Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
Oxy, Rune, Wini, and Checkeverypremise,
Thank you for your comments and insight last night. I find SO MUCH of what you share and know and your own personal EXPERIENCES AND OPINIONS very enlightening.
Esp. Checkeverypremise comments:
The viewpoint is that an individual with a strong psychopathic predisposition exposed to a bad environment will likely go on to develop what we commonly think of as the typical manifestations of psychopathy including a long criminal involvement.
An individual who has a psychopathic predisposition genetically and they are exposed to great environment then here she may channel their personality characteristics into legal enterprises for example a politician or policeman. Hare goes so far as to suggest that certain occupations benefit from this type of personality and he specifically cites examples of the politician and police who do better in conducting their responsibilities without much empathy.
A normal individual can develop criminal behaviors develop sociopathy if they are exposed to a bad environment
————————————–
With so much speculation, RUNES following statement is one I am supportive of and implement (now that I have experienced a non-criminal S/P in my life)… ]
While I hope for a cure for them – all levels of them – (for their own personal life experiences and the state of the world at large) we must be realistic about our ability (or rather present day INABILTY) to effect a cure on our “partners” in love relationships who are psychopathic.
I hope my comments dont offend anyone regarding my view that there very well may be traits of “a good person” inside NONCRIMINAL/NONVIOLENT S/P’s OR ASBs that got lost along the way in their genetic, environment and protective dysfunctional choices made in life, thus becoming a person who chooses to lie, cheat and steal, etc…
Just as there are traits of self-worth, self-trust and self-respect ” inside the victims of this people that got lost along the way in their genetic, environment and protective dysfunctional choices made in life, thus becoming a victim THAT CHOSE TO REMAIN with an S/P AFTER THE RED FLAGS WAVED IN FRONT OF THEM…
THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT ALL S/P’S HAVE A “POTENTIAL GOOD PERSON” BURIED INSIDE OF THEM IF THEY ARE A CRIMINAL VIOLENT S/P THEY MAY HAVE A MUCH STRONGER GENETIC LINK TO BEING BORN AN S/P NO MATTER WHAT THEIR ENVIRONMENT IS AND PERHAPS SHOULD BE IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT CATEGORY. NO AMOUNT OF LOVE, ATTENTION, NORMAL OR ABNORMAL ENVIRONMENT WILL ALTER THEIR WAY OF LIFE, CHOICES IN LIFE, DYSFUNCTIONAL LIFESTYLE.
Oxy, I hear everything you are relaying, I process it and I agree with so much of it. This is where I am tho, I am curious WHAT MAKES YOUR FRIEND “A CHRONIC FIXER AND TRIES TO HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE DOWN AND OUT” – IS THAT GENETIC OR A RESULT OF HER ENVIRONMENT OR CHOICE OR THE WAY SHE TURNED OUT BASED ON HER CHILDHOOD… AND WHAT MADE THE OTHER PERSON HAVE A DEPENDENT PERSONALITY DISORDER…GENETIC, ENVIRONMENT OR CHOICE??
I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE PLAIN AS DAY IN THEIR BEHAVIORS, THEIR MOTIVES, AND WHAT THEY KEEP ON DOING, MOVING ON TO THE NEXT, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON….
THE QUESTION, FOR ME, IS WHAT MAKES THEM THE WAY THEY ARE . THE RESEARCH TO DATE, IS NOT ENOUGH FOR ME TO AGREE THAT IT IS ALL PRIMARILY GENETIC.
JUST MY VIEW.
My apologies for giving away the ending, I did not realize that was where you were headed. You are also right about more women than men perpatrate child abuse, at least according to the govt stats:
More women (58%) than men (42%) are perpetrators of all forms of child maltreatment. (Child Maltreatment: Facts at a Glance CDC) http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/CM_Data_Sheet.pdf
I also agree that biased reports can not fully explain away the results but a combination of bias goes a bit in doing so. Bias views of all involved is the point I am making.
I also agree with you last paragraph. Again my apologies for spoiling it. That research/paper I linked was from 1999 so I did not think it would overlap with your piece.
learnthelesson,
Sick day rules – Thanx. I’m glad someone could use it. It took me time to get to that happy point. I had to grow a spine. That’s taken about 47 years!
Chatty times – I simply get tired in the evening. 9 PM is usually my bed time. I was up because my family likes to watch the Star Wars Clone Wars Cartoon series that airs locally at 9 PM on Saturday nights. I’m done by that hour. I can’t spell, I can’t punctuate, and I put together sentences that don’t make much sense.
