Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
wait a minute…the courts actually care if he lies to the victim in child visitation cases. I didn’t think the courts cared cared about lies, and in fact were often conned themselves by the S. I’ve got TONS of emails with the lies that don’t stop. If that will help me if I ever end up in court, then I would sleep better at night. Didn’t think it helped tho…
Thanks Fred for your insight and advice.
Bird:
Ya gotta know how to design the case.
You gotta be in charge….and play it carefully.
It does no good to play like we did in nursery school….with ‘tattle tales’…..it’s about DOCUMENTED ABUSE….
The courts can’t do anything about ‘what ifs’ or ‘potential’ abuses…..
We can’t present this type of case….EVERYTHING HAS TO BE DOCUMENTED….which means the abuse has to have occured.
Unfortunately.
Courts don’t rule on fears….they rule on facts.
We must balance our childrens safety at all times, along with protecting them legally.
I guess…..it depends on the lies…..
As my judge said to my kids…..I am NOT in the business of splitting up families……
My kids response: Your NOT……his abuse did.
That statement made a huge impact on the judge….
Along with all the unloading the kids did on her….statements on WHY they want NOTHING to do with their father….
Not that they don’t like his cooking, or he doesn’t let them play video games…….
It was they didn’t like being choked, hit, taken to drug houses, lied to, fed drugs, belittled, shamed, and then portayed as bad kids…..
The courts want to know why a parent is not capable of co-parenting……
THIS was a good example…..NOT coming from me or the S….BUT from the kids own mouths….straight to the judge’s ears……heartfelt and honest, truthful and raw.
I told my kids I couldn’t afford to spend 100’s of thousands fighting for sole custody……given their age…teenagers….BUT…..I couldn’t also MAKE them see their father if the courts decide this was what was to happen……
That was their choice……
It was a strategy…..to save some $$….because the outcome would be the same….
I made it clear…I understood they wanted nothing to do with him…..and I respected that and thought this was the healthyest way……..but as a financial strategy…..I was goinf to ask for sole custody…..but couldn’t drag it out fiinancially…….we were all on the same page…..
I wouldn’t prevent them from seeing their father…..BUT I also wouldn’t MAKE them see him….if ordered.
It worked….I attained Sole Legal custody of all and it was more of an ‘iincidental’ in the whole divorce process….for me.
I don’t think this is ‘normal’……
He fought harder for the jet ski and cookbooks then his own children…..I wasn’t surprised….the funny thing is….he was awarded the jet ski and cookbooks….AND NEVER CLAIMED THEM…..it was only the fight to fight….the thrillof the win….
It would have been the same for the kids…..if he was given shared custody…..he knew what he had done to the kids,he knew they wanted nothing to do with him…..he just wanted it as a ‘win’….chalk it up…..nothing to do with a relationship with the kids! NOTHING.
So….guess what…..we now have kindleing cookbooks and a fun jetski to enjoy this summer….together….the kids and ME!
He cooked his own ‘custody’ goose on several occasions…..but his last ditch attempt at a settlement was…..give me 80K and I’ll sign the kids over.
THIS WRITTEN offer was submitted to the judge to ‘review’……
He offered to sell me the kids…..
Hmmmmmm…..do you think the judge saw something odd in this????? She never commented…..she didn’t need to!
Sometimes things are best left unsaid.
So bird…..don’t give up….at any point….we win some battles, we lose some battles……but if there is concrete abuse…..PROTECT YOUR BABY!!!!
There are lies….then their are relevent lies….we need to present an honest, uncluttered case of abuse to a judge….
No one can tell you something isn’t relevent or not….only you.
I’d keep ALL of them…..because your child is young…..keep everything….and don’t ever give up!!!
And YES…the courts are conned, just like therest of us……this is OUR responsibility to educate the courts on these abusive behaviors….in an organized, concise manner…..WITH FACTS of abuse.
Dear Bird,
The courts DO in most cases care about how a “father” or “mother” ACTS toward the kids, if The Birdie’s sperm donor is ONLY a sperm donor + lots of lies=NOT a responsible father.
The fact that he has never paid child support is a GOOD indicator, the fact that he left you while you were preg is another TRUTH and FACT…that doesn’t add up to “good father” or father AT ALL in my book.
You KNOW he is NEVER going to BE a good father, and I think if you told him that PAY UP OR NO VISITS that you/Birdie would get NO VISITS, and IN MY BOOK, the further away that psychopath is from the Birdie THE BETTER OFF THE CHILD WILL BE.
In my opinion, you are Still “too nice” and afraid to set some boundaries. You know I love you, Bird, but you also know I “shoot straight”—this guy is NOTHING BUT HOT AIR AND A BAD BAG OF WIND. He wasn’t there for YOU and he won’t be there for BIRDIE either! KICK THIS GUY TO THE CURB, he has no RESPONSIBILITY and therefore in MY MIND,, he has NO RIGHTS to YOUR baby. The Only thing he has “done” for the Baby is to DONATE SPERM and empty promises. He lies to you, what do you think he will do to Birdie! There, my rant is done for the day!!! Love, prayers and ((((hugs))))
Bird:
Do you have an order for child support in place?
