Recently, there has been some discussion on Lovefraud about the relationship between antisocial behavior and sociopathy as a disorder. It has been argued that antisocial behaviors are learned by some people and so not all people who are antisocial are sociopaths. The idea is that behavior that is learned may not reflect a person’s underlying personality, and can therefore be unlearned. Many people also believe that personality features such as low empathy indicate sociopathy more than does antisocial behavior.
The above issues are important because if pervasive antisocial behavior is reflective of a deeply rooted personality profile as opposed to “social learning” then there are many more “sociopaths” than if there are a large number of antisocials who are really nice loving people underneath all that nasty behavior.
In the past three months there also has been discussion here about sex differences in violent and antisocial tendencies. These two discussions often become one discussion because there are some who believe our society teaches males to be violent and antisocial and that again “social learning” (as opposed to personality features) accounts for sex differences in antisocial behavior.
I am teaching a university course in “The Psychology of Gender” this semester. Due to the lack of good unbiased texts for the class, I am teaching from original research papers. In that context I discovered one of the most amazing books I have ever read. That book is Sex Differences in Antisocial Behavior, by Dr. Terrie Moffitt and colleagues. Anyone who wants to understand sociopaths/psychopaths should read that book. It is well worth the $20.00 – $25.00 price.
The book is not an opinion driven textbook. It is a report of years of very thorough research — The Dunedin multidisciplinary health and development study which prospectively followed about 1500 men and women born between 4/1/1972 and 3/31/1973 in Dunedin, a provincial capital city on New Zealand’s South Island. The book covers the first 21 years of their lives. These individuals have been studied at age 32 and that data is reported in other sources. I obtained all those other sources and will share them with you.
The study collected comprehensive health data on all subjects; antisocial behavior was just one aspect of the research. They collected information every year or two by interviewing parents and teachers; and as the subjects got old enough they completed self-reports and brought friends and romantic partners in for interview. The researchers also accessed government and school records. The assessment tools used were well established valid instruments. They answered the following questions which also have implications for the etiology of antisocial behavior (ASB):
• Do males show increased ASB in all circumstances and in every antisocial activity?
• Are there sex differences in the developmental course of antisocial behavior?
• What is responsible for observed sex differences?
• Does ASB have different consequences for men and women?
In the next few weeks I will summarize and discuss their results in the context of other recent research. If we accept the 1 percent figure for PCL-R psychopathy in their population, we would expect about 15 psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder has about a 4 percent prevalence rate so we would expect 60 sociopaths based on that figure. Keep that in mind as I go through the findings.
To give you an idea of this comprehensive study here is an outline of the assessments made:
• Teacher reports done at 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (Rutter Child Scale)
• Self-reports were done at ages 11, 13, 15, 18, 21 (items included age appropriate antisocial and illegal acts).
• At ages 18 and 21 Study members were asked to nominate a friend or family member who knew them well to answer 4 items (problems with aggression, doing things against the law, alcohol, drug use).
Results
• The smallest sex difference was seen at age 15.
• Sex effect sizes ranged from d=.15 to d=.48 and indicated a small to moderate sex difference.
• The largest age difference in antisocial behavior was at age 21.
• Official records revealed a significant difference between males and females for every variable examined.
• Drug and alcohol use was most similar, but was still more common in males.
When they pooled the data on antisocial behavior they got results similar to those reported by psychopathy researchers including Dr. Robert Hare. These researchers say that “psychopaths” are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent and property crime in our society. In the Dunedin study most juveniles had broken the law but only a small number of juveniles were responsible for the majority of offending for both males and females. 50% of 64,062 “offenses” in 21 y/o males were reported by only 41 men (8%). 50% of the 23,613 offenses in women were reported by only 27 women (6%). The most active females were less prolific than their male counterparts.
There are several take-home messages given by the researchers:
• Males’ antisocial behavior is more often serious and is more likely to be sanctioned.
• Throughout the first two decades of life males consistently emerge as more antisocial than females with two exceptions.
• Males and females are most similar at age 15.
• Males and females are most similar in alcohol and drug use patterns.
To summarize then the Dunedin study identified a group of antisocial males and females whose pattern of antisocial behavior, beginning early in life resembles that of “psychopaths.” Most psychopathy researchers say that the disorder begins in childhood. The number of antisocial males and females identified by the researchers is very close to the number predicted, but was larger than expected. The researchers also collected personality profiles of all participants, data on intimate partner violence perpetration and data on whether subjects qualified for the diagnosis of conduct disorder. Kids with conduct disorder are considered to be “psychopaths in the making.” I will share those results with you in the next weeks.
