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By | March 29, 2012 77 Comments

Senseless murder of a Vermont teacher

I just read the story about Melissa Jenkins, a popular teacher in Vermont, who went to help her neighbors, only to be brutally murdered as soon as she got out of her car.

I am sick to my stomach. Not only because of the stupid, horrific crime, but because I believe the victim suspected something was wrong.

The story in the Burlington Free Press begins:

ST. JOHNSBURY When Melissa Jenkins answered the phone Sunday night, the couple who used to plow her driveway said they were stranded half a mile from her home. Their car had broken down on the remote country road, they said, and they needed her help.

Before driving out to meet them, Jenkins called longtime friend and coworker Randy Rathburn and said she “wanted someone to know what was going on,” police would recount later. She told Rathburn about the “weird call” she received from the couple whose first names she could not remember. She still had their business card and asked Rathburn to write down the pertinent information: the name Prue, a phone number, an address in Waterford.

The fact that Jenkins called her friend tells me that she had a bad feeling about the call for help. My guess is that she was afraid, but chided herself for her fear, convincing herself that she had no reason to worry.

Jenkins should have listened to her intuition. As Gavin de Becker eloquently explains in The Gift of Fear, our intuition has been honed over millennia to keep us safe. The best thing we can do to protect ourselves from predators is heed that inner knowing.

But we don’t. We are not taught to listen to our intuition. In fact, our rational world seems to regard intuition as mumbo jumbo, so we talk ourselves out of our fears.

This is one of the most important points that I make in my new book: Red Flags of Love Fraud—10 signs you’re dating a sociopath. The book is based on last year’s survey of Lovefraud readers. The results showed that 71% of Lovefraud readers had a bad feeling about the sociopath or the relationship early in the involvement. But most of them did not listen to their gut. Instead, they doubted themselves, or felt like they had to give the individual the benefit of the doubt.

My guess is that Melissa Jenkins had those same exact thoughts. If she didn’t, why would she have called her friend to let him know where she was going?

This murder is a tragedy that I suspect could have been avoided.

Read Melissa Jenkins answers a call for help, and then a sudden attack, on BurlingtonFreePress.com.

Story suggested by a Lovefraud reader.


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survivor3

Such a heartbreaking and senseless tragedy. I, too, am just sickened by this. All she was doing was trying to help. It’s just horrible.

Ox Drover

Donna, I think you are right about her having a “gut feeling” that something wasn’t right….but the PITY PLOY was what sucked her in. How many of US were sucked in by a pity ploy? I would say many if not all of us at one time or another in the relation-shits.

The “social” training we get to be “helpful” and to “have compassion” toward others starts from the cradle as we are taught that we have to “be nice” to others and “helpful.”

NO! We do not have to “be nice” to others if we “smell a rat” we need to RUN!!!!!

The GIFT of fear, the GIFT of intuition is very important but we over ride it with our “manners.”

survivor3

He was the one that tried so hard to convince me I needed to be more compassionate and understanding, which was a big part of the game he played up until the bitter end. Now I spend my time getting back to the point where I can just recognize that a jackass is a jackass and call it a day. That doesn’t make me a bad person.

This poor woman’s compassion, all common sense flew out the window, other than the fact that she did call a friend, in order to satisfy the need inside of herself to help someone else in need. What I am baffled by is why this is being considered second-degree murder. What about this case even remotely resembles second-degree? I just wish her friend would have urged her not to go alone. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. So incredibly sad.

Ox Drover

Survivor, I am not sure that in most places “killing someone” is still a crime….there are always excuses…their mommy didn’t breast feed them so they needed to kill someone….sheesh! makes me want to puke!

Louise

This is so sad. I was going to put the link here to this story the minute I read it, but didn’t. So senseless. This beautiful teacher is gone and for what? Those are two really sick people. Yep, gut feelings and instincts. She knew he made her feel uncomfortable yet she went to help. But the wife called, he didn’t. So that may have been the wrench right there. If HE would have called, I bet she would still be alive as she probably would have told him she was busy.

If this doesn’t make me once and for all trust my first gut instincts, I don’t know what will. Those feelings are always right!

Redwald

This goes to show that truth is stranger than fiction.

