a plus!

I can’t even imagine the frustration a co-parent must feel dealing with these monsters. It prevents Total NC which is bad enough, but loving anyone else who is in the control of a P has to be heart breaking. My prayers for you Hardlesson, and unfortunately, I learned my lessons the HARD WAY too! I think most of us have. Glad you are here though, as there is another male point of view on this blog and I think that is a GOOD THING.

Ox Drover

Dear Anitasee,

I think we were posting over each other! Glad things are going your way finally.

A lovely former poster here, New Lily, who is now deceased, fought with her X of nearly 50 years, for any portion of their shared estate, and got poverty instead….and her kids turned their back on her as well…very much like their father, I think, or at the least are duped by him and their mother smeared by him.

Good for you, and if nothing else, maybe you can get your dignity back intact. Glad you found someone to help you!

Thanks Oxy. We all give each other strength.

as follow up to Erin, and this thread about principle, the epiphany I had the other day was exactly that. Staying in the fight on pricinple. Because, in recent years I have struggled to find a way to make a difference on other issues (activism, etc) and other than a march or a protest, it is hard to find the right place, people, group or movement behind which to put your shoulder to the wheel. And several years of doing so taught me that even the activist groups are largely co-opted by the “system”. (Profits over people etc)

And while agonizing about the “costs” of taking my P to the mat, I suddenly realized, if I cannot stand up to this one P, this one abuser, this one who took so much from me,this one, that I married and slept with and had children with, who I nursed through several grave illnesses, and supported and was loyal to, then how can I ever stand up to any one? Or march or protest or write or speak? If I did not stand up to this one?

And of course like Bette Midler is fond of saying “f’em if he can’t take a joke”

Towanda all, A


I hear the practical perspective that you bring to the blog.
And to be perfectly honest, I hope this never happens to your family and you never have to say this yourself or to them.

My experience with the legal system around this issue is that is is at my expense of time and effort to do pursue what it right. And that the system is set up to fight me from obtaining information, advice or assistance without some attorney getting fees in advance and I’m pretty disgusted with it.

I was appalled that the first question to me was will you take him back and take responsibility for a *.*head who already skipped parole once, but we don’t have to tell you anything about the case. My second disgusting experience was with a Federal Parole officer who would initimate I’d married a bigamist but not be forthcoming about what was in their files.
The system is inward facing and has nothing to offer the victim who if we can’t pay, can’t get freed of them.

I wonder how many women there are in the country right now who have men like this in their homes and lives because they can’t come up with a retainer and the profession insists that fees be paid before work is done.

It disgusts me that the service community in general including private investigators, counselors and lawyers are in general much better at setting their boundaries around their hours and fees and schedules than they are at providing real help in real time to people who need it. Where do I go with a complaint? Andf what if it is a SPATH Bigamist and we only know the tip of the iceberg now? At my expense? So lawyers can make money and PI’s can tell me that if we spend more money maybe? I’ve got too much invested without hope of recovery as it is.

From the perspective of lovefraud, I’d like to see a blog column that gives real references to providers who get the work done and make a difference in the lives of people who have victimized.

It takes a compelling sense of ethic and integrity and the willingness to give information and advice for any of these professions to claim that they serve this population. I know. I paid two Pi’s a lawyer and 8 websites and I still can’t tell the whole story. I’m starving but everybody else is going home at 5 pm and to tell you the truth, this is where I find that I can focus the anger I feel for the experience because the service I have been getting has not given result and it is enough to fry anyone’s sensibilities to say the way to follow through on the right thing is to pay more and get what is going to amount to the same sloppy performances which come from the pragmatic attitude that its my problem alone.

It isn’t. And for all the families who have children it isn’t and where there are children and the potential to make more, then our whole society has a problem.

Perhaps it takes a commitment to being of service.
Maybe the Bar Association and Associations for Family and Marriage Law should fund the development of a website that provides accurate background checking for a nomimal fee from this site and maybe it should sponsor some banner ads on dating web sites.

