Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
ALT mom said
“He would rather see me fail so that he can have his new wife take over. I’m sure this has happened a thousand times to women like me.”
Yes I think my ex would luurve me to fail as a mother, so his new live in partner take over! I was a bit of a basketcase after the breakup, but thanks to this site I am “onto him” and stronger now.
His new partner is only to keen to get involved in helping my ex out with his kids. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that she cares about my son but she doesn’t realise right now, is that all this step-mum of the year stuff is only going to earn her a great big sucker-punch to the heart from him.
Like yourself I had a lawyer who was crap, but for different reasons – she was very inexperienced and my situation seemed too-hard-basket for her, so she tried to get me to settle for what I thought was unfair. Thankfully have found an experienced lawyer who so far is great
So this is my first post; I have been lurking for a while and learning a LOT from you guys. I haven’t had time to read everything ”“ just sort of scan until something or someone’s comment catches my eye because it relates to . . . MY CASE: as Mr. Dunsing says, the victim of a fraudulent relationship. He says, “These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need ”“ usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.” Everything in this statement is true, except the part about providing children. Too old for that, and he had already played that game with Wife 1 and Wife 2 : )
I am now 54, and 6 years ago when I was 48, along came Prince Charming. You all know the story” I fell hopelessly in love (Well I thought he had too, not realizing it was a SICK GAME he had perfected over time!) Next, I caught/confronted him in lies about his marital status (I now understand the game S.’s play ”“ keep Wife 4 in the wings in case Current Victim, hopefully soon-to-be Wife 5, doesn’t pan out.) Devastated, I broke it off, but he turned on his best performance of grief and sorrow, and naturally I took him back. When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE THEM THE FIRST TIME! But did I heed my own advice?? No, I made plans to marry him the minute his divorce was final, ignoring the pleading of family and friends as well as my conscience and MORE lies he told about his past. (I am now trying my best to take the advice of psychologists who say, “Do not blame yourself; these guys are GOOD!!”) I then proceeded to stay in varying states of denial for the next 6 years while he used my good credit to buy cars, a home on the golf course (selling my “cute little condo” I had worked so hard to acquire), timeshare units to travel the world, clothes/shoes (an impeccable dresser he was”), and more STUFF than you can imagine. “Our” debt mounted, although curiously it is all in MY name, but with several get-rich-quick/network marketing schemes up his sleeve, you see, it would all be paid off soon! I would never have to work again (something promised before the marriage that never materialized”).
So I continued to work and hope and resent and try not to nag, as the spending continued and the debt mounted. Now and then I would blow my top, and he would give another academy award winning performance of shame and sorrow and promise to change and make it all better.
Then the day came, the Monday before this past Thanksgiving, when I discovered “her” ”“ the next Current Victim who had taken a place in line. It was inevitable. Sociopaths start seeking out alternative “supply” when marital boredom and financial pressure take hold. I stumbled upon texting and cell phone calls all day, every day for several months ”“ and emails with (wonder of wonders) the SAME EXACT wording used 6 years earlier to lure me in! I told you you would know the story!
So now that I am coming out of the fog, putting the devastation and destruction of my life back together, I am grateful to have found LoveFraud among other books and websites about the subject of this human predator I called my husband. Notably, I like the writings of Sam Vaknin. Recently I ran across something he wrote about a way to “neutralize a vindictive narcissist”, or as Mr. Dunsing says, “TAKE HIM TO THE MAT.” [I LOVE that analogy!!!] Once he was kicked out of the house (it wasn’t pretty”I haven’t raged like that since . . . well, that’s another story)— I had to find a way to 1) get him to sign the divorce papers in my favor; 2) sign a Marital Settlement Agreement giving me all proceeds from the sale of the house; and 3) squeeze as much money out of him as possible to pay off debt, and avoid bankruptcy and foreclosure. THAT is where you find me now.
I soon realized that my confronting and demanding brought out ANOTHER person all together who I had never met ”“ his evil twin!! I read other posts, and I realize I am fortunate that my S. never once turned violent or verbally abusive during our marriage, but this dormant evil twin scares me a bit, giving me the impression that there’s no telling what he’d do.