Dear Learned,
My friend grew up in a dysfunctional home, and I suspect that the dependent PD did as well—but–were these environments dysfunctionall because of environment or genetics? I think, like all of our situations, a bit of both.
The PATTERNS of repeated behavior of trying to “fix” someone else is obvious in my friend, and it always, ALWAYS turns out bad. They get angry at her, she gets angry at them and the relationship crashes.
Enabling another person, even if they are WILLING or wanting to be enabled (like this woman apparently goes from fixer to fixer to meet her own needs for being “cared for”) Again,, the fixers don’t fix her the way she wants to be fixed, and give her security that they will take care of her forever. She is always insecure. It seems to never dawn on her that she can take care of herself. This is a HIGH ANXIETY disorder. The woman lives in continual fear of not being cared for. Eventually she becomes so dependent that unless she comes across someone who wants a very dependent person, she is always going to alienate her “fixer.”
I’ve seen multiple examples of this type of person in clinical practice, and most of the time they are in abusive relationships as the chronic victim, if there is a long term relationship. The man provides the living and the abuse and they provide the victim and the subservience for the abuser. I’ve seldom seen the genders reversed.
I have also seen this played out with the parents as the caretakers and an adult child as the dependent.
This particular case is one that is so “text book” once you know her history…right down the line.
Knowing the HISTORY of someone’s patterns of behavior in relationships I think is the key to “diagnosising” the toxic ones. But, getting the TRUE history from someone that is toxic is difficult. My XBF-P I casually knew for about 10 years in our living history group. During that time I was usually going without my husband to the larger events where we stayed 4-10 days, but though I talked and visited with the men, I primarily hung with the women or was occupied with the oxen, so I didn’t really know him all that well.
When he started courting me, he gave me ONE story, but as I listened to others who knew him better, ANOTHER pattern emerged, and I began to realize he had been a serial cheater on his wife, with several years-long relationships with multiple women at the same time. IS THAT A RED FLAG? Of course!
But by the time I found this out, I had my head in the FOG and convinced myself he would be “different with me.” I was “special.” (like in Romeo Bleeds) Of course I wasn’t and he was continuing those relationships while professing undying love for me.
People who cheat on their spouses for ANY reason (especially in this day and age where divorce is so easy) do not have a moral compass that I approve of. Those people are not someone I want to get involved with, just on the general principle that if they will cheat on her, they will cheat on me. (They don’t change, folks!)
Yet, I set aside this prejudice against cheaters and convinced myself he would be different with me. Only me, of course. WRONG!
Finally, he became so blatant that I could no longer ignore the truth, and though it ripped out my heart and threw me into a deep dark abys of self pity, worry that I would never find another love, etc. I realized I didn’t want the kind of “love” I had, with lies and more lies and cheating, worry, and pain, and kicked him to the curb and went into the abys in pain. I had 4 months of UP, 4 months of anxeity and pain, and then the pain of the break up. It could have been worse, I could have married him and had years more painful relationship problems. Then, divorced him.
The whole episode could have been stopped fairly early in the relationship if I had kicked him to the curb when I saw the PATTERNS IN HIS HISTORY OF BEHAVIOR, but by then I had “cranio-rectal inversion” and just didn’t want to believe the truth,, because of MY OWN NEEDINESS.
Being “Needy” sure puts you at a disadvantage and I sure qualified on that point. It has taken me several years to get out of the “needy” rut, but on that issue I think I am fine. I would LIKE to have another relationship, but I sure as heck am NOT going to lower my standards to get a “relationship” that will be far worse than NO relationship. That is what I did with the XBF, becasue at the time NO relationship was anxiety producing to me, and so some relationship was better than the prospect of no relationship.
At my age (62) I am pretty realistic now that there are not a lot of “good men” out there that would be interested in me. It is just the way the world is and a 62 year old guy who is on the ball enough that I would want him, can have a woman 40-45 who is a lot better looking than I am (to attract him in the first place). But, who knows, there might be someone come along that I would be interested in that would be interested in me. So far, those that are interested in me, I wouldn’t have them on a platter, baked to a golden crisp, with an apple in their mouths! Alone is no longer “lonely” and I’m okay with that.