To start with, if a woman was lured to her death by someone who claimed an acquaintance with her and told her their name and address, my first guess would be that it had to be someone impersonating that acquaintance. Who would have expected a pair of killers like this to identify themselves to their prospective victim in advance, when it could and did lead immediately to their capture? We’re lucky that so many criminals are downright STUPID, otherwise we’d be burdened with even more crime than we already have.

Second, if I had to guess the motive for this murder, knowing it was a married couple who perpetrated it against a victim they already knew, and they killed her the moment she arrived on the scene, I would have said it was a grudge killing. No, it turns out it’s a sex murder.

Third, it shows that psychopaths sometimes mate with one another and become joint predators on other humans. Still, it’s hardly the first time that’s happened. The infamous Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo come immediately to mind. Leopold and Loeb must be counted too, since they had a homosexual relationship.

Donna Prue is a classic instance of a mother in denial. It’s understandable that she wouldn’t want to believe her son committed a murder as depraved as this. She would obviously grasp at the possibility that someone else impersonated her son when telephoning the victim. But now that Allen Prue has actually confessed to the killing, his mother needs to wise up.

I imagine that poor Melissa Jenkins may already have had bad vibes about this couple, or one of them, when she encountered them previously. It’s a tragedy she didn’t make an excuse not to go out there.

Louise

But they didn’t have sex with her, did they?

survivor3

Apparently, they found condom wrappers near her body, but have not yet determined whether sex was involved. This is so disgusting. Sometimes I hate this world we live in.

Ox Drover

Red,

It is quite COMMON in reality that two disordered people mate up—and the thing that is a problem is that when one of them becomes the “loser” in the battle to see who is the “top dog” then that person presents as a VICTIM with a big PITY PLAY.

So, how do you tell a REAL VICTIM from a PSEUDO VICTIM?

Many psychopaths I have encountered have been pseudo victims. It takes knowing them for a little while to see that they are not really “victims” but mooches who are using the pity ploy to seek another victim.

This couple used the ever-popular PITY PLOY to get the woman to come to them. How many of us have fallen for the pity ploy? (my hand waving wildly here!)

I no longer “fall for” the pity ploy unless I know more about the situation…When I pass by and see the “injured” man lying in the ditch by the side of the road, I sort of tend to think like it might be Wil e coyote trying to lure me in. Maybe I should be more like the “good Samaritin” but too many times for me the guy in the ditch has been the coyote! LOL I still get hooked by it once in a while anyway. I guess once a sucker always a sucker to some extent. LOL

Louise

From what I read, she was strangled immediately so if they did have sex with her, it must have been her corpse. Sick, sick, sick. I agree with you survivor3…I hate this world, I really do…

20years

Wow, Oxy. That is a GREAT insight. I hadn’t quite seen it that way before. My ex-husband seems to have married himself an even spathier wife. He is abusive to the kids and me (and service people, who are naturally beneath him… he learned that one from his dad, I think), but narcissistic and generally keeps his mask on in public. She, on the other hand, derives pleasure from inflicting cruelty and playing with people. Her mask is too fake to be real, or at least it is clear to ME and the kids. She is a classic alpha b***h who likes to mess with people for the fun of it. I think she has no idea that I am onto her, and I’d like to keep it that way. She is dangerous.

My kids who go over there come back and tell me “things” — rather sick things… which I would rather not hear or be aware of, about their twisted relationship. But the two of them together have absolutely teamed up against me.

I believe the wife is now the “top dog” because my ex-husband is no longer capable of dealing with me, without her by his side. He cannot even respond to an email from me without having her vet it first. It is like a two-headed monster. So strange.

This story is so horrifically sad. It makes for a useful cautionary tale, though I am so sad for her and her son, and her community. What a tragic loss.

Ox Drover

20 years,

Yes, they will partner up both in business and romance….and then turn on each other as well. When the Trojan HOrse psychopath that my son sent to take over our family and “off” me realized that he couldn’t find me, I had “disappeared” in the middle of the night, he decided to abandon my son’s agenda and to take care of his own, so he and my DIL teamed up together to steal from my egg donor and my DIL decided that in addition she/they should kill my son C…and they had this plan to make it look like “self defense” but it didn’t work out that way and they got caught and both went to jail/prison….and egg donor got most of her money back.

But yes, they team up together to accomplish a purpose, but they may then turn on each other as well. She turned on him and cleaned out his bank account and signed over the truck they had stolen the money from my egg donor to purchase…he had given her a power of attorney while he was in prison and she used it to shaft him.

