Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
I wanted to take mine to the mat and it became an obsession for a few years. I did all the homework and investigations and consulted a lawyer. He advised me not to carry on for all the reasons written above and I was completely deflated, angry and frustrated. At the time I thought he was wrong but he actually gave me good advice. I would never have recouped any money as I’m sure it was all spent or spirited away somewhere and the toll it would have taken on me and my family to go to court is too awful to contemplate. I’ve had to somehow come to terms with the fact that he just got away with it. These days, after all the great advice I’ve read here and on other sites I can see that it was better to walk away rather than continuing any kind of contact with that twisted, evil individual.
For anyone thinking of persuing a P, I would only advise them to do it if they had a rock solid case and even then it’s a risk.
Swalow
Hello all….still here reading, meant to post a few times but lost password and the keys sent were not working. Anyway, life is still pretty ok at the moment, definately thanks to this site. I am different, I am not so naive, gullible, trusting or willing to be treated like a second rate citizen. I even got my sister in law reading here who is going through a bit of a bad time with her husband my brother.
If things get heated now I just withdraw myself and the kids from it, I dont bother pleading for an end or of trying to shame him and appeal to his better nature because I know from bitter experience that is like flogging a dead horse. Hen seems not sure of his self or his ability to get away with his previous shit, I know he is still capable and I dont forget it….nor do I let him if he even looks like starting. I know some day some pretty girl will turn his head, Im not stupid, I know there is a shelf life to our marriage and that at any given moment a new door could open for him in the shape of some naive woman or other, difference is I dont care, yes it be sad, family splitting and marriage ending but it wont be the end of the world as it once would have been, I will ” pull another file” and recall his crueler side and that is what I will think as opposed to the faux lover he pretended to be.
In the meantime getting the debts and house sorted, laying foundations for another life that doesnt revolve around him.
It was advice from here from Oxdrover, Matt and Erin and others I cant recall sorry, that set me on the right track and the brilliant articles here….Oh yea and baggage reclaim!!
Anyway this article was brilliant, rang a few bells for me.
We can’t fight them in court but at least we can expose them to potential victims and I did it. I sent an e-mail to a potential victim that he was trying to lure on the internet. The girl was about to leave her country pact her staff and come to meet him, but my e-mail put her thinking twice and she decided not to” and end up the relationship with him”
This is a very good article with lots of common sense and the principles and principal involved are sometimes of STAGGERINGLY HUGE proportions.
Many times the one we are fighting has OUR assets, or their own to fight us with and the victim is left destitute of principal and holding desperately on to his/her principles.
Sometimes the victim has given up their principles as well as principal to the abuser, and feels doubly impoverished, or is so emotionally wounded they don’t have the energy to fight it, even if they would or could.
The “crazymaking” done by the psychopath and their dupes is, in many cases, a DELIBERATE attempt to keep the victim so off balance and emotionally depleted that they are unable to successfully take the psycopath to the “mat.”
It is like the the old adage “it is difficult to drain the swamp when you are up to your arse in alligators”—I would add to that, “…and someone sets your pants on fire!”
Thank you for this article! Good sense, and good advice.
Dear Muldoon,
Glad you are still reading here and that you have a “plan”—you talked about “breaking up the family and the marriage” though, honey, in my opinion, your “marriage” and “family” (that includes HIM) is already BROKEN, but I am glad that you have at least emotionally detached somewhat with him.
