Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
Penelope – I agree. My comment was more from the angle of why/how someone becomes unempathetic consistently (A Sociopath). We can all agree that S have no/show no empathy (other than mirroring others, etc.) but sometimes my question/curiosity is beyond what their behavior is – and more why?
Akitameg: I’m catching up, but you said, “I will never know what would have happened if I had not angered him in such a bad way that nite.”
Sweetie, it would have been the same outcome. He didn’t even need an excuse to “have an excuse.” The fight may well have been engineered by him for zero reason. He wasn’t capable of TREASURING YOU AS AN AMAZING HUMAN BEING!!!
I have also “lost everything.” I wish I could reclaim 20 years to be “only” in your position now. I know that your pain is consuming you — but NEVER think that you might have done something different that would have changed the outcome. He is who he is, and he is NOT someone you want to give more years of your life to.
I am revisiting past relationships and realizing how many years I gave to men who just could not love. They gave an appearance of “love” and I settled for that. Those are years I can never reclaim.
This may sound harsh, but be grateful that he showed himself this early to be what he is. It would only be worse if you were still “in love” and he was “in love” with you, and you were about to be trapped in a brutal loveless marriage with a horrible pre-nup and a predator husband who could now demolish you over time.
I feel for you. And I encourage you to realize that the greatest gift you got out of 2008 is that YOU ARE NOT WITH HIM!!! In spite of everything you’ve been through, you have been guarded by angels because you are distant enough that you don’t have a bad divorce right now, you don’t have children with him, and you are young enough to put all your compassionate energy into loving yourself back to health.
Oh my gosh– just say SLumdog Milli0naire. hated it. Excuse my spelling.
It could be part of the depression. Not enjoying much. And– going to a movie. Used to go wit him all the time and felt like the luckiest girl in the world (Before discard, etc.)
How am I supposed to start over at 39? In eery area of life. I am back in VA. I hate it here. Freezing– but I have nowhere else to stay right now. How do they get away with this?
Rune– just read your post!!!! THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH!!! Wow!!! I want to keep YOUR TAPE playing in my head.
dear learned,
The differences between your mom and the psychopaths is that your mom had a TREATABLE MENTAL ILLNESS. It was primarily genetic and resulted when the chemicals in her brain weren’t in balance,, distorting her thinking.
The psychopath, while they have a chemical make up different from ours, is not “Sick” it is just DIFFERENT. Your mom’s was a sickness, the psychopaths’ behavior is motivated by a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PROBLEM.
I am short. That is a genetic as well as influenced by how I was fed or not fed as a child, how much exercise I got, etc.
You ( the universal “you”) had the genetics to be tall, but you were starved as a child and so you are not tall, we are the same height.
Our friend had the genetics to be tall, got a good diet as a child and is 6 ft tall.
With the psychopath, they have the genetics to make decisions in how they behave. They are not out of touch with reality. Your mother was out of touch with reality because of her brain chemical imbalance. Environment played a part in it but it was mainly genetic so the “good person inside” was kept from emerging.
The psychopath however, never had the potential to be a “good person inside” they never had those hard wired neurons for bonding, your mother obviously did. your mother’s mental illness which is treatable with medication (but many times the people don’t realize that the medication helps them and it makes them feel bad so they quit taking it) The psychopath ENJOYS hurting others, this is a CHOICE.
I wish I could think that there WAS a good person down under that combination of genetics, environment and CHOICE. It would be comforting to me to believe that, but research and common sense have shown me that it is TOXIC HOPE, malignant hope, that keeps us (victims) bound to them searching for that splinter of human feeling in them, when it is NOT there.
My son is a psychopath, I had to acknowledge that finally, and realize that my son, the little boy I loved, is DEAD, and though his heart still beats in the chest of a murderous convict, MY SON IS DEAD. GONE. CANNOT RETURN to this life.
Doesn’t WANT to return. He likes things like they are. He sees nothing wrong with killing others because he is angry at them, or for gain (as for when he tried to have me killed).
I read a book written by a minister who was connected with Jefrey Dahmer after his incarceration. Jef played with this man just because he COULD—he pretended to “find jesus” and went though all the motions, but at the same time, he was running pen-pal relationship with 14 different women all who were his “true love” etc. The poor minister couldn’t understand WHY Jef did this. I KNOW WHY HE DID. Just cause he could! and it helped break the boredom of prison life to have the CON GOING. I am sure he laughed and laughed at these poor pathetic women who had “fallen in love with” the good person down inside this monster and eater of human flesh. The poor minister was so concerned for Jef’s soul and gave his love and compassion to this “penitent sinner” but it was ALL A CON. There is no “good” in them, they have chosen the “dark side of the force” and if they ever had a soul, it has long since withered.
