Lovefraud.com recently heard from a woman in Illinois, who we’ll call Mary. Mary is trying to protect herself and her eight-year-old daughter from her ex-boyfriend, the daughter’s father, who has guns and has threatened to use them. Not only is Mary fighting the ex, but she’s fighting lawyers—both hers and his—and an unresponsive family court.
Mary left the ex for good in 2001, when their daughter was three. The guy has an alcohol problem and a 20-year arrest record. He has five arrests for DUI (driving under the influence of alcohol) and 14 DWLR arrests (driving while license revoked). He has two arrests for domestic battery. Two different women have sought protection orders against him, including Mary.
In July, 2004, after three years of seeing his daughter sporadically at best, the ex decides he wants to be an involved parent. Coming from a wealthy family, he can afford to initiate a lawsuit and hauls Mary into court to get visitation rights. Mary works full time, but as a single mom, struggles to support her child. She can’t afford the best lawyers money can buy, and she doesn’t qualify for public assistance.
Arrest and conviction
Now, prior to filing his petition for parental rights, the ex was arrested for DUI and DWLR in February, 2004. He gets arrested two more times, in July and November, 2004, for DWLR. So on November 15, 2004, family court awards him supervised visitation rights. Eight days later the ex beats up his current girlfriend. She gets a protection order against him. Then in December he goes to jail for the DUI conviction. He serves 90 days of an 18-month sentence and is released on parole.
All of this happens while he is petitioning the court for his parental rights. The court appoints a clinical psychologist to evaluate both parents and the child. After 20 hours of interviews and evaluation over four months, the psychologist reports that the ex has a history of alcohol abuse and is vulnerable to relapses. He recommends that visitation continue to be supervised, and that the father complete an intensive substance abuse treatment program before overnight visitation is allowed.
Mary’s days in court
On November 15, 2005, Mary is back in court with the ex. Her legal counsel is less than stellar. Mary’s lawyer refuses to subpoena the woman who filed a protection order against the father. Mary talks the woman into showing up in court anyway, but Mary’s lawyer never calls her as a witness. And, Mary’s lawyer never asks the psychologist any questions related to the ex’s violence.
After a six-day trial, the judge rules. In giving his decisions, the judge notes that the ex’s alcohol dependency has not been resolved, and that the man’s mother and stepfather both believe he still has an alcohol problem. The judge notes that the ex has a tendency to disobey court orders. Yet he says the psychologist’s recommendation of no unsupervised visits until after the father completes a chemical dependency treatment program is an unwarranted restriction of his right to visitation. The judge rules that there is no risk to the child, apart from the alcohol issue, and awards the ex unsupervised visitation. He orders the father not to drink alcohol during visitation or for 24 hours before visitation.
Threats of violence
Two days later, the ex calls Mary and tells her he still has his handgun and that he would be a better parent if Mary were no longer around. Mary interprets this as a threat on her life, and asks her lawyer to get an order of protection against the ex. Her lawyer refuses.
The ex continues his threatening and abusive behavior. By February 8, 2006, Mary has had enough. With the help of a family advocate, she gets a protection order on her own. A different judge hears her case.
In the meantime, the ex’s lawyers file a petition to reconsider the parental rights decisions. They want the ex to have unsupervised overnight visitation immediately upon completing a substance abuse program, without an additional court hearing. And, they want his support payments to be reduced, arguing that he really doesn’t get any income from his two trust funds.
On February 16, five days after being served with the order of protection, the ex follows Mary as she drives home from work. Mary photographs him in his car with her cell phone camera and calls the police. The ex is arrested again for DWLR and charged with a criminal felony.
Mary is nervous about testifying against her ex in the felony case. Here’s what the police officer says to Mary: “I have his record in front of me and I can tell you from experience that he is capable of killing you whether you are a witness to this case or not. You need to make a choice to stand up for yourself or let him keep coming after you.”
Back in court
The ex’s lawyers ask the court to combine the protection order hearing with the parental rights case. So on March 1, Mary is back before the family court judge about the protection order. She no longer has a lawyer, so she tries to represent herself. Her ex has two legal teams, who claim that the man has never harassed her. The judge refuses to admit any of Mary’s evidence and vacates the emergency order of protection. The judge further orders that Mary and her ex communicate in a non-abusive and non-harassing manner, and that the father is entitled to telephone visitation daily with his daughter from 7 to 7:30 p.m.
Mary begs the judge to allow her to communicate with her ex only by e-mail. The judge refuses, stating that all communication must be by telephone.
Last week the ex harasses Mary over the phone again. She gets another order of protection.
The next day Mary is back in court in response to her ex’s motion to reconsider the rulings on his parental rights. Although she contacted 43 attorneys, none will take her case, so she is there alone. The judge postpones the hearing, but tells her that if she doesn’t have an attorney on the next trial date, Mary will have to represent herself.
