Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
“They PRETEND to have empathy, they HAVE NONE. They learn the physical and verbal responses to “emotions” but they are incapa ble of feeling much besides glee and rage or anger.”
Oh, I know. I just meant that Ps can’t have empathy and if they could they’d no longer be Ps, and so ordinary people who can be empathetic but who choose not to are more frightening to me than Ps. I’ll read all the articles and resolve that P roommate is the last one who lasts longer than 5 minutes in my life.
Elizabeth. Thank you. I honestly wouldnt have believed it, if it werent for witnessing her on medication. IMHO she “checked out” of life as a young teenager – was there a genetic link to it also ? – maybe, probably. Was the situation she faced just too much to deal with, did she loose/ shut down/shut off trust, respect, emotion ? – maybe, probably. THE STRESS, THE INABILITY TO DEAL WITH, HANDLE, AND FUNCTION ADDED TO THE MIX..
To everyone reading, I have zero expertise on this subject. I only have hands on experience. I saw what medication and therapy did for my mom. And she was not, to my knowledge an S/P… but there were lies, manipulations, cheating and smears consistantly. Once medication was on board, there was some semblance of sanity, two-sided conversations, emapthy and focus on others around her, someone who was WAY WAY more balanced. Noticeably in every way.
Elizabeth you said something in a previous post that struck me… you said “When I broke contact I was cold as ice, because I had no emotion to spare for the S” – IMAGINE THAT EMOTIONLESS COLD AS ICE FEELING THAT YOU HAD HAPPENING TO A YOUNG CHILD WHO DIDNT KNOW HOW TO PROCESS IT, OR IT HELPED THE CHILD DROWN OUT/DEAL/COPE/GET THROUGH WHATEVER THE TRAUMA WAS IN THAT CHILDS LIFE…IMAGINE THE TRAUMA CONTINUING THROUGH THE YEARS — ISNT IT POSSIBLE THAT CHILD COULD CONDITION HIMSELF TO OPERATE THAT WAY, CONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY SHUT DOWN, BE COLD, ACT OUT BEHAVIORLY, ETC…. WHERE AS YOU ONLY FELT THAT WAY TOWARD THE S BECAUSE AS AN ADULT YOU WERE ABLE TO PROCESS THAT IT WAS LIMITED TO HIM AND YOUR INTERACTION WITH HIM.
SOME LF BLOGGERS EXPRESS THAT THEYVE BECOME PARANOID AFTER THEIR EXPERIENCE WITH THEIR S. IMAGINE A CHILD BECOMING PARANOID ABOUT OTHERS AFTER THEIR TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE…DEPENDING ON THEIR GENETIC MAKE-UP, SOME CHILDREN MIGHT COMPARTMENTALIZE IT TO A PARTICULAR INCIDENT AND MOVE ON… ANOTHER MIGHT STRUGGLE, INTERNALIZE AND STRESS AND INSTEAD OF COPING.. CHOOSE TO SHUT DOWN, SHUT OFF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING FROM EMPATHY TO HONESTY.
ANYONE OF US FROM OUR ADULT S/P EXPERIENCES (DEPENDING ON THE SEVERITY) COULD BECOME SEVERLY DEPRESSED, PARANOID, DISPLAY LESS AND LESS EMPATHY TOWARD OTHERS, BECOME SELFISH (SELF PROTECTIVE), WE COULD CHOOSE TO LIE TO OTHERS ABOUT HOW WE ARE FEELING (CO-WORKERS AND FRIENDS BECAUSE THEY DONT UNDERSTAND) WE CAN CHOOSE TO DISSASSOCIATE WITH WELL INTENDED BEINGS BECAUSE WE DONT TRUST THEM…AND THE LIST GOES ON…BUT, WE DONT, WE SEEK HELP UNDERSTANDING, WE LEARN AND GROW FROM OUR EXPERIENCE…JUST IMAGINE WHAT A CHILD MIGHT CHOOSE TO DO FROM A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE WHO CANT RECEIVE EMOTIONAL HELP, CANT LEARN AND GROW…AND HOW THE CHILD MIGHT GROW UP TO BE A FULL FLEDGED S/P.
AND LASTLY, I ALSO VERY MUCH BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE SOLELY GENETIC REASONS FOR THE SEVERELY DANGEROUS S/P’S IN THE WORLD. THEY WERE BORN WIRED THAT WAY. AINT NO AMOUNT OF LOVE, ATTENTION, DEVOTION, THERAPY, MEDICATION (WELL MAYBE MEDS??) BUT AS WITH ANY GENETIC DISORDER/DISEASE .. THERE ARE SO MANY UNKNOWN ANSWERS/RESOLUTIONS.
