Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
I’m getting a bit cranky here.
How much research must be done in order to figure out that
1. Behavior isn’t nature or nurture, it’s nature and nurture.
2. Neglected and abused infants fail to thrive on every level, including the psycho-social.
3. It’s never too early to start treating a child well,
4. but it can be too late.
5. Troubled teens are sometimes ASP, and sometimes the victims of crappy parenting.
6. Kids who are the victims of crappy parenting usually pull themselves together by age 25.
7. ASP disordered people almost never recover.
I personally know adult victims of crappy parenting who have an extremely hard time figuring out how they feel, much less how anyone else feels. Empathy? You gotta be kidding! That doesn’t mean they treat people badly. It just means they live more deliberately than the touchy-feeling crowd. They learn to be observant, and ask the right questions in the right way. So no, empathy or lack of it doesn’t may a person behave badly.
The only useful nuggets I’ve seen recently are:
1. Bullies get pleasure from the suffering of others.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081107-bully-brain.html
If it’s as easy as doing brain imaging on a “conduct disordered” child to figure out which ones are future ASP cases and which need shelter from crazy parents, what are we waiting for?
2. We can identify kids in need of from bullying and cronic abuse.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/ps-sct051507.php
Given 1&2, we can objectively prove that the presence of the bullies is very hard on their normal peers. It effects the normal peer’s ability to learn, sleep, concentrate in class and experience joy. Not just at school either, but 24/7.
So why is this still OK? Why are targets still at the mercy of bullies at school?
Why keep on studying what conduct disordered kids say about themselves, what their parents say about them and what various authority figures say about them.
Let’s take action based on what we know about bullies, and apply behavioral sciene to correct the behavior.
People are getting hurt.
Can anybody else say “Class action suit”? Personally, I’m looking forward to it.
The first two paragraphs are the most intriguing to me! Are you going to go into more detail and answer those questions with this study?
I heard someone say something similar just this week,”I know underneath it all (lying, manipulating, cheating, smearing, etc.) there is a really good person inside.” Is that just something we WANT to believe? We want to have hope or have always been taught/conditioned that way?
Looking forward to next Friday, you are keeping us in suspense!
onajourney,
“Is that just something we WANT to believe? We want to have hope or have always been taught/conditioned that way?”
Yep.
Children dealing with crazy parenting often develop behaviors like lying or manipulating that work fairly well in the dysfunctional home. After they leave home, they pull themselves together and ditch these habits. That doesn’t mean that they might not revert if they go home for a visit. Many a confused spouse has said “I don’t like you when you’ve been around your parents.”
If you’re dealing with an adult who lies, manipulates, cheats and smears consistantly, there’s no “good person” inside. Transport them into a new environment, and they’ll continue to act badly. Ask them how many places they’ve lived, how many jobs they’ve had, etc. All those 2nd chances, but no turnaround? Pulease!
Dr. Leedom – Interesting article. One of my questions would be
“Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.”
– WHERE IS THE RESEARCH AS TO WHATS CAUSING THE CONDUCT DISORDER IN KIDS??????? NURTURE (OR LACK THERE OF) VS. NATURE (GENETIC)…
My nephew is 8 months younger than my son. My sister had post partum depression following his birth…for the first 3 months of his life she was wandering around in a shell of herself…she didnt know how to comfort him, often he cried himself to sleep or at best she fed him and put him down and walked away… once I became aware of the severity (she hid it for a while) until it became physically noticeable in her as well as her actions, moods, etc. We checked her into the hospital, I had her son for two weeks. His sleeping habits changed, his entire temperament was different by the time he left my house. To this day, her parenting is much different than mine (I have no problem with that but I would bet my life on the fact that she lacks the maternal instinct along with the atmoshpere he is in has greatly contributed to his personality and conduct disorder) but her genuine love for her child is off the charts – the way she parents him is another story…he is a conduct disordered child. He has issues in school, he has been removed from the baseball team, etc.etc.etc. Nature or Nurture. BOTH BOTH BOTH. Alot more times than solely a result of genetics.
I’ve had it. I woke up today– yes- not job yet– with major anxiety and blaming myself.
square one.
seeing a psychologist today.
no wonder I feel hopeless. I lost everything.
