Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
Don’t recall source of test. I also was not on birth certificate another one of the P’s control tactics. Knowing I had already had a DNA test done paternity was never contested. Knowing the judge in my case I’m sure had the results of my test been contested judge would’ve ordered new tests which ex could pay for. Results would’ve been the same. Not trying to get in big debate about DNA or anything. Just saying you cannot take anything for granted as proven by my story. Just when you think you’ve covered every angle possible the “P” goes and recruits some other sucker and here comes more variables.
Timely article and great to get some input from an attorney who has been there. Thank you LF.
As some of you know I am taking mine to the mat and have been self rep. for the last several months, getting bullied and bashed around and worried about slipping up, plus I am chasing hidden assets, which are damned near impossible to find. BUT. I still have his passport. And brand new evidence which I knew would be there on his computer. I knew he would have to brag and do spreadsheets, and there they are, right down to the cost of the custom built china cabinet.
So now HE has to disprove ME and I know he cannot. My best hope is to grind him down to where he just makes a settlement to be done with me. He is soon to be 70 years old, and I am pretty sure I am keeping him from doing what he wants.
And last week found an angel of a lawyer who will stand up for me. Plus she is a former crimminal prosecutor. I told her straight out in my consultation that we are dealing with a P. By the time our session ended I truly believe she got it.
And yes Erin , document, document, document. And I couldn’t agree with you more about the kids, and the example we set. When I recently was discouraged, I too realized that part of the fight was about principles that I must defend for myself, and for my kids.
My lawyer asked me what kind of help I want from her, and I gave an answer, but I should have said, “my dignity back”.
There is nothing wrong with living frugally, or with being poor for that matter, but not the enforced poverty of a greedy abuser. That was my 27 years of hard effort and achievement that he devastated and raped.
If not for some of the great sharing and insights on this site I do not believe I would be where I am today.
But I think I have him in a box. The kind they used in the Spanish Inquisition, with metal spikes on the inside, and a tightening gear on the outside . : )
They are not invincible. Don’t accept being a victim for a final time, unless there is nothing to be gained. But yes, the costs are huge, financial and emotional, time and nerves.
I will be happy to get my life back, with my head high.
Peace and love to all,
Dear Hardlesson, Yea, you are right “when yhou think you’ve covered every angle possible the P goes and recruits some other sucker and here comes more variables” !!!!!! You are RIGHT ON THERE, FOR SURE!!!! I didn’t realize before I started doing those drug tests just how CRAFTY some of these people can be….anyway to CHEAT and get by with it.
Because I didn’t protect myself the way I should, my Ps got WAY too much information that they used against me.
At least your home test convinced her she would lose in court and so she gave in on that part. Doesn’t make it easy for you to co-parent with a P though as they know that you CARE and they use THAT VERY THING to turn the caring and the child into a weapon to use against YOU and of course that damages the child in the process. Plus, the child has the down side of a P parent (at least one P) so I feel for you, Hardlesson. I am at least glad that you are a responsible parent and so your child has ONE good parent at least! That is a plus!
I can’t even imagine the frustration a co-parent must feel dealing with these monsters. It prevents Total NC which is bad enough, but loving anyone else who is in the control of a P has to be heart breaking. My prayers for you Hardlesson, and unfortunately, I learned my lessons the HARD WAY too! I think most of us have. Glad you are here though, as there is another male point of view on this blog and I think that is a GOOD THING.
Dear Anitasee,
I think we were posting over each other! Glad things are going your way finally.
A lovely former poster here, New Lily, who is now deceased, fought with her X of nearly 50 years, for any portion of their shared estate, and got poverty instead….and her kids turned their back on her as well…very much like their father, I think, or at the least are duped by him and their mother smeared by him.
Good for you, and if nothing else, maybe you can get your dignity back intact. Glad you found someone to help you!
Thanks Oxy. We all give each other strength.
as follow up to Erin, and this thread about principle, the epiphany I had the other day was exactly that. Staying in the fight on pricinple. Because, in recent years I have struggled to find a way to make a difference on other issues (activism, etc) and other than a march or a protest, it is hard to find the right place, people, group or movement behind which to put your shoulder to the wheel. And several years of doing so taught me that even the activist groups are largely co-opted by the “system”. (Profits over people etc)
And while agonizing about the “costs” of taking my P to the mat, I suddenly realized, if I cannot stand up to this one P, this one abuser, this one who took so much from me,this one, that I married and slept with and had children with, who I nursed through several grave illnesses, and supported and was loyal to, then how can I ever stand up to any one? Or march or protest or write or speak? If I did not stand up to this one?