You know we are here for you, and I do hope you keep on coming here and reading, because the more we know, the stronger we get. Glad you had your sister-in-law come here too. You are in my prayers and thoughts! (((hugs))))
Took my ex to the mat for my daughters life and won that battle. But the toll is an incredible lesson. As most all victims of these P’s have discovered don’t expect any help from “the system”( law enforcement, d.a’s etc.). I tried with my initial discovery of fraud and was called “stupid” by at least 3 different law enforcement officers. I believed my ex was with law enforcement(she has a genuine badge, gun with well worn holders for each. as well as a message on her answering machine stating the same) therefore I’m stupid. She fraudulently represented (and I believed) she had cancer( has a large lump on the back of her neck) therefore I’m stupid. She faked pregnancy( I witnesssed her take a ept into the bathroom and return and watched as it turned positive in front of my eyes (and I believed) therefore I’m stupid. So when “I took her to the mat” for my daughters life and she made false sex abuse allegations against me I was prepared, (I’m not stupid). I had hidden a small digital recorder and caught her stating “if you try to get custody I’ll say you molested()” as well as many other sociopathic insults and comments. Her ex stated” she threatened to do the same to me”.Bottom line I was prepared as anyone could possibly be in a case where you’re required to dissprove a negative. And still these people who would call me “stupid” would persue 2 first degree felonies against me instantaneously costing me an additional $25,000 dollars,my employment on top of my ever mounting custody case charges. The criminal case was dissmissed at preliminary hearing, imagine that, three words can cost YOU TOO so much. All in all come to discover that these people who would label me as “stupid” for believing everything I did based on physical evidence, are complete “idiots” for believing what they did based only upon words( which we all know don’t mean squat coming from the mouths of these P’s). You see these “idiots” had the advantages of fore-warning. I had all documentation of the cancer, pregnancy, police and other frauds. They themselves((as did I)I’m not stupid) had police reports showing that P is such a pathological liar that even after being convicted of impersonating a police officer. Told a police officer that she was one. But the greatest lesson is that much in the same way they are both immune to prosecution. As my ex would often state”go take me to civil court” . And she’s right,and I still might for the principle. And with all evidence I have I’m sure I can get a judgement. Which I’m sure will be more useful as T.P. than as anything written upon it.I would like to propose “THE DOG LICKING LAW” I am so tired of dealing with these “idiots” doing what they do “because they can”. In closing I’ve saved my daughter and in the grand scheme of things thats the most important battle. I can’t decide what to do about the “war”.
Fred:
Thank you so much for writing this article…..
As I read your article…..I felt as if I WAS THAT WOMAN you describe…..
I HAD to take the S ‘to the mat’….I DID have the determination, the will, the want and the means and the smarts to do it….AND be successful.
NO…..it wasn’t easy, YES, I did dedicate several years to it….was it worth it….YESYES>YES!!!!
For several reasons.
I’m not sitting here healing AND destroyed.
I had a point to prove to my children…..You can’t treat people this way and get away with it.
A Sociopathic drug dealer doesn’t live the ‘happy’ life they portray….they lose……..in the end…..they lose their family and their assets…..the respect and love they once were given…..all for a portrayal of who they’d like to be, yet NOT work for it….as we are all capable.
I knew it would divert me from my C and stroke situation and I used it to catapult me into strength……I fought for my health and my future….simultaniously.
One helped the other…..
I fought to teach my children…..right is right and wrong is wrong.
The key factor for me…..WE HAD ASSETS…I had something to go after. I HAD to do this…..for our future.
I knew he would cancel my health insurance…..and I knew I was going to need ‘something’ as a backup….if I got sick again.
I wasn’t afraid of dying…..either by him….or my illness.
ONCE I made that decision……it was like a rocket ship was behind me! Dying is a fear we all have…..when I removed that fear…..there was nothing going to stop me!
I had to model to my kids….that it may look bleak…..but we CAN recover and move forward.
I knew about myself…..I knew that if I was sick AND destitute…..wondering where the next meal would come from and how I was going to keep a roof over my head……THAT WOULD KILL ME……so I felt….I had no other choice.
I knew I could attack our assets…..I learned….possession is 99.99% of the law…..so I kept posession of everything of value….he’d take it….I’d take it back! If ordered by a judge to give it up….I would have…..but it was going to be up to him to remember what I had in my possesion and ask for it…..and that would cost him money to do…..I put HIM in the postion of having to determine if it was ‘worth’ asking a court for….
I continued to be ‘upstanding’ and paid all bills…..went to great lengths to do this…..scared the shit out of me……I maxed out MY CC’s to do this…..