Hello to all,
I have been a reader for almost 2 years and I very much appreciate all the information; I have a question, maybe you can help me figure it out:
My best friend of 20 years is married to a man (first and only boyfriend) for about 14 years (4 years of courtship and 10 or so married); I suspect he is abusive, actually he is, but I am wondering if he is borderline with being a sociopath.
During their courtship, he was impulsive, he finished high school but wasn’t motivated to go to the university, has/had not a father figure (his father abandoned his mother when he was a child and was an alcoholic), 2 of his brothers are drug addicts struggling with life (in their 40’s).
Anw, she got married and things are *ok*, however, when he gets annoyed or mad, he tends to 1.- be silent for hours even days towards my friend. 2. – say nasty things to my friend like “you are fat”, “you are envious of me”, “things are your fault”, etc., he has thrown things to her on a few occasions and he almost hit her (she turned away) from far away with an object (don’t remember).
They are 50/50 with their money, he is *nice*.
He has no friends, none; maybe one who he doesn’t see/visit.
When someone is in the hospital like a friend of the couple or a relative, he doesn’t go to visit the sick because “he doesn’t like hospitals”’ when my mother died of cancer, they both went to the hospital after she died and stayed there for about an hour or so because ’he doesn’t like hospitals”, mind you I am his wife’s best friend.
I see a lot of empathy issues in this guy.
His main excuse for being tempered is that my friend’s family (her mother, sisters) are/were always trying to be in their lives (in an unhealthy way) and gossiping about them, etc (I agree); however, I don’t think this justifies his aggressiveness towards my friend because 1.- my friend is the one who is always trying or in therapy because of these problems. 2.- if he is so mad and uncomfortable about her family’s dynamic (btw, he is not an example of the perfect family when it comes to healthy families), instead of yelling to her and calling her names and damaging with silence, why doesn’t he just leave and separate until things are better? His thing is to be aggressive. 3. – and to make matters worst, my friend’s actual therapist said something like:
“I am surprised that your husband is still with you because of the family problems that you have, you are lucky that he is still with you” with???
I am all for the fact that families of origin do play a big role in our marriages, and that marriages can be destroyed if we don’t have a healthy balance, HOWEVER, the fact that my friend is in therapy alone, how he treats he when a problem hits the relationship and the way that he is entitled to get away with it, makes me wonder, is this a case of domestic violence or am I seeing a socioP?
Opinions and comments are very welcome and I thank you very much!
Ps, her family *rumors* about him trying to be unfaithful to her a couple of years ago; also, when they were dating, another friend of mine told me that my friends then boyfriend-now husband, was very drunk one day and tried to seduce another of our friends, so there are 2 red flags of infidelity related to alcohol and this is why the whole thing started.
Little Blue Fish: Welcome to the site. I would suggest you tell your friend to come on to this site … read as much as she can, then start blogging with us. She’ll learn what she needs to learn about her marital situation. It doesn’t sound good, to say the least.
You are a good friend. Stay with her through good and bad times. She has to decide for herself what is going on. Basically, people who have major problems don’t convey those problems to anyone, not even his wife (who by the way, should be his best friend and the closest person to him in his life … bond of marriage, they become one … if he was healthy, that is) … he holds his cards close to his chest and is definitely controlling her.
I’d tell your friend to log on with us, so she can talk with anyone who is on line at the time. Whoever is on line, will gladly write her back.
As for you Little Blue Fish, stay on wit us too. Tell your friend, we are all in this together.
Peace to both you and your friend … as she begins her healing process.
Dear Blue fish,
Welcome to LF and glad you have been here reading and learning.
You are seeing DYSFUNCTION at the very LEAST, and I would also say abuse, at least emotional abuse, and the threats of physical violence when he throws things at her.
There are various things, including being a psychopath that cause people to “blame others” for what they themselves do.
I think your friend’s THERAPIST in telling her she is “lucky” to have this man stay with her, should advise your friend to get the heck out of that relationship. Many therapists don’t “get it” as you probably already know. But, your friend obviously is staying with him even in spite of the way he treats her.
I’m not sure you can get anywhere advising your friend to set boundaries and demand that he treat her better (because he won’t) and he is obviously not interested in going to therapy but she is.
I can only hope as I am sure you do, that the therapist will help her to figure out what she wants and where she should set boundaries. Unfortunately sometimes this kind of a “marriage” goes on for decades or a life time, but it is not one in which I would want to be involved. I think you feel the same way about this.
