Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
DEar Donna and Matt,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU BOTH—-it NEEDS TO BE NAMED AND DEFINED! It needs to be taught.
People are being taught now about depression and even the television ads for medication for depression are actually TEACHING people about their depression. A good one is the “Who does depression hurt?” ad. It shows that depression untreated hurts the person, the family, etc. and gives the people hope that XYZ drug can help them. I know it is aimed at selling drugs, but I actually think it is a positive thing rather than a negative thing. It shows that depression is a TREATABLE illness and that “you” don’t have to live in the abyss forever. So hopefully more people are seeking treatment. (If they have insurance, because the newer drugs are expensive) Fortunately, mine is now generic so cost is less. I KNOW how much it helps though, so would sell plasma if that was the only way I could get my medication. LOL
Since there IS NO TREATMENT for the psychopath at this point, the drug companies are not out there trying to educate people. The court system seems to accept the “politically correct” theory that there is “good in everyone” and that people like these can be “reformed” by therapy or anger management classes.
A friend of mine who was the therapist for an anger managmenet class for DV perps sent by the local judge (who sent a bunch of them) said that they were 99% Ps and all he was doing was teaching them to emotionally abuse their victims instead of knock the crap out of them and go to jail.
I think he was right.
The courts do not seem to even address EMOTIONAL or FINANCIAL abuse by the Ps (by whatever name). As long as you don’t HIT YOUR KIDS OR YOUR WIFE/HUSBAND you get off scot free and are PRESUMED TO LOVE YOUR KIDS at least.
Or you can hit your kids as long as you don’t leave any marks or do it in front of other people. And I am sure you know that there are 1000 ways to physically abuse kids without ever leaving a single mark. Especially if the kids are little.
I don’t, I am afraid, have much confidence in the “professionals” coming to some kind of agreement any time soon. I remember attending a conferance for a national nurse’s organization back in 1984 when there was the BIG DEBATE among the PhDs in nursing about making the BASIC entry level at least a BSN instead of the “certificate” programs or the two-year RN college courses. (there are still those 3 ways to become an RN) and I saw women up there on the podium actually HISSING AND SPITTING and NAME CALLING EACH OTHER….I swear I wanted to put my coat over my head and crawl on my hands and knees out of that auditorium so no one would see me or know I had been in that group of HARPIES. I have never seen such UNPROFESSIONAL BEHAVIOR in such an “exaulted” group of PhDs in my life. Some of these people had been my profs in college and I was so shocked and ASHAMED to even be a nurse.
It took 15 years after I got my advanced degree for them to even come to an agreement on what an “advanced degree” (which allows semi-indepndent practice of medicine) was. Now, there is a national test and it requires at least a MSN. Back when I was certified, I only had a 6 yr college program, and got a certificate for Registered Nurse Practitioner. The only national test we took was the one for RN.
Now the programs are uniform across the nation and all states. There is still some problems with many states accepting the licenses for RN without you being relicensed iin each state. I think there are 19 states that have a compact for accepting each other’s licenses, but I couldn’t go to New Orleans although I volunteered to go, because Louisiana doesn’t accept Arkansas’ RN or RNP or APN licenses so none of the hundreds of AR nurses that volunteered were allowed to go and work down there even as volunteers for free. Since NO records were gone, they couldn’t even get their chit together enough for the governor to sign a waiver. All because Louisiana wants to get a $50 relicense fee if an out of state RN wants to work there.
Of course the medical professional organization as a whole fought hard against the advance practice nurses and RNPs. My husband’s father, a physician in early Kentucky, which had one of THE worst infant and mother mortality rates in the world, FOUGHT HARD AGAINST the “Frountier Nursing” group that came in and trained lay midwives. I was also in the group that worked hard in the 80s for an approval here of RN midwives and even lay midwives because women and babies were dying in the delta from NO medical care during pregency and were having their babies on the side of the road trying to get to Little Rock’s public (state) hospital to have the child—a three hour drive.
I even trained some of the lay midwives and assessed their clinics and their home deliveries. Even though the doctors (in that day before medicaid payments for PG women) didn’t want these women as patients (no money) they didn’t want ANYONE to give them care since they thought the “care” wasn’t up to “their standards.” Now, let’s see….a physician isn’t possible cause no money, so rather than have a TRAINED midwife for normal births and to assess if the birth is going badly and call an ambulence, let’s keep them from having ANY care rather than the midwife. Make sense to me. NOT!
They actually drove one woman out of town and she had a great clinic….but she sued for harassment, won a multimillion dollar law suit and went to medical school!
There are no more midwives here now (essentially) but at least medicaid is paying for some prenatal care. Actually I think the prenatal care from physicians is not as good as it was from the midwives.
What I am trying to say though with all this long diatribe is that I don’t think the “professional” associations are necessarily acting “professional” and for the good of the public or the patients—and surely not for the victims.