And of course like Bette Midler is fond of saying “f’em if he can’t take a joke”
Towanda all, A
Fred,
I hear the practical perspective that you bring to the blog.
And to be perfectly honest, I hope this never happens to your family and you never have to say this yourself or to them.
My experience with the legal system around this issue is that is is at my expense of time and effort to do pursue what it right. And that the system is set up to fight me from obtaining information, advice or assistance without some attorney getting fees in advance and I’m pretty disgusted with it.
I was appalled that the first question to me was will you take him back and take responsibility for a *.*head who already skipped parole once, but we don’t have to tell you anything about the case. My second disgusting experience was with a Federal Parole officer who would initimate I’d married a bigamist but not be forthcoming about what was in their files.
The system is inward facing and has nothing to offer the victim who if we can’t pay, can’t get freed of them.
I wonder how many women there are in the country right now who have men like this in their homes and lives because they can’t come up with a retainer and the profession insists that fees be paid before work is done.
It disgusts me that the service community in general including private investigators, counselors and lawyers are in general much better at setting their boundaries around their hours and fees and schedules than they are at providing real help in real time to people who need it. Where do I go with a complaint? Andf what if it is a SPATH Bigamist and we only know the tip of the iceberg now? At my expense? So lawyers can make money and PI’s can tell me that if we spend more money maybe? I’ve got too much invested without hope of recovery as it is.
From the perspective of lovefraud, I’d like to see a blog column that gives real references to providers who get the work done and make a difference in the lives of people who have victimized.
It takes a compelling sense of ethic and integrity and the willingness to give information and advice for any of these professions to claim that they serve this population. I know. I paid two Pi’s a lawyer and 8 websites and I still can’t tell the whole story. I’m starving but everybody else is going home at 5 pm and to tell you the truth, this is where I find that I can focus the anger I feel for the experience because the service I have been getting has not given result and it is enough to fry anyone’s sensibilities to say the way to follow through on the right thing is to pay more and get what is going to amount to the same sloppy performances which come from the pragmatic attitude that its my problem alone.
It isn’t. And for all the families who have children it isn’t and where there are children and the potential to make more, then our whole society has a problem.
Perhaps it takes a commitment to being of service.
Maybe the Bar Association and Associations for Family and Marriage Law should fund the development of a website that provides accurate background checking for a nomimal fee from this site and maybe it should sponsor some banner ads on dating web sites.
One potent inititative would to be to campaign to make it so that the DA becomes responsible for taking bigamists to the mat – not the women they betrayed although in some cases that could be class action suits. Prosecuting bigamists is a pretty definite way to get Spaths off the streets because they do it with alarming regularity.
Lets not forget also the crying need for National Marriage and Divorce Databases because no normal person can count on what you can find with out that!
Looking at it from a business perspective, every woman or man on this blog is a potential legal client for someone.
I believe to the marrow of my bones that any attorney, any law school, anyone in the legal/justice profession who thinks its ok to sit back and see who will bring them the research and pay their fees needs to understand that the GENE POOL is as worthy of protection in this country as the water we drink or the air we breathe and that it is both negligent and lazy to not to be an advocate for this community.
Many activist groups are so in business for the purposee of staying nin business and not results that I clearly see there to be a need for groups to come to being with the potency to get things done. And I see the bottleneck in the profession just as you described. There is a Pro Bono opportunity here and after working with tireless and impassioned envrionmental attornies in the west, I think there is a standard set and a torch lit that the Marriage and Family Law folks could step up and get behind.
May God keep and protect you and your family from the shadow of these Dark Angels. All of us here are very, very lucky. We’re still alive.
Dear Silvermoon,
I share your frustration, and so do many others, lawyers, DAs and cops included. There are so many crimes that are considered “worse” than bigamy that the violent crimes, sex crimes, murder, etc. are difficult to prosecute, and are allowed to plead down to a lesser crime in exchange for a gulty plea and no trial (which takes time and is expensive).
States are reeling with the cost of incarceration and the cost of parole officers, and yet the threats that they are letting violent people out on the streets again.
I DO see both sides of the story, and I have been on YOUR end of the stick, suffering because either the law couldn’t do anything to PREVENT a crime, and having thrice-convicted child molesters out of parole in zip time, and his “level” of offense decreased because he is in this state and his crimes were in another state! UGH!!!!!
I have written and called parole boards and threatened to be on the capitol steps screaming their names if they ILLEGALLY released them which they WERE going to do until my threats,but he still got out 5 months later, and when he violated his no-contact order, his parole officer didn’t even know he was a SEX OFFENDER!
I’ve been through it, and am now PAYING to hire an attorney to keep my own son in prison instead of him getting out on parole after killing a 17 year old woman in cold blood….it seems that murder isn’t much of a “crime” any more!