They are not trustworthy so there is NO HONOR AMONG THIEVES.

G1S

Dr. Hare explained that they cannot stay together because of the narcissism involved and a narcissist hates competition.

I think Gavin de Becker’s book, The Gift of Fear, should be required reading for high school students. Had Melissa Jenkins read this, she would have been alive today.

I had it in mind when a guy I met online, after spending two hours talking with me, sent me an email stating how proud he was to be seen walking down the street with me. Creeped me out BIG TIME because it was inappropriate for the very little time that he had spent with me. Told him I wasn’t interested in any further contact.

I think de Becker’s book, Protecting the Gift-Keeping Children and Teenagers Safe (and Parents Sane,) should be standard issue for anyone enrolling a child in a public school system.

If you go to his website, http://www.gavindebecker.com, he has whole sections dedicated to safety questions parents might have pertaining to their children or the schools they attend.

He also provides a free resource, http://www.mosaicmethod.com, for domestic violence (or potential domestic violence) victims.

The Mosaic Method provides assessments via a series of questions to determine how seriously one should consider the potential for violence from someone in a variety of situations including domestic environments, schools, workplaces, universities, and judicial figures.

I took it for my P sister. I am at medium risk for violence from her.

G1S

Oxy,

Some Ps are so good at disguising their true natures that it can take a very long time before their ulterior motives are revealed.

Some of them have their manipulations and deception skills honed to a high art.

Even with the best of knowledge, there are times when we cannot tell what it going on and would not pick up on what we are dealing with.

skylar

G1S,
you’re right that the P’s can be very good at hiding behind their mask. Though I’ve come to the conclusion that there is some logic in the saying:
They can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but they can’t fool all the people all the time.

In other words, they DO tailor their mask for us individually. Then they compartmentalize so that you never get to see the mask that they wear for the other people. Because if they tried to fool all the people all the time, they would have to find a mask that works on everyone – and that is a difficult task.

So, I think that a good strategy, when meeting someone new, is to try to watch them in different settings. When you don’t see consistency, that would be a red flag.

Annie

Hi G1S, and Skylar,
One of my main issues with Gavin de Baeker is that he consistently and overwhelmingly understates and underestimates violence committed by women, even though his own experience of violence growing up was witnessing his own mother shoot his, in his own estimation, loving and responsible stepfather. He used that as the incentive that got him into his profession and then works to deny female perpetrated violence? I don’t get it, I really don’t. I found myself shaking my head reading the disconnects in his book, and had to put it down unfinished.

In my opinion he has himself greatly contributed to the problem by helping to perpetuate a false image (by ommission) that only men perpetrate violence. According to “Blink” by Malcolm Gladwell, our gut instincts need training and examination for biases in order for us not to be blinded by our own prejudices – something I seem to remember that Mr. de Becker agrees with.

Here in Canada we’re dealing with two murders: of Tori Stafford and Aleksandra Firgin-Hewie where it was women who either abducted or lured the victims to their deaths (and in the first case actually committed the murders). In the case Redwald mentioned: Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo, it was Karla who picked their last victim – Kristen French – and who lured her close enough to be taken in a blitz attack in a church parking lot in full view of witnesses in the middle of the day, no less. In each case people didn’t raise the alarm, ***because they assumed that if a woman was involved it couldn’t really be as dangerous***.

I can’t help but think that Ms. Jenkins wouldn’t have responded with the same behaviours – particularly putting her son at risk – if it weren’t for the presence of Mrs. Prue.

Just my opnion, but I think Mr. de Becker needs to wear some of the responsibility for that.

clair

G1S, Amen to all of this:

“Some Ps are so good at disguising their true natures that it can take a very long time before their ulterior motives are revealed.

Some of them have their manipulations and deception skills honed to a high art.

Even with the best of knowledge, there are times when we cannot tell what it going on and would not pick up on what we are dealing with. ”

Local news stories reveal the banality of evil: George Hartwig (http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2012/03/24/george-hartwig-justice-finally-served/) and now Melissa Jenkins.

I feel like I don’t want to leave my house because of the ever present random, evil SPs that freely walk among us.

I bet Melissa Jenkins (RIP) was a really nice person and that despite her doubts (the red flags that flared in her gut), she wanted to help someone in need. Lesson: don’t be so nice.