I was curious to know what her family felt about the whole situation. They didn’t really divulge much of her family of origin at all other than to allude us to them being so called upper class. My experience is that it is part genetics and part environment and that families are usually in denial.
kindheart48:
That’s an interesting point — that they labelled her.
Yesterday I finished Ann Rule’s newest book “Too Late To Say Goodbye” which discussed Barton Corbin, the Atlanta dentist, who pleaded guilty to the 2004 murder of his wife, Jennifer Corbin and the 1990 murder of his girlfriend, Dolly Hearn.
I read the book, and all of the indicia of his sociopathy were jumping off the page at me. However, I don’t think she used the words sociopath or psycopath once.
She did a phenomenal job of describing how this particular sociopath operated. In the case of Dolly Hearn, a young woman who was a year from graduating from dental school, he stalked her, tried to destroy her career, harrassed her and had her living n terror. With his wife, there was the abuse of his wife and children, the inflated sense of entitlement, and on down the line.
I think by not doing so she missed an opportunity to educate the public about sociopaths. This guy was a dentist, lovely wife, two kids and suburban house. But, he was a cold-blooded killer.
The book, like all of Ann Rule’s book is a great read. But, like I said in a post yesterday, any of the bloggers on this site who are still missing their ex-S, and thinking there is a “good person” somewhere inside of these creatures, this book completely disproves that — indeed both the victims made that very mistake with him.
Matt: I find that by not stating what the personalities is … is abuse by the writer. Think about it. Why beat around the bush with such a horrific topic? I feel like everyone (except for LF and other advocates against abuse of any kind) are still shoving abuse under the carpets. I think there are more predators or game players (as they want to be called) are out there and are comfortable with their conditioning. Remember, acknowledging a problem is half the battle … working on it takes patience and persistence. How many people want to endure the riggers of change?
I do believe because our society has been conditioned (aka made comfortable) with violence is the reason why it doesn’t change.
I hope people like Oprah, CNN, and the other news media … don’t let this topic be swept to the side. It’s out now … let’s focus on a world wide resolution.
Peace.
I read Ann’s bookk on Ted Bundy SEVERAL TIMES, and she seems like she “doesn’t completely get it” about what a psychopath is. Actually she is a good writer and detective, etc. but she is NOT DOING WHAT SHE COULD TO EDUCATE PEOPLE TO Ps. Her books leave the idea that “no one could have known”—also she was very enabling to Ted even after anyone else would have KNOWN he was guilty as sin, she didn’t step up to the plate.
I’m Just not sure Ann gets it.
A friend of mine and I got on a “kick” a few years ago of reading all t he pulp-fiction on “true crime” and we passed the books back and forth and bought more and resold them to the used book store. They were terrible books about terrible crimes by terrible psychopaths. Of couse they were written to “shock”–sort of like the National Enquirer or Jerry Springer etc.–but the arrogance of these psychopaths is beyond belief EVEN FOR US here on LF.
People read that crap and don’t truly comprehend it is REAL that people in “real life” do this crap, and sometimes get away with it for years or even forever.
They just recently found 13 bodies in New Mexico and the guy they think did it is dead, but had a criminal record a mile long of violent crimes including murder. What is it with letting people convicted of murder OUT EVER!!!! Is murder not a freaking crime any more?
I am becoming more and more a “three strikes and you are out” advocate—keep these violent people in prison for life. Use more moderate punishments for reforming non-violent criminals. Put ankle GPS bracelets on them if they are ever let out, and especially DV perps.
Take these kids away from abusive parents and DO NOT TRY TO ‘REUNITE THE FAMILY”—crap, if they are abusing the kid you cannot “help” them. Try to save the kid at least. I know, I am on a rant, but it is too dark to ride Fat Ass and too cold besides, and my arm is tired from swinging the skillet, so I will get off the soap box! But it just doesn’t make any freaking sense to me!!!!
I have a somewhat different view on it being “abuse by the writer.” Some people who are exposed to these awful acts become hypersensitive about it. I think that becoming obssessed over a label is less important than educating people that there are bad, nasty, manipulative people in the world and people should be aware of them. If you describe a psychopath and their behaviors and say watch out for this than the label (non clinical/legal wise anyways) is less important. In fact I think that getting hung up on the label can be more harmful because there is still no consensus on it yet and it is a subjective area when it is used so the confusion caused by the label can add to problem.
