Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
Dang I lost my big post!
I am sooooo sorry for those of you having this whole other…phenomena(children) which I don’t have and CANNOT IMAGINE the sense of protectiveness, defensivness you must have amidst/along with the unconscionable(sp?) terror of all this.
Well…
I am in sociopatic mode…but I have a conscience. Yep all day yesterday I realized I am a sociopath and vascilated back and forth if it was me and not him. BUT believe me…it was HIM! I want to do the RIGHT thing, I am not a user. But I can be somewhat of a monster going after a monster in the aftermath. I am a detective and I can be calmly calculating. It is never to late to learn chess. I always thought I would learn some day.
I am awed and overwhelmed by the amount of wisdom in the above posts. Every bit of info is worth a million in experience and insight.
“get it ” is operable across the board!
WISDOM, GETTING IT, ACTION
The day I got my attorney, I had no time to think, so I just grabbed. I was in damage control and I needed advice!
And in the moments and days following, I was so terrified, I needed to feel that he “got it”. I wanted to cry out ” I AM SCARED”. I don’t think he gets it. I Have yet to feel that from him.
My S did something the bank “hadn’t dealt with”. So we need to be ready for anything in their box of tricks.
I will never get the satisfaction of his prosecution, due to his status…I will only say the word”international”in his case (I THINK) (I am not sure WHERE he is!). So I will cut my losses, I know when to quit.
p.s.
I’m NOT a soc, just got confused yesterday.
Oh remembering…
LF has been like electricity with the WATTS UP! I feel like we are all walking around with our heads all lit up. Where as I for sure was completely in the dark before being…HELLO…..woke up!
Oh crap. I’ve been trying to get a post out for over an hour and then hit a wrong key and lost it!
I’ve been alienated from my kids for almost 10 years now. The last contact was about a year ago when my daughter texted asking permission for my XH’s new wife to adopt them(all three kids–20, 18, 16) My answer?–well I would only do that after we had all attended counselling together. The new wife(who actually wasn’t his wife at the time)jumps on the phone and puts me on speaker phone. I didn’t even know she existed due to the alienation. I can hear my kids and X in the background. What F*king nerve! After all they have done, this shouldn’t have surprised me.
My X certainly displayed anti social behaviour but I believe my kids were just casualties in his revenge against me for leaving him.
In reading some of the last post in this thread my heart started racing in recalling the bizarre chain of events that lead to the alienation.
In 2004, three years after I left and likely 5 years of my kids being brainwashed, I was looking for the 4th lawyer to help me get my kids help and reconnect with them. Settlement was very low on my agenda, but the previous lawyers kept focusing on it. The first lawyer even said to me,”kids are hedonistic little bastards at this age, just leave them”. I promptly moved on to the next lawyer.
By chance I came across across a link on Parental Alienation Syndrome(PAS). Unfortunately my kids were then all at a legal age to “decide for themselves who they wanted to live with or even have contact with” and the psychological damage was imprinted.
I don’t recall anyone ever mentioning PAS on this site and want to make sure everyone(especially those just beginning)going through divorce/custody is aware of this evil game. The sense of relief just knowing I wasn’t crazy or a bad bad parent that my children were rejecting was very helpful in helping ME if nothing else at that time.
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/article/602350
That is just one site. There are plenty others. Like any new “trend” people will try to get a piece of the pie. So I would also caution trusting just any lawyer who gets PAS.
The lawyer I finally ended up with had actually stopped taking such cases because they had become to painful for her as well. I somehow appealed to her sense of empathy and justice the second time I approached her and she consented.
Sadly she was not able to have anything ruled regarding counselling and reintroduction with my kids. The ruling judge did recommend a counseller familiar with PAS and said he would make the introductions for us. He looked straight at my ex and said,”if you don’t facilitate this reintroduction with their mother, you are going to see your children on some psychiatrists couch one day.” Of course he found reasons to not facilitate.
I’ve given up most hope.
I do want to stress how important it is to get the right lawyer as soon as possible when you have children that could be mind f*ked by the other parent.
This tactic was most commonly used by women against men in the past. Men are catching up big time. What a screwed up society we live in…Sheesh.
Anyways I hope this helps somewhat.
Blessings to All.
Oh dear, in my haste and anxiety I did not say what the new wife said to me when she put me on speaker phone. She pretty much started her introduction by saying how many properties she owned and that she was younger than me and did I have a problem with that. This is all coming at me from left field. I refused to be drawn in by the baiting and kept maintaining that we should all see a counselor. I am sure they wouldn’t have even needed my signature for anything due to my kid’s age. Possibly my son at 16. I was hoping I could “manipulate” them into counseling. No chance. New wife ends by threatening to have her lawyer draw up papers and serve me with them. I said “do what you have to do Ma’am” and hung up. I have not heard a word since.
It has got to be HORRIBLE when the P alienates the children from the non-P parent. Sometimes, the children also turn out to be Ps as well, from both the genetic and the environmental influences in their lives.