I will never know what would have happened if I had not angered him in such a bad way that nite. never! His mom was dying as we were arguing– suddenly dying– out of nowhere (from alcholoism)—
If I had not said or threatened what I did—
I am in a bad way.
Help me Lord please.
Okay– Oxy said– He is a lie. He is a lie. He is a lie. Must remember this.
Elizabeth –
If dealing with an adult who lies, manipulates, cheats and smears consistently theres no good person inside..
I do not believe this to be l00% true. Just transporting them to a different environment isnt going to stop them from what they know to do, have learned to do, conditioned to do. They are a victim of themselves. Genetic and environment…
If there was some kind of therapy, medication, intervention, training, awareness that there very well may be a reason for their altered behaviors – AND WE TREAT THEM – perhaps we could make real progress in the research.
Problem is none of them see themselves as being disordered.
My mother certainly NEVER did. Granted she wasnt diagnosed an S/P. But with therapy and medication – her beautiful soul shined through, there was a good person in there, a beautiful little girl who shut down, stopped growing, learning, trusting at the tender age of 16.
I wholeheartedly believe there is much to learn from the non-criminal S/P’s and what shaped their lives and need to “protect themselves” and survive …and then create their life based on their survival system. A dysfunctional survival system.
Akitameg = Good for you. Thats a huge step in the right direction. You have been through sooooooooo much Meg. Its alot for any woman to have to deal with. Im so glad you decided to get to the bottom of it.
Dont limit it to “that night” … Im sure there were so many nights before “that night” — If he loved you and cared about you – no amount of anything you do would cause him to treat you the way he did, let alone make you believe its your fault.
Take a deep breath Meg – you are a good person – you were protecting yourself that night – you were hurting 0r uncomfortable and you stood up for youself. Something you need to do more often and not question it.
Its your right to be who you are. You dont have to change or hide your discomfort or remain in a bad abusive relationship. You are a good person. You need time to talk about Meg… and find Meg again!!!! Keep us posted. My prayers are with you!!! Youre a fighter… youre going to be OKAY!! xoxo
Dear Meg!
Good for you for getting some therapy! I am not going to boink you or make your write any more sentences in detention hall! (((hug))) Smile. You got down the HE IS THE LIE!
I also think you are clinically depressed, and the obscessing is part of that too. I strongly suggest you get checked for depression and consider taking some meds. Your ER visit is typical of ER visits and you very well may have had “anxiety” but under the circumstances THAT IS NORMAL.
Depression is normal too when you have suffered a huge loss and the accompanying grief!
Believe me, Meg, my brain didn’t work well either under all the stressssssssss STRESSSSSSS and more STRESSSSSSS. So getting the basic concepts intellectually (though not emotionally) is at least the first step, now moving on to the next step, and that is some professional help is a great idea! I did and it was difficult for me to accept to “be on the WRONG side of the CLIPBOARD” but I did it cause I knew I had to have it or NOT HEAL. ((((hugs)))) and my prayers are always there fo ryou!
LoL and Oxy–
you have brought tears to my eyes with your support–
and I have not cried since my second week on this Prozac.
Thank you–
I cannot do this alone.
You know what– from reading above- my N– both his parents were major alcoholics– both died last year of it in their 60’s and the richest family in SC. Betty Ford– went to all of them. and they still dies of thir dis-ease.
So– it would make sense that he and his sibblings are personality disordered. manipulating. Then again– they admittidly had everything handed to them– even had the servants and each got 500,000 dollars as a wedding gift– and that was on top of their million dollar homes– for which they never paid– and being on the payroll all of their lives.
I need to think of me now– right LOL. The hell with mr. Bundy and why he is what he is. But– I literally have lost my life– job, career– great reputation in Charleston, performing, health–
So– it is no wonder– that — like an addiction to anything else– when I have to face the reality of my reality- of my aftermath–
that my thoughts go back to the last thing and person that made me feel good. Damn all of this.
LOL–
I love that you wrote–
don’t limit it to ‘that night”–
oh my gosh. How right you are!!!!!! I need to tattoo this on my hand or something. 🙂