Going the legal route is really not an option for some of us when “you can’t get blood from a turnip.” I have filed for divorce pro se, and I’m hoping to keep it that way and avoid any attorney’s fees. My S. is in the medical profession (a typical path for the sociopathic/narcissistic personality) and makes plenty of money, which he promptly spends BEFORE paying the IRS, I might add. Still, without my good credit and expert juggling act in keeping the finances all together, he falls helplessly on his face, working paycheck to paycheck, with nothing left over. Here is what I am finding just might work with him, and I’d love to hear others’ opinions about this version of taking them to the mat. Sam Vaknin writes, “The other way to neutralize a vindictive narcissist is to offer him continued narcissistic supply until the war is over and won by you. Dazzled by the drug of narcissistic supply – the narcissist immediately becomes tamed, forgets his vindictiveness and triumphantly takes over his “property” and “territory”. Under the influence of narcissistic supply, the narcissist is unable to tell when he is being manipulated. He is blind, dumb and deaf to all but the song of the NS sirens. You can make a narcissist do ANYTHING by offering, withholding, or threatening to withhold narcissistic supply (adulation, admiration, attention, sex, awe, subservience, etc.).” So far this tactic is working! I have the divorce papers signed in my favor with a signed and filed MSA giving me the proceeds from the sale of the house. I really don’t think he knows what he did because, as Dr. Vaknin says, he “is unable to tell when he is being manipulated. He is blind, dumb and deaf . . .”! I LOVE it!! And I swear I am not a manipulative person, but after everything this idiot put me through, ya gotta know–this is FUN! Now the trick will be to continue this charade for however long it will take to get him to pay me back and get out of debt. Do you think I can last?? He thinks I “miss him” and “there is still a part of me that loves him—; that I “need to feel protected financially and emotionally by going through with the divorce and selling the house—. Mind you, I have NO expectations that he will do the right thing and pay me 1/2 of the house expenses until it is sold, his monthly car payment (in my name, of course), and $21000 in incremental amounts. A divorce decree when there are no children involved is hard to enforce. Or as Mr. Dunsing writes, judgments against sociopaths may not be worth the paper they are written on.
I am curious if anyone else has used this tactic of “continued narcissistic supply” with any success, or if you think it can even work as a way of taking him to the mat. Let me know, and thank you for letting me share!
PS”I say that I want to avoid the legal route, but you bet I would like to expose some of the fraud after this is all said and done, i.e., go for the jugular! In particular, I want to expose the false military claims. It is just WRONG when there are men and women who have worked long and hard and legitimately earned military awards and honors, even died in pursuit of these ”“ and along comes some sociopathic jackass who stakes THEIR claim and gets away with it. Besides, what my S. has done and will continue to do is clearly against the law.
Dear Nowwhat,
Sam Vakin is a psychopath himself, there is a great documentary film about him called “I, Psychopath” I’ve seen it on the net and there is a link here on Love Fraud some where.
The man makes his living by writing about being an N, but he is a cruel HOAX in my not so humble opinion.
Trying to “out fox” a psychopath is like trying to play with dynamite in my opinion. Having LOST THAT WAR more than once, I speak from experience on that. PLAY YOUR CARDS CLOSE TO YOUR CHEST and don’t give him the time of day. If you get out with your skin intact, I think you will be fortunate. Others may disagree with me, but NO CONTACT, is the best way to start healing yourself. HE is beyond hope of any kind and will stab you in the back any chance he gets, and rememeber, he has (most likely) told the next victim what a crazy biatch you are. That’s part of how they get the next victim to help them fight you! The next victim is going to save them FROM YOU! Yea, ain’t that a hot dog!? LOL
Good luck and I am glad you have been lurking here for some time, there’s some great information here and some wonderful lpeople. God bless.
I would love to take my Psycho to the mat, and I also would love to put a bomb in her car and watch her blow up.
The web they weave is so intrinsic, that by the time it’s over you are the psycho, and they are home free, in search of another victim.
You cannot win with a psycho, they go to great lengths to screw you, they lie, and lie some more, they convince everyone that you are the sick one, you lied and cheated and took their money, and poor little them, they were so good to you.
