By | March 4, 2010 367 Comments

The sociopath’s pseudo insightfulness and sensitivity

Sociopaths who posture as insightful and self-aware are some of the most dangerous predators around.

When I use the terms pseudo insightful and pseudo sensitive, I’m referring to the sociopath’s manipulative efforts to seem some combination of vulnerable, self-aware, sensitive and compassionate.

For some sociopaths this deception is conscious, while for others it is so seamlessly woven into their modus operandi as to feel (for them), at least in the moment, almost authentic.

Even the normal individual, low in sociopathic traits, may struggle to distinguish his deception from authenticity when finding himself “performing” in a mode in which he feels masterfully confident and comfortable—for instance, pitching a sale; or making a presentation, or speech.

But what factors make the sociopath’s “insight” and “sensitivity” pseudo versus authentic?

There is, first of all, the manipulative function of the sociopath’s pseudo sensitivity. Authentically insightful individuals use their insight and self-awareness not merely to better protect themselves and their interests, but also to better understand themselves and others.

Sociopaths, however, always wanting something from others, oriented as they are to wanting to take something from others, use their “pseudo” insight and self-awareness for exploitive purposes.

For instance, the sociopath’s interest isn’t to get to know and understand you better for purposes of increasing his depth of connection with you; rather, his interest to establish unobstructed access to you is about positioning himself to take something from you that he wants—whether you’re ready to offer it or not, and whether it’s in your best interest to offer it or not.

In other words, the sociopath is never interested in you; he is always, and only, interested in what he can take from you.

This applies also to the sociopath’s invitation to appreciate his pseudo display of vulnerability. This may take the form of his “startling sensitivity” and self-awareness. If he reads you correctly—as someone, say, who values vulnerability and substance—then he may regale you with “apparent” evidence of his capacity to be wounded; to manifest sensitive emotions; to position himself as someone who’s “in touch” with his feelings.

As always, how much he believes his performance in the moment (versus consciously recognizing it as bogus or manipulative) varies from sociopath to sociopath and from circumstance to circumstance.

Paradoxically, a more “self-aware” sociopath will recognize his fraudulence better than a less self-aware sociopath, who may be more prone to denial, self-delusion, and the belief that, at least temporarily, he really is the role he’s playing.

Regardless, sociopaths play the “self-aware,” “vulnerable” card (consciously or not) ultimately for grooming purposes—specifically, for purposes of softening your defenses and encouraging, coaxing out, your vulnerability.

This is because the less guarded, the more disarmed you are—in a word, the more vulnerable you are—the greater (the sociopath calculates) are his chances of taking from you what he wants.

Now let me apply some of these ideas to a hypothetical, real-life scenario: Let us say you are on a  blind date with a very charismatic, charming sociopath. There is seemingly very intense chemistry. He watches you in a very flattering, lusting way, feasting his eyes on you all night. He tells you how attractive he finds you, that he’s mesmerized by you.

Now he isn’t necessarily lying. He could be lying, we know that, in which case his  manipulation is that much more blatantly and manifestly sociopathic. But it’s also possible that he isn’t lying—that is, that he feels, in the moment, that what he’s telling you he feels is true; or, that he’s convinced himself that everything he’s telling you is true.

And so his sociopathy can’t necessarily be traced to his lying, because in this instance he may not perceive himself as lying, and, in a certain sense, he may not be lying. His sociopathy, rather, can more accurately be identified in his underlying, preexisting agenda which, in our hypothetical scenario, come hell or high water, is to “nail” you.

He made this his mission the moment he laid eyes on you and found you sexually attractive enough to make this his intention. He feels quite thrilled—perhaps even a little giddy and delighted—that you’ve proven attractive enough (in a sense, cooperative enough) to elicit his lust, which now enables him to pursue his agenda with you.

I don’t mean to suggest that this is the only agenda our hypothetical sociopath could be pursuing with you. It’s possible that he (or another sociopath) might play things differently, by approaching his interests with more or less patience; more or less calculated, disguised subterfuge.

And it’s possible that our sociopath, or a different sociopath, on this same first, blind date, might have an entirely different set of intentions, warranting a very different approach to meeting them. For instance, he or she may be a golddigging sociopath—a financial predator—less than a sexual exploiter.

However, this is what my hypothetical sociopath wants in this particular situation; accordingly, he’s going to pull out all the stops to land you in the “sack” or, one way or another, land himself in your pants.

Because all that matters—and in essence, what it always and only boils down to—is what he wants.

And so our sociopath, on meeting you and establishing his sexual interest, feels glad, elated, even excited that you bring something he wants. He may feel, beyond that, primitive gratitude that you haven’t disappointed him in this respect. Nothing, after all, could be more depresssing, more boring and less tolerable than, on his having met you, his discovering that, alas, you have nothing to give him that he wants.

Incidentally, this experience—his experience—of your uselessness elicits any number of possible reactions, including irritation, resentment, utter contempt, annoyance, and excruciating disappointment and boredom.

It is bad enough (for you) that you are only, and will never be more than, an object to the sociopath. However, for the sociopath, the fact that you are always only an object to him isn’t necessarily a problem; it is when your usefuleness as an object has run its course that the sociopath is most displeased and agitated, and when he is most likely to unmask himself as the cold, heartless person he is.

However, in our hypothetical scenario, as we’ve established, you do indeed have something he wants: he finds you gorgeous. And so in his relief, in his gladness, in his heady gratitude that you have something he wants—something that he can now can set about taking—a psychological transmutation occurs.

The sociopath’s gratitude, on discovering that you have something he wants, becomes primitively transmuted into a form of idealization—of you!

And in his primitive, corrupt idealization, the sociopath is prone to convincing himself, and you, of the sincerity of his ebulliant flattery and appreciation. So much so that when, as previously noted, he tells you he’s mesmerized by you, he may mean it, or think he means it, and he may seem and, indeed, be sincere when he says this.

But what mesmerizes him is you-the-object, not you-the-person. He is mesmerized not by the substantive you, but by his fantasy of what he imagines you will give him, or what he’ll soon coax from you or, if necessary, take from you.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake, not to suggest that  females aren’t capable of the behaviors discussed.)

Posted in: Steve Becker, LCSW

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This is right on, and nails my experience on the head. Even today I get offered spiritual and financial help from the S; and it sounds comforting and sincere when it’s offered. It’s all lies, the lies are like a waterfall flowing from his mouth; it looks wonderful and comforting, but on closer examination it just pushes you down to the rocks below to your death.


This article sheds some light on why I believed he really loved me at times. HE BELIEVED IT on some lower instinctual level and could display it in very normal appropriate ways.

This primitive transmutation concept makes a lot of sense to me.

His primal self needed creature comforts (sex, food, shelter, alcohol). He saw me as a source at any cost. The cost always being mine–emotionally, financially and the physical toll as a result of continued drainage of my strength and resources.

When he was rejected he would go into hyper survival mode and the mask would come off to show the “wild animal” which I guess is the real deal.

Thank for my morning lesson Dr. Steve.

Ox Drover

Dear Steve


After just having read my P-son’s manipulative letters to my egg donor, to my Now-X DIL, these manipulations are fresh in my memory and you described them so well.

TO ME they were obvious, the “philosophy” and the “caring” were so SHALLOW, so sophomoric. The justifications my P-son were giving to my DIL for her having an affair with the Trojan Horse was that “when you light a candle from another lighted candle it doesn’t diminish the light of the first lit candle” LOL How “PROFOUND AND ORIGINAL,” NOT!

Then, one side of his brain not communicaing with the other, as Hare pointed out—knowing the words, but not the music—he advised my DIL that she should “work on her marriage with C.”

My P-son, having spent essentially all of his adult years in prison with others of his ilk, has not learned to refine his cant to be believeable with most adults to much above what he might have done in 10th grade. There are other Ps I have come across, however, who have very refined programs of deception, and would conform to the “Snakes in Suits” picture and do quite well in upper management or society.