Like Oxy said, “injured” man lying in the ditch” may well be Wil e coyote, so call 911 & keep yourself safe. And, that is something I don’t understand: Why didn’t Ms. Jenkins call a tow company instead of going herself? I mean, she was a teacher and a woman with a baby, not a car mechanic with a tow truck.

Also, Ms. Jenkins was beautiful and a beloved teacher. The Prues probably seethed with jealousy and wanted to destroy her because she was so many things they could never be.

Stay safe, everyone. Listen to your gut & your instincts. RIP, beautiful Melissa.

clair

Annie,

I hear what you’re saying. Bottom line for me: know that there are SP couples that work together. Know that there are SP organizations, institutions and corporations. Always listen to your gut. If you feel the least bit uncomfortable, do not do what they want you to do.

skylar

Annie,
male predators commonly will use a woman, a child, a puppy or a kitten as “arm candy”. They know this makes them appear harmless. The movie Changeling, a true story, portrayed a serial killer of young boys who used one young boy as a lure to get more.

Most spaths go looking for a “respectable wife” for that very reason. It’s part of the mask.

It is becoming obvious that all dangerous predators wear masks and we HAVE to strip away the extraneous information that they present to us. These are distractions. The reality is as clear as day, if we just allow ourselves to SEE what’s before our eyes.

Unfortunately people feel safer by closing their eyes.

Melissa KNEW that the dude was creepy. The dude knew that she knew. So he had his wife call her.

Men in general, get more respect when they present themselves as married, family men. People don’t trust a single man as well.

This is just how society has always seen things, I don’t think Gavin DeBecker has very much to do with this perception.

It has been shown, in fact, that testosterone does lower oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone, so it’s possible that, in a cross-section of non-spaths, we would find men to have less empathy than women.

I believe there are as many “little old lady spaths” as there are other types (I know a couple! and they are PURE EVIL), but it’s easier to fight them off, physically. Testosterone gives men more confidence to believe they will get away with criminal behavior. And finally, it does trigger sexual aggression.

So I think that the disorder which causes borderline or spath behavior is probably about equal in men and women, the men are still going to be more dangerous because of testosterone.

Ox Drover

Look at SUSAN SMITH (the one who pushed her car into the lake with her kids in it because her boy friend didn’t want kids) I think she was probably “borderline personality disorder” but it over laps so much with psychopathy that it is difficult to draw the line and say “the ones on this side are BPD and the ones on the other side are PPD”

Women do some horrible things…look at the wife of that guy that helped him kidnap Jaycee Dugard and helped him keep the girl for all those years. Was she also a VICTIM or was she also a psychopath? Where does becoming a trauma bonded victim who helps a psychopath end and being a criminal start? The courts counted her criminally responsible and sent her to prison too.

Patty Hearst went to prison (but then was pardoned) for robbing a bank—when she was trauma bonded to her kidnappers.

There are a lot of things to consider both psychologically and legally.

I’ve seen too many situations where there are whole families who are disordered—like something from “Deliverance” that makes your skin crawl. They fight among themselves but band together to attack others.

Annie

Drat – fat fingers – just lost my post!

I’m not saying that this is true for the case Donna has written about, but in the two present cases I’ve mentioned it wasn’t the women who were arm candy for the men, it was the other way around. Both women wrote extensive stories of kidnapping and torture, pior to ever meeting their male partners, that closely mimicked the killings. In the latter case, even though it was the male who did the killing, the crown has laid a range of charges such that the male could be found guilty of 1st degree, 2nd degree, or manslaughter. But they’ve limited the charges to the woman to a choice between 1st and 2nd degree only.

In the case of Karla Homolka (the one Redwald mentioned earlier) there was forensic evidence that would indicate it was she, and not he, who committed the murders. It was actually presented in our Canadian Senate as part of a petition to the govt. to have her plea deal overturned. But no-one seems to want to believe that women can kill as easily as men. So Bernardo sits in isolation for the rest of his life, but Homolka was out in twelve years, has three children, sells infant clothes to unsuspecting parents through her online company, and teaches ESL to youth in the Carribean. I don’t see anyone stepping up to protect her children’s rights either. She was involved in the kidnap, rape, extended torture, murder and dismemberment of three young women ****including her own younger sister**** and yet we seem to be OK protecting her rights over her children (or society). I just don’t see where we would be this ‘tolerant’ if she were male.