One potent inititative would to be to campaign to make it so that the DA becomes responsible for taking bigamists to the mat – not the women they betrayed although in some cases that could be class action suits. Prosecuting bigamists is a pretty definite way to get Spaths off the streets because they do it with alarming regularity.

Lets not forget also the crying need for National Marriage and Divorce Databases because no normal person can count on what you can find with out that!

Looking at it from a business perspective, every woman or man on this blog is a potential legal client for someone.

I believe to the marrow of my bones that any attorney, any law school, anyone in the legal/justice profession who thinks its ok to sit back and see who will bring them the research and pay their fees needs to understand that the GENE POOL is as worthy of protection in this country as the water we drink or the air we breathe and that it is both negligent and lazy to not to be an advocate for this community.

Many activist groups are so in business for the purposee of staying nin business and not results that I clearly see there to be a need for groups to come to being with the potency to get things done. And I see the bottleneck in the profession just as you described. There is a Pro Bono opportunity here and after working with tireless and impassioned envrionmental attornies in the west, I think there is a standard set and a torch lit that the Marriage and Family Law folks could step up and get behind.

May God keep and protect you and your family from the shadow of these Dark Angels. All of us here are very, very lucky. We’re still alive.

Ox Drover

Dear Silvermoon,

I share your frustration, and so do many others, lawyers, DAs and cops included. There are so many crimes that are considered “worse” than bigamy that the violent crimes, sex crimes, murder, etc. are difficult to prosecute, and are allowed to plead down to a lesser crime in exchange for a gulty plea and no trial (which takes time and is expensive).

States are reeling with the cost of incarceration and the cost of parole officers, and yet the threats that they are letting violent people out on the streets again.

I DO see both sides of the story, and I have been on YOUR end of the stick, suffering because either the law couldn’t do anything to PREVENT a crime, and having thrice-convicted child molesters out of parole in zip time, and his “level” of offense decreased because he is in this state and his crimes were in another state! UGH!!!!!

I have written and called parole boards and threatened to be on the capitol steps screaming their names if they ILLEGALLY released them which they WERE going to do until my threats,but he still got out 5 months later, and when he violated his no-contact order, his parole officer didn’t even know he was a SEX OFFENDER!

I’ve been through it, and am now PAYING to hire an attorney to keep my own son in prison instead of him getting out on parole after killing a 17 year old woman in cold blood….it seems that murder isn’t much of a “crime” any more!

Attorneys and PIs can’t work for free I know, and it is hard to scrape up the money to pay them. I do think in some cases the amount of money they charge is outrageous, but physicians don’t work for free either, and neither do nurses or teachers and therapists —so I don’t expect them to work for free, but I DO wish our court system were more “user friendly” than it is.

Yes, we ARE fortunate to be alive, and I nearly didn’t make that cut, and neither did my son C, he actually faced down the barrel of the gun, I ran before they pulled the gun! I have no doubt if my P-son can manage it, he will send another of his convict friends after me but I will NOT live in terror any more, I’ll live my life and the worst he can do is to kill me, but I have made arrangements to have an attorney at his every parole hearing until he is 75! He will at least have to spend his money in the prison commissary. That may be the best I can do.

Whatever happens, though, I know I cna’t go on being angry about this, bitter about this, and living my life in TERROR and FRUSTRATION, I’ve got to work to make MY life good, and enjoy my life—whatever else goes on in this world! ((((hugs))) and God bless you.


Attorneys actually can work for free- Its called Prpo Bono and they can do it for charitable causes.

What I am suggesting is advacacy on behalf of this community by the professionals whose clients WE are to work with us to get some resources in place which could help us and will help others.

It is absolutely reasonable to petition their licensing and professional organizations to help fund and work to provide resources that help people find out about spaths before they do harm and to put information about those resources on the sites that they use.

I do hear what you are saying and in fact I thought of you when I wrote that.

They don’t have to work on each case for free and I do not advocate that. However, the community which has affected us, affects society at large and is not only capable, but inclined toward activities that creat more of them thus increasing the potential population with that characteristic is they are allowed the freedom to continue to behave that way.