Getting that through my head is all that has saved my own soul and sanity! (((hugs)))))
Oxy – I tried to express in my posts that my Mom was NOT an S/P.. and that the medication was able to help her NOT S/P’s.
And also tried to relay that I know very little about the whole nature/nurture aspects except what I experienced with my Mom and my ex-tox.
About my comment about the potential “good person” inside a non-criminal S/P…I didnt mean to the extent that I could befriend them, forgive them — I meant to the extent that underneath the dysfunctional non-criminal S/P – and one who POSSIBLY might have an environmental reason for being an S/P… there can be traces of a good person in there. Just never on the surface and certainly never when triggered. And in all honesty Oxy, maybe Im referring to personality disordered people, not S/Ps..
Basically, dont know enough to be making such statements, but from what I do know, I believe its not necessarily all genetics all the time even for non-criminal S/Ps.
Your son, the Dahmers of the world, etc. are the extreme end of the spectrum and I agree genetics robbed them of any potential for ever having “good” in them and the dark side of the force was not only their choice but their genetic destiny.
I am hundreds of books read behind you, and light years away from obtaining the knowledge and power you have created in your life. I admire you Dear Oxy, for all that you have become from all that you were given in your life…both unhealthy and healthy. Thank you for the continued insight… (((((hugs)))))
Learnthelesson and Oxy: Dr. Stone’s show keeps repeating the Dahmer story on TV in my state. Dr. Stone’s observation goes something like this: Dahmer’s parents divorced, they were so concerned who the youngest sibling would live with … they completely forgot about Jeffrey (being older and assuming he could take care of himself). Anyway, dad moves out and on with his life, marrying a second time … mom moved to another state … leaving Dahmer alone in the family home … no food, no money, no way of supporting himself (makes you wonder who’s the selfish folks in this scenario … MOM and DAD and the new WIFEY DOODLE!).
It was at this young time in his life (I believe teenage years) that Dahmer got obsessed with people leaving him behind (oh, really?) and couldn’t connect with people (oh, really again? … go figure, uh?). His victims were his way to experiment in trying to keep people he found attractive … to never leave him alone again.
I think Dr. Stone should follow up with his father, mother and his dad’s new wife … along with sonny boy youngest son to get the rest of the story of how selfish this entire family is. Come on, youngest brother doesn’t realize they left the oldest brother behind.
Give me a break with all these selfish people in the world.
Piece of cake, piece of lemon pie.
DEar Learned,
I don’t mean to indicate tht I think I know everything there is to know about these monsters, that’s for sure. Some are MORE toxic than others, just like POISONS–some a single drop will kill you and others you can drink a gallon and it will just make you sick.
I don’t think it is 100% genetic, but I do think that there is a great big genetic component. It is definitely there in animals so we are animals. Plus, the identical twin studies where the kids were raised apart shows that there is a big genetic component in it.
HOWEVER, THAT SAID—I do think they have CHOICES on how they behave. I do not think there is some “programming” like a robot that they are compelled to be “evil.” I think that people who have the genes to be alcoholics have CHOICES, they can NOT DRINK when they see the results of their drinking.
While there are some people who do not know right from wrong, and those people are not morally or legally held accountable for their behavior, the psychopaths (by whatever name you call them) KNOW it is wrong to kill, steal, lie, etc. but they simply do not CARE. They refuse to accept that society’s rules apply to THEM. They think everyone else should abide by these rules, but it is UNFAIR when they have to. LOL A choice.
My P son when he was 17, stole MY car out of my yard to haul the computers he stole from my friend’s business and put them OUT of business for months—but it was WRONG for me to turn him in to the cops. 21 years later he still holds a terrible grudge against me for that BETRAYAL OF HIM by me.
He knew it was “wrong” to steal, “wrong” to do what he did, but he does not internalize it or have any empathy or sense of remorse. He does NOT even see that killing the girl he killed is what put him in prison, it is because I turned him in to the cops when he was 17 in response to trying ANYTHING to save him from a life in prison (which I obviously was unable to do.)