I think the “rash of” various Governors of several states who are caught with their morals down around their ankles lately, who have had to leave office,, who have lied, manuvered, and tried to hold on to their office even when caught (isn’t that a P-trait?) show that psychopaths can infiltrate just about any office or level in society. The current Gov. of NY is just an example, I think, of another P caught with his moral “pants” around his IMMORAL and lying ankles.

Ox Drover

Dr. Robert Hare wrote a book called “Without Conscience” it is in the LF book store. He studied them in prison for 25+ years and made some really good observations.

They, in his mind, could say “words” like “love” etc. but they didn’t really know the meanings of them so they WOULD contradict themselves and if you LISTEN closely to them they will sound somehow “off” in their wooing, or justifications.

Hare said that since they don’t really know the meaning of the words that they “know the words, but not the music” and that is one thing we can listen for are those contradictions.

Just like my P son telling my DIL that she should “work on her marriage” just after telling her that her affair wasn’t hurting her husband and that she could “love two people” just like she loved both her parents. I MEAN COMMMMME ON!!! How shallow is that? But it was what SHE wanted to hear so she took that “philosophy” as okay. He wanted her to believe that because his Trojan Horse had more control over her to help him get MONEY from my egg donor.

At the same time the TH-P was having affairs with her he was calling “Russian Bride” sites —I guess they expected to get enough money for the TH-P to buy him a Russan Bride. LOL He even had a passport application in among his papers when he was arrested. LOL

I did notice though, that when the DIL stole the $24,000 from my egg donor, she only gave the TH-P $2500 and put the rest of the money in HER name in the bank.

While they were in jail, the TH-P had given her a Power of Attorney over his money and bank account, and after she got out and he was still in prison, she signed over the title to the truck he had bought with my egg donor’s money, AND she also cleaned out his bank account! Not much in it, but I told her if she would clean it out, she could have 50% and then give my egg donor 50% since it was her money anyway.

After the TH-P got out of prison, even with a NO CONTACT order, he called my egg donor to try to BORROW MONEY LOL and he COMPLAINED that the DIL had cleaned out his bank account and he just couldn’t bellieve she would “DO such a thing” to him—how dishonest! LOL ROTFLMAO Besides the fact, he was talking to the egg donor, and it was HER money that was in that account! LOL ROTFLMAO Talk about guts and GALL! See, they know WORDS but not the “music”

If you haven’t read WITHOUT CONSCIENCE I think every one of us should, it is a great book for non professionals.


Great article. You really have a way of articulating, what is so very difficult to understand.
You said:
“But it’s also possible that he isn’t lying—that is, that he feels, in the moment, that what he’s telling you he feels is true; or, that he’s convinced himself that everything he’s telling you is true.
And so his sociopathy can’t necessarily be traced to his lying, because in this instance he may not perceive himself as lying”

This is something I have struggled with since day one. When my son hit puberty and I saw some disturbing “traits” in him that were not apperant in his younger years, one of the first things that presented itself in a big way, was the lying.
However even back then, before things progressed, when I was pretty blindsided by all of this, there was something that disturbed me more than the lies themselves.
What disturbed me the MOST was that he believed his lies. And I would swear to this on my mothers grave, that he believed his lies were the truth. And to further complicate, it seemed that my son not only believed his own lies but he became ANGRY at me, (or others) for not believing “his” truth. As things progressed it became more apperant to me that he seemed to live in his own “reality”. That is that his PERCEPTION, however “off” it might be, was his reality. And that his perception was that his reality was real and TRUE. And his perception was that everyone else was “off”. I tried (I think unsucessfuly) to explain this to his counselor. When I first took him to counseling.

Somewhere during this time period alot of projection was also taking place. It was me that was lying, the teachers were lying…..I didn’t even understand much about projection at this time.
He semed delusional, to me in his thinking. Soon there was something else added to the mix. The grandious ideas and sense of self. And I saw my sons mindset, as if he believes that his grandious ideas will happen. JUST because he says they will.
When trying to explain this to someone when talking about an adolescent, it sounds pretty unbelievable. If I am talking to a friend, they can’t necessarily wrap their brain around him “believing” his lies. Just that he lies. They can’t understand that he lives in his own reality so he doesn’t learn the “lessons” that life experience “teaches” when bad choices are made. Even when he looses, because of a choice he has made, his perception is that he has won. And because he is young this just seems to reinforce his delusional thinking over and over and over again.

The more that I saw revealed, as this disorder manifested within him….The more I needed to know how to co-exist with it as a parent. As time progressed I KNEW that I was in fact powerless, that nothing that I tried to do, made any difference. I was ineffective.
At some point, later down the road, I saw my “role” in this as to what NOT to do. I didn’t know what to DO anymore, so I needed to know what not to do, to not create more harm than good. By now his anger and hatred for me, at times, was evident and alarming. The “outside” world seemed to agitate him in general much of the time. My presence in his life seemed to fuel his anger and agitated state….Even if I wasn’t engaging with him at the moment.
This anger and hatred that my son has for me, I believe was first concieved when I was unable to believe in his lies. Or jump into HIS reality with him. Although I am unable to articulate this well, as I see it, from trying to see it from HIS PERSPECTIVE….I let him down. In a BIG way. I am this terrible parent, in his eyes. And other people continue to let him down as he navigates through his young life. (his perspective) Because as soon as they can’t supply him with what he wants, they are ruled out of his life. He is angry with them. Anyone who shows the slightest resistance (including his peers) to his reality, his greater than life itself “importance” of himself….These people are of no use to him anymore.

But the most troubling thing of all (as I see it) is that each “single” incident or encounter, that he has, reinforces his thought process rather than challenging it. It becomes more set in stone. Concrete. Unbreakable. He percieves himself more and more as powerful, and “above” those around him.

Is it possible that you might write an article about this in the form it takes in adolensence. I would be very interested in what you would have to say.


Elizabeth Conley

Great article Steve, as always.

The dis/honesty of a Sociopath or Narcissist is bizarre. They get so indignant when you call them on it. Either they believe they’re being genuine, or they believe you have no right to doubt they’re being genuine. Whichever the case may be, the tantrum that results is something to behold.

You Said:
“As always, how much he believes his performance in the moment (versus consciously recognizing it as bogus or manipulative) varies from sociopath to sociopath and from circumstance to circumstance.

Paradoxically, a more “self-aware” sociopath will recognize his fraudulence better than a less self-aware sociopath, who may be more prone to denial, self-delusion, and the belief that, at least temporarily, he really is the role he’s playing.”

Self defense experts say that you should de-escalate tensions between yourself and a potentially violent person. I think this applies doubly to Sociopaths and Narcissists. Even if you don’t expect physical violence, you should anticipate a vicious attack if you provoke them. Doubting their sincerity is something they will consider an attack, whether you’re correct or not.

Letting an S, P or N know that you know he’s a liar is going to be interpreted by him as an attack.

“1) Don’t Insult Him
2) Don’t Challenge Him
3) Don’t Deny It’s Happening
4) Give Him A Face Saving Exit”

Just break contact as quickly and cleanly as possible.


So, sometimes these ducks look like they are quacking like pigeons?

Well, that explains a lot.

If they look like a duck but quack like a pigeon, they are still enough of a duck to lay duck eggs-no?

Just call them a pigeon when they are looking? Feed them like a pigeon and back away slowly?


I like NO CONTACT – NO KIDDING better at a distance.

This stuff is SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Silvermoon,

Sometimes some of them are good enough actors that they look like SWANS, but if you watch close enough they will eventually show the DUCK—but no matter how close you are to one that appears to be a “swan” if it goes QUACK, don’t give it a second chance! LIES=run, dishonesty of any kind=run, and don’t look back and second guess your self, RUN!!!! and get gone!


Steve, this is absolutely dead on, spot on, right on, perfect.

I think it is part of what causes some of the cognitive dissonance later. Because some sociopaths and narcissiopaths (I may have the spelling of your term wrong!) DO convince themselves in the moment that they DO mean what they are saying.

You have so clearly and accurately, I think, articulated where, how and why their perception of their “feelings” falls apart and how their words of “love” or “admiration” or “idealization”never were true the way words are true for a normal person, even if gradually those feelings change over time.