We represent a small population of people affected and women with the means to pursue thsese guys.

I think it is a dishonor to those of us who suport the service professions as cllients not to see some percentage of that revenue turned into advocacy and resources. In fact, its good business because it makes the providers more accessible to the folks who are out there being affected who don’t know what hit them, where to go andwhat to do.

And the resources that are available online for free or low cost which are reliable take a llot of work and some bad experience to find.

By no means am I hung up on this, but I feel strongly to leave this conversation at the place where we agree politely that if we, the victims aren’t willing to take inordinate amounts of time and further invest in the SPATHS by taking them to task, the system and the professionals aren’t going to do much either -especially considering the relationship to the physical violence statistics elsewhere posted on the site.

They cost every one and the expense is great.

I hope that I don’t seem reactively angry, my intent is to take a proactive posture in responding to the situation and if I feel anger in it all, it is really directed at resources who took money and produced pathetic results on which I based decisions having trusted the information which was provided.

And then finding out that if I had a few WEEKS with nothing else to do, I could do better. Its not funny. especially when stories like yours can be told.

In fact, the whole thing screams for advocacy and who better to apeal to for it than the service professions that depend on our experiences to make their living.

The way I see it, what’s right is right. Its an issue of business ethics.


The legal system has to balance fairness and privacy- I respect that, but it is created with the purpose and intention of protecting citizens who do not violate the laws of the land from those who do.

Complacency is no part of that work.

The system which is so inward facing that it loses track of the bigger picture should be subjected to the reality of what happens when they don’t and held to account for it.

Those organizations and individuals who do go out of their way should be rewarded and acknowledged for it.

There is no way to know the difference until you have had a bad experience with the system and that is just foul.

If we pay our taxes, its also wrong.

For the people is one of the key reasons for it to even exists.

We are they. We are here and what is available to us before and after the fact is not enough. Not with the tools and resources we have in this day and going forward to Web 2.0.

I don’t buy it that this may be the way it has always been. Better is possible. And had it been so, the stories on this blog might read differently. That in itself a worthwhile goal.

I think over and over about those statistics. I think over and over about if I wasn’t alone and didn’t know it, how many others there must be.

I have seen what it looks like when people who care a lot take on a cause and I think this one is as worthwhile as protecting ground water. I really do.

Live in terror? Nope. Get resources and get busy? You bet. But, I won’t forget what went wrong because disasters are rarely single events – they are usually cumulative failures.

And small failures can be resolved if we take the time and trouble to see what they are. The access to information, the quality of information and the education to inform what exists and where to find it could be vastly improved. Vastly.

The ethic which would compel any one to make that step appear to me to be visible in stories like yours.
You are an Icon ox.

Thank you for your insight, wisdom and experience.


Thankyou for sharing your experiences Fred.

This is very encouraging. I do believe these guys under-estimation of others is their very downfall.

Time to slay the dragon!


Yyou said ‘And while agonizing about the “costs” of taking my P to the mat, I suddenly realized, if I cannot stand up to this one P, this one abuser, this one who took so much from me,this one, that I married and slept with and had children with, who I nursed through several grave illnesses, and supported and was loyal to, then how can I ever stand up to any one? Or march or protest or write or speak? If I did not stand up to this one?’

i think you really have something here. i think it’s about coming into a fundamental core belief in ourselves and what is right, standing for it and then we have it – and we can take it into everything we do, and change the world. Brava!

Ox Drover

Guys, I agree it would be nice if more attorneys were willing to do pro bono work, and doctors and nurses, and every professioon, but unfortunately, not too many do.

I have know some of each of people in those professions who did or do pro bono work, and Ii got the clinic where I worke to allow me to do pro bono clinic visits for women from the DV shelter and their children, but it is never enough to cover all the needs of those that ARE in need.

Some guy has been running 1-2 day free medical clinics in various cities, and we have two little church-backed free clinics in our area, but it is never enough to meet the need.

There was also the free flu vaccine clinics this year (gov’t paid I think) where you could drive through, if you had insurance, great, if you had none, that was great too, everyone that wanted a shot got them.