Somehow these psychos are very good convincing other
victims that you are the sick one not them, and they get away with it. Best thing is to let Go and Let God,
and hope that Judgement Day they will have their day in Hell,
because you really can’t win.
Psychos find good people, with good hearts, those that will walk an extra mile to help someone out, they find your weakness, lure you in, and then the mask begins to fall,
by then it’s usually too late, charming, beautiful, sexual beings, that make your life a living fricken hell, demons.
Read the blog, educate yourself, expose them, run and never look back.
Dear Now what, Nooooo, noooo, nooo.. to Dr. Sam’s advice. He works on spelling out strategies for empaths to “relate” and have a “relationship” with spaths etc. As if they can be “handled”. As long as you don’t expect honesty, or loyalty, or anything from them, he claims the PSN’s can make good partners. Just realize that you are a worthless object and that they cannot and will never ever love you.
What a bargain.
Sure, you can win with a snake, but not by getting in the pit with it. I genuinely gave mine “supply” for 27 years, the real deal, I loved him and thought he was worthy of my respect. Damn near lost my sanity trying to be his “good wife”.
There is no bargaining with, handling, managing, of a PSN. Remember, they are hollow, empty. And somebondy else’s supply will do them just as well. If they “need” you, they will hate you and try to destroy . If they don’t need you, they will try to destroy you just for sport.
But yes, they can be taken to the mat. Mine is not done yet, but I have him in a very tight box. And I will win.
I will be cross examining the new lady freind, and I know the new “relationship” is a scam, as all his computer porn is young boys having their way with each other, and as this woman is highly religious (works for the church) and he has suddenly rediscovered “the Catholic Church.” (Hopefully his interest in young boys is not part of that)
(Matt, Henry et al,…no issues with the gender thing, just the living the lie part)
In any event- he will NOT want me messing with his new victim. There is some kind of big scam there and he will want to protect it. – And I can taste victory. Like Fred said, often when they lose they lose spectacularly. Yummmy.
As Erin B says, you can fight back by finding your own inner “spath”..but the so called Dr. ( he is not ) Sam is a quack and not reliable advice. IMHO.
My heart goes out to the LF’ers here with P offspring. Cannot imagine what could be worse. I dodged a bullet on that one. Your strength and genuine caring is a model for the rest of us.
May you find peace and love, and to the “freinds” that don’t get it…well hopefully they don’t find out the hard way what these creatures are. They are lucky, but ignorant, as we all were once, of the ways of a P.
Oxy wrote “HE is beyond hope of any kind and will stab you in the back any chance he gets, and rememeber, he has (most likely) told the next victim what a crazy biatch you are.That’s part of how they get the next victim to help them fight you! The next victim is going to save them FROM YOU! Yea, ain’t that a hot dog!? LOL”
Ain’t that the truth! I have never seen it spelled out like that but it’s true!
Do you think it’s a coincidence that his new live-in lover is a 3rd year law student?
Now that’s so interesting about this Sam Vaknin character… Thanks for enlightening me, anita & oxy. I had read that he was himself a professed psychopath/narcissist/sociopath, and I have wondered exactly how that would work. If they cannot recover or change (and I DO believe that’s true), how then can they offer advice without having some self-serving angle?? (Have you seen what he is charging on the internet for his book??? I guess that’s one angle.) Still, a few of the things I’ve read that he has written ring true about my experience with my narcissistic husband.
THANK YOU for keeping me on track with your comments! I have several friends who keep asking me, “you’re not going to go back to him, are you??” TRUTHFULLY, I am soooo gone! I can’t wait for this divorce to be final in April. I know I should probably cut my losses and forget any money he owes me for credit card and other debt. But that would likely mean filing bankruptcy… I don’t know at this point; takin’ it one day at a time. Today I’m trying to figure out how to cover the car payment so the auto-debit doesn’t bounce and screw up my credit. I was recently preapproved up to a certain amount to buy a new place after “the house on the golf course” sells; so it’s soooo important to preserve my payment history. I’m still waiting for his “check in the mail” – HA! Allthough, so far he has come through with money owed – just LATE (always an excuse, you know…)
I want to add that I have only spoken to him on the phone 3 times since November, have not laid eyes on him since I kicked him out, nor do I want to – all communication about our divorce (what he perceives as worming his way back into my life) has been via text messages and emails. Since I am filing pro se (without an attorney) and it is working so far, there are loose ends . . .