Attorneys and PIs can’t work for free I know, and it is hard to scrape up the money to pay them. I do think in some cases the amount of money they charge is outrageous, but physicians don’t work for free either, and neither do nurses or teachers and therapists —so I don’t expect them to work for free, but I DO wish our court system were more “user friendly” than it is.
Yes, we ARE fortunate to be alive, and I nearly didn’t make that cut, and neither did my son C, he actually faced down the barrel of the gun, I ran before they pulled the gun! I have no doubt if my P-son can manage it, he will send another of his convict friends after me but I will NOT live in terror any more, I’ll live my life and the worst he can do is to kill me, but I have made arrangements to have an attorney at his every parole hearing until he is 75! He will at least have to spend his money in the prison commissary. That may be the best I can do.
Whatever happens, though, I know I cna’t go on being angry about this, bitter about this, and living my life in TERROR and FRUSTRATION, I’ve got to work to make MY life good, and enjoy my life—whatever else goes on in this world! ((((hugs))) and God bless you.
Attorneys actually can work for free- Its called Prpo Bono and they can do it for charitable causes.
What I am suggesting is advacacy on behalf of this community by the professionals whose clients WE are to work with us to get some resources in place which could help us and will help others.
It is absolutely reasonable to petition their licensing and professional organizations to help fund and work to provide resources that help people find out about spaths before they do harm and to put information about those resources on the sites that they use.
I do hear what you are saying and in fact I thought of you when I wrote that.
They don’t have to work on each case for free and I do not advocate that. However, the community which has affected us, affects society at large and is not only capable, but inclined toward activities that creat more of them thus increasing the potential population with that characteristic is they are allowed the freedom to continue to behave that way.
We represent a small population of people affected and women with the means to pursue thsese guys.
I think it is a dishonor to those of us who suport the service professions as cllients not to see some percentage of that revenue turned into advocacy and resources. In fact, its good business because it makes the providers more accessible to the folks who are out there being affected who don’t know what hit them, where to go andwhat to do.
And the resources that are available online for free or low cost which are reliable take a llot of work and some bad experience to find.
By no means am I hung up on this, but I feel strongly to leave this conversation at the place where we agree politely that if we, the victims aren’t willing to take inordinate amounts of time and further invest in the SPATHS by taking them to task, the system and the professionals aren’t going to do much either -especially considering the relationship to the physical violence statistics elsewhere posted on the site.
They cost every one and the expense is great.
I hope that I don’t seem reactively angry, my intent is to take a proactive posture in responding to the situation and if I feel anger in it all, it is really directed at resources who took money and produced pathetic results on which I based decisions having trusted the information which was provided.
And then finding out that if I had a few WEEKS with nothing else to do, I could do better. Its not funny. especially when stories like yours can be told.
In fact, the whole thing screams for advocacy and who better to apeal to for it than the service professions that depend on our experiences to make their living.
The way I see it, what’s right is right. Its an issue of business ethics.
The legal system has to balance fairness and privacy- I respect that, but it is created with the purpose and intention of protecting citizens who do not violate the laws of the land from those who do.
Complacency is no part of that work.
The system which is so inward facing that it loses track of the bigger picture should be subjected to the reality of what happens when they don’t and held to account for it.
Those organizations and individuals who do go out of their way should be rewarded and acknowledged for it.
There is no way to know the difference until you have had a bad experience with the system and that is just foul.
If we pay our taxes, its also wrong.
For the people is one of the key reasons for it to even exists.
We are they. We are here and what is available to us before and after the fact is not enough. Not with the tools and resources we have in this day and going forward to Web 2.0.
I don’t buy it that this may be the way it has always been. Better is possible. And had it been so, the stories on this blog might read differently. That in itself a worthwhile goal.
I think over and over about those statistics. I think over and over about if I wasn’t alone and didn’t know it, how many others there must be.
I have seen what it looks like when people who care a lot take on a cause and I think this one is as worthwhile as protecting ground water. I really do.
Live in terror? Nope. Get resources and get busy? You bet. But, I won’t forget what went wrong because disasters are rarely single events – they are usually cumulative failures.
And small failures can be resolved if we take the time and trouble to see what they are. The access to information, the quality of information and the education to inform what exists and where to find it could be vastly improved. Vastly.
The ethic which would compel any one to make that step appear to me to be visible in stories like yours.
You are an Icon ox.
Thank you for your insight, wisdom and experience.
Thankyou for sharing your experiences Fred.
This is very encouraging. I do believe these guys under-estimation of others is their very downfall.
Time to slay the dragon!