But the victim is left with memories of how very, very sincere those expressions seemed at the time….especially if she is paying more attention to the words, than to actions, and more attention to his adoring eyes, than the timeline (is it normal to be hearing these words this soon?) and not noting her own hunger for the words that may tell the little voice inside her saying “honey, you aren’t THAT knock-dead beautiful and you know it” to shut up.

It is rather staggering to me to look back and see all the red flags I ignored, because I was hungry for MY movie moment …you know, where he says “you complete me” …or where we meet as strangers on top of the empire state building and he takes my hand and I know I’ll never be sleepless in Seattle or anywhere else again.

Blah! A man better be a ready to prove himself a good FRIEND before he gets near me!


Elizabeth, I love that website you referenced and I totally agree. A few times I was tempted to really “get even” or “tell off” the s in my life, and then I realized, with a cold shudder, that the last thing you should want to do is “really get through” to one of these guys. The thought of the rage that could release makes me react physically, and I have to run to the bathroom. And then I know my body is telling me in no uncertain terms that my mind has added up all the information that isn’t even part of my consciousness and telling me bodily harm awaits me if I even THINK of going down that path. I listen to my body now.

Ox Drover

Dear Neveragain,

In case you didn’t know it, you are a SMART COOKIE too, YOU DO GET IT!!!! HIGH 5!!!!


I just finished reading this really great book that Nicolaid recommended.
It’s called “Stalking the Soul”, written by Marie-France Hirigoyen.

This is what it says on pages 89-90 about emotionally abusive seduction by a perverse narcissist,

“The seductive process consists not only in overpoweringly winning over the person, but also in corrupting and suborning him. The manipulator bypasses reality, operating secretly and by surprise. He attacks underhandedly, gaining the admiration of another person who is dazzled by him and sends back to him a positive image. The stalking process uses another’s protective instincts. Because it is narcissistic seduction, the abuser seeks to find in another person a favorable self-image and a fascination with his persona without allowing himself to be taken in.
Narcissistic seduction confuses and erodes the boundaries of one’s own identity and that of another individual.
This is not the world of transference-for example, when a lover’s idealization, in order to sustain passion, refuses to acknowledge any short-comings in the beloved-but a world of incorporation where the objective is to destroy. The other’s presence is considered threatening and not complimentary.”

So, for anyone who may be wondering if your S/P/N ever loved you, the answer is probably NO.
Good times, yes…..but true love would be a NO.

Page 130 of the same book, “Their driving force is envy and their objective is taking over. To envy is to covet and to feel spiteful irritation at the sight of happiness and the advantages of other people. From the beginning, we are dealing with an abusive mentality based on a perception of what the other possesses and they lack.”

I hope this helps somebody get closure from their toxic ex.

Elizabeth Conley

‘ then I know my body is telling me in no uncertain terms that my mind has added up all the information that isn’t even part of my consciousness and telling me bodily harm awaits me if I even THINK of going down that path. I listen to my body now. ”

Good job Never Again. You’re going to be fine. We all are, as long as we listen to our instincts.

Ox Drover

Dear Elizabeth C,

Hey, GF! Glad to see you are around! I miss you when you don’t blog very often. You have a good head on your shoulders!

Spring is here (for this week any way!) and spirits are up!

Ox Drover

Dear EC,

That was a great web link on the no nonsense self defense. I wish they had spoken more about Psychopaths though as a lot of the people they describe as dangerous would fit the “mold.”

I read a great deal on the site and will go back and read some more. I know I have let my “buzzard beak overcome my hummingbird butt” too many times when I was emotionally upset. Did that and shot off my moouth toooooo many times to the P-son. Gvae him too much warning and that is never a good way to defend yourself. thanx

Ravenless Tower

The months of seduction… echoing my emotions, my dream come true – my first and only “true love”… Non-stop email, texting… all proclaiming 22 years of missing me – the way I missed him. Sadness upon learning that I’d miscarried our child years ago – feigned, of course – my sadness reflected back at me. I not only gave him the book, I opened it and turned the pages for him. And when I look back at all the texts, all the emails, I see SO many signs – it was like he was dropping clues he knew I would never put together until he had played his end game.

After 22 years, and months of interaction, I went to him… after all, he’d asked me to. He wanted me. *smile* My friends told me I was crazy, but I had to see for myself. I knew once I looked in his eyes, sat in his company, I would know. And I did.

He talked about himself, and them more about his life. He told me about the different careers he’d had, how he’d shown people to be the lazy insufferables they were and forced them to quit, retire early… his resume is lacking, no real skills other than goverment positions in “management” – and now higher up in the government in our Captiol than should be possible. Still, I sensed his mask was slipping there too as he talked of his next career change – a new one.

As he spoke I saw him – and the disppointment was heartwrenching. I’d waited so long – he was to be my “just reward” for the bad marriage (another sociopath, I now know), the years of single parenting, the child with the brain tumor… his empathy before I travelled to see him enveloped me like a warm embrace.

When I spoke to him, in his presence, he didn’t ask about me – not one word. He didn’t need to know – it was not important. And on the last day, I told him how damaged he was… and he wanted to know more about his damage.

This was four months ago, and I think of him daily. I visit this site. I despise him for not being who I needed him to be. I hate him for hurting me so callously… and I am amazed that he is a “type” of which I’d never really known before.

The zinger, was the Pandora account, which I found a month after I’d returned home. I realized how to look up his stations, and there I found it. The 80’s station – music from our time together 22 years ago – with 27 songs (ONLY 27 songs) – chosen two weeks before my visit – as he planned his end game.

Each and every song about walking away, hurting someone, deceiving…

You fallen into my arms
Crying for the death of your heart
You were stone white
So delicate
Lost in the cold
You were always so lost in the dark”

Each song about hurting me – planning to hurt me.

And he did. And I am. And somehow, I will get past this. But I have never felt so violated – so mind f*cked as I do these days.

Thank you for sharing your stories, your insights, your posts.

I am one of you – and I feel your pain – and I hope in somehow moving past my own hurt I can help to move some of you in that direction as well.

God bless…


Elizabeth Conley

Thanx Ox Drover,

I’ve missed you too. We finally closed on our new home. I’m up to my derrière in boxes!




This is excellent and describes mine perfectly and why at times, I felt so confused. He appeared so sincere but it didn’t feel like he was. He always felt like he wa acting a role that he believed.. but I questioned. And when he realized that I wasn’t going to give him all that he was after.. he began the cutting me down little by little.. This article describes perfectly his behavior and delusions..
thanks… more clarity …


Revenlesstower…If you have not seen it, go to You are getting a double whammy, a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist/whatever AND the lost love whammy.

It is actually a blessing that you found those songs, pre-planned. Total confirmation of what and who he is. Those kind of men keep rolling back into your life, like a year later. My advice is to try to make that impossible, with changing your email, phone, not opening mail, etc.

He is a sick, dangerous man….who obviously gets off on hurting women and that is all you need to know to stay away from him forever and forever.

Been there done that, a few more years than you in between contact. Pain is for a reason….to warn us to BACK AWAY and STAY AWAY.


Revenlesstower….and as I’m sure you realize, as I had to realize also, he never was a “love” that was lost and come back into your life. The woman who started that website actually had a bad experience reuniting with her past “love” also.

Ravenless Tower

neveragain… thank you for your thoughts

I DO realize he was never who I thought he was… in fact, he was exactly who I thought he was years ago when I requested a transfer away from the base where we were both stationed.

It’s a bit long, and I apologize to those of you who might be offended by that, but I am posting the letter that I wrote to him here. After I returned home, I asked him not to contact me. About two weeks later, I received a simple text, “Happy Thanksgiving Baybee” – I recognized it to be the equivalent of running someone over with a car and then going back to kick them to see if they’re dead.

A few days later, I initiated no contact – and I called him out on everything – right or wrong. I don’t think he’ll be back… but then, it would be quite a challenge to him to break me down again, wouldn’t it?