While researching how dangerous my mother might be, I found that female serial killers usually kill in far greater numbers, and for far longer, than male serial killers. Most of them aren’t caught or often even suspected due to our cultural biases. They often pick more vulnerable victims whose deaths aren’t considered important enough to waste money investigating. And, in my opinion, a big part of that does indeed lie at the feet of Mr. de Becker. I can’t tell you how many times, when I’ve been trying to discuss the issue of female-violence, that I’ve had his book thrown up at me.

I truly believe my mother is a danger to the public, but I can’t get anywhere with it because no-one wants to admit to, or even research, female perpetrated violence.

Annie

Oxy,
I’m not too familiar with the Jaycee Dugard case, but in the case of Elizabeth Smart, the children of Wanda Barzee were so concerned that their mother was being portrayed as a poor helpless victim (arm candy) of Mitchell that they went on Oprah to make sure that people realized she was a sadist and abuser long before she ever met him.

Ox Drover

Annie, Jaycee dugard was kept for 18 years a captive and he fathered 2 children with her….she worked in his company and lived in the back yard in tents. He was on parole. It was only when 2 college cops noticed he was there preaching on the campus with small girls and they got suspicious and it started the chain reaction that got him arrested and Jaycee freed.

His wife of course was involved in the kidnap and the keeping her there, and of course knew about the babies etc.

I wasn’t aware that Wanda Barzee’s kids went on Oprah to make sure that people realized she was a saddist before she met him.

I knew my daughter in law was a psychopath, a mooch, a liar and a manipulator, but I never ever thought she would try to KILL my son C (her husband) Didn’t surprise me she stole from the egg donor but the attempted killing of C was a total surprise.

I also knew my son Patrick was a thief but it totally blew me away when he killed that girl. I realize now that if he had come home to live after he got out of prison the first time it would have been ME he killed for turning him in to the cops, not her (she had turned him in) and sometimes I feel “survivor’s guilt” that it was her that was killed,, not me. But I have no doubt that he would do his best to kill me if he was out…even if he knew he would be killed in the process.

darwinsmom

This is a sick case. I do think these two may have grown into a serial killer couple, if not for the call this teacher made to her friend beforehand. Serial killers tend to try it out initially with a very easy victim, someone they know. Heck most crimes, violence and murders are perpetrated by someone you know and trust against your better jugement (gut feeling). He sounds like the budding serial killer top dog, and she the enabler, but as sick as he is.

skylar

Annie,
please believe me that I’m not disagreeing with you – except for the part about DeBecker. I think the perception of men being more violent than women, has been around before he was born.

I agree with you that women can be equally spathy and dangerous. Women use the same ploy that my spath used, they come across as being harmless. For women, it is very easy to do this, while my spath had to use arm candy.

Just as men will get a female accomplice to do the luring, women will get a male accomplice to do the physical work. What makes the spaths so dangerous, is that they work together when they want to. Furthermore, they get unsuspecting dupes to help them as well. By allowing my spath to portray me as his wife, I gave him a legitimacy he didn’t have on his own.

He poisoned me so I couldn’t work. So when he was doing the pity ploy, he would tell his friends and potential dupes, that I was so sick and we had doctor bills and he felt so bad about it, so they gave him money. Yet, to my spath neighbors and his evil friends, he would say that I was an alcoholic drug addict that refused to work. This was so they would help him in his plan to kill me.

No matter what I did, he would use me as part of his mask. Just my presence was enough.

This is why it’s so important to recognize the scum of the earth and to shun it. No matter what you do, you WILL BE SUPPLY if you are in their vicinity because they are opportunistic.

G1S

I agree that portrayals of women as capable of violence and/or as aggressors is underplayed in many areas, including, I am afraid, here on LF.

When I first started coming here, and it’s the reason why I stayed away for as long as I did, was exactly for that reason. Women were almost always victims and the perpetrators were always men with, what seemed to me, a token woman thrown in here or there.

The abuse that I have suffered has come primarily from my mother and younger sister.

I grew up with emotionally unavailable men, who were nice and non-violent, just not there emotionally. I do gravitate to them because my instincts were women can’t be trusted.

I believe Dr. Hare and Dr. Babiak in their book, Snakes in Suits, talk about how there are certain professions, which attract certain personality types, that don’t buy the spins and manipulations or see through them very quickly. I happen to be in one of those fields, quality assurance.