Oxy: Exactly. That’s exactly what it is. People believe that this is impossible or worse yet, blame the victim. That’s why John did what he did to me. Who would believe her …? She’s already going through what her bosses did … the woman has just gone over the edge … he banked on it. So far, he’s gotten away with it. The cops aren’t picking him up, even though he stole thousands of dollars worth of my items from my house. My 2 vehicles are garaged, just rotting there because they are in his name now (but I paid for them) , I don’t have a job to ensure them, keep the taxes going, keep them running and heaven forbid put gas in them (gas is a luxury today). That’s $80,000 dollars right there that is just rotting. They bank on no one believes you … that’s how they get away with it. No one believes it and everyone is only concerned about what’s going on with them …as long as this happened to someone else … don’t rock my world with your concerns. Put the blame on the victim and life goes on. It happens all the time.
I’m living proof. Donna Andersen is living proof … all of us on this site, are living proof that these people do this and get away with it. But the public … the public still views it as … what did you do to deserve this … or, you are so shocked over your situation, it can’t be as bad as it is… or it happens somewhere else in the country, not in our city/our state/our town …It’s that denial on a national level.
Besides, it starts from the top down. A politician is dirty … does he go to prison? No. He collects his pension and goes on with his life. CEOs make 10 times your salary because the guy married the bosses daughter or is a psychopath and conned his way to the top… does nothing for the millions he makes … and everyone accepts it… while the guy is on the golf course on a daily basis. The good ole boy network is alive and doing very well in this country.
You can have all the evidence in the world (like I did … firewall catching them destroying your work, and documentation up the ying/yang) … and they all make deals behind the scenes … shut you up, throw you away and life goes on for them and who cares about the victims.
I believe our country is in a roll of the dice mentality … oh, oh, that person just went down … let’s step over the body and hope the blood doesn’t splatter on us.
Peace.
I keep going back to pre-WWII Germany and so many of the Jewish people who COULD have left, stayed in denial until they came in the trucks with bayonets to take them away to the death camps.
The “stories” that filtered into the US were not believed because they were “too terrible” and “No one, even Hitler would do that.”
Mao killed 60 million–that is sixty MILLION—and the world sat passively by. Stalin may have also killed upwards of 60 million as well. Psychopaths in power, all, but the population stayed in denial and didn’t for the most part run while they could.
Southern Africa and Darfur is a hell hole and the world ignores it.
I can rationalize that I “can’t do anything about it” and that is true…I am just one old jackass riding, skillet wielding old bat, but I will do what I can WHERE I CAN to make life better for those I can, without enabling them or making myself a patsy or a martyr. I’ve done enough of that to last a life time!
Oxy: Not only what they did to he Jews, what they did to all of Europe. I am from “those” people. I’m of Polish decent. How they took over Poland was to take all weapons away from the people, a year or so before the invasion. What did my ancestors do … they fought the enemy with sticks and stones, in trees, behind buildings … what did the Nazi’s have, tanks, machine guns, bayonetts, grenades … was it a fair fight? Not on anyone’s life. It was all systematically done … they mapped out all of Europe, 1st the potato famine in Ireland … look at the map … across the globe … it was mass genocide of all people, not just the Jewish people (they were used as the escape goat – so the rest of Europe wasn’t going to be on alert) … it was global all over Europe. First the Jewish people, then it would have gone from country to country.
Then my bosses wanted to act like Hitlers … the majority of us they hit were of Polish decent. Polish and Black Americans.
Shame on all the politicians from my state.
Oxy: As soon as I stated to the Union that everyone our bosses went after were of Polish decent and Black American’s … you never saw so many Polish and Black Americans in our place of employment FINALLY get promoted…. just so they could say when they got into court … that what we were witnessing wasn’t true!
Funny, do you think any of those co-workers of Polish decent and Black American decent even know how or why they got promoted. To this day, those same folks think the victims did something to those bosses.
I still shake my head with most folks out there … clueless, clueless, clueless … don’t rock their world.
In a way, the economy going into the toilet is probably the best thing to happen to this country in the last 60 years … to wake a few people up from their COMAS.
Sorry folks … it’s still a sore subject for me … the victims getting blamed for the atrocities caused by the anti-social personalities in our world. I think it will always be a sore spot to me.
Just think Oxy, even with all those awful things you mentioned it used to be a lot worse as you go back in time. It can be hard to see how things are better when in the middle of it all but if you look at the big picture, society in general is slowly (to slowly I think) getting less and less violent and less accepting of numerous anti-social behaviors. Of course this is rather meaningless to the person who is being effected by these things currently but, for me at least, it is somewhat reassuring that we are headed in the right direction. Two steps forward, one step back sometimes 3 back even. That si why I enjoy this video so much http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/163