ALSO, I MAKE NO EXCUSES FOR THE S/P’S IN THE WORLD. FOR MANY IT MIGHT HAVE BECAME A CHOICE, A PROTECTIVE WAY OF LIFE… FOR OTHERS THEY SIMPLY JUST NEVER HAD THE CHANCE TO “FUNCTION”IN A HEALTHY WAY –THEIR LIVES WERE COMPLETE AND UTTER DYSFUNCTION AND THEY DIDNT QUITE “LOSE THOSE HABITS FROM HOME” ONCE THEY LEFT HOME..AND FOR OTHERS THEY WERE BORN INTO THE WORLD WITH BAD WIRING.
BUT TO SAY THAT THERE ISNT A GOOD PERSON INSIDE SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, IS SOMETHING I JUST CANT SUPPORT. IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON AND THEIR INDIVIDUAL LIFE EXPERIENCE LITERALLY FROM THEIR FIRST DAY OF LIFE AS IT RELATES TO NATURE AND NURTURE.
Respectfully Penelope,
Ps aren’t the only people who don’t have empathy. It’s been claimed that autistic people don’t have empathy either. That being conceded, autistic people usually behave ethically, and rarely break laws. Tell them what the rules are, and they try to follow them. Tell them you feel sad, and they generally try to cheer you up. Tell them they’ve done something that’s made you sad, and they’ll generally try to make amends and not re-offend.
So empathy is only one piece of the puzzle. There’s a growing body of evidence to suggest that some people with ASP disorder experience pleasure when others are hurt. At best, it seems they couldn’t care less if you are hurt.
Empathy is the emotional equivalent of a resonance to a frequency of sound. ie, a tuning fork will vibrate if the correct tone sounds in the vicinity. An empathetic person will actually feel sad when they receive cues that another person is sad, or feel angry around an angry person, or shock and stress in the presence of an injured person. If you find yourself taking a quick indrawn breath and feeling a prickle of raised hairs on your body when you see someone else get a paper cut, you’re relatively empathetic. Most people are to some degree, some more than others.
Clearly, empathy is helpful in understanding others, but it gets in the way of performing well as an emergency medical technician. The correct balance must be struck in order to be healthy.
Learned the Lesson,
I’m glad you retain optimism, and I’m overjoyed that your mother recovered to the extent she did.
I’ve dealt with severely depressed family members, and one whose condition was diagnosed and rediagnosed ever 3-5 years since the age of 15 or so. Another diagnosis and treatment plan, more pain, more chaos, more chrisis. When someone we love recovers from a mental illness, it’s like a new birth in the family. It’s so good to have them well.
May my cynicism eventually fade, but may I never lose the wariness. There’s simply been to much pain, and far too much risk. We’re lucky we weren’t harmed worse by the cluster Bs in our lives. All of them harmed other people far worse than they harmed us. My family and I have been warned!
Elizabeth – what if , as a child, youve had your hand intentionally burned by someone… and as an adult you see someone else get a papercut… and you dont take a quick indrawn breath or get a feeling of raised hairs on your body when you see that… does that mean you dont have empathy? – or does that mean that your empathy is now on a whole different dysfunctional level than someone who was never abused as a child. And to add to this thought, the child who was burned (abused) – may not have the ability to have empathy for others because of the dysfunction that child was exposed to.
These are just questions I wonder about. How can we draw conclusions based on the fact that people have come from so many different backgrounds, life experiences. And how does each and every person come out of their own individual experience…some for the better… some for the worse…
Thanks for listening and allowing me to express…
learnedthelesson,
I think there are plenty of people who don’t experience empathy for the reasons you describe, plus many other reasons, all due to experienced that resulted in a desensitization.
I could write volumes if it were 0500, but it’s not. This isn’t my “chatty time of day”!
All I have to say is that I don’t believe people should be made to feel ashamed of lacking empathy. We can’t be held responsible for having or not having empathy. That’s largely beyond our control.
We’re responsible for our behavior – period. End of story. No BS!
My ability to experience empathy has risen and fallen in response to various circumstanes and environments. I don’t see that there’s been any correlation between this emotional resonance and my ethics. Empathy an important aspect of the human experience, but it isn’t the be all and end all of existance.
Sigh,
I’m a morning person. What I meant was:
…all due to experiences…
Elizabeth… true that – empathy isnt the be all and end all of existance! But it is a beautiful trait to behold and be able to maintain throughout ones life… unfortunately desensitization and/or genetics dont always allow that to happen.
Elizabeth Conley,
You are right about autistic people being unempathetic but unmalicious. I think that people focus on Ps lack of empathy because it is so galling and hurtful to realize that someone you considered a trusted friend can’t feel your pain at all.
learnthelesson,
EC is right when she says that people who are for whatever reason unempathetic shouldn’t feel bad about it. Some people are none too empathetic but still treat people well. Personally, I find that I’m least empathetic when I am am wrapped up in a problem or issue of my own. When I am not self-focused I am much more empathetic and happy.
Elizabeth – I enjoy your posts and also admire your parenting techniques! I learnED from YOU to set SICK DAY RULES…for my teenagers! LOVED THE IDEA and the responsibility that is shared between myself and my kids on these days.
Regarding my chatty time … depends on the topic! LOL Thanks for your responses.. 🙂