“TowerRaven” ”“

I’ve had time to reflect on all that has happened in the past months since we began corresponding again after so many long years. I realize now that the words that last time I was in your arms were full of lies: “This won’t be the last time we’ll see each other. We will ALWAYS have each other.”

The truth is, it was the last time we will see each other, I’ve NEVER had you, and you no longer have me. My love for the man I thought you were ended the moment I realized that you idealized, exploited, devalued, discarded and abandoned me without a second thought. But you missed one thing” one tiny thing you didn’t count on” in your abuse of my feelings for you, you made me STRONGER.

You read me so well, made it so easy to forget my morals and to believe instead in you. When we began communicating in August, I was surprised and, in a way, enchanted with the scenario you laid out. You were penitent for having hurt me, expressed feelings of remorse for not recognizing that you were ’in love’ with me all those years ago” you told me that you still had feelings for me ”“ mirroring my own sentiments ”“ and drawing me into your world. I have held you for so long in my memory as this amazing man who I loved, whose child I conceived, and miscarried. How could I forget that I requested a transfer away from you? It was for good reasons that I chose to forget ”“ and to avoid the pain of the loss, I idolized you, buried your faults, and remembered only what I assessed as strength of character.

You asked me so many times, despite my protests, to “come to you.” And I did – how could I not? I’ve been in love with you my entire adult life. I opened my heart up to you fully and in doing so I allowed you to see my every weakness, my every strength, and every piece of my soul. In turn you used that information to ingratiate yourself to me. You appeared to give me unconditional love and acceptance ”“ and honestly, I believe you thought that’s what it was too. For a while, at least, you imagined that I could be that ’perfect love’ that would make you feel complete. Except you aren’t capable of love, because true love means putting someone else and their needs ahead of you and your own wants and desires. It was just a game to you ”“ one that made you feel powerful, for a time.

I suspect, sadly, that you have never felt or known pure unconditional love. The last day I was with you I told you that you reminded me of a six year old boy ”“ that I saw so much damage. I wonder now if you are aware of how broken you are, and if you are angry with whoever is responsible for crippling you emotionally? I believe you equate love with weakness. You hate being weak and you hate and despise weak people. It only goes to follow that because I made the mistake of loving you, I was weak. Because I made the mistake of sleeping with you – again – I became a whore in your eyes. Either way, in your mind I was not loveable or capable of filling the void you’ve expressed feeling in your soul and saving you from your lonely self. Though in truth, no one is capable – the void is too vast.

When you were done with me there in [city] – realized I was no longer of any value to you and in fact uncomfortable with my presence – you went into action. Managing my departure while securing an alibi for yourself, disposing of me, in a sense, without a second thought. You are not capable of empathy, could not see, understand or care about the pain you caused me. Or, perhaps I misjudge you, it’s entirely possible you do SEE it, and if that’s the case, it probably pleases you. How powerful a man you are to be able to inflict such pain on a foolish, adoring woman! You spent months reading me, giving me verbally everything I wanted to hear ”“ and then you took it away ”“ ostracizing me, breaking off all communication so that I knew just how devalued I was in your eyes” that I had meant nothing to you after all – not “worthy” of your “love.” But your love was a façade” I saw the signs before traveling to see you, but I knew I had to see you to understand what was happening.

The only reason you allowed communication the night I traveled home was because you weren’t entirely certain I wouldn’t rail against you, make a scene or worse a phone call that could ruin your carefully laid disaster recovery plan. Of course, I wouldn’t – I could never intentionally cause you the harm you continue to inflict on yourself and those around you. How relieved you must have been for me to ask you not to contact me! How perfectly off the hook and free of THAT burden you must feel! Still, you contacted me on Thanksgiving and that is something I simply won’t allow ”“ understand me when I tell you there will be no contact going forward.

Now I know all too well what transpired ”“ and who you are”. and have always been” incapable of developing any measure of intimacy save what you emulate in others as a means of controlling their emotions and response to you. Because you lack empathy, you are incapable of offering any emotional sustenance to a partner.

You told me you realized your sexual life with your wife was not fulfilling soon after marriage… that makes sense. She isn’t a whore and became a Madonna to you in her attempts to become pregnant, to bear children, and to build a home. She loved you and took care of you and therefore was no longer attractive to you. You prefer to make love to yourself – the only perfect and acceptable partner you know. In November, even with me, the promise of a passionate reunion never availed itself ”“ you used my body to masturbate your own.

Still, you speak well of your wife, which tells me you fear her – what she could do to bring your make-believe semblance of a world crashing down around you. When I watched you terrified, scrambling, trying to ensure she did not find out about our tryst, I realize what a lonely, sad, and also a very angry man you are. Angry not because you never experienced love and probably never will” Instead, you are angry because you are not as powerful, admired and successful as you had planned to be and as you feel you deserve to be. Your daydreams refuse to come true no matter how you wish them so. If she does divorce you it could mean the loss of your clearances – career suicide.

You are a warrior – a Spartan, as you put it – able to start again with nothing because the attachment you have to your current life is not real… and a shaky foundation on which to base a family or future plans. This is no secret, you know as much. You cannot conceive of a life in one place with one set of people, doing the same thing, in the same field with one goal within a decades-old game plan. To you, this is death. You are most terrified of growing old, of boredom and whenever faced with its haunting prospect, you inject drama into your life (your cat and mouse game with me) or even danger (the job A is offering you.) This is the only way you feel alive.

I don’t know what’s going to happen to you” I can’t care anymore ”“ though I have to tell you, the man I thought you were is an amazing man ”“ someone I wish you could know” had somehow aspired to be. I LOVED that man with all my heart, and much to my detriment. Whoever damaged you as a child should be damned for leaving you this way ”“ crippled with fear of being called an imposter and self-loathing to the extent you display the antithesis in every effort to make yourself feel alive and to fill the void that may never be satisfied because the things you seek to fill it with don’t exist ”“ like you, they are a mirage.

For me, knowing all I know now, the man of my memory is dead to me; he was make-believe anyway, a product of the imagination of a young girl perpetuated by hurt and maternal loss. What remains is truly, poetically, tragically a ’Beautiful Disaster’. When I asked you why you loved me, you couldn’t tell me, but I know now it was because you were enthralled with the way you saw yourself reflected in my eyes – like Narcissus staring into the pool at his own reflection. Such a pity it took 24 years after meeting you for me to break the cycle ”“ I will no longer be your Echo.

When I met you, I felt as though I’d known you my entire life ”“ because I have ”“ you and people like you who use people up and discard them without a thought. My parents, my ex-husband” as hurtful as letting go of my illusion of the wonderful “TowerRaven” is ”“ the truth is I CAN finally let you go, and for that I am grateful. I told you on the bench that last day that I could see your pain – your damage – but I also know I can’t help you. If I thought I could… if you could be put back together… I’d do my best to try, but all you would do is hurt me – again.

You will not acknowledge and likely deny everything I have written ”“ but even as I know this I know you’ve read every last word ”“ after all, it’s about you. I realize that I can’t even hate you ”“ but I pity you. And now you will blame me for all that has happened, but I have accepted my responsibility and made peace with myself for the faults that are mine. As a woman, regardless of our history, I knew better than to become involved with a married man ”“ no matter what you claimed your status to be.

You said to me, the last time you touched me, that we would “always have each other— what you meant to say, was that YOU would always have ME ”“ to provide you with the things you need when you are lonely ”“ when no other source exists to feed your emptiness. I can’t be there for you though, because I know in my heart you will never be good for me. This is the last correspondence I will send to you, and I ask you to respect my wishes by not contacting me again.

You are in counseling with your wife now, and I’m sure you’ve made me the scapegoat in all of this. I wonder how much of what you told me was actually truth. But it doesn’t matter anymore than the truths or lies you are sharing in counseling, because I doubt you’ll take advantage of it. It would be too much for you – scared little boy of a man that you are – to let the walls down and to be seen ”“ to see yourself ”“ as you are. I’m not sure you could stand it ”“ for your sake, I hope your advancing age will lead you to seek solace and to heal ”“ eventually you will burnout and I hope someone is left who you haven’t damaged so much they too leave you. The choices you make going forward are none of my business. I sincerely hope that somehow you ”“ and at the very least the people you’ve hurt and continue to hurt – find peace. I know I intend to ”“ again.