I think the BIGGEST thing we need is not just a single attorney to sit down with us, but attorneys that will give regular seminars and EDUCATE people about the laws. How to workk them, how to find them, which public officials to talk to when we need someone prosecuted for a crime against us.

Legal seminars on “family” law and “criminal law” so that we (public) would know in advance some of the basic things we need to know.

MY high school had a course called “Business Law” and I still have and refer to the book quite often. Basic things, like what is a “tort” vs what is a “crime.”

After my husband’s death (the airplane he was in crashed in a neighbor’s pasture) the neighbor (a nut case or a P or both) sued me for $50K because my husband “tresspassed” on his land and “upset him so badly he needed money to make him feell better!” Fortunately, I live in a rural community where he was literally SHUNNED for such a thing!

The attorney for the aircraft liability fought the case, and the nut job didn’t get anything for “damages” and the deposition he gave is the funniest thing you have ever read,, ought to be an example some where. Fortunately, I had insurance to cover the cost of defending this case.

Part of OUR (victim’s) problems too is that WHEN ALL THIS IS GOING ON, “we” are not at our best intellectually or emotionally in order to cope with this mess and we need someone we can trust to guide us through an unfamiliar system. I know there were times (several of them lasting months each) in which I was like a melted piece of wax, taking whatever shape one day and when the heat got turned up again, assuming another one as a result. No two days or weeks alike—just melt down. Hard to function in that way. Hard to make GOOD decisions, though I did manage to make some plans and carry them out with God’s help, many of the decisions and plans I made were not wise ones or the best ones I could make.

Being under BIG STRESS is b ad enough but when you have been under BIG STRESS for A LONG TIME, many times we are just “worn out” mentally, emotionally, physically and financially, to the point it is difficult to function. I know I sure was. I did hire an attorney in order to try to get the Trojan Horse out of my egg donor’s home and it worked for a few weeks with her PROMISE (should have been in writing!) to not let him back in, but she did. So I realized she would LIE to my face in front of WITNESSES, and that was when I took off! (good decision) Because she had more liquid cash resources than I do (or did at that time) I also realized that she could pauper me and I might not win anyway. I also realized that at that point though I had already spent $5,000 on an attorney, plus court costs, that there wasn’t any way I was obligated pauper myself to try to save her from HERSELF. She wasn’t senile, our of her head, she was SELFISH, SELF CENTERED and PUNISHING ME for not going along with her program of enabling my P-son. My other son C was also duped, and I knew his P-then-wife hated my guts as well as my P-son, so I quit trying to save her from herself and her protectors (the Ps)

I started toward taking care of myself for I guess the first time in my life, putting my needs first.

But, at the same time, I don’t feel I lost by making that choice. I think sometimes it is better to walk away, and that was the time. Other times it makes a big difference if you fight, even if you lose, you win.

I do think our family courts would be better if each party had to represent themselves rather than with attorneys—but courts, judges, etc are all attorneys, so tey are not going to want to put their fellows out of a job. It would almost be like doctors settiing up a “self serve medical clinic” where the patient could walk in and get the supplies he needed to diagnose and treat his own illness. I agree the self serve medical clinic isn’t a good idea, but at the same time, there are many things that could be “self served” in the legal profession. Like the small claims court system, which works very very well here. I think I have gotten justice every time I have been there. (several times)

Too many times I think, probate attorneys and divorce attorneys don’t really try to settle it, but keep the parties fighting and lining their pockets. The attorneys end up getting most of the estate for themselves or marital assets go up in lawyers fees.

Historically, in America, civil cases would be brought before the local courts without attorneys, or with minimal attorney intervention and were decided by a jury as well as a judge.

It would be nice if we could go back to that way of doing things. The law has now become so complex on many fields that it is almost impossible for a non-attorney to function in the courts. It is especially bad if the attorney/partner is the one with the money and knowledge and the spouse is the one without money or knowledge. I know of one case of that here on LF and the wife has lost custody of her son to his step father as well as most of her assets. David fighting The Giant with a sling shot doesn’t win except in the Bible story most of the time, unfortunately. I wish we could change that!