On March 23, 2006, the ex’s home is searched by his parole officer and a representative of the sheriff’s department. They find guns and drugs. He is thrown in jail again.
Can you help?
“It took a long time for me to really understand that he is as dangerous as he is,” Mary says. “I have always been someone who believed all people had some good. I don’t believe that anymore. No matter what I do (try to help him or speak out against him—I have done both), his only goal was to manipulate me and keep me from achieving success of any kind in any aspect of my life. If he does kill me I am not taking his secrets with me.”
Now that’s courage.
Mary still needs to respond to her ex’s demands for visitation rights. Her goal is to keep her daughter safe. If you know an Illinois attorney who can win her case, please contact Lovefraud.
It can be hard to know what areas to post some comments, but I’m wondering:
Are there any examples from LF involving two people (one a N/S) who play some new non-romantic role in each others’ lives — in a new situation with positive, mutual benefit — years AFTER the relationship ended and enough time had passed for the non-disordered person to heal and have clear boundaries?
If so, what were the outcomes?
Hi Recovering,
I don’t know but I doubt it – I’d say someone with clear boundaries wouldn’t want anything to do with their ex-N/S anyway.
Recovering:
I have not heard. I think if we change our thinking and upgrade the boundaries…..maybe…..in some instances we could ‘woo’ ourselves into having some sort of relationship.
I also think ultimately……there are no boundaries possible to keep someone from exploiting us.
I have often thgouht about the S coming back at some point….and I feel strongly he will…..and make a peace offering…..
BUT….I also know a duck is a duck and a tiger doesn’t change his stripes.
So given this knowledge…..it would be way to risky for me to put myself in a position of trust with the S.
and I would NEVER do this….just for my own sanity.
WHy also would we want to……we have lived so much pain and destruction…..and taken so much time to heal……that any sort of ‘mutual’ relationship would entail some sort of trust……and I just don’t have it for anyone who has betrayed me iin my past.
Now….this is different from a ‘small’ betrayal……where the person shows remorse and NEVER does untrustworthy behaviors again EVER……I beleive trust can be earned back in some situations…..
BUT…….most of our experiences with S’s are so devastating all around…..I just do not see building a trust again.
They are NOT trustworthy.
Now….we could go into our fantasy and make ourselves believe they have changed……but the bomb WILL drop again….
I had an interesting conversation with my insurance co. today, just prior to reading your post…..seems as if my policy has been paid for the whole year. ODD…..because it wasn’t by me!
Now….who the hell paid my homeowners policy?
My first thought was did the S pay it? WHY? what benefit was it for him??? I had paid 1/2 the year….so they sent me a refund check for the balance…..
The agent I spoke with said, maybe it was the ex……being nice.???? I said NO WAY! WHy would he spend so many years trying to destroy….only to pay and try to rebuild?
Uh, yeah…..don’t think so!
But…..it’s got me thinking…..who did this?
It was a whole year…..several thousand dollars??????? AND i got a refund check sent to me for what I had already paid????
I don’t ever see having any sort of relationship, never mind a mutualy beneficial one with the S I was involved with for 28 years!!!
EVER!
Hi Eileen and ErinBrock — Thanks for your responses.
This question came up for me because I still owe my ex money he loaned me for my business. He recently gave me the option of allowing him to have a percentage of ownership in the business (there would be no direct authority for him, just dividends) instead of getting re-paid in cash from me, which would free up cash flow for me in near future.
He also indicated possibly investing more money, which would give me even more cash to work with for next steps.
As for whether to deal with the ex-N/S in any way, I have mixed thoughts about that — was in situation for 1.5 years and no children together.
I still co-parent and talk regularly with my son’s father (the guy I was with before meeting my ex-N/S). The son’s father could have been a N at least — in hindsight — but we work well together on behalf of son after a long period of him trying to be controlling after the break-up almost 4 years ago.
I’ve found, as a business owner, that one cannot escape dealing with the whole range of characters. Doesn’t mean I have to be friends or lovers — can just do business when necessary and limit the contact.
My whole thing with most people now is, if I generally know who/what I’m dealing with, I can detach enough if there’s enough mutual benefit — I don’t have to like the person or their values, as in the case of interacting periodically with some family members who are toxic.
recovering, think about what you would do if you had all the money in the world. Do that.
If you need money, get it elsewhere. The more of your company he owns, the more emotional and legal leverage he has over you. You know what he is. He may be being nice now, but while you’re being the empathetic, fair-minded person you naturally are while you’re building your business, he will be figuring out how to turn it into a cash cow for himself. And if that creates problems for you, well, it’ll be unfortunate because you’re a nice person, but not anything he can’t live with.
You know what he is. There is no way this is going to come out well.
Contact me offline, if you want. My e-mail is on the author’s page. Maybe I can help you think this through and find some options.
Kathy
This is some dangerous talk going on here.
Letting a N/S come back for a mutually beneficial situation?
First of all, a business deal would be the last arrangement I would enter into with a S/P/N.