This really hit home. His whole seduction was focused on me from the beginning. The longing looks, feeling hurt if I talked to another man, the concern that I didn’t love him as much as he loved me right away. I found it weird (should have listened to my gut) but then endearing finally because he seemed so in love with me. But I realize that it was always a means to an end. There was always a seduction that gave him the results he desired. I remember someone telling me that he did mean what he said “at that moment” but that it didn’t last past the moment. I guess what kept me hooked in so long was that I couldn’t connect with the fact that there was no real feeling behind the words and gestures. I just couldn’t compute that someone could say the things he said and show so much affection and caring but not mean it. That is what is so devasting and confusing. The thing that drives me crazy is the thought that he just goes to the next person and does the same seduction process. That hurts, confuses and makes me feel so worthless for some reason. It sickens me to think that he is saying the same things, making the same gestures, saying the same things in bed to someone else. I have such a hard time integrating that into my own feelings–the fact that is just that easy for him. I think that is what does such damage to the victim. That is the legacy they leave behind — confusion, pain and humiliation. Moving beyond that is slow moving for the victim and a fast track for for the sociopath. There is no real feeling there that they connect with, while we connect with all our feelings. We are left naked in emotion while they walk away.


And yes Raven they paint this dream.. they figure you out and create the kind of dream that you want.. and they may want also.. but have no way to create or make happen .. it’s all games, illusions and delusions… we buy into it for awhlte becasue we want it and because we this is the man that can make it happen…. but he can’t … he wants to take and control and use for his benefit… nothing is for you.. it’s for his ego, his use, his manipulation… and lines get so blurred at times.. because of exactly what is written in this article..

the things you described about your teenage sons behaviour, brought back so many memories[none of them good ones!] of the way my teeenage daughter,{now almost 46,} used to behave and carry on. The nicer I was to her, the more kind, helpful and understanding, the more she seemed to loathe and detest me.It culminated in her leaving school without our permission, and running away from home, disappearing for 6 months I was beside myself with worry, and the police would do NOTHING to help me find her. At that stage she had her own little flat under the house, with her own toilet and shower, and even a mini kitchenette. My ex and I furnished it for her with mainly second hand stuff, witha square of green carpet, which we picke d up cheap. My ex even made a wooden bed for her, and we bought a mattress and bedding, and a new wardrobe.She was talking about quitting school at this stage, and we were desperate for her to stay on as she was a straight A student before she fell in with her new F–wit Punk mates.One day, I came home from my full time teaching job to finda note on her pillow, “Have left home, sorry, Love, Debbie.” Six months later this lady rang me up and said,”I think I have your daughter here.” Apparently D had turned up one evening, in the pouring rain, with a garbage bag of clothes, and told the lady she was”Destitute and Homeless.” She had her own flat!! We managed to persuade her to come home, but she was resentful, used to look at me all the time with hate filled eyes,she was always in black, black dyed hair, black eye liner, smoked, drank,swore at me like a troupersexually active,, was totally out of control. To make matters worse, my ex had started drinking again.,{he is an alcoholic} after nearly 10 years of sobriety, brought on by the worry of his beloved daughter throwing her life away. So, I had 2 drunks to deal with from then on, and was beaten up by both of them before I fled in terror from that awful house.My younger girl emotionally left home then too, at age 17,and was never home, always with friends, but she seldom got drunk and her friends were more upmarket than Ds. She also now despises me, and I havent seen her in 17 years, despite me pleading to be allowed to see her 3 kids.Now D ,46, almost, with no paper qualifications of any kind,in and out of jobs, has now apparently embezzled A$62,000 from a former company and they have “forgiven ‘ her A$50,000 of this. The remaining $12,000 they have yet to be paid back. What is to become of her? I have baled her out financially over and over, to the tune of thousands of dollars,_no more! I was only a source of supply to her. Im sure she still loathes a nd despises me, but used to say,”I love you” to try to con more cash out of me.
I used to feel sorry for her, no longer, she has done all this to herself. God knows where she will end up when she has run out of suckersto con.What a waste, se was so bright, good at Art,A’s in every subject,but since Puberty Im sure she turned overnight into a Spath.Sh is grandiose, haughty, entitled, selfish, uses everyone,lies constantly, no remorse, no guilt, no empathy, no conscience, despises people who love her.
Ive had to give up and go totally NC, it will be one year in June, since I rang her, and I last saw her 8th Dec.,2008.She and her sister used to put me down every chance they got, less after I married David, as they knew they couldnt get away with it any more, but they treated him with disdain, and again, the more he was kind to them and loving, the more they seemed to despise him. Whats the answer? They are SICKOS!! Love, GemXX


Your comment about wanting to heal the damage touched me. I think that these people come as innocent souls into the world and find themselves betrayed by their genetics.

I can understand how enraged that could make you over a lifetime. How it could create a vampire who must only feed on other people but may never break out of the boredom and isolation.

Yes, I am sorry for it. I may forgive it even, but I may not nor can you ignore it.

I think that mine was a professional womanizer. I saw in his emails how he was using about 20 online sites and how he did the same things over and over. The same words, the same approach.

I saw how he did it to another woman he was married to as well. He might still be married to her.

It seems who he said those things to did not matter. And that included me.

Nuthin’ from nuthin is nuthin and there was really nuthin there to feel for.

Unless you pity the vampire at the moment he sinks his teeth into the soft flesh of your neck and begins to feed. ….

super chic

gem, … just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you!!!
we don’t have to believe we’re the crazy ones anymore!
here are some hearts and flowers for you…


Thanks so much Shabby! how did you DO that? with the hearts and flowers? Very clever!
I know all of the stuff I described happened a very long time ago, but Ive never ever trusted her since then, and I never will.I gues I DO still feel some love for her as a Mum, but as a person, I cant stand her!!I often wonder, what will become of her, when she runs out of suckers?
Our loving new “kids’ are coming over for lunch tomorrow, so that will be fantastic!
From noe on I intend to give my love to people who appreciate me, and love me back !! Much Love,and look after yourself!!{{HUGS}}}< Mama Gem.XXXXXX

Ravenless Tower

silvermoon –

The best I can manage is a two-fold process… 1. Telling myself the man I was in love with DID exist – for me – and that it was REAL love – for me – and that the man is dead. Grieve him like a dead man and move on. 2. Harder – Acknowledging that it was not my fault, but that I do need to look inside myself to understand what business in my life is unfinished that leaves me so vulnerable.

I have always been attracted to “intensity” which I now understand does not equate to “intimacy.” The more I read, the more I learn about him – but more importantly, about myself. I have always mistaken the “intensity” for strength and character – but it is seldom that at all. It’s power and control and is familiar because of my upbringing, but not healthy for me.

I have always said I need a man stronger than me – but I need to rethink that, because I do not wish to be controlled. I have been a divorced single mom for nearly 10 years… the more that time passes, the more I doubt it will happen, but one day I hope to find a partner – and a true capacity for empathy is high on my list of desired traits.

At the same time, the loneliness is exactly what he knew he could exploit – and because of my history with him, he is probably the only man who could get away with “earning” my trust so quickly. It was misplaced.

The only solace I have in this is that I did send that damned letter, I said my peace… now I need to find a way to heal.

BTW – he added a song to his Pandora account about a week ago – look at the lyrics – sung like a true P/S/N:

“Dream About Me”

Oh, dream about me
Lie… on the phone to me
Tell me no truth
If it is bad
There’s enough in my life
To make me so sad

Just dream about
Color fills our lives
Just dream about
Someone else tonight

Oh, dream about me
On the phone
Talking quietly
I wanna be yours
Oh, won’t you be mine
Against red skies
For all time

So dream about… us
When we’re old
Just dream about
How I will let go

I shudder thinking “how is it possible for someone to be so sick? so heartless?”

As a logical woman, I will never find the answer to this – so why can’t I just move on and quick THINKING ABOUT IT!?

Thanks for listening!