The more I cash advanced…….the more determined to get the assets I was…..
I didn’t do anyting that was ‘nasty’ in the eyes of the court….I didn’t cancel car policies, I didn’t stop paying his CC or cancel them…..I didn’t drain bank accounts…..I froze them.
He did all of the above, as if he was being tricky….I let him believe he was….and didn’t balk or bitch and complain…I let it go….cuz I knew it would haunt him in the end….in court…with the final settlement! He wanted me to bitch and moan….and cry victim…..I NEVER DID. I stuck to factual, harmful evidence…..towards the assets AND our children….I let him think he won some battles…..but there really is a reality between winning them and fantasizing about winning them…..fantasize away homey!
I protected MYself…..
Oh, don’t think I was Mary Poppins……NO, NO…….
I played the Sociopath game, I studied it…and I worked it…..I stepped in and out of Sociopath mode…..but controlled sociopth….I kept a balance. I planted seeds and nurtured them…..I played HIS evil game….but under MY RULES!
THAT was the difference between us….he coulnd’t control it…..I chose to use the sociopaths skills he had taught me….against him!
I counter controlled him…..and I worked within the law. And I used my attorney to do this.
I made decisions that were hard…..I fired 1 firm and one private attorney…..because it was clear they didn’t ‘get’ my plan of opperation of attack. These cases are NOT black and white…..they ARE a chess game. You must KNOW the sociopath and move accordingly. This takes the help of an attorney who ‘get’s it’. Or they won’t do the job required.
Once we appear underhanded….like them…..a judge looks at both sides as ‘equal schmucks’…..and a victim is not heard…..because your now just as bad as him and it’s a scrap. I learned valuable lessons on self control and patience….VALUABLE!!!!
I planted seeds that threw him off balance…..through my attorney……
I requested a deposition…..only to throw him off balance with the conniving questions that I had my attorney ask…..the more he thought he’d been caught….the more off balance he became….the more he tried to hide from HIS attorney….HE didn’t give me credit of having FACTS….not just ‘words’.
He discounted me……and that was a fatal error.
I studied ‘where’ I had come from….and how I got to today…..along with his behaviors…..reactions….actions…..and everything I could……about HIM……
AND I knew how to attack…..I knew he would selectivly disclose things to HIS attorney…..and I created a ‘rif’ between them publicly in the courtroom…….by disclosing the things he hadn’t. Big facts.
I knew how he would portray himself……and I exposed the truth….via facts. Solid, hard, documented facts.
I’ve lived my life having NO skeletons he could expose….and the reward to me, in this situation…….was I didn’t fear anything. He and no one else….’had’ nothing on me.
I continue to live my life this way!
This alone….was a huge factor in counter controlling him…..all the acusations were just hot air…..how mentally ill I was……show me the money honey…..all the psych wards I had been in….show me the money honey….all the money I drained out of our accounts…..show me the money honey….
back it up…..or shut up! It’s just smoke….this is what they do…..try to put us and keep us on defense….we must remain on OFFENSE!
He couldn’t…..because it was all his fantasy…..it was his projections on me…..
I didn’t get caught up in each false ‘fact’ he threw out…..I took the offense…..
With an S….we could defend ourselves till the cows come home…….switch it up…….and go offensive…..and strike with your facts and documentation….don’t participate in his whirlwind, tiring tornado game…..take control! No one likes to hear small time bickering….ears close…..it’s OUR job to keep interest in the court….from the judge…the final decider…..OR his attorney…..by our actions and facts and documentation, presentation and organization….
we need our ‘ations’ in order!
In the end……another ‘benefit’ I received from taking the S to the ‘mat’…….was I showed him….I’m no shrinking violet……and if your gonna mess with me…..ya better think twice…..cuz i’ll keep on fighting and eating you for dinner with every step you take! Until I die.
He’s ‘gone away’……but I remain vigilant…..I will lay under the rock waiting to strike him again……when he least expects it…..if I need to…..
BUT……I’m pretty sure…..he’s got my point now!