It does not matter that you know what you are dealing with, or how well you are able to detach, sociopaths do not play by the rules. So, even if you know what you are dealing with, they are going to do what THEY want.
It might be legal….it might not. It might include you….it might not.
Recovering, I come from a business family. So, I would tell you one of the golden rules of business that was brainwashed into me growing up is to NEVER sacrifice ownership!!! Find a way….ANY WAY…to pay the money back that you owe. But, do not give up a piece of your business under any circumstances.
I just read that your ex is even willing to invest MORE $$ into the business??? That’s nice. That means he wants more power!!
It’s one thing to sell to a sociopath (and that’s bad enough). It’s another to give them ownership in your business.
At the end of the day, I think No Contact from a sociopath MEANS No Contact, if at all possible.
Recovering: look at your name. keep doing THAT. no no no to business with the spath.
please. respect yourself.
there will be other ways.
there is help and guidance here. i see kathleen has offered to help you think this through.
you don’t have to do this. THERE will be a way. keep respect for yourself as the bottom line and work from there.
nothing is worth losing yourself in this situation – no business, no hope of it being possible, no unhooked chains. nothing.
it IS an opportunity to become more free. this is the blessing of it. (((((girl))))), i see a good head on your shoulders. don’t make me come over there with a random kitchen implement!
all best,
one step
Recovering:
I agree with the others….DO NOT LET HIM ANYWHERE NEAR YOU!!!
No Money, no nothing……
It sounds to me as if he’s throwing a carrot of “And I may have more to invest”…..same as ……theres more where that came from.
Yeah, yeah…..
What also concerns me is your last statement of
“My whole thing with most people now is, if I generally know who/what I’m dealing with, I can detach enough if there’s enough mutual benefit I don’t have to like the person or their values, as in the case of interacting periodically with some family members who are toxic. ”
Yes…but business is business.
AND….when your dealing ‘superficially’ with a Cluster B…..it’s much easier….this is how they continue to carry on the cons….by people dealing with them on a superficial level and they are never exposed, can continue on with the cons and it’s the ‘lovers’ or ‘partners’ that are hit hard. (not minimizing the parent/child victims either). But in your case, you were married…..if all was fine in the divorce…for one….you wouldn’t be here naming yourself recovering, for two…..you would have taken him on as a more involved (financial or active) partner in your company. YOU DIDN”T! So what has changed….time and water under the bridge? He hasn’t!
You better believe it! Maybe your situation or needs have changed…..but i’ll tell ya……if you take his offer….it’ll be your biggest regret to date!
If money is your problem……I’d suggest prostitution before I suggested going to him for anything……it’d be the same thing….but worse!!!
Steer clear my dear…..there will be other opportunities for you to uncover and the empowerment of doing it on your own is so worth the dig!!!!
Good luck!
Thanks all of you for your feedback, which I will keep in mind.
Rosa, please…please… don’t make this sound so alarmist/extremist with the “This is some dangerous talk going on here.”
It’s not that serious. My ex is not your ex….let’s not confuse our different circumstances please.
ErinBrock — I was not married to him”..My name of recovering has as much to do with the family-of-origin stuff I’ve been working on for 20 years as if does with any ex-relationship — no doubt, the encounter with the N/S for 1.5 year relationship was a major turning point, but he did not cause all of my painful emotions.
What the situation is and has always been for several months, is that I have never been full NC — I’ve always had periodic phone contact with the ex related to updates on money (and occasionally his dad wanted to talk to me), but there’s no physical contact.
ALSO: My ex is not threatening me, and neither of us wants the other back.
Sorry, but my experience simply doesn’t fit the full stereotypical script — it shares many components, but not all.
FOR EXAMPLE: My ex didn’t borrow money from me. I owe him money. It was contributed before the relationship came to an end. That is a fact.
My ex only has power over me if I allow him to, now that I know enough at this point and respect my own limits and boundaries.
And just for the record, I do believe in No Contact — and feel also that limited contact has its place, depending on the people and situation. Each person has to decide when and how for them, not go through motions to please others or get kudos.
So I don’t count the days of NC as the gauge for how I’m doing, nor do I believe in changing phone numbers and email addresses to prevent someone from getting in contact with me. I look at how I am functioning and living my life.
If that makes me have a philosophical difference with most people on the degree of NC matter, I understand.
I will certainly think about all of what you’ve shared.
One more comment: In an ideal world, I wouldn’t owe my ex money (and therefore maybe wouldn’t consider adding more to what I owe him), but we live in a current United States where banks are giving small business owners a tough time, and the middle class is at greater risk.
It is what it is. Most entrepreneurs raise money from family, friends and acquaintainces to get their products to the next highest level, hoping for breakthrough. There are lots of costs involved.
Many factors required to maintain/grow a small business in this currect economic situation. Sometimes it means biting the bullet for a temporary period and pulling resources together however one needs to — that’s just the way it is.