If not….get on it girl…
If so….and I will assume he’s not paying…..then …..get on it girl…..
File the necessary docs to enforce support with the state.
The longer you wait…..the longer you prolong the pain and frustration….
The DA’s office don’t take kindly to deadbeat NON PAYING fathers…..
The following is from the HIGH CONFLICT INSTITUTE’s newsletter:
The website is
http://www.highconflictinstitute.com/
Very good information and tips.
I really like their information…..and it applies to child custody or divorcing a S….or toxic or as they refer….a High conflict personality. (HCP)
TARGET OF BLAME
By Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq.
High-conflict disputes have the same basic characteristics, regardless of whether they’re about a friendship, a small amount of money, or even millions of dollars.
There are at least two people involved:
1. High Conflict Person (HCP): This is someone who constantly gets into conflicts and often behaves badly. They blame others and avoid taking responsibility for their own problems or for changing their own behavior. Instead, they focus on the behavior of others. HCPs aren’t just difficult people—they’re the MOST difficult people, because they’re preoccupied with confronting a Target of Blame, and the Target of Blame could be anyone—even you.
2. Target of Blame (TOB): When an HCP blames another person for problems that are more their own making, I call the wrongly blamed person a Target of Blame. The dispute is not really about the Target, although it looks that way at first. It’s primarily about the person blaming the Target—the HCP.
HCPs seek Targets of Blame. Blaming others helps them feel better about themselves. This pattern of blaming is unconscious, meaning that they are totally unaware that it is a problem and that it is their own problem. HCPs are constantly in distress and blaming others. This helps them unconsciously feel safer and stronger. Yet they are totally unaware of the negative, self-defeating effects of this behavior. In a sense they’re blind.
Since HCPs can’t see the connections between their own behavior and their problems, their difficult behavior continues and their conflicts grow. That’s why they’re called “high-conflict” people.
In some instances, only one person appears to be an HCP. Yet many disputes look like they’re caused by both people in the dispute—at least from the outside. In divorce disputes, some families are referred to as “highconflict families” or “high-conflict couples.” This generalization can be unfair. It creates a situation that treats both people in the dispute as equally at fault for the conflict, even if they’re not. The assumption that both parties to a conflict are always at fault can occur in neighbor disputes, workplace disputes, and other settings. You commonly hear, “They just don’t get along.” “They’re both at fault.” “Why don’t you both just stop fighting.” “Just get over it.” This does a great disservice to those who are caught up in dealing with HCPs through no fault of their own. They may get along fine with most people, but have become Targets of Blame for HCPs.
In many ways, HCPs are similar to addicts. We don’t blame the addict’s spouse for the addict’s addiction. We don’t blame the addict’s arguments on “issues.” The problem is the addiction. With high-conflict cases, the problem is how HCPs create and promote conflict because of their personalities, not what their conflicts are about.
However, in many cases there are two or more HCPs. I researched this question with a law school professor in early 2006. We distributed a survey to all the family lawyers in our county, with 131 attorneys responding. They said they believed 49% of high-conflict cases were driven by just one party (one HCP) and 49% by both parties (two HCPs); 2% were not explained. These lawyers averaged more than 15 years experience in their fields.
So you can’t assume there are two high-conflict people fighting with each other, and you can’t assume that it’s always just one high-conflict person either. This means that you always need to keep an open mind.
In addition, this means that if you believe the other person in a dispute with you is acting badly and is an HCP, you may also be seen as an HCP by those around this conflict. I’ve seen HCPs who eagerly tell everyone that the other person in their dispute has a high-conflict personality, when in fact it is obvious that he or she has a high-conflict personality. They have it backwards. But sometimes it’s not obvious on the surface. You have to be very careful not to act like an HCP when you’re around an HCP, or people might think that you’re an HCP too!
nooo because he isn’t the legal father and I want to keep it that way. Everything I do is to keep it that way, including corresponding with him enough over email to keep him from going after his parental rights because he thinks I am withholding access to the child. He has no rights, and to keep it that way I can’t get an order.
I don’t have any proof that he will smash the childs head in, and therefore if he went after his parental rights I think he would get them.
I am afraid to go no contact even tho it is advised here, because I don’t want him to go after his parental rights. A big part of me wants to go no contact and take the chance that he will not lawyer up and fight me in court for rights. But I am afraid that he will lawyer up for withholding access, and then I will always hate myself for not doing whatever it took to ensure he didn’t lawyer up. At least now if he did I can look myself in the mirror and say that I gave it an honest try to keep him from going for his rights.