No one had to alienate Witsend’s son, and no one had to alienate my P-son from me, they did it themselves, because of their own Pyschopathic traits. Sometimes we think environment is ALL and it isn’t. I have seen chldrenb who were raised by a psychopathic parent who went to great lengths to alienate that child from a NON-P parent and failed. I know that isn’t “research” but I think in the end, each of us makes our own choices. Sure a P-parent can definitely INFLUENCE a child’s alienation from the other parent, but the child must at some point agree to this.
I know it hurts like heck to BE ALIENATED from your own child whether you cut the cord, or they did, it still hurts just as bad.
I used to think that if I didn’t have my children I would be LOST AND NO REASON TO LIVE, but you know, I have plenty of reasons to live, and right now I have “lost” both biological sons, one because he hates me (the P in prison son) and one because I won’t tolerate him lying to me, and still have my adoptive son, but I realize now, that though it would hurt if I lost my adoptive son for any reason at all, I would still go on. Just as I thought my late husband was my “life”—he died and I have gone on. I will GO ON. I can’t base my life on ONLY living for others, I must base it on living for ME.
When I read Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” which he wrote after years in a Nazi prison camp, where he lost EVERYTHING but his life, and barely hung on to that. He STILL found meaning in life, in living, and by golly, if HE CAN DO IT, SO CAN I!!!!!
For a while I read many books written by prisoners of wars and other horrible stories of SURVIVAL and VICTORY over things I can hardly even imagine. I realize that WE ARE OUR BEST RESOURCES and that the things we have, and even the people in our lives, are not indespensible to our survival or for us to prosper, WE ARE!
When all else is gone, we can look to ourselves and our inner strengths and NEVER GIVE UP, never lay down and say “die.” Viktor Frankl survived because he determined he would LIVE just one more day, and each day he survived because he didn’t give up. He talked in his book about others who did give up and who just lay down and died. WE CAN’T GIVE UP! Even if we can’t fight them and over power them, we can still keep LIVING!
PTSD, I admire your fighting for as long as you have, and for trying to get your kids into counseling. It was a hope, albeit in this case, a futile one, but don’t give up hoping that one day they will “see the light” but in the mean time, go on with your life! ((((Hugs))))) and my prayers for your peace.
Ptsd:
Please don’t give up hope. There is alot of time ahead, and their world will open up as they become adults. I am sorry it didn’t work out. You Certainly tried.
In my case, I was afraid to hurt my mom’s feelings to explore a relationship with my father. Then when I wanted to explore at the age of 30(due to therapy), my mother told me she thought he was deceased. I never looked into it further. Recently, he was killed in an accident. For 20 years I could’ve had a relationship. Maybe.
Anyways, life goes on and they may have questions and may want the your truth and your story.
Bridges
Take Care.
Old wounds opened up again here. They seem to just roll into one big bad sore.
Oxy: I just can’t imagine HAVING TO make the decision to cut my kids out of my life completely/forever. I DO understand why you would though. I admire your strength and fortitude.
Angel and Ox: By having no hope, I really meant that I am not initiating contact with my children anymore. I will always be open to them. However, if they did contact me, I would be suspicious and cautious.
I made attempts over those 9 years to keep connected via invitations, emails, IMing at times(I alway knew when dad had entered the room when the conversation ended abruptly), gifts(never, ever received thanks unless it happened-on the rare occasion–to be hand delivered—it usually felt perfunctory), special occasion cards and interest in what they were doing–if I was somehow made aware of it. I missed all their graduations. I actually showed up at my oldest’s graduation only to find she didn’t attend! Another close parent said her son didn’t want to either, but they made him realize how important it was. I would have done the same had I the opportunity!
But that last conversation was enough pain to ever try again. It will be up to them, if and when they can grow away from the hold their father has on them. Brainwashing means it is their psyche that believes it all now. Military trained people can be brainwashed(not easily), but it makes sense that a 9, 10, 11 year old could easily be brainwashed.
My mother(their paternal grandmother)has also been alienated. One of the kickers was that when they did contact her out of the blue…she would get high and mighty and feel so validated that she would start subtly/questioning me.
The XH intercepted mail. He would curse me and threaten to call the cops if I was just bringing a gift to the matrimonial house. It was still my house. He dragged the the settlement process on so the child/custody issues wouldn’t be dealt with and his manipulations could be further cemented.
Sounds so unreal. In the end when I finally retained the right lawyer for the job(she was willing to take a pittance until it was all said and done), HIS lawyer no longer wanted to represent him!
I got my dues for the property, but by then it was way to late to save my kids.
I posted that site earlier, not for the article as much as the side bar of REDFLAGS!!! I experienced them ALL!!! But didn’t have a clue at the time. I was in such a spin for 8 years trying to understand and stay connected with them! No wonder I fell prey to the porn addict (secret of course until I discovered it on my computer and got a huge honkin phone bill) from match.com(haven’t even shared that one here) and the young buck SSSSnake(now in jail).
