Having spent time listening to many psychopathy researchers, I can attest to many times coming away with the feeling that very critical insights are being missed. An appreciation for the bigger picture just isn’t there yet. For me the bigger picture always includes the family. A sociopath may prey on strangers, but usually that is after a lifetime of practice on family members. The reason this piece is so critical is that the personality disorder, psychopathy is a pervasive disorder of human social behavior that affects every relationship the disordered person has.
Considering what this disorder actually is- a pervasive disorder of human social behavior, the perspective of family members becomes very important. Methods of victimization of others also shed light on the nature of the disorder itself. I think this may be the only psychiatric disorder that would not be present if the affected person was lost alone on an island somewhere. That observation is often lost amid the abnormal brain scans and cognitive tests that are sometimes seen in affected persons.
Without the balance of hearing from victims and family members theories of psychopathy can even miss the central features of the disorder. For example, one new theory of psychopathy called the Triarchic Theory, states that the three traits of boldness, meanness and dysinhibition tell the entire story. The theory is actually better than this sounds but meanness is not what the authors of the theory think it is. If sociopaths were obviously mean, there would not be as many victims.
Given the assertions of the Triarchic Theory it is not surprising that the DSM 5 Personality Disorders Task Force proposed that “acknowledgement and articulation of other emotions (than anger) such as love and anxiety is rare.” Researchers need to put their theories into a perspective that can only be gained through real life outside the laboratory. Therefore it is critical that meetings include work on victims and their experiences, as subjective and “unscientific” as this may sound.
The posters Donna and I presented were an opportunity to challenge researchers to consider their words and assertions carefully. Many came away from reading them doing just that. I had to explain why the language proposed for DSM 5 is wrong, as many tried to defend the proposed statement as true.
There were also two posters from Adelle Forth’s group out of Canada’s Carleton University by graduate students Henriette Bergstrom and Janelle Beaudette on the effects of victimization by a psychopath on victims’ relationship functioning and physical health. This group has identified several themes in the narrative stories of victims, ongoing suffering, transformation and transcendence. But they also say those victims who came through the experience stronger did not really describe how.
This group has identified something I think is very important, that is the question of how to survive victimization and grow from the experience. The fact that a relationship with a sociopath has detrimental effects on psychological, emotional and physical health that lasts for years after the relationship has ended, tells us a great deal about what this disorder is about.
Watch the video: Donna Andersen explains Lovefraud research at psychopathy conference.
Eden,
There is no “right” or “wrong” answer to your question I think, but here is my VIEW.
Let’s say a total stranger that you dont’ even know walks up to you and says “you are such a stupid, ugly bitch, you are fat and buck toothed and your eyes are crossed.”
Now, would that crush you to the bone because this total stranger swaid something this negative to you? Of course not, you woulod wonder instead, “what is wrong with that person?” you would NOT wonder “what is wrong with me?”
Now, if someone you LOVE A LOT (emotions as well as the action verb of “love” that means you are good to them) says to you “Eden, you are stupid, ugly, fat, disgusting, not sexy and I hate you.” HOW IS THAT GONNA MAKE YOU FEEL? Well, I would guess CRUSHED is the least of it—why the differences in how you feel for someone saying something mean to you? Well, the person you don’t love, their opinion doesn’t mean much, but the person you love, their OPINION MEANS EVERYTHING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THEM.
Since the psychopath isn’t able to Feel EMOTIONAL LOVE (they can feel anger, rage, jealousy etc,, but NOT LOVE….you can’t “hurt” them in the way if we love them that they can HURT US, though you can piss them off….but they can learn the FAKE “hurt” (in other words the words to say but not the real feelings that go with being “hurt” by someone you love)
It isn’t that they have NO emotions, but there are some emotions they can’t feel, like bonding and love, but they can feel envy, jealousy, anger, rage, revenge, etc. hate….or even indifference, but not love.
Does that make sense?
Oxy, you said:
“Now, if someone you LOVE A LOT (emotions as well as the action verb of “love” that means you are good to them) says to you “Eden, you are stupid, ugly, fat, disgusting, not sexy and I hate you.” HOW IS THAT GONNA MAKE YOU FEEL? Well, I would guess CRUSHED is the least of it—why the