This is where I get shaky in my decision because I have advice coming to me from many places, and I am not always sure if I am making the right decisions to protect my child. As of now I am not “no contact” in an effort to protect the child; maintaining no legal rights to the sperm donar which is my ultimate goal.
Dear Bird,
You know, it would NOT cost you an arm and a leg to go talk to a lawyer about what YOUR rigfhts are and what HIS rights are (given your situation) and then you would KNOW FOR SURE what chances are….
And, consider that “lawyering up” to PAY money for a DNA test (a professional one is NOT cheap, about a thousand bucks I think) AND hiring a lawyer and so on, and to get the DNA test he would have to get the lawyer first and have the court make you do it. Keep in mind, those e mails and allowed visits are TWO WAY STREETS and he can say “well she let me visit so I must be the father”—so, the fact that he WOULD have to PAY 1/4th about of his take home pay to you for child support is a GOOD REASON why he would NOT lawyer up and put himself into a position to maybe go to jail if he does NOT pay—-
Why don’t you pop for a visit with an attorney to know what your RIGHTS in this situation. Since yoiu did NOT put the creep down on the birth certificate, and so on, I think your position (I’m not a lawyer just a nasty old woman!) is good that HE would have to spend a LOT of money for proving that he is the father, then have to PAY FOR THE PRIVILEDGE….which you and I both know is NOT going to happen. All he is going to do is to send hot air “checkis” and they don’t spend very well.
Check it out with a LEGAL SOURCE and then you will KNOW what the right decision is. Right now you are just NOT SURE what the best way to go is. I found the HARD WAY that checking things out with an attorney BEFORE you need an attorney is a good way to do things. I did that last week in fact, only cost me $100 for over an hour of this guy’s time in his office and I got a MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF PEACE OF MIND! (((hugs))))
Had DNA test done for $120 four years ago. Dont need permission or mother, just access to the inside of childs cheek(mouth)
Dear Hardlesson,
What that a “Professional” one or one of the ones you can buy in a drugstore or order on-line? The online ones are NOT considered “evidence” to my knowledge, but the professional ones are EVIDENCE since they have a doctor or law enforcement official as a 3-rd party witness who is a “disinterested” party.
Also it (the child’s dna) must be compared to the proported parent’s DNA test (also an official one) and then an “expert” witness must testify in court (and they do not do it for free) that they are qualified to compare the two and so on.
My friend’s son had a baby by a girl, and he was satisfied with a “home test job” just to make sure the baby WAS his, but it would NOT have held up in court. So far, no problem with visitation or child support payments, he makes them and the mom lets him and his mom have the baby pretty much when ever they want to. (so far anyway) Plus, his name is on the birth certificate.
There are also Y-DNA tests to to see what male liine you descend from, which is commonly used in geneology circles now in addition to records from census and others to trace male descent. They are fairly cheap and take some of the “guess work’ out of tracing your family tree.
Back when I was in school, I did a rotation in some genetic testing for inherited diseases, etc. and one of the things we ran up against was that about 10% of the perported fathers were NOT the fathers. We had one case where the “father” who was NOT the sperm donor and didn’t know it, the couple had a baby that was a geneticly “bad” baby, and they wanted to know what the chances of them having another one were. The doctors that made the decisions about WHAT TO TELL THEM???? Ended up NOT telling them that “daddy” wasn’t the father (mom might have already had some idea about that!) but just told them that THE ODDS WERE VERY SMALL that they would ever have another child with that inherited disorder. So it was sort of a “half truth” I guess at best.
Of course DNA testing has come a LONG way since those dark days “long ago” when I went to school, and the ability to tell more about it, and also to get it from smaller and smaller samples, has improved a thousand fold.
For evidence though, I think the “chain of custody” must be unbroken though. I did do some worth with this in legal urine samples and so on for drug testing. I had to sign a chain of custody slip and the person I gave it to had to sign that they received it and so on down the line until the results were returned. Supposedly that way there is no doubt that THE sample was taken from THAT person and not accidently or on purpose mixed up with someone else’s, plus the machinery used has to be calibrated daily (at least) and the tech’s certified or licensed as the case may be.
Since generally when someone is asked for a drug-urine screen is NOT watched while they urinate, but the “observer” is outside the stall (they are not allowed to flush the toilet) but many people cheat on these tests in a number of ways, I know one nurse who actually took urine from a patient’s foley catheter bag and INSERTED IT INTO HER OWN BLADDER to void out. There are also ways to keep a “clean” urine sample warm to body temp (which is one of the things tested for) so I don’t like urine samples as reliable since they CAN be faked if the person’s “privacy” is not “violated” and they are not observed giving the sample of theirt OWN urine—hair samples, though, are reliable because the tester cuts them off themselves, from head, arm pit, facial hair, etc. and the drugs show up for MONTHS in hair, not just days like in urine.
But it doesn’t give you instant results and is more costly than urine samples which run about $12 in volume buying.