My job is non-stop analysis as well has matching up the facts against statements. It makes me very unpopular in some quarters and with some people, but employers who depend on that information to make as informed decisions as possible appreciate my contributions. They love what I do.

The day that I get something wrong at work will be the kiss of death for my career because the powers-that-be couldn’t trust my input and those who resent what my job entails would delight in my failing and I’d never hear the end of it. It can get very stressful, but it’s a job that needs to be done.

Because I am required to analyze everything in the interest of fairness and being accurate, as well as check and recheck ad nauseum, I don’t get many things wrong. That’s not to brag. It doesn’t make me perfect. It means that if there is a way for someone to challenge my conclusions, they will. It can get very tedious and boring.

A lot of that checking and exploring everything comes from a survival skill that I learned growing up. My S mother sought to discredit me every way she could. That forced me to have to think of all possibilities and have answers because I knew that I’d end up getting abused in some way. I would get hit or punished in some other way for not knowing or being wrong.

Know what I hate? Statements like, “What mother wouldn’t want the best for her child? What mother wouldn’t give her life for her child? What mother wouldn’t sacrifice if it meant something better for her child?” Statements like that. Is anyone paying attention? Every day there are stories about mothers abusing, neglecting, starving, and killing their children. Ovaries no make a woman a caring person than a penis makes a man a good provider.

With my mother, I was seeking approval. I wanted to be told that I was right. Instead, what she said was, “You think you know everything, don’t you? You think you have all the answers.” So much for that.

Nobody has to convince me that woman can’t hurt or aren’t vicious. I’ve seen that happen so many times. I don’t know where Gavin de Becker got his beliefs about women. He was very abused as a child. Consequently, he might have an emotional need to see things that way. Write to him and let him know. He seems like he might be open to the feedback.

I read something recently online by a male author who said that it’s OK that women are so often portrayed as abuse and murder victims because there isn’t much public outcry over that.

His argument was that people get upset only over the elderly or children getting hurt or murdered, but women don’t matter. Nobody seems to care too much what happens to women; that’s shown in the media all the time. He hasn’t seen many objections to that. I have no idea what he’d been smoking or reading. I thought he was an idiot, but he was very sincere. The scary part is he was writing on a very acceptable, mainstream website.

Ox Drover

G1S my own egg donor isn’t a psychopath by anyone’s check list, but he is very toxic. She invalidated me even as a child. I also wanted approval, I did not get it. I could not get it. It hurt. I kept on trying to get it even as middle aged and older–but I finally saw the look of contempt on her face as she sneered at me while I was begging her to listen to me, to save her own life.

That look of contempt made me break free, the same way the look on my son Patrick’s face, the look of pure evil, made me break free from him.

Even then I would have allowed my egg donor to regain my trust if she had sat down and talked to me, acknowledged what she did, even “said she was sorry”—but what she said was “let’s just pretend none of this happened and start over.”

I have to laugh, because that has been her mantra from the start of my life…I just had to ignore whatever was bad and “pretend none of it happened.” I walked out of her house that day and haven’t been back. I can’t PRETEND any more.

Passive aggressive is aggression.

Yes, women can be “as mean as snakes” and as bad as mad dogs, maybe worse than men sometimes. Jezebels, Delilahs, etc.

People can be horrible, evil. Not just men. Not just women.

darwinsmom

Women can be as aggressive and dangerous as men. They have the advantage of being prejudicely regarded as the “weaker” sex. If they then attack, they have a surprise, shock and disbelief advantage. Adrenaline has as much a powerful effect in a woman than a man anyway. And yet, in general men are physically stronger, and also overall aggressive in a direct physical way, and culture condones it somewhat in men, certain cultures more than others especially towards women. But women are even better at disguising themselves, using unerhanded ways, backtalk, manipulation and silent aggression (lots of female serial killers were poison fans)… and that too has been culturally condoned and expected. These biases on both sexes are not totally unfounded, but are not the gender rule either. Male spaths can be as conniving, manipulating and underhanded as the cultural picture of “women”, and spath women can be as extremely aggressive as “men” are thought to be.

skylar

Oxy,
Your egg donor’s mantra “let’s just pretend none of this happened” is curiously similar to the common psychopathic refusal to talk about the past.

Let me see…from my spath brother, “That’s in the PAST! Why do you have to talk about the past?” and “You’re always bringing up the past!”

and from my ex-spath, “The past does not exist!”

