Editor’s Note: Resource Perspectives features articles written by members of Lovefraud’s Professional Resources Guide.
Questions to ask yourself when you want to go after a sociopath
By Fred Dunsing, Attorney at Law
Fred Dunsing profile in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide
I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor. I’m a lawyer. Therefore, I’m wholly unqualified to write about sociopaths and the specifics of their mental health disorder.
I do, however, understand the definition of sociopath and generally understand what constitutes sociopathic behavior. I have seen many of these individuals during my years in practice as a family law attorney, and I can say that most of the sociopaths I have come in contact with have been within the context of fraudulent relationships. Most of these individuals have been men (although I must admit that I represent mainly women in my practice).
These individuals have been textbook cases. Men who look for recently single and/or otherwise vulnerable women that have what they need – usually money, credit, sex, or the ability to provide them with children. Generally, their whole lives are lies. Their education, military service, jobs, assets, friends, and even marital status are fabricated.
What has struck me in these cases is that these individuals often share other characteristics. They are often controlling. They are usually supreme narcissists. They have such an inflated and unrealistic view of their own intelligence and abilities that they think they are smarter than everyone else – police, lawyers, judges, and especially the women they victimize. This attitude is always their downfall.
Of the cases I have taken to trial involving these personality types, these individuals have not only always lost, but have always lost in a big way. They lose because of their utterly unjustified opinion of themselves, and of their abilities to con other people. They lose when they finally pick the wrong person who won’t just go away. Someone finally takes them “to the mat” all the way through the legal process. In the context of outright fraud or theft, that may mean the police and the local district attorney. In the context of a child custody or divorce case, that may mean taking it all the way through a civil trial.
These people are predators, but in their minds, they’ve done nothing wrong. They don’t believe a case will ever go to trial because they will outsmart or frustrate any court or lawyer and at the very least, they will convince the victim to drop the case – it’s just another con to them.
But the end of the road for these people is usually when they victimize a strong or determined person. The cases that typically are the most successful are those that involve women who were willing work countless hours to research and document the lies and the damage long before going to see a lawyer. It becomes a mission with them. And even after a lawyer explains the weaknesses of the legal system, these victims all have a common characteristic – they are not going to be victimized and they going to make sure that the sociopath never does it again to anyone else.
Now, this is often easier said than done. In most cases, it is expensive. The cost of the necessary discovery and litigation can be incredibly high. Moreover, the impact on the victim’s personal life during the period of litigation can be devastating.
In my experience, a person who is contemplating taking a sociopath “to the mat” needs to answer the following questions: 1) Do I have the financial resources to pursue this course of action? 2) Am I willing to put my family through the process? 3) What are my goals? Am I seeking some measure of justice? Am I doing this for my family? Am I doing this to teach the sociopath a lesson? Am I doing this for myself?
There is an old adage that most everyone has heard, “you can spell principle two ways – with an ”˜al’ and with an ”˜le.'” It’s OK to spell it with an “le.” You are entitled to seek justice. You are entitled to stand on your principles. You just have to understand that in our legal system, it usually costs you money (principal spelled with an “al”). You also have to understand that in some instances, judgments against sociopaths may not worth the paper they are written on – particularly if the assets taken have already been squandered and the damage has already been done. You can’t collect on judgments if you can’t find the assets to execute on.
It is, however, an entirely a different situation when the stakes are not just missing property or ruined credit, but instead are whether helpless children will be exposed to a sociopath or even worse, raised by one.
ANITASEE –
Yyou said ‘And while agonizing about the “costs” of taking my P to the mat, I suddenly realized, if I cannot stand up to this one P, this one abuser, this one who took so much from me,this one, that I married and slept with and had children with, who I nursed through several grave illnesses, and supported and was loyal to, then how can I ever stand up to any one? Or march or protest or write or speak? If I did not stand up to this one?’
i think you really have something here. i think it’s about coming into a fundamental core belief in ourselves and what is right, standing for it and then we have it – and we can take it into everything we do, and change the world. Brava!
Guys, I agree it would be nice if more attorneys were willing to do pro bono work, and doctors and nurses, and every professioon, but unfortunately, not too many do.
I have know some of each of people in those professions who did or do pro bono work, and Ii got the clinic where I worke to allow me to do pro bono clinic visits for women from the DV shelter and their children, but it is never enough to cover all the needs of those that ARE in need.
Some guy has been running 1-2 day free medical clinics in various cities, and we have two little church-backed free clinics in our area, but it is never enough to meet the need.
There was also the free flu vaccine clinics this year (gov’t paid I think) where you could drive through, if you had insurance, great, if you had none, that was great too, everyone that wanted a shot got them.
I think the BIGGEST thing we need is not just a single attorney to sit down with us, but attorneys that will give regular seminars and EDUCATE people about the laws. How to workk them, how to find them, which public officials to talk to when we need someone prosecuted for a crime against us.
Legal seminars on “family” law and “criminal law” so that we (public) would know in advance some of the basic things we need to know.