I don’t have a lot of confidence that the “professionals” are not acting arbitrairly for whatever purpose—even if it is just to “win” their arguments and be “right.” I realize everyone has opinions, and I do too. Some of mine I imagine are as wrong as anyone else’s, but they need to come to SOME consensus and SOON.
They also need to accept that there ARE people for whom there is NO HOPE of “curing” or controlling their (for lack of a better word) their EVIL natures. All the nurturing and anger management classes that you can give to the Ps are not going to make them into Mother Theresa….they do NOT have a “good and kind nature hiding under all this child hood trauma that just needs to be brought out by an understanding therapist.” The “professionals” need to realize that these Ps are making real people suffer real pain and the victims don’t even know what is attacking them or why.
Okay, I am off my soap box. I am beinging to sound like Dr. Ann Salter, PhD on the subect of child molesters—she sounds pretty frustrated with the “justice” system. I’m glad she is there and I am glad she is speaking out though, and maybe she will do some good.
Dear All,
The situation lack of awareness of psychopathy has not changed one bit since Hervey Cleckley first wrote in 1941 (!) “I am encouraged by ever increasing evidence that few medical or social problems have ever so richly deserved and urgently demanded a hearing. It is still my conviction that this particular problem, in a practical sense, has had no hearing” (Cleckley, 1988, p. ix).
I think there should be a life skills class in high school that address such topics as goal setting, money management and dealing with cluster B’s.
It really galls me that even in classes in which the topic should be covered it is given such a cursory glance that it really doesn’t even register. Case in point – I took an abnormal psych class in college (along with myriad other psych classes for a minor) and learned about everything EXCEPT the cluster B’s! Given that I didn’t pursue a career in psych, very little of what I learned in that class benefitted me (despite being interesting). Some rudimentary understanding of thóse vampires – before being bled by one in every manner and watching a friend destroyed by another – would have been really helpful.
I am taking small steps toward integrating the topic into the curriculum of some business classes and hope to do much more in future.
I would love to see at least an article in the popular press – perhaps Self magazine, Men’s Health – something along those lines.
I’m not up to that yet. Hopefully some participant will take up the charge, or I’ll be in a position to do more at some point in the future.
I’m rather tire and I feel like I’m rambling a bit. I hope I am making some sense….
Leah: Absolutely you are making sense! As I started reading your post I was thinking “why didn’t my mother ever teach me anything?” and then you wrote there should be a life skills class in high school, that is a great idea! For years I have watched the TV shows about psycho killers and I just never “got it” that these personality disorders were in everyday people, not just murderers, someone that could be in MY life, I never learned to observe people or pay attention to what they do instead of what they say, etc. Just learned basic things about physical abuse.
If there were some articles in the mainstream press that would be wonderful, the magazines for young adults that I see in the supermarket just have sex tips on the cover! It would be fabulous if that is something you could work on in the future!
OK, so my daughter commandeered my laptop most of the weekend, to run programs that don’t like Macs. Caught up this morning….
“so no one would see me or know I had been in that group of HARPIES. I have never seen such UNPROFESSIONAL BEHAVIOR in such an “exaulted” group of PhDs in my life. Some of these people had been my profs in college and I was so shocked and ASHAMED to even be a nurse.”-OxDrover
Ox Drover…HARPIES…? From OZ? LOL! Interesting choice of words…a HARPY doesn’t mix well with CRONES and CURMUDGEONS….and I found a good definition…”predator”.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harpy
1capitalized : a foul malign creature in Greek mythology that is part woman and part bird
2 a: a predatory person : leech b: a shrewish woman
Oxy & Matt(hope your back is recovering)–update on my “friend” the convicted federal felon. He stopped by with his son Saturday night to visit. He turned 40 Saturday and the age matches now to the federal prison ID I’d found. Also, from lunch with another friend, he had been discussed on a local community blog, and she gave me the right “search string”, so I found appeals court records and news items. (unregistered firearm…12ga. shotgun, sawed-off, obliterated serial #…affiliation with a “skinhead” group at 20 years old). The “income tax” was posted by him on that local blog. When I asked him Saturday…he said (not knowing I knew)..”weapons, sawed-off shotgun”. He said, as he has before, prison saved his life.
Otherwise, life is good. Just waiting for Oxy, always wise, tactful, and diplomatic…to awake, caffeinate, and mount Fat, Hairy, or her soapbox…LOL
Thanks again for Lovefraud, an island of peace in a sea of P chaos. TOWANDO!
