Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
DONNA<
Thank you so much for posting this article !!!!!!
I actually sent it to my lawyer yesterday and asked him to read it – without charging me of course.
Then maybe he will understand I am not crazy !!!!
MATT –
Sending hugs and kisses and all things good out to you !!!!!!!!
Note to all …
I am at $30,000.00 in lawyer fees over two years now……
NO divorce yet …No support agreement……NO visitation agreement…………………NOTHING !!!!!
Letters , meetings, delays,,,meetings with judges ………….but nothing for me and my kids YET !!!!!!
Newlife:
How is your daughter doing after her surgery?
Remember….there IS a light at the end of this mess….there is!!!
You’ve gotta remain strong and seek the BEST advice possible from the most knowledgable attorney for YOUR case.
I remember he’s doing the ‘standard’ break you routine…..are you still in the home? How about the beach house? What about his BBQ business….did that fold?
What’s your attorneys ‘outlook’ at this point?
Keep your head up girl……you need the strength and persistance!!!
Bananna:
A person on the ‘outside’ either ‘gets it’ or they dont!!!
Attorney’s included.
The longer it goes on……the longer we become at risk for looking like a culprit……this is why it’s essential we remain focused on the goal and stay in control…..AT ALL TIMES.
Each time he changes attorney’s….and don’t think this will be his last time…it ‘starts’ over….in a sense…..
It the agreement was working prior…..then resist the change.
You’ve got to send him a message the whole way through….this message has to be a stern……NO….your NOT GOING TO MESS WITH OUR CHILD!!!! AND I WILL SEE TO IT YOU DON”T!!!!
This comes through your behaviors and reactions to his moves…….
YOU set the tone….throught your attorney…
You comply to a T with what is set in place…..and it’s up to him to modify it LEGALLY……and let a judge agree or disagree…..
Remember, your child is young…..set the pace….because it’s gonna be a long time coming girl…..
If he wants to bring it in front of a judge…..let him…..but this childs life isn’t going to be yanked from whim to whim for ANYONE! You wnat stability for your baby…..and this needs to be clear to a judge.
RE: support or childcare AND visitation……you must separate the two…..in the eyes of the law…..they have no connection…..
You’ve been paying it……keep on paying…..THIS WILL BITE HIM IN ASS eventually….but you need the stamina to not let this part drag you down.
Visitation……Bring it to the judge…..HIS attorney (nor yours) don’t have the right to change anything….UNLESS AGREED UPON by both party’s….
It is always better to settle……THIS POINT is where the Cluster B effects the case…..there is NO agreeing with them…..everything is always a battle…..
THIS IS WHY WE NEED TO BE DILEGENT AND PERSISTENT AND show them……YOU DON”T SCARE OR INTIMIDATE ME….I’m going to do the best for our child REGARDLESS of YOU!
Clean out the rif raf…..don’t worry about things you can’t control….like where he’s getting the money….because, this will sort itself out…..it always does……would YOU dig yourself a financial hole for a man…..and suffer the financial consequences?…….me either darlen….
So….let that all go….
Stick with the facts, don’t cloud your mind with the emotional side…..this is the hardest part!!!
Caroline said “the legal system is sociopathic and for the most part, so are lawyers.”
I think it helped me to have an attorney who was (at very least) able to pull on her sociopathic inner self for me……
If we find the meager one’s…..the ones with the ‘good reputations’…..they don’t want to ‘scrap’…..the want to settle and encourage you to do that ……at every step…..conceede….
Again….a balance is in order……you need an attorney who has ‘been there before’…..one who is aware of the tactics and behaviors of a toxic abuser……realizing that things can’t be settled….because a toxic always changes the ;plan’.
I’m not so sure….if you can identify an attorney who has the S traits themselves……then that might be the way to go!
But again…..ya gotta know how to ‘handle’ and ‘steer’ them….to work in YOUR best interest.
See….when ego’s colide…..it becomes a ‘win’ game…..and ya want an attorney who has the ‘win’ attitude…..but with a balance.
banana,
Duped gave you some very good advice. Remember that he is still trying to manipulate you emotionally AS WELL as drain you financially.
The 50/50 custody & all the changes is a definate “blow” where he hopes to trigger you on an emotional level. He knows that you will have a reaction to this.
And of course there is the bonus for him that if he has the child more he will pay less child support in the long run. Or no child support at all.
There comes a time when I am sure that you get frustrated even with your own attorney. Because you are paying out all this money and not getting any closer to a settlement. (or so it seems) But you are getting closer. Keep reminding yourself of that.
Chances are that your attorney doesn’t understand the full concept of your x’s disorder. And so you always have to keep that in mind. She doesn’t know what she is dealing with, YOU do. And so now is the time to really focus on whats in the BEST interest of your child. And let her know that this is your concern. Over and over again. Your concern for your child. Take all of the emotional content, and your frustration with your ex out of your conversations with her. Talk to her only when you are calm.
Is it possible to get a mediator?