MY high school had a course called “Business Law” and I still have and refer to the book quite often. Basic things, like what is a “tort” vs what is a “crime.”
After my husband’s death (the airplane he was in crashed in a neighbor’s pasture) the neighbor (a nut case or a P or both) sued me for $50K because my husband “tresspassed” on his land and “upset him so badly he needed money to make him feell better!” Fortunately, I live in a rural community where he was literally SHUNNED for such a thing!
The attorney for the aircraft liability fought the case, and the nut job didn’t get anything for “damages” and the deposition he gave is the funniest thing you have ever read,, ought to be an example some where. Fortunately, I had insurance to cover the cost of defending this case.
Part of OUR (victim’s) problems too is that WHEN ALL THIS IS GOING ON, “we” are not at our best intellectually or emotionally in order to cope with this mess and we need someone we can trust to guide us through an unfamiliar system. I know there were times (several of them lasting months each) in which I was like a melted piece of wax, taking whatever shape one day and when the heat got turned up again, assuming another one as a result. No two days or weeks alike—just melt down. Hard to function in that way. Hard to make GOOD decisions, though I did manage to make some plans and carry them out with God’s help, many of the decisions and plans I made were not wise ones or the best ones I could make.
Being under BIG STRESS is b ad enough but when you have been under BIG STRESS for A LONG TIME, many times we are just “worn out” mentally, emotionally, physically and financially, to the point it is difficult to function. I know I sure was. I did hire an attorney in order to try to get the Trojan Horse out of my egg donor’s home and it worked for a few weeks with her PROMISE (should have been in writing!) to not let him back in, but she did. So I realized she would LIE to my face in front of WITNESSES, and that was when I took off! (good decision) Because she had more liquid cash resources than I do (or did at that time) I also realized that she could pauper me and I might not win anyway. I also realized that at that point though I had already spent $5,000 on an attorney, plus court costs, that there wasn’t any way I was obligated pauper myself to try to save her from HERSELF. She wasn’t senile, our of her head, she was SELFISH, SELF CENTERED and PUNISHING ME for not going along with her program of enabling my P-son. My other son C was also duped, and I knew his P-then-wife hated my guts as well as my P-son, so I quit trying to save her from herself and her protectors (the Ps)
I started toward taking care of myself for I guess the first time in my life, putting my needs first.
But, at the same time, I don’t feel I lost by making that choice. I think sometimes it is better to walk away, and that was the time. Other times it makes a big difference if you fight, even if you lose, you win.
I do think our family courts would be better if each party had to represent themselves rather than with attorneys—but courts, judges, etc are all attorneys, so tey are not going to want to put their fellows out of a job. It would almost be like doctors settiing up a “self serve medical clinic” where the patient could walk in and get the supplies he needed to diagnose and treat his own illness. I agree the self serve medical clinic isn’t a good idea, but at the same time, there are many things that could be “self served” in the legal profession. Like the small claims court system, which works very very well here. I think I have gotten justice every time I have been there. (several times)
Too many times I think, probate attorneys and divorce attorneys don’t really try to settle it, but keep the parties fighting and lining their pockets. The attorneys end up getting most of the estate for themselves or marital assets go up in lawyers fees.
Historically, in America, civil cases would be brought before the local courts without attorneys, or with minimal attorney intervention and were decided by a jury as well as a judge.
It would be nice if we could go back to that way of doing things. The law has now become so complex on many fields that it is almost impossible for a non-attorney to function in the courts. It is especially bad if the attorney/partner is the one with the money and knowledge and the spouse is the one without money or knowledge. I know of one case of that here on LF and the wife has lost custody of her son to his step father as well as most of her assets. David fighting The Giant with a sling shot doesn’t win except in the Bible story most of the time, unfortunately. I wish we could change that!
Even if you do get a judgment against a dead beat, the court does not trace down the assets for you to seize, YOU have to do that. I have a wind chime haning on my back deck. You can get one just like it at WalMart for less than $5 but I paid $3,500.00 for it. It was the only thing worth keeping out of my rental house that a renter/con man screwed me out of $2,500 rent and $1,000 in legal fees to get him out. He gave phony references, paid the deposit and 1 month’s rent, moved in and never gave me another dime. Had done, I found out, the same thing 3 times in the last year, essentially living rent free. I got the judgment, but never collected on it except for the wind chime. So I figure I PAID $3,500 for that wind chime. GREAT DEAL you got there Oxy! NOT!
Well, its clear there is work and like with so many truly worthwhile causes (and I find groundwater to be one of them), the issue is money, people and time to do something.
We have to believe God’s timing is perfect and when it is such that more can be done about this, it will be so.
Take care of that wind chime! You know, the Feng Shui folks say that wind chimes can be good protection against bad energy coming into your house.
It may be worth every penny if that is so!
Hugs….