It’s curious too that for people who don’t want to talk about the past when it comes to what THEY’VE DONE, they certainly hold grudges longer than anyone else.

When he was 12, ex-spath told his mom that he would hate her, “until the day I die.” And he does. Not only is he stuck in the past but he extends that past to all women he meets in the future, as if they had something to do with his anger at his mom for trying to force him to go to school.

I think this bizarre attitude about the past, forgetting their own transgressions but remembering everyone else’s, is a huge red flag.

Ox Drover

Sky, The past DOES exist, the best indiction of future behvior is past behavior.

20years

LOL, Skylar, was I married to your brother?!? word for word quote from my ex-husband. “you’re always bringing up the past!”

his past transgressions got transferred to me, though: “you hit me!” “you made legal threats against me”

Uhmm…. no. That would be YOU, dear ex-husband, against ME.

Ana

I know first hand how nasty and vile a woman can be. The spath that I knew was a woman (at least I think so). Lie, cheat, steal. On and on….She is truly a disgusting human being.

On another note, my friend Bob who has since passed used to infuriate his male friends with this:

“It’s not the woman in your bed, it’s the woman in your head that’s bothering you” LOL

darwinsmom

Methinks alls spaths are vile liars, cheaters, thiefs… 😉

Louise

Ana:

I agree. The woman I knew lied so much it was unbelievable. They think for some reason that no one will ever find them out. Really???

Ana

Dear Darwinsmom,
Yep, that’s right. 😉

Ana

Louise,
Of course they think no one will EVER find them out. They are far superior to us and much smarter…LOL

You should SEE her criminal record! My husband and I made a bet today. I think will be Oct. before she is evicted again…he say’s ok I think sooner! It’s good to have a laugh at their expense sometimes….

witsend

Skylar,
Holding grudges….Do you suppose that holding grudges is something that is a common for toxic/disordered people in general?

Growing up I noted that my father could REALLY hold a grudge. My mother once told me that my father had held a grudge for over 3 decades with some friends that he once belonged to a card club with. My fathers grudge basically broke up this club that was made of up friends that had been getting together monthly for many years.

She told me at the time what my father perceived these guys had done to him but I can’t remember the details now.
I DO however remember thinking at the time that it wasn’t such a big deal to still be angry about this 30 some years later.
I always wondered why he could never let things go? It seemed the more time that passed the more my father would get angry over “old stuff”.

In my fathers case I always put some of the blame on the fact that he was an alcoholic. Alcohol seemed to “fuel” his fire and also contributed to how he percieved himself as a victim and not the perpetrator in so many situations.

skylar

Witty,
I hadn’t thought of it but it sounds reasonable to me that being stuck in the past is equivalent to the definition of narcissism : emotionally arrested development.

So perhaps their attitude about the past is projection too.
When we bring up the past, they tell us that we are stuck in the past because actually THEY are stuck in the past (but pretending not to be)

They accuse us of everything ELSE they do, so why not this too. LOL!

I’m actually cracking myself up just thinking about how ridiculous their thinking is!

Yes 20years, you were married to my brother. One spath is the same as the next. There is no difference worth mentioning.
😆

Ana

Skylar,
Now, you’re cracking me up!!!

Annie

Skylar, no worries, I knew where you were coming from.

And my apologies – I was a bit grumpy back there!

I have to ask – are you really saying that your ex hated his mother his entire life because she tried to force him to go to school? I must be missing something here…?

witsend

Skylar,
I think as ridiculous as it sounds I think that you REALLY are onto something 🙂

It really can be all a projection thing with them.

It does take alot of practice to twist my brain around into even trying to figure out some of this “stinkin thinkin” that they do.

witsend

Annie,
I don’t think you are missing anything here….

I have heard Skylar speak about this before with her x.

My own son, I believe will never let go of his grudge/hatred for me for my attempt to keep him in school.

He actually LEFT home right after his 17th B-day. And much of HIS issue (from his perspective) although there were a TON of other issues….Was the school thing. At 15 & 16 he just didn’t want to go to school. But he didn’t want to explore any of the other options either. (alternative school or GED etc.)

Anyways after he left home he still went to school!!

The thing is when he left home the people that he stayed with required him to go to school too. But he still blames me that he “had” to stay in school.