This article is so accurate. Mine was never angry or abusive and always softly spoken, ‘vulnerable’, ‘misunderstood’, ‘sensitive’ etc etc. He was a true chameleon and of course I didn’t see the monster underneath until all the lies had been revealed. The non- violent ones are the most dangerous I think.


I think this article clarifies the thing to me.

I think its the mistake of not seeing the acting for what it was through the blindness of the seduction and the set up and all that.

Jeez, Idon’t know what I would have to have been to be ahead of all that?

I can see from looking into his world that he is what he and I would not have found out so soon if not for the unplanned event of his arrest.

So I got lucky.

He was a professional womanizer and he was using me. I get that.

He helped me to overcome the part of me that wanted someone like him in my life.

That was a gracious gift. I am thankful for it.
Now I can just let go.

Well easier said than done, but let go is what it about.
Let go

Its over for this go round. Its over.

It takes time to let go. And you just have to keep on refocusing on it.

I think its because time as it passes lets you remember the good stuff better than the bad.

The bad stuff I experienced with this guy was better than any other relationship- we got a long really well, seemed to be able to handle anything that came up for discussion and then poof he was gone and I found out the rest of the story….

That makes it hard because I miss the good stuff, I fell mule kicked by the bad stuff and the invitation to jump back in is persistent still.

I do a lot of meditative things now to quiet that concious place in my brain that wants to yammer about it all the time.

I put those thoughts in a bubble when they come and let them float away.

Its about letting go.


I wonder if the sociopath (female) is self aware? I’m thinking yes she is. Some background, she was the former girlfriend of my significant other (male). They had not been romantically involved for many years but she kept him on a string exploiting him for money and advice and occasionally a place to stay when all her options were gone. When she found out about me she was not not happy. But when she realized she couldn’t get my partner to drop me, she then changed her tactics and totally supported our relationship. Why? Well now he would no longer ask ANYTHING of her, he didn’t need her at all for any assistance, I would fulfill that role, her time would totally be hers, no need for reciprocation. PLUS she would have a new person to victimize. All she had to do was convince me that I was ‘the sister she never had’.

When she’d be in our presence she would try to find some way to cause problems between him and me. Seemed she actually enjoyed disharmony. I began to observe her behavior and I became more and more suspicious of what seemed on the surface as innocent but as I grew to know her better, it was very obvious that it was purposeful. She is out of my life for now, thankfully I became aware. But she is still ‘friends’ with my partner, she says they’re like brother and sister!

She is IMO self aware and knows exactly what she’s doing. I have considered doing a background check on her for myself. If something did show up that was troublesome, should I tell my partner? I wonder if even that would make him realize what she is? Or should I just file the information away? Or should I not even bother to have this done? One reason I was considering it is that she is constantly trying to get business partners, me included! I had considered it before I came to know her better.

Ox Drover

Dear Zen,

I can’t imagine having an S.O. Partner that did not “get it” about a “mutual” friend. There was a time when one of my late husband’s and my “friends” (she was a “sister” to me) turned out to be a THIEF, and upon discovering it, I was TRAUMATIZED, especially by that discovery of someone I loved and trusted and would have trusted with my life! Ofr course she denied the theft. This couple was also very very close to my adopted son too. He was stunned.

It hurt my husband as well, because she was married to a man that was one of his CLOSEST FRIENDS….so it was give up contact with HIS close friend as well if we both went NC with the couple.

Not long after this, my husband was terminally injured in a plane crash.

I eventually let these people back into my life after a period of years, and “walked on egg shells” around them, while they got pushier and pushier and realized it wasn’t just HER, that he was as much a user as she was, and felt ENTITLED for me to take care of their needs, support them, let them take over my property as if it was theirs.

Crying buckets of tears, I started to set boundaries, they crossed them, I set firmer boundaries and they crossed those, and finally in the end, when they started trying the “oh, pity me” plays I set the final boundary of NC—and of course they started the SMEAR campaign of how we had “‘deserted them” in their HOUR OF DARKEST NEED—that didn’t fly either with our REAL FRIENDS who are now also seeing them for what they are—USERS who expect others to take care of their needs, rather than taking care of their own needs like adults should, who feel envy of others who have made better life decisions and who have more assets because of hard work and good financial decisions. Some how they feel entitled that those “friends” should not only SHARE with them, but give them CONTROL as well.

Both of these X-friends have quite a few psychopathic traits. These traits coupled with good educations, a high intelligence and some charm, give them the opportunity to pull the wool over people’s eyes, but as their life situation deteriorates to the point it has lately, they are able to suck in fewer and fewer marks to con. Fewer and fewer people who have the resources for them to parasitize, and at this point, they are actually mooching off of his retarted brother who owns a home and gets a “government check.”

Their sense of entitlement and superiority to others vs. their actual circumstances frustrates them quite a bit I am sure, but they do not see that they are responsible for where they are financally….it is some one else’s fault. You don’t learn from mistakes if you always attribute them to some one else.


This is EXACTLY hitting the nail on the head.
Everything I needed today as I face an expected ‘Show up to Not Show up” from the EX.
He contacted me on my BD one month ago and twice since. I haven’t slammed the door again but I’m sure it’s coming.
It’s sad I have compassion for him that could only end up hurting me.
Every interaction is a GAME with him. I always consider my self losing but truly it has made me stronger too.
I don’t regret letting him in a little a month ago. It’s a level of healing I need to go through.
I haven’t been to Lovefraud since he showed up. Trying to sort through things as I know them so well. However, today I came and needed this blog to help me through the rest of the journey ahead.
It will go as it should for I believe I am aware enough to protect myself.
I’ve had a supportive therapist and very aware of my surroundings now.
Have a good weekend, as I will check in sometime Sunday.
All of you are strong men and women. Stronger than you realize and deserving of better than crumbs we’ve been left.
I also have read many many many books and have one left that has been suggested here. “The Betrayel Bond”.
I picked it up at the bookstore and sat for about an hour reading over it. I say one book left because I know that this is the final truth, the betrayel bond and the trauma bond.
My therapist and I have worked at length on why my ex and I formed a trauma bond. Now I’m healing but it is work.
I know how much work it is and I know he is damaged. He told me he’s damaged. I cannot fix him. He’s not ready to work on himself.
The first call was he was humble and the last two were to make sure I was still here. I’m not really here for the game again.
My response was cold and short. I listened to his lies. I went on with my life and so be it.
Yes, I may answer the phone or I may not. That will be a decision I make at the last minute but I know what I will accept and won’t accept.
Anyway, needed to blog this and maybe it makes no sense to anyone but this is a great place, a safe place, to let all this garbage out.

Ox Drover

ps, I got side tracked there zen, the thing is that I would not have anything to do with ANYONE who “trivalized” the pain caused by a psychopath to me…especially an SO—there was a time I would have said “well, if you want to be friends with her, that’s fine, but I don’t.” NOW that I know more about psychopaths, I couldn’t stay with someone who wasn’t loyal to ME—it’s me or her baby, make up your mind! One or the other, not both!

Ox Drover

Dear Sotired,

Glad you came here today. I am sending you prayers, thoughts and a big ((((hug)))))



“When she’d be in our presence she would try to find some way to cause problems between him and me. Seemed she actually enjoyed disharmony.”

Abusers are excellent at pitting people against each other and provoking jealousies and rivalries.

So, I would be careful if your friend is still socializing with her.

Is it possible that she is trying to provoke jealousy in you by saying that your friend and her are like “brother & sister”?

If your friend cannot see what she really is, I don’t think I would tell him if you find anything damaging on her.
I would definitely keep it for future use, though.

What might happen if you try to “enlighten” your friend is that your friend will become annoyed/angry with you.
It becomes a “kill the messenger” type of situation, and YOU will be the messenger.
The result will be you and your friend arguing about this girl. And you both will be weakened from this, by the way.

And, guess who will be sitting back and enjoying every minute of it????
She will be able to stay above it all while the 2 of you fight, and it will reinforce her omnipotence.

Be careful.