Yea, I kept that wind chime to remind me with its very nice tone, BTW, that there ARE people like that in the world. I should have done a survey for that creep! I think he qualified. He sure felt entitled to live in my rental house for FREE and he even counter sued me because as a condition of letting him move in, he had to get rid of his male cat! Ive heard the “Oh, he doesn’t spray, he’s been neutered” line before and had to GUT the smaller rental property to get the stench out! LOL
Mostly I got good renters, but my late husband picked most of the real NUT cases that one way or another caused problems. I am SOOOOO glad I sold those properties just before the RE market hit the skids, or I might still be dealing with them. I sold them mostly as a way to REDUCE STRESS for me and my Son D so we didn’t have to deal with ONE more stressful thing. Good decision. I sold my cow herd and stopped selling meat too—managed to get good placement homes for my brood cows, and kept my 3 pet cows (former show heifers that are halter broken and very gentle) to just watch as my therapy! Or pet. They are Scottish Highland cattle and have long shaggy hair like a yak, and long SHARP horns as well, but are sweet hearts! Great for Pet therapy for me!
Yea, I like my wind chime and it REMINDS me to BE CAREFUL every time the wind blows, either with a light breeze with music, or with a big wind with a CLANG! Either way is beneficial to me.
Hi all!
Busy packing to move and start my new job on Monday. Excited but overwhelmed. I feel like somebody has played 52 pickup with my life — but, in a good way, not the way my S-ex did.
banana:
You S-ex could be toeing the line with his newest victim — in other words, he is playing the good boy while he gets what he wants out of her. But, dollars to donuts, or any odds you want to give I’ll cover, the minute, and I mean the minute she doesn’t produce, he will be moving on to his next victim and leave her scratching her head and wondering WTF happened to me?
That said, when you make it too expensive and too dangerous for them to fuck with you or your loved ones, or have the ability to expose them for all the world to see, then I think you can keep them at bay. But throw in the towel? I’m not naive enough to believe that they ever do that. There have been too many people on this site who have reported that their S-ex has struck back at them YEARS after the fact.
So, I’d still keep a wary eye in his direction, sweetie.
Dear Banana,
Sweetie, WHICH PART OF THEY NEVER CHANGE do you NOT GET!??????? BOINK!!! (with the rubber cyber skillet this time!) ha ha
He may pretend to be nice to anyone to get what he wants. Do you even REMEMBER when he was NICE TO YOU? Of course you do. But when he had you solidly HOOKED, the crap started, right?
This will be SAME SONG, SECOND VERSE—as long as he needs something from her he will be NICE, but when she catchs on that he is a liar and confronts him, the will lie more and eventually start abusing her too.
WE know how their relationship will MORPH, it will morph just like his and yours did. Hopefully, he will lose interest in you, because you make it too hard for him to succeed, but right now THEY HAVE A COMMON ENEMY and it is YOU…..so the old saying about “One who hates my enemy is my friend” but you know, that kind of “friendship” doesn’t hold up forever.
So you quit’yer doubtin’ ! RAT NOW! (that’s my Southern Accent) ((((hugs))))
Dear Matt!!!
GOOD LUCK, and great mojo on your first day of work! ((hugs))))
Do they ever throw in the towel? At being a spath?If he is a spath?
No I dont think so.
He may cheat and try to hide it better, or just bump her off when she finds out. IMHO a spath doesnt change its spots.
I think none of us ever really do change with the ‘basic’ stuff, we can moderate our behaviours; become happier,less self destructive, more content with ourselves, work through anger towards others, learn to see other’s point of view, have an ah-ha’, learn to be less selfish,more thoughtful, recover from depression, stop smoking/drinking… whatever unhealthy side roads we found ourselves traveling down we all have our ‘base level’ (maybe we are born with it) … what is a sociopaths basic stuff?
sorry for jumping in;S
Matt:
Please check in and let us know how you like the new job.
Remember, we are your internet friends, so we are coming with you! 🙂
I’m happy & excited for you, Matt.
“Break a leg”….I think that works anywhere, not just on Broadway.
Banana:
I read something recently about the dynamic that occurs when a S/P/N moves on to their next “relationship”.
It’s basically all about the hate they carry within themselves.
“This hatred, projected onto someone else, provides the abuser with a defense against what could be more serious psychotic symptoms. It’s also a way, while establishing a new relationship, to defend himself against any unconscious hate he may harbor toward the most recent partner. By focusing the hate on her predecessor (that would be YOU, Banana), one can ascibe every virtue to the new partner. When the “hated” victim realizes that she is a sacrificial pawn in reinforcing the latest relationship, she feels trapped and manipulated yet again.”
~Stalking the Soul, page 117
I think what it’s saying is that these varmints are all full of hate and they project it back onto their ex, so they can keep lovebombing with their new partner.
But, there’s plenty of hate waiting for the new partner, too.
They just are not ready to unleash it yet.
I hope that makes a lot of the ladies on here feel a little better when they run into their ex, and he’s out with the “new” girl.
The new girl is NOT going to get better treatment than you did.
She will get the same, or worse.
But, it also explains why we feel so badly when we see him out having a great time after the break-up.
It seems that’s also part of their sick plan.