Even if you do get a judgment against a dead beat, the court does not trace down the assets for you to seize, YOU have to do that. I have a wind chime haning on my back deck. You can get one just like it at WalMart for less than $5 but I paid $3,500.00 for it. It was the only thing worth keeping out of my rental house that a renter/con man screwed me out of $2,500 rent and $1,000 in legal fees to get him out. He gave phony references, paid the deposit and 1 month’s rent, moved in and never gave me another dime. Had done, I found out, the same thing 3 times in the last year, essentially living rent free. I got the judgment, but never collected on it except for the wind chime. So I figure I PAID $3,500 for that wind chime. GREAT DEAL you got there Oxy! NOT!


Well, its clear there is work and like with so many truly worthwhile causes (and I find groundwater to be one of them), the issue is money, people and time to do something.

We have to believe God’s timing is perfect and when it is such that more can be done about this, it will be so.

Take care of that wind chime! You know, the Feng Shui folks say that wind chimes can be good protection against bad energy coming into your house.

It may be worth every penny if that is so!


Ox Drover

Yea, I kept that wind chime to remind me with its very nice tone, BTW, that there ARE people like that in the world. I should have done a survey for that creep! I think he qualified. He sure felt entitled to live in my rental house for FREE and he even counter sued me because as a condition of letting him move in, he had to get rid of his male cat! Ive heard the “Oh, he doesn’t spray, he’s been neutered” line before and had to GUT the smaller rental property to get the stench out! LOL

Mostly I got good renters, but my late husband picked most of the real NUT cases that one way or another caused problems. I am SOOOOO glad I sold those properties just before the RE market hit the skids, or I might still be dealing with them. I sold them mostly as a way to REDUCE STRESS for me and my Son D so we didn’t have to deal with ONE more stressful thing. Good decision. I sold my cow herd and stopped selling meat too—managed to get good placement homes for my brood cows, and kept my 3 pet cows (former show heifers that are halter broken and very gentle) to just watch as my therapy! Or pet. They are Scottish Highland cattle and have long shaggy hair like a yak, and long SHARP horns as well, but are sweet hearts! Great for Pet therapy for me!

Yea, I like my wind chime and it REMINDS me to BE CAREFUL every time the wind blows, either with a light breeze with music, or with a big wind with a CLANG! Either way is beneficial to me.


Hi all!

Busy packing to move and start my new job on Monday. Excited but overwhelmed. I feel like somebody has played 52 pickup with my life — but, in a good way, not the way my S-ex did.


You S-ex could be toeing the line with his newest victim — in other words, he is playing the good boy while he gets what he wants out of her. But, dollars to donuts, or any odds you want to give I’ll cover, the minute, and I mean the minute she doesn’t produce, he will be moving on to his next victim and leave her scratching her head and wondering WTF happened to me?

That said, when you make it too expensive and too dangerous for them to fuck with you or your loved ones, or have the ability to expose them for all the world to see, then I think you can keep them at bay. But throw in the towel? I’m not naive enough to believe that they ever do that. There have been too many people on this site who have reported that their S-ex has struck back at them YEARS after the fact.

So, I’d still keep a wary eye in his direction, sweetie.

Ox Drover

Dear Banana,

Sweetie, WHICH PART OF THEY NEVER CHANGE do you NOT GET!??????? BOINK!!! (with the rubber cyber skillet this time!) ha ha

He may pretend to be nice to anyone to get what he wants. Do you even REMEMBER when he was NICE TO YOU? Of course you do. But when he had you solidly HOOKED, the crap started, right?

This will be SAME SONG, SECOND VERSE—as long as he needs something from her he will be NICE, but when she catchs on that he is a liar and confronts him, the will lie more and eventually start abusing her too.

WE know how their relationship will MORPH, it will morph just like his and yours did. Hopefully, he will lose interest in you, because you make it too hard for him to succeed, but right now THEY HAVE A COMMON ENEMY and it is YOU… the old saying about “One who hates my enemy is my friend” but you know, that kind of “friendship” doesn’t hold up forever.