It’s not easy to be honest. He and I have been seeing each other off and on for about 5 years and we’ve been living together for about 10 months. He has known her for about 15 years and they’ve not been romantically involved for many many years. She is a master at manipulation. I fell for it at first for several reasons, I am living now in another city with not a lot of contacts plus my partner’s children have a relationship with her as she was around when they were small. He does see that she is manipulative but his problem is this #1 he is very empathetic and very sentimental (which she uses big time to her advantage) #2 he sees her as incapable- she plays on the the pity factor and his sense of responsibility since she has been basically homeless for some time.

Also, if he admits what she is, he is in a sense admitting to his own failings. With him being extremely sentimental, all the things that he has held dear, family gatherings, holidays etc were a fraud and for him to admit that would be difficult. Also I think a man has problems admitting they have been used or being played for a fool. Difficult thing for anyone to admit but I think worse for a male.

What will happen in the near future I am not sure. I do know that she will never be welcome in my home again. She cannot be trusted. She eavesdrops, she lies, she exploits, she is totally cavalier about others time and money, she is a user. One day he may realize this I dunno. What do you think about a background check? Would that be a good idea?



Thanks Rosa, I don’t think she actually was trying to evoke jealousy I think she was trying to suck me into her web. Her real brother and family have cut her totally off, why I have no idea but I can imagine.

I did try to enlighten him when I knew something was wrong but not sure what, I thought maybe she was borderline (not truly knowing what this was ) and he was quite upset that I believed such a thing although he does admit she manipulates him that she ’embellishes’, he acknowledges the behavior not a label. I’ve not told him I think she’s a sociopath.

I am afraid of what she’ll do as she knows him very very well, she’s had many years to study him. So the worse case senario is that she turns him against me. Well if that happens, so be it. I’ll have to move on, I’m not going to fret about it there is little I can do at this point honestly. 🙁


You know what you have to do…..for you.

Your just not ‘there’ yet.
I still hear a ray….albeit small…..ray of ‘hope’ in your post… if he will come to you one day….and announce…..he’s ready to work on him.

IT WON’T happen….it’ll only be lip service…..

Believe in yourself and your value and know…..just know…..your worth more than the constant crap they feed.

It’s your choice…..keep YOU at the forefront.


Keep reading girl….keep educating yourself….keep strength and keep HOPE…..BUT IN YOURSELF…..not anyone else!


Ox Drover

Dear Zen,

Unless she has a CRIMINAL CONVICTION a background check won’t show up a lot of stuff. You can get a PI to run a background check and what it should show up is:
1. Criminal convictions, parole violations etc. It will NOT show up anything about ARRESTS that didn’t result in convictions.

2. It will show the addresses she had rented, owned, or where utilities and land line phone service was in HER NAME, if she couch surfed it will NOT5 show up where she was living.

3. It should show up addresses on her driver’s licenses and any bankruptsy but may not come out.

Cost is about $250 the last time I had one run. The ON LINE ones for “$79.99” etc., I also had run were a WASTE of time.

So unless she has a criminal conviction history it would be worthless, but you never know, you might BINGO and get a nasty criminal history but if you have known her this long she probably wasn’t in trouble with the law enough to be in jail or prison for it.

A bigger, actually hands on, INVESTIGATIVE BACKGROUND CHECK is pretty expensive if the PI has to go out and interview people etc. Might not turn up anything either.

I understand about your Friend and his feelings of ADMITTING HE HAD BEEN CONNED as well, and his “empathy” for her, but at the same time, I also realize that people who are always EXCUSING bad behavior in others is not always really looking at the world through a HEALTHY PRISIM EITHER—I know I sure wasn’t when I was excusing everything under the sun in the Ps I was associated with.

My late husband had a difficult time as well acknowledging that “friends” could be so DISORDERED and at the same time so “sweet”—and when the partner of your friend screws your partner it causes all kinds of “fall out.” It turns out my husband was wrong about BOTH of that couple, and so Was I for a LONG TIME. My adopted son D loved these people from the time he was a kid and involved in Boy Scouts at an early age, the man of the couple was his MENTOR, his idol. The woman was like “another mother” and so when he finally realized that I was right about these people and that they were ABUSERS and USERS it was a horrible LOSS for him. He now sees them for what they are, thank God, but it HURT HIM SO BADLY to see that he had been DUPED.

When my egg donor started lying to me and my sons, and sending money to my P-son and comfort etc. and “disbelieving” what we KNEW (and she knew too) to be the truth, he tried to kill us—we cut off contact with HER. I was actually suprised that both my sons are NC with her now. One actually stormed out the door and said, “I won’t be around you and your lies” the other one, D, just sort of “faded out of sight” but HAS NO WISH TO BE AROUND HER, is NC. He is not one for big loud confrontations, he just fades away.

I am finally able to SET BOUNDARIES and enforce them, but not let my my excitement or emotional pain make it into a “big loud” confrontation any more. I am sticking to my guns and NC no matter what the provocations are, and except for being in COURT, if they have anything to say to me they can say it through my attorney. That’s what he is paid for. Or they can write me a letter or an e mail, but except for necessary BUSINESS about our farm, there is no “chat”—

There is no love left, no respect, no trust, and without those things, there is NO RELATIONSHIP, who why have “contact”? I’m sure not going to get anything beneficial out of contact with them, that’s for sure, and I might give them something to use against me in a fight…so NC FOREVER!


Thanks OxDrover,

I had wondered if a background check would be of benefit. I know for a fact she’s screwed over a LOT of people in so-called business deals. She was very worried that I would run into one of the people she had conned. I wish I knew the truth re her but I probably never will.

She forwarded a text message that she thought would cause sympathy for her showing how ‘crazy’ the person is who sent the msg, uh well to me it showed she was exactly what I suspected! It does really bother me that he refuses to even consider my thoughts on this, I guess he thinks I’m jealous I don’t know. I’ve told him that she lies and I don’t trust her. It is upsetting truthfully to think he trusts her and not my observations. I’ve thought at the end of our lease that I should just go back to my home and not look back. He doesn’t try to force her on me or anything like that it’s just bothersome to me that there is this wedge that I will never accept again.

Ox Drover

Dear Zen,

Even after being “involved” with the criminal justice system and courts and prisons (via my P-son) since 1988-9 I am just now learning what would have saved me a LOT of grief and pain as well as a huge amount of money.

I had some experience in doing drug and other testing at the clinic in which I worked for several years, but other than small claims court, nothing much. Now I am learning all about probate courts, criminal courts, prison systems, parole and so on. I had a PI back ground check done on one of my Ps, and it showed up 15 pages of CONVICTIONS including sexual offender x 3 with children, however, I got the SAME back ground check run on my DIL at the same time (and boy is she ever a P) but up until she went to jail/court for furnishing a hand-gun to her BF who was a convicted felon, she had a clean record. All I got was her SS# and every place she had lived for the last 20 years. She had also been in the Air Force for a while, I was never able to find out the circumstances of her leaving the AF, I imagine it was because she was preg, but don’t know for sure. It did sort of shoot a hole in her claims that she “didn’t know anything about guns” cause she sure finished BASIC training. But nothing about her service record.

The new privacy acts also make it almost IMPOSSIBLE to get someone’s credit report legally unless they give permission.

The IRS won’t even investigate them unless there is a minimun of $250K in possible back taxes, I understand that amount at least is what you have to claim. If you do turn them in and the IRS collects though, you get 10% as a bonus!

Well, this guy sure doesn’t sound like he is much of a “winner” any way, he is at the very least an easy mark or a dupe. But dupes can be a bad deal as they forward on information to the Ps that can bite you in the arse eventually. I can tell you that for SURE! Happened to me.

I am just glad that I have eliminated these people out of my life, physically, and/or emotionally. TRUST is very important to me now, and at the FIRST sign of someone being untrustworthy they are GONE. Sometimes it hurts like heck. I am also not going to be around someone who ENABLES these people either. That’s the thing as well, there is so much collateral damage from people you would like to be around, but they make such poor choices out of excess empathy it just isn’t worth it.