I don’t doubt that I was able to pass on the genes, and yet, I am not a psychopath, I don’t behave like a psychopath. I also passed on other genes that are not expressed in me either, such as male pattern baldness. Both my natural sons are bald. Of course that has a hormonal link, but you get the idea.
The first signs of the P behavior were at age 11, and at the time I didn’t think much about it as being a sign of dark things to come. All kids lie sometimes, and most of them will “take things” that don’t belong to them. No big deal, you just deal with it. His was a bit different though, he denied, denied and DENIED he did it, even in the face of evidence that was not to be denied. Then he ran away from home. He was ENRAGED at me over it. He expressed no remorse. The behavior went undergound for a while as far as I can tell but he started to show some disordered and “odd” behavior out of character to his usually cooperative attitude about 15 when puberty hit all of a sudden and he grew to be a man in only a few months Full beard and all. He morphed into a monster. When I couldn’t handle him any more I was going to turn him in to social services and he ran again, and my egg donor took in the “poor abused darling” against my wishes, so I didn’t see much of him for a year and a half, until he decided he wanted to come home. We negotiated a return home and for a while he was “good.” By seniior year in high school, he was back stealing again and down hill from there. Apparently he was stealing the whole time he lived at my egg donor’s house, even stole from them.
Since he has been in prison this time, since 1991 for murder, I have let my love and my pity for his incarceration and his verbalized “changes” dupe me into being supportive of him (READ: Send money and visit)
A couple of years ago though, the mask slipped, and I cut off contact. Then he sent in the trojan horse-psychopath to rent a house from me and “become part of the family” and circle of trust to get close enough to kill me. Didn’t work out that way, but the Trojan horse did enough damage that the time was totally chaotic and crazy-making.
To make the choices he did and still does is what he lives for. The excitement, the thrill, the risk taking.
Just like lots of people who are Ps do these things—bernie Madoff, but more “socially acceptable” because he doesnt’ do it with a gun. But there isn’t a big difference in them and my son, or ted bundy either. They all do wht they choose and decide to do harm but don’t care what it does to others.
There is no crying little abused child in there, there is no spark of God in there….they have turned their backs on goodness and sold their souls to Satan for instant gratification of their twisted desires. Just as Satan tempted Eve—not for what he got out of it, but just to see her FALL. I think the story of Eve and the Serpent is the first story of a psychopathic con recorded. Eve may have been naive, but the serpent’s purpose was obvious to us—her down fall. His glee at seeing it, causing it. They are all like that and that is what their motivation is. If they also get some money or status along with it, fine, but the main thing is the con itself.
leaarnedthelesson:
A great fiction read on the “development” of a sociopathic personality is “The Bad Seed.” The first time you read it you’re focused on the daughter, who at 6 is already a full-blown S. When you read it the second time you realize that it is really the story of her mother coming to the realizaton that her daughter is a S, and there is no hope for her.
I grew up with a N mother, a S father and a conman brother who is a S. Witb the knowledge I have today, I can remember seeing all the signs in my brother early on. Once that train pulled out of the station, that was it. No therapy or anything else was going to help him.
My ex-S, from what I”ve gathered, was the same way. Already as a little kid knowing how to deliver the perfect verbal daggers, a perfect liar, a perfect thief, a perfect manipulator.
My brother, my boyfriend, cut from the same cloth and leaving trails of wreckage behind them.
Never saw any evidence of a “good” person trying to get out. Matter of fact, they were both perfectly happy with their inner landscape.
“Eve may have been naive, but the serpent’s purpose was obvious to us—her down fall. His glee at seeing it, causing it. They are all like that and that is what their motivation is.”
Mine was like that. He was hypersexual, but conning women was the real thrill and sex was the means to an end. They see relationships solely as a way to control people and would otherwise just be single since they don’t fall in love.
I told my therapist about my experience with P roommate and how glad I was when he left but how heartbroken I was when the house was empty and how I still wanted him back etc. and she told me that I needed to look at this experience as part of my larger distrust of men. That I rejected him sexually enough so much even though I wanted him and that when he did leave I was sad when I should have just slept with him while he was there if that was what I wanted.
That really pissed me off. I tried to explain how scary his eyes were but she told me I shouldn’t take his behavior personally because he treats everyone like that and I should look at my reactions as part of trust issues stemming from my mom’s treatment of me. She doesn’t seem to realize that, if anything, my mom’s treatment of me was good training for how to deal with a P. Angry, suspicious rejections are bad with normal people but the only way to deal with Ps.