So you quit’yer doubtin’ ! RAT NOW! (that’s my Southern Accent) ((((hugs))))

Ox Drover

Dear Matt!!!

GOOD LUCK, and great mojo on your first day of work! ((hugs))))


Do they ever throw in the towel? At being a spath?If he is a spath?

No I dont think so.

He may cheat and try to hide it better, or just bump her off when she finds out. IMHO a spath doesnt change its spots.

I think none of us ever really do change with the ‘basic’ stuff, we can moderate our behaviours; become happier,less self destructive, more content with ourselves, work through anger towards others, learn to see other’s point of view, have an ah-ha’, learn to be less selfish,more thoughtful, recover from depression, stop smoking/drinking… whatever unhealthy side roads we found ourselves traveling down we all have our ‘base level’ (maybe we are born with it) … what is a sociopaths basic stuff?

sorry for jumping in;S



Please check in and let us know how you like the new job.
Remember, we are your internet friends, so we are coming with you! 🙂

I’m happy & excited for you, Matt.
“Break a leg”….I think that works anywhere, not just on Broadway.



I read something recently about the dynamic that occurs when a S/P/N moves on to their next “relationship”.

It’s basically all about the hate they carry within themselves.

“This hatred, projected onto someone else, provides the abuser with a defense against what could be more serious psychotic symptoms. It’s also a way, while establishing a new relationship, to defend himself against any unconscious hate he may harbor toward the most recent partner. By focusing the hate on her predecessor (that would be YOU, Banana), one can ascibe every virtue to the new partner. When the “hated” victim realizes that she is a sacrificial pawn in reinforcing the latest relationship, she feels trapped and manipulated yet again.”
~Stalking the Soul, page 117

I think what it’s saying is that these varmints are all full of hate and they project it back onto their ex, so they can keep lovebombing with their new partner.
But, there’s plenty of hate waiting for the new partner, too.
They just are not ready to unleash it yet.

I hope that makes a lot of the ladies on here feel a little better when they run into their ex, and he’s out with the “new” girl.
The new girl is NOT going to get better treatment than you did.
She will get the same, or worse.

But, it also explains why we feel so badly when we see him out having a great time after the break-up.
It seems that’s also part of their sick plan.


I believe Mr. Matt is starting the new gig on Monday…..


Yes, I heard that, as well.

I want to nominate Matt for something…..Most Inspiring LF Member???
Something….I can’t put my finger on it right now…..It will come to me.

Ox Drover

Hey, Rosa, how about we give him a “golden skillet award so that he can BOINK all his opponents ikn court and WIN every case!

BTW Matt, what kind of law do you practice anyway? What’s yer special niche! I still think you sould do family law! I hope now that YOU will be in DC that the population improves, at least there will BE ONE HONEST LAWYER in the city! ROTFLMAO


So guys,

Help check me out here-

So he left the computer up on his my space page when the marshals hauled him off to jail.

Then he called with the password to his email and som excuse about me going there and I saw what was going on.

The next thing is please take a list of contacts from the cell phone which is where all the body part photos are from his many admirers.

Sounds to me like this is his game. Like this is a discard phase and that the deal is I am supposed to see all this stuff and then go to him for explanation because there is more here than meets the eye because he loves me so much?

That none of the information I can see is true unless it came from him?

I don’t understand why he wants the cell phone numbers so badly if he can’t call me because there is no money in the account so somebody is paying for his phone calls from jail.

If there is more than a little psycho drama going on here, How would I clue into it?

Help me out with a where are we in his game eval?

Ox Drover

Dear Silvermoon,

Henry put his X’s cell phone in the microwave. I think it was 8 seconds.

Whatever it is he wants (lists or whatever) I would be sure he did NOT get them UNLESS you want to give them to the DA as EVIDENCE of a crime. (*Kiddy porn or anything like that will get him some federal time just for possessing it.)

I think he is wanting to contact some of these women (as supply) to ask for money for phone calls, bail or whatever.