I’ve only got one friend that I really care for who is married to a P, but the situation isn’t going to change, he is in very poor health, and an older guy, and he is embarassed by her behavior, depressed and a lot of other problems, but My son D and I do like this man and spend as much time with him as we can, and as little with her as we can. She doesn’t bother me much now emotionally as I just really no longer give a big rat’s behind about her or what she says, and I do set boundaries with her, so that helps. Sometimes that is the choice we have to make about who we associate with if they bring on Ps as “baggage.” But I am prepared to cut loose if it starts to become a big problem for me. I am putting MYSELF FIRST now.

This past week, I went to a probate attorney for some advice BEFORE I need it, and will follow up on the things he suggested. It was worth the small amount it cost me, so I figure it was a GOOD INVESTMENT. Trying to figure out what to do when your butt is on fire is a bad time to be searching Lowe’s for a fire extinguisher. Better to be prepared before hand.

Dear all, Always astounded at the level of good writing and thinking on this site, all of us duped by the lies of a P. And as the article so rightly points out (Dr. Steve, always bang on) they are very good. (the P;s, at faking whatever they choose to fake),

I will always remember during my early days in the investment business (17 yrs old) one of the top honcho sales people jumping up after making a sale on the phone and shouting ” I am so damn good, sometimes I even believe my own bullshit! “.. and the trading room cheering him on.

I think the article also speaks to the compartmentalizing of the P…when he/she is in the “moment” they are on, and their truth is their truth. They see no condradiction in a completley opposing behavior hours, days or months later. They are predators, so they navigate between opportunities and dangers on a constant fight or flight survival mode , “how can I get out of this, or get that which I desire” , kind of gut level, with devasting results to their victims when they are good at their game.

The open declarations my x made about how his family comes first above all else were very convincing to everyone, not just me, he played the act to a tee…doting, generous, always present, whatever you want sky is the limit, I love you and only you, you are everything to me kind of stuff.

All the time.

It actually became uncomfortable. Because I heard his words, but there was no longer any music. I could not reciprocate. But I believed he believed. I believed he “loved” me. And it was my own stupid GUILT at the idea of abandoning, essentially a good man that loved me, (not to mention kids, high shcool $$ etc) that kept me with him.

While he lied, stole, cheated, abused, and humiliated me, deliberately, over and over and over, 85% of it without my knowledge. The point being, as Oxy and others have so rightly pointed out- “lies=leave”. It was that fifteen percent that I knew about that I shouldn’t have let slide. I am standing her enow on priciples, (other thread) that I should have protected and nourished ALWAYS…not said oh..he loves me…he tries….he means well….give him another chance.

I felt at a gut level that the nicely wrapped package was rank, but good manners forced me to take it and say thank you.

So, I pity the fool who ever tries to capture me with words again. Besides, Oxy would boink me really bad with her e-skillet.


Dear Ravenlesstower,
You are a very good writer, and I think with a relationship that spans that many years, you have to send that final note. I did too. So much of what you wrote was true for me too.

1. “and because of my history with him, he is probably the only man who could get away with “earning” my trust so quickly. It was misplaced.” TRUE for me too.

2. “You told me you realized your sexual life with your wife was not fulfilling soon after marriage” that makes sense. She isn’t a whore and became a Madonna to you in her attempts to become pregnant, to bear children, and to build a home. She loved you and took care of you and therefore was no longer attractive to you. You prefer to make love to yourself ”“ the only perfect and acceptable partner you know. In November, even with me, the promise of a passionate reunion never availed itself ”“ you used my body to masturbate your own.—”BINGO”even the month!

3. “And I did ”“ how could I not? I’ve been in love with you my entire adult life. I opened my heart up to you fully and in doing so I allowed you to see my every weakness, my every strength, and every piece of my soul. In turn you used that information to ingratiate yourself to me. You appeared to give me unconditional love and acceptance ”“ and honestly, I believe you thought that’s what it was too. For a while, at least, you imagined that I could be that ’perfect love’ that would make you feel complete. Except you aren’t capable of love, because true love means putting someone else and their needs ahead of you and your own wants and desires. It was just a game to you ”“ one that made you feel powerful, for a time—.Ditto!

4. “It was for good reasons that I chose to forget ”“ and to avoid the pain of the loss, I idolized you, buried your faults, and remembered only what I assessed as strength of character.—Same.

5. “I’ve had time to reflect on all that has happened in the past months since we began corresponding again after so many long years. I realize now that the words that last time I was in your arms were full of lies: ’This won’t be the last time we’ll see each other. We will ALWAYS have each other.’ The truth is, it was the last time we will see each other, I’ve NEVER had you, and you no longer have me. My love for the man I thought you were ended the moment I realized that you idealized, exploited, devalued, discarded and abandoned me without a second thought. But you missed one thing” one tiny thing you didn’t count on” in your abuse of my feelings for you, you made me STRONGER.—.

Well, here we part ways, because I let him build me up and dump me a total of four times in my life. It only took ONCE for you, or maybe twice if you count 22 years ago. I am impressed, and you go girl!

And yes…the lyrics are very telling are they not?


He knew I hated deceitfullnes particularly in a relationship, he knew I didnt hold with people who have casual sexual encounters..He told me he hated deceit and casual sex and had only had two lovers before me…turns out he was the most deceitful creature I ever met and he had had many one night stands…I dont think I would listen to any man again…I think sociopathy is being a man.

Ox Drover

Dear Muldoon,

Sweetie, it isn’t JUST men, there are plenty of females who are Psychopaths as well.

Yours, like all of them, will NEVER change….as long as you stay with him he will lie to YOU, cheat on you, and so on. When he moves on to the next one, he will lie to her, cheat on her….he will never change. He IS the lie.

You can’t heal him, you can only heal and change your self. I pray that you can do that. ((((hugs))))) and my prayers.

Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

Well, said, brother! I think I am probably on that same path, doing well by myself for myself, and I always get along with myself, like what I cook, and never tell myself off! LOL ROTFLMAO

Today has been another wonderful day spent with ME, MYSELF AND I! That stinking cow is still holding that calf for RANSOM, but she is “walkin’ funny” so I think by morning there will be a new one on the ground!

Got an e mail from a friend today, her houselburned so I gotta get out in the storage and rummage around and get the things out that might help her out. Gosh, a burn out is a bad thing! So many things that can’t be replaced—I’ve got two little fire safes for very important papers, but there’s a lot of other stuff that I could’t cram in an 18 wheeler that I’d sure hate to lose. Money couldn’t replace them.

That’s another thing I’ll add to my list of blessings, my house didn’t burn today!

Spring looks like it is here!

The sun shone beautifully!

I’m healthy!

gosh, I could go on and on! LOTS of blessings, Henry, and one of the biggest ones is my cyber-friends here at LF! (((hugs)))) to you all!

Ox Drover

Henry, what happened to your post? It went away, did you delete it? Boy, that is disconcerting! LOL


lol hey oxy I deleted it. but thanks for your response .. i think being terminly single is fine, at my age I dont care anymore if’n my soulmate is out there lookin for me, I am gonna stay hid….
I woud walk funny also if I was gettin ready to have a cow..
Yes nice weather but windy and a big chance for heavy rain sunday and monday so get your ung yuns and tater s planted tomorrow..sorry i deleted that – sometimes i feel like the blog pest with my brain fart one liners….

Ox Drover


Man, you think you are a pest? Well, when I started posting that short answer and then when I posted, DANG you were gone and I was wondering if I’d lost my mind.

Someone sent me the cutest video of a guy singing to an “old folks” convention about losing his memory and everyone that got it (well almost everyone) sent back an e mail that said they’ld about split their guts laughing! I WASN’T LAUGHING when you post was gone, I thought I’d lost my mind! LOL

Oh, well, it’s time for me to go beddie bye any way, Don’t know where EB is tonight she’s usually here late. D’s got company and is out roaming the farm some where with his buddies—they were plotting on how to build affordable “climbing holds” for practicing their rock climbing–guy things! I ain’t a gonna get up on no stinking mountain and hold on by my fingernails! But at least they use those climbing harnesses and ropes, do it safely, but still not my game. Good nite!

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