Kim: I got so comfy in those pillows last night– I was asleep within the hour with book on my chest. I seem to crash and burn every third or fourth night these days.
LIFE WILL GO ON…I HAVEN’T QUIT YET!!
Even through all my adversity until the alienation, I would simply pick myself up and carry on. After that I EXPERIENCED real depression that I would never have understood prior to that. People would say: I wish I could live in the moment like you; I wish I could speak my mind like you; no grass grows under your feet. And I still hear it on occasion, but I still feel depression at times. Not sure what I’m saying with this last paragraph. I was trying to lead into something positive I guess….like empathy for depression.
I was always the one to ‘buck up baby’ & ‘get over it’ . I’ve learned a very hard way that it is not so easy but CAN BE DONE!!! NEVER ONCE DID I RESORT TO DRUGS AND I’M PROUD OF ME FOR THAT. NOT SAYING IT IS THE WAY FOR EVERYONE!!!
I’ve always thought I would be a life long learner…going back to school at 90 if I so chose…BOY AM I LEARNING LESSONS WELL BEFORE THAT…
PS
Can someone tell me how to go about setting my own password please?
I leave it at the shop when I’m home and it’s at home when I’m at the shop.
So I just keep getting new passwords. Sheesh!!!
Dear ptsd,
I cant imagine what pain you have gone through and are still going through. I had to leave my ex husband in 1982, after I was bashed unconscious.Actually this happened in 1980,but it took me 2 more years to summon up the courage to go.
I had no money and had had to give up my teaching job., a my nerves were shot. He practically ran me into the ground,mocked me as a Mum in front of my girls,{then teenagers}, and they very quickly learned from him to treat me disrespectfully{shouting abuse at me, jeering at me, defying me, etc.}. before he hit the bottle agin,[he is an alcoholic} he wasa good husband, very supportive, that all changed when my older daughter left school, ran away from home, and very soon got into sex, alcohol, and prob. drugs as well.After I was beaten up, a lovely male friend,{we werent lovers yet,} picke d me up from my home after my alky husband and my teenagers had left for work and school. he looked after me, took me to Hospital,{I had concussion and a huge lump on my face anda black eye. he wanted to marry me, and was so good to me, but I didnt love him. Meanwhile myyounger daughter was ringing me up at my friends place to say,”You have to come home. Dads crying, the cat has gone on a hunger strike, the dog is howling,”.I eventually, after a few weeks, did go back, against my will. The day I got home, still with a purple and yellow bruise on my face, my ex said to the girls,”Well just have to knock Mum into line again, wont we,girls?It took me 2 years to leave that hell hole, they all 3 of them ganged up on me. I didnt know what I know now, all 3 are spaths.When I DID leave for good, he used to say to them,”Tell Mum, well starve her out! No money for her!’ I went on the dole for the first time in my life, and I survived. I rented a tiny flat, and the girls came for Sunday lunch, but they said they were bored.I VOWED Id NEVER go back, and I didnt!
I think he really alienated them then, prob telling them lies about me.Its now 28 years since I left, and I turned myself into a human pretzel for my girls, I was racke d with guilt for leaving them, and boy, did they cash in on my false guilt!
I met my second darling husband 6 months after leaving my ex. Weve been married over 25 years now, and have a great life, except for my adult daughters. I havent seen the younger one in 17 years,and shes never let me see her 3 kids, not even as babies. My heart was broken. Up to a year ago, I kept up with my older daughter, in order, mainly to see her 3 kids. I allowed her to use me, cream off thousands of dollars from me,always a sob story as to why shed lost yet another job, couldnt pay her rent, etc. Ive had to stop all contact with her for the sake of my sanity, and my bank acount! I know she has never loved me since puberty, and has only used me as “supply”. her husband now has FT custody of the kids, but Ive only seen them once in 18 months {with him,} so he isnt really any more reliable than she was. I have to say, if id known then what I know now, Id never have had kids at all. Lovely up to about the age ofbetween 7-10 years, then I lost them.It must be unbearable for you, and NO_ONE “gets” it unless they have walked in your moccassins.!!STAY STRONGdear, dont let the bastards win! I sincerely hope your kids are NOT spaths, only time will tell if they are or not. Love, and many {{HUGS!!}}} Mama Gem.XX
I am having such an ah-hah moment reading about others here who have had their children alienated from them too. It really helps to take the shame out of being a woman and not having custody of the children. I think taking my son was the ultimate prize as our children are so dear to our hearts–leaves a gaping wound. My heart goes out to all the women here who have suffered over there children, whether they were ripped from them or the children consciously decided to be a party to wickedness, or they are being robbed of their innocence by the sociopath. It all comes down to pain and suffering–and how will we overcome it. Love and Prayers, Breached