His thoughts are that I ruined his life by thinking he should go to school.
So he “showed me”, I guess….By going to school and not getting any credits while he was there??

skylar

Ana,
I didn’t notice any grumpiness..?

Anyway, yes, my ex-spath didn’t like school and never went much or learned anything, but when his mom divorced his spath father for being an abuser and a serial cheater, spath got mad and would be truant all the time.

His mom was collecting welfare to raise the 6 boys and she was worried about losing the welfare if her kids were delinquent. So when she couldn’t get him to go to school, she had the cops put him in juvy to learn a lesson. When she went to see him, he told her, “I’ll hate you as long as I live!”

Unfortunately, she didn’t know that you can’t teach a spath ANYTHING. He was only 12 but he conned the juvy warden to get him his guitar – by crying his heart out – and then busted out of juvy with his guitar. He was on his own ever since then.

The funny thing is, one time I was admiring his skills and his intellect, I said, “Gee honey, you’re amazing, imagine all the things you could do if you had gone to school.”

Spath replied, “Yeah, imagine…”

I think that their defiance to learning is a self-limiting factor on what would other wise be a really genius evil.

Ana

Skylar,
I’m not at all grumpy are you? LOL

skylar

whoops!
sorry Ana and Annie, you guys LOOK a lot alike!
LOL!

No Ana, you arent’ grumpy.
No Annie, you aren’t grumpy either, but I can see you have a bone to pick with deBecker. I do appreciate his books very much.

I think that certain ingrained attitudes are hard to change, that’s why even knowing that there are many women spaths, my mind thinks of a spath as “he” more often than “she”.

I remember talking to an acquaintance and explaining to her that spaths don’t think like we do. She finally got it. She understood that they think backwards. She said, “I get it, whatever they say, just flip it.”

But it’s hard to remember to do that. Only a few minutes later, we were discussing something her spath said and I forgot and didn’t flip it. She had to remind me.

It really takes a toll on our brains.

darwinsmom

WHy would they hate school? Euhm, just brainstorming here:
-confronted with peers developing and growing up, but not them?
– the rules?
– having to share attention from teachers with more than a dozen peers who are in a teen-narcistic stage
– only way to get attention is negative one, but they’ll get detention and punishments over it, and so they feel even more woe-me

I just think HS must be an environment booby trapped with narcistic injuries

Ox Drover

Witty, I tried to keep Patrick out of prison…but HE SHOWED ME! LOL Yep, they showed us both!

skylar

Darwinsmom,
my exspath could barely spell and he hated school and quit.
My spath bro was a spelling bee champion in grade school and he hated school and quit too.

I think it has to do with their oppositional defiance disorder. If you tell them they should do it, then they won’t. If you tell them not to, then they will. Reverse psychology actually works on them if you can get them to believe you. You have to plan way ahead and make up lies as convoluted as theirs. lol!

As to why they are this way, I think it is because they feel like they can take away what you want. Whatever you want, they can take it away by not doing it. Whatever you value, they will destroy. But that only takes us deeper into the layer. There still remains the question as to why they need to do that.

My little niece when she was 15 about 10 years ago, became defiant, ran away and all that stuff. She called me and we talked. She said she never told her parents what she wanted because she knew they would just take it away from her, they would use it to try to control her. She was describing what spaths do and she was gray rocking them! Her dad is an N and both her parents were very controlling.

She was a good student but refused to go to college. I think she was taking away what they wanted because they had done that to her.

I also think that they had negated her as a person because she was very into fashion and the rest of her family is … “naturally gray rock” 🙂

So she was negating their values in defiance.

In other words, they tried to shame her for who she was so she retaliated in kind.

She’s doing quite well in the fashion world now.

Edit: it seems to me that everything spaths do revolves around their mothers. Even 50 years later, they are still sabotaging themselves, just to show their mothers. Even after their mothers are gone.

witsend

Oxy,
Yep, I suppose that is one way to look at it! Lol.

I can remember when school first became an issue…..It wasn’t long after that there were so many “issues” I didn’t know what to focus on first…
But anyways at first I just tried to reason with him. I was hoping to try using just plain old reasoning & logic!

Wow logic and reasoning! What was I thinking? At the time the only way I probably would have been able to get him to go to school and actually particiapte while he was there was to absolutely FORBID HIM TO GO TO SCHOOL & participate in actively getting his credits!

skylar

LOL Witty,
we must’ve posted over each other.

You are exactly right.

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