Whether the man is a psychopath or just a creepy dysfunctional JERK doesn’t matter as far as I am concerned, she would be better off and better able to heal way from him. Getting HER to agree with that may not be easy, and I’m not sure you should even try, but do be supportive of her by maybe saying something like:
“It sounds like you are hurting from the things he said/did to you?”
That VALIDATES her feelings without being critical of him (she has to come to her OWN conclusions about what she wants to DO about his behavior)
You might also ask her after validating her pain and discomfort, say something like. “What do YOU think you should do about this so that he won’t say things that hurt you?”
I would shy away from TELLING her what you think of this arsehole.
You might also print off a few articles from here to share with her, or give her the links to LF as well. Unfortunately, we can’t save our friends until they are ready to save themselves, we can only be there for them to support them and let them know we care. Even though this relationship is OBVIOUSLY BAD to you, when you are INVOLVED in one we tend to keep on the blinders which we call the “FOG” because if we admit even to ourselves how bad it is, we could not face the fact we would have to DO something besides biatch and cry. I’ve been there myself—but I finally took ACTION when the pain got to be too much. I hope your friend will too. She is fortunate to have a friend who DOES GET IT, I just hope she can GET IT as well. (((hugs))) and glad you are here. Welcome.
Little Blue Fish,
This man that you describe sounds very Narcissistic. I recall reading “don’t ever expect an N to be able to be there for you emotionally. He simply can not.” This sounds like your friend’s husband.
And Borderline… well, it’s all so similiar.
You ask if this is Domestic Violence or is this a Sociopath? Why does it have to be one or the other?
I think I understand very well what your friend is going through. Since the Bad Man never hit me, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what to call what was happening to me. I knew it was something.. he called it by the name of: “It’s all your fault” but I started to realize it had to be more than that.
Emotional abuse is difficult to explain since the abuser is so good at what they do… and the victim loses their sense of self. Since I have gotten out of my situation, I have often wondered if the Bad Man had punched me, would I have been able to leave him sooner? I don’t know… but it did take me a long time to realize that the way he treated me was not grounded in any truth about me.. it was plain and simple abuse and it was about him.. and whom he was. In other words, I did not provoke him. I did not deserve his poor treatment. There was nothing about me that made him do it… the only part I played was that I didn’t say “NO” for myself and I didn’t leave.
Your friend is still stuck in the thinking that people say the truth and she buys into what he is saying.. that things are her fault and that she is deserving of his punishing silences… and that if she would just change this or that about herself.. then he would love her… blah blah.
None of this is true. His abusive ways are entirely his problem.
Also, it sounds like your friend has been with this man since she was a teen. He has likely told her for years that she is lucky to be with him and that no one else would want her… she has yet to find herself and become the woman she is meant to be since she has had this BAD MAN crush her spirit for 14 years. When our esteem is in the garbage can, it’s hard to see the truth.
Invite your friend to join us. And ask her not to share what she learns here with her man. He will only tell her that it is she who is doing all this to him. I guarantee it!
There’s an army of people here just waiting to toss out a lifering and pull your friend into the LIFE BOAT… or help out with a flat tire.. (See Oxy’s essay on the road to recovery)
Did I answer the question?
My answer is, it doesn’t matter if your friend’s husband ia a Sociopath or a Narcissist or a Borderline. He might be all three! The main thing that matters is your friend is being degraded, damaged, exploited, abused. Honestly, I wish I could give your friend a big hug. I have been there sister! I have been there!
The human spirit is so powerful. I do hope your friend will not become a reader 10 years from now… We have so many readers, bless their hearts!!! that were in marriages like the one you describe for decades! My heart goes out to them and I admire their courage for getting out after having enduring so much abuse and manipulation. This is not the life we were meant to lead!
And lastly.. FIRE THAT THERAPIST!
Oxy.. you are so much more diplomatic. I need to learn that…
Thank you so much Ox and Wini,
Yes, as things are right now, and if the therapist continues with her “you are lucky he is with you despite all the family problems (her family that is)” line, then my friend will be *lost*.
I hope her therapist goes deeper into this apparent issues and who knows, maybe they will both go to therapy, or my friend dump this guy.
Yep, its an abusive situation, to say the least; I will tell her to come here and read; but one more question, what if the therapist continues her line of advice, and me the *opposite*, not that I will advice her, but suggest to come here? I suspect my friend will stay with her therapist line of advice because of the rationalization and justification going on, etc. ANW, I will be there for her, just in case she decides to actually do something about it, thank you!!!!