As I understand it prisoners can only call from jail either collect or on some kind of prepaid card…well, do not answer his calls. NC. What you do with his coomputer or any thing else that was ABANDONED at your house is up to you, I would think. He isn’t renting storage from you is he?

What was he arrested for and hauled off from your house for? I mean the CRIME he committed that will get him six whole months! I can’t remember if you said (CRS)

Of course there is DRAMA there and JAIL is a lot worse than prison in many ways according to folks who “know”—just nothing much to do and lots of not so nice guys in there with you all jostling for “space” and “power” so I imagine he is pretty well scared chitless. My son was more severely beaten in jail than in prison where the handling is done a bit differently. So your X may be freaking his head off in there, I ijmagine he is unless he is some BIG TOUGH BIKER DUDE that looks tough enough no one will bother him.

That ought to give you some satisfaction at least. Without his list of phone numbers he is dead in the water….if he ain’t got ’em memorized and doesn’t have anyoone to send him $$$ he is SOL!



Well, I am only waiting to find out what to do with his stuff. I am warned that I could be sued for destruction or loss but am finding out that no one seems to have any responsibility to come and get it either.

Not backing up on the NC at all. And it makes sense that he is looking for someone to fill the void.

He got hauled out on a parole violation. As I understand it, there is earlier history, I just don’t know what it is right now. It looks like he had to have been stupid before 1995 to be eligible for parole at all. So whatever was going on it had a statute of limitations longer than seven years. This and his whole history turned out to be news to me along with the other women!

I was just curious about whether what I am seeing is the devaluation activity that people were talking about?

Freaking his head off? Hmm That would be normal. I don’t think that is what we are dealing with. Walk in the Park he called it.

It just popped into my head that he’d left a lot behind and that by leaving his advertisement as a single guy in plain sight for me when he left the house that morning and writing to ask for the cell numbers were just too obvious. I was appalled by what is in those pics. And from so many different ones! They were all invitations for sure.

Like it was planned and spiteful.

I suspect that if he thought he could get money and attention from somewhere else he has done it because he was getting a great deal of attention right under MY nose. I doubt he’d be dependent on me now.

All he got from me was served to end our supposed legal relationship.

I have no idea what he might be up to and I don’t know if I should be worried or if anyone else might be interested?

Ox Drover

Silvermoon, I was just curious what his CRIME was (the original one besides parole violation) Most states don’t WANT to violate someone unless they are totally a throw off cause they have to put them back inside, have a revocation hearing and generate a lot of paper work as well as have to find another prison bed.

States are catching financial lhell right now because of prison over crowding though prison pops are at an all time record high in number sand percentage of population. They are trying to release more but are releasxing too many VIOLENT offenders.

I am working right now to get my P-son’s parole review NIXed again and a 5 year set off (before he will come up for another review) He has a “life” sentence but it was before 1996 so he got reviewed at 15 years, given a 4 year set off, so Jan of 2011 will be his 4 year review. I’m learning all about paroles and what they are looking for to release an inmate. I think there is little chance that he will get out, ,and have hopes that he will get a 4 or 5 year set off, though my egg donor is hiring him an attorney to try to present a postive face on his incarceration though he has been frequently violent with other inmates, smuggled in contraband, spent lots of time in solitary and has been diagnosed as ASPD.

Just the “shock value” of the inmate’s mother hiring an attorney to try to get his parole NIXed is probably going to be a BIG factor itself. Plus, I hired the BEST attorney at this parole thing (though he is usually on the other side of the blanket).

I hope your P spends as much time inside as possible, and I would find out what the laws are in your state and city about “stored” goods and when they can be disposed of and how. I know you are not required to keep someone’s STUFF forever for free taking up your space.


Hi everyone. I’m a newbe here, this being my first post. I’ve been reading the information on this website for a while now, and I have to say “Thank you”.

I’m a 50 years old woman, the youngest of 7 kids. My oldest sister “M” matches nearly every item on the list of sociopathic traits. My parents, siblings and I have spent our whole lives trying to understand her. Your tag “no heart, no conscience, no remorse” has been used by all of us to describe her thousands of times.