If he brings it on again……by my actions thus far, I think he knows now……he better have a ‘good one’……
I WILL FOLLOW THROUGH….each and every time!!!!
Don’t jump in the ring unless your gonna remain IN THE RING….until the last bell sounds! Ya gotta stay the long haul.
I do think it’s important for each of us to weigh the costs…..
NO….they will never pay up even if ordered……BUT if we can attack assets….and ‘seize’ them….that would be worth thinking about.
I wouldn’t suggest taking on the fight….just to fight….
there is a price to pay.
BUT……don’t let them intimidate and starve you out of what is rightfully yours!!!
STAND UP and GO FOR JUSTICE!!!
The s would push my facts aside by saying to a judge…..
SHE CAN GET ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING SHE WANTS……
Judges generally don’t dismiss facts….documented facts…..and this judge told him…..Sir…I can’t even get the police to do what I want…..so, as much as your wife may enjoy the credit given with her follow through with her claims…..I believe you have no credibility sir!
That has become my mantra……and has provided me many many moments of laughter in the process……each time I ‘win’……my Gf’s say……it’s because EB can get anyone to do anything she wants……
Bottom line…..we can protect ourselves legally, it can be done…..and I encourage anyone with something to ‘gain’ to evaluate the ‘costs vs gain’……
AND TAKE EM TO THE MAT!!!!
Right is right and wrong is wrong!!!!
Oh yeah…..
It didn’t help him one bit…..when he stated to me….as he left my house one day…..
And I was in treatment for C…..
“IM GONNA TAKE YOU TO THE CLEANERS”.
WTF….what does one do with that statement????
I said to him with a smirk…..
GAME ON!
Dear EB, I still think about that old country and western song called “The Winner” about 2 guys in a bar, an older one talking about being a WINNER to the younger guy who wants to be a WINNER. The older guy points out that he had an ear bitten offr in a fight, but he bit off both the other guy’s ears soo he was THE WINNER, and one eye is gouged out, but he got both the other guy’s eyes, so he was a WINNER, and so on down the line, bones broken, stab wounds, stays in the hospital and so on, but sometimes even if we WIN by putting the psychopath to the mat, we pay such a price in our own pain for doing it that we end up pretty well beaten up.
I think the BENEFIT vs RISK ratio has to be very well studied.
As you and most everyone here know, I have hired an attorney to fight my P-son’s up coming parole hearing, and just in the PREPARATION of that foot-locker full of letters to make some sense out of them that the attorney could understand what they meant (my hard and fast DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE that P-son is a monster of vast proportions who intended to kill me) upset me no end, threw me into a tail spin, or CORRECTION, I LET IT THROW ME INTO A TAIL SPIN. I ALLOWED it to throw me into a stress-filled tail spin. I’m finally out of the tail spin, but even as hard as I tried to keep it LOGICAL, there was STILL (even after all this time) enough emotional baggage there that it did get heavy, just reading over those words again, and actually SEEING for the FIRST time, things I hadn’t even seen before when I was reading those letters in the past. SEEING JUST HOW EVIL my P-son is, more evil than I had seen before. Also, admitting to myself that I had ALLOWED all this evil to flourish right before my eyes and kept on BELIEVING. Maybe I will have gotten a final closure, God, I hope so!!! out of this this time, and hopefully, I can keep him from even going to the parole board again for the next five years–but whether he gets parole (I sincerely doubt it) or whether he gets a 5 year set off, I will survive, knowing I did the BEST I COULD have done to protect myself. FRankly, if I didn’t think my very physical life was at stake, I wouldn’t have done this at all, but since I do know that my life is at stake, I’ll keep on trucking and spend the last dollar I have if it takes that, to hire attorneys to do our best to keep him in prison.
I think there is HUGE value of what we learn about ourselves….going through the process….
I don’t think any one us comes out the other side…..the same…..
I think this is the gift we receive along with the process.
I didn’t want to be sick and destitue……
Sick…..I could only marginally control……destitute I felt control over……
Good going girl…..we gotta do what we gotta do….ya know!