Would it make sense to set up a call with one of the experts listed as a reference on this site and your attorney and help her to develop a strategy that will win what is needed for you and your daughter?
If the attny doesn’t get it, she might play into the game without knowing better. However, a stategy consult might prove beneficial. Why not develop a strategy with an expert on board who understands how the disorder behaves?
I dont’ know where you are but there are come counties in some states where there is less tolerance for this kind of thing from the bench.
A lot of this depends on the climate in which you are trying to get your divorce. And the standing of your attorney in the legal community there too.
I have known people who went as far as to hire a seperate attorney to negotiate for the interests of the child. That makes it two against one.
It just sounds like the strategy you are using isn’t working to get results. I’d look at how to change that. If you can, it might lead in a new direction and if you are stuck you are stuck and you will have to slog it through.
Either way, people are here for you.
What is considered by the court contemptible is a powerful ally sometimes. Was in my case.
And finally, if you are going around in circles and the only thing that is happening is the attorney is getting paid, there is no shame in taking a review and consultation from someone else – just the way you’d get a second opinion from a Doctor.
Law and Medicine are not exact sciences.
But the support community at LF is constant.
Hang in there.
banana,
If you feel your attorney doesn’t understand what you are dealing with, maybe now is a good time to get one who does. There are attorneys who “get it”. And, if your ex is forcing the process to start from scratch, do you have anything to lose by making a change now?
I think having an attorney that is experienced with these types of issues will help minimize the extent of a drawn out process. If they’re good, they should have some techniques for expediting BS and getting it out of the way. Many attorneys just plain old suck! If yours does, get a new one!
Duped
BTW – I changed attorneys at the end of the first round in preparation for the expected second I am now in. When I changed, I intentionally got a male attorney; the last being female who not only cost high dollar, but made BIG mistakes.
My rationale for a male attorney is that my S feels confident he can manipulate women by engaging female compassion and pity. My male attorney is almost two feet taller than my S and has a calm command about him. I think it helps put the stress of intimidation back on him…and I feel safe that if he gets out of control, he’ll be in BIG trouble!
It felt good when my attorney raised his voice at his attorney. I felt defended and protected!
Duped
This is the point of why it’s important to ‘KNOW YOUR SOCIOPTH’.
They are all different….but alike….
I knew mine would hate it to go up against a woman. It would have been in his best interest to also have a woman represent him….(and he did, but was fired because she expected honesty from him….and didn’t get it)…..
I started with a firm….realized that a firm has other agendas…..and I wouldn’t recommend an attorney from a firm…..they are ruled by the ‘firm’….and don’t have the individual leeway to ‘fight’ accordingly. They have a reputation to upkeep….
Then I went to a male attorney, who I was pretty sure he ‘got it’…….well…..unless your convinced they get it…..they don’t got it.
(think of the peeps in general, you speak to that you just KNOW they got it)….same goes for attorneys….they will participate in the conversation on Sociopaths….because they are familiar….they will make one statement and you’ll know…..
So, after much back and forth….in my mind…..and meeting with her….and leaving her office…..I was CERTAIN….she ‘got it’……it was a chance….more money, another retainer…..and money I DIDN”T HAVE! But…..Key is…..If I hadn’t of switched…..I have no doubt…things would have turned out WAY differently.
The new attorney was very tiny….petit…..weighed maybe 80lbs wet….but a little red headed firecracker…..
See….my Sociopath viewed her as a small stature….and wasn’t intimidated…..but what she ‘lacked’ in heighth…….she possessed in balls!
She didn’t put up with ANY of his shit…..SHE set the stage….SHE was the LEAD attorney……
She crept up on him and played him……left him shocked and confused……
All because HE UNDERESTIMATED HER!
He thought he could charm her….(she was female afterall)…..He thought she’d be mesmerized by his good looks and high falutant stories…..
You see…..he deals with all people the same….charm and charisma…..hooking them in by talking about himslef and his percieved achievements…….BUT……I warned her in my consultation…..I gave a playdown……and he did exactly what I said he’d do…..
At the time I retained her, he was representing himself….so he got to speak with her and attempt to ‘play’ her directly….and try to play me through her……she played along and allowed him to make his bed…..think he was ‘winning’…..then snuck out from under the rock and ejected her venom in to him….harshly….
Piled on legal crap and motions on him…..letters and just flooded him.
She didn’t want to deal with him directly…..so she forced him into getting council.
He already wrote and played the broke card……so she flooded him out……how did you pay for your attorney? He couldn’t get a ‘big’ guy in town…..he went budget to keep up his broke front…..got a Real estate attorney….WTF????? The S was this poor guys first family law case….and probably his last……
But…point being….I wanted to ‘sneak up’ on him with a meak and mild looking FEMALE attorney and allow him to get cocky…..and complacent…….and stupid…..
Then strike hard…..
Which is how it went down.
They are all different….Know your sociopath….
It’s not always better to have the big burly guy……..