My childhood memories are predominantly painful. Surfaced by “M”‘s accounting that I was the “Mistake”, never wanted. The baby who nearly killed her mother. Her burdon. She was “forced to care for (me)”, because my mother only wanted 6 kids. I was made to feel guilty for having been born.

She was equally abusive to my other siblings, always critical, quick to point out and dwell on our weaknesses & shortcomings. Beyond the typical “kid stuff” of teasing and name calling. Her abuse was always cruel and she seemed to enjoy it. But what always stood out to me, was her abuse of my mother.

At a very young age, I remember making a conscious decision to hold my sister (M) as an example for me. She was my example of what NOT to be. Everything about her seemed wronge. When I believed in such things, I often thought of her as “the devil”. She brought so much chaos, pain, and unrest into my family. I could not wait for the day I would finish High school, so I could move far away. I did so 12 days after graduation.

In spite of my best efforts, “M” still affects my life. I live more than 1200 miles from her. Five of my other siblings still live near her, and our parents’ home. “M” has spent her life manipulating, lying, cheating and making every effort to destroy the very fabric of our family. Any time there is strife in our family, she is at the core of it.

My Dad died ten year ago, which gave “M” Cart Blanche in the abuse department. Dad was the one to call her out on her crap. While the rest of us rolled our eyes with the tellings of her rediculous stories, lies, and cons. Dad would challange her. He’d call her out when she was abusive, especially to my mom. But since his passing things have gotten much worse.

My mother is 91 years old, and still pretty sharp. But for as long as I can recall, “M” would have her think she’s the stupidest person to ever walk the Earth. (My mom was a lieutenant commander in the US Navy, during WW2, and a registered nurse). “M” has always seemed to enjoy making my mom cry, feel like a failure as a mother, and a “dingbat”. In fact, I have never heard “M” even offer the respect of calling her “Mom” or mother, etc. she has always used a slang or insulting tag to address her.

While I can’t get into the full or recent history of her evil doings, in this first posting, I hope to find solice by sharing my experiences and perspective of this Horrible excuse for a human being. I hope to shed my own guilt, for harboring such feelings af hatred and distane for my own sister. For so many times she has made me question my own sanity, my own memory, my own moral compass, while emotionally torturing my mother and one of my sisters (and her children). I want to tell the world “I hate M”, and not feel guilty about it!

So thank you for this website, this blog, and the sense of enlightenment I have felt in reviewing the contents posted here. I am not alone!


Ox, I am told something about fraud and firearms – I am still waiting for a report that might give me the detail information.

I know he had prior convictions before then because the last round had to do with posession of firearms by a felon, but right now I don’t know what. The parole was Federal.

Its unerving not to be able to put the pieces together but the whole story is not easily available.

As I understand it, were the situation to be so that there are concurrent wives, it would be up to us to pursue the prosecution in taking the action and bearing the expense for such action. And if we (or I) were to do so this man might have a longer visit. That may not be feasible.

Today, I am the mercy of the services I have hired and as of this time, know no more than that.

Ox Drover

Dear No.7,

Welcome to LF and glad you are here, but sorry that you NEED TO BE HERE, but it is a good place to be if you must come here! If that makes any sense! It has saved my life.

I am the mother of a psychopathic son, and I feel for your mother and also for you and your sibs.

The fact that she is your sister doesn’t make her any less entitled to your respect or consideration. She is a DEVIL, you are right there. I am not sure how your family dynamics are but obviously she is still there making trouble. That is part of the things that we hate about these people is the trouble they make for those people we love and we essentially stand helplessly by, unable to do anythingn about it. I don’t doubt that you hate her, or doubt that you have plenty of reason to.

Stay around here and read and read and read some more, learn about HER and WHAT she IS, but also learn about yourself and the dynamics of the family. Obviously if you escaped, you have a good head on your shoulders and are strong. Put that good head and that strength to work for yourself and your other family if you can do it, but PUT YOURSELF FIRST! God bless you and your mom.

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