I spent Saturday afternoon with close to 20 teenage girls (both of my teenage daughter friends) celebrating her birthday at a luncheon. One by one, they all arrived for the most part…sweet as can be. As I was busy making sure everything was in place – my sister was quick to want to be introduced to her nieces “friends”. My sister is also a photographeraholic! Within a half hour she was by my side saying she just had the most awful interaction with one of the girls. She was taking a group picture and the girl completely ignored me, She asked her to please look her way and smile to be able to capture the group and the girl blatantly ignored her. In fact she said “I am not ready to have my picture taken, but when I am I will let you know”. I simply smirked at my sister (who has a 7 yr old little boy) and said “hormones, teenagers”… well it didnt stop there, the girl made a stink about wanting a different party favor one in her favorite color… and she continued to intentionally sabotage ever photo taken…Heres the most interesting part to me… for a fun special treat for my daughter I recruited a “fortune teller” for an hour during dessert – and it turned out to be alot of fun. she “read cards” and “gave fun advice” colleges, boys, careers (and shocking nailed some of their interests and personalities). THEN it was this same girls turn to sit in the seat…the reader said “Im sensing you are the type to really take care of yourself in a crowd, you really look out for yourself”. (SO INTERESTING, I THOUGHT_…then she said you have a new boyfriend (turns out this girl was involved with inappropriate behaviour amongst her peers in causing a break-up and ending up with the boy as her boyfriend. The woman innocently said “and you initiated it, you made it happen! IT WAS AN UNEXPECTED AWKWARD MOMENT FOR SURE! The girl said oh no, he did! The reading was rather quick and ODD, WEIRD, CHAOTIC, OFF (INTERESTING, I THOUGHT)…So on our way home I asked my daughter (Who by the way, thankfully doesnt have “a boyfriend” – rather uninterested – into sports -school-babysitting… but she is surrounded by teenage girls in her circle who are on fast track, dating seniors, dressing as though they are 25 not 16, etc… anyway my daughter said ” It was so unbelievable… the reader was spot on… the girl is always all about herself, me, me,me, me.. and if i tell her a story she always has to have one better to share…and she just sends off this bad vibe especially with adults – and everything has to be about her!
SO, THERE WE WERE IN THE CAR, DRIVING HOME ON MY DAUGTHERS 16TH BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION TALKING ABOUT NARCISSISM (sp) and PERSONALITY DISORDERS AND HOW TO DEAL WITH AND AVOID. She told me she knew something was off with her, and limits her contact with her, but that she has been part of their circle of friends since first grade.
Well this morning, after reading above posts (Leah) and the bully article and thinking about Saturday… I called and scheduled a meeting with the highschool guidance counsellor, told her would like to discuss instituting more education, information, classes or special programs on PERSONALITY DISORDERS – AND TEENAGERS RECOGNIZING, AVOIDING AND DEALING WITH IT IN SCHOOL AND IN THE REAL WORLD!!
To be continued…
Did anyone watch the show on Charles Manson last night on A and E?
I cannot believe how well I could relate to his victims.
I never knew he at first- acted like a giver and a healer! He said his commune was for peace and healing! He slowly worked on those lost teens– not quickly. My gosh, could I relate. At least he is in jail though.
and yep– like my N– he used sex to get people hooked– to feel loved.
Dear Meg,
I lived in Los Angeles at the time of those murders and they were front page news for months and months and then when the trial started it was all over the news day and night. I “lived” that whole thing over and over in the papers and news. Funny thing, Manson looks quite a bit like my P-sperm donor, except for the “hair” (my sperm donor is almost totally bald) but the funny thing, the most ODD and outstanding thing is the LOOK in Manson’s eyes. That look of RAGE of actually looking into Satan’s eyes,, it is the SAME as my P-sperm donor. Errie. I even recognized back then when I had no idea what a psychopath was that the LOOK was the same.
Even in prison, Manson is in his glory and still gets fan mail, which, reportedly, he has other inmates answer and sign his name so people cannot get an “original” manson signature to sell. LOL The con to the end. I imagine also that he enjoys a certain “status” among the cons. Thank God that he will remain in priosn for the rest of his natural life I am sure!
Learned the Lesson,
Your daughter is fortunate that you are addressing these topics with her before she reaches adulthood. 🙂
Leah – If I hadnt found LF… Im not sure I would be addressing these topics with both of them to the extent that I am. I CANNOT WAIT for Kathy’s book…debuting on or before her graduation… speaking of where are you Kathy?
It was late night several nights ago, Im pretty sure I was reading a new article of Kathys .. Part 6…regarding Anger…and my son had a severe low blood sugar, so I had to stop reading to treat him and wait it out with him…maybe even fell asleep…and when I went back to finish reading IT WAS GONE. For a moment I thought I had dreamed about reading it …but Im almost certain it was on and off the same night…. But nobody mentioned it … so I’ve been waiting for it to re-appear again! LOL
Kathy/Donna – please tell me Im not losing my mind!! lol
Anyway, I feel strongly about being proactive with the younger generations in bringing awareness into our schools, colleges. It wont remove S/P’s from society – but it sure will make their ability to infiltrate innocent lives much more difficult. Its something we should all seriously consider turning our negative experience into a positive for the younger generations, and for parents who are interested in educating their children on this topic.
Yes, I saw that article too. I’ll sure it will be reposted soon. The topic couldn’t be more timely for me. I seem to cycling back through the rage – only this time around it is directed more towards my ex-psychopath’s enabler and bagman – definitely a narcissist in his own right – and to a lesser extent towards the psychopath’s fan club.