It’s not easy taking a sociopath to the mat. I suspect, by the time it’s all over, it will cost me at least $10k. I’m not wealthy. I will have to work extra for awhile to afford it. But I can’t afford not to do it, when my son’s well being is at stake.
I already have primary custody. But visitation is very generous; two week day visits (no overnights) and every other weekend (including overnights).
My son sleeps with his father, often naked, even though he’s got his own Thomas the Tank Engine toddler bed. First it wasn’t comfortable and the S blamed me for getting our son a real bed at home. Then he promised to get him another bed…that was a year ago and Thomas is still there. Now he just lets him sleep with him without excuse, except when he has a new woman over night. I say new, cause since his girlfriend of year broke up with him (yes, I’m to blame for that as well) he can’t hold one down but doesn’t hesitate to have someone new over to help him care for the child.
My son reports being left in the car. Then when confronted, the S lied in front of the child that it didn’t happen. When he realized I believed the child, he changed his story and pretended he forgot. Our son didn’t want to go with him after that.
My son has seen the movie 9….yes, Tim Burton’s PG-13 post- apocalyptic tail of 9 rag doll’s fighting monster robots in the future to save the essence of humanity since all humans had been annihilated. Now, my four year old son has many questions and concerns about dying.
My son has a peanut allergy and all his father feeds him is prepackaged foods, pizza and McDonalds. He comes home every time itchy and irritable.
School is noticing a change in my son’s behavior. Several teachers have spoke with me about his “impulsive” and “defiant” behaviors. My son was not like that until recently. In fact, he was the exact opposite. Could be a stage…but they don’t seem to think so. They track his allergy symptoms, as do I, and they seem to be worse.
So, although I suspected for nearly a year the S was modifying the PDF drug results he sends me every month, I ignored it until my son started to show signs of distress. I confronted the S for further substantiation of the tests AND that he’s in therapy, as he’s supposed to be. He refused. And still refused at the conference meeting this week.
Since the testing and the therapy are in the custody order we both signed (yes my attorney drafted so apparently he and his attorney don’t think it’s really binding), he’s being charged with contempt. AND since he thought he didn’t need to bring anything to the conference to disprove my allegations (I’m just being controlling), it will now go to a hearing and a full custody evaluation, including psychological testing, will take place.
My PTSD symptoms, mostly resolved prior to the conference, are moderately back. I dream messed up dreams, I can’t stop mulling the conference events around in my head (even though it went rather well), I have a low grade fever (happens with me and stress), am irritable, distracted by the whole issue and find myself on this site searching for relief and support far more than I have been.
But this too shall pass…and hopefully with a positive outcome for my son!
banana,
Sounds somewhat familiar! Just keep in mind, he can ASK for whatever he likes. Status quo is hard to break, so his chance of getting more visitation is unlikely.
Allow Domestic Relations to deal with support and expense issues. All you can do there is keep accurate records and engage the system.
Stay focused on what’s truly of importance to the child’s well being. Ignore his tactics to upset you. Use your attorney only when necessary and do as much leg work yourself as you can to save fees. Don’t waste time getting the attorney to understand what he is, that just costs money and they’re not a therapist. If your attorney doesn’t already get it by now, they won’t.
Remember, you can’t control his actions, only your reactions. Ask yourself if what you’re dealing with is a real threat to your or our child’s safety and if the answer is “not really”, don’t let the past drive you to feel more threatened then you probably are!
Oh…and his new chicki…we’ll see her on here soon enough…talking about how he exploited her to get at you!
Namaste
Duped
banana,
This is second round…total costs associated with this BS have yet to come…and probably won’t be final even in this round. I’m fortunate I have a good career…but that’s money that should go to college for the kid…not the attorney’s kid’s!
I settled out of court…satisfied to have it over and for him to not have primary custody as he requested. I’ve waited to go second round until more of precedence had been established and problems were becoming more than eminent.
I have no idea where he’s getting the money from to fight me! Probably crying to family and getting them all to pitch in to save him from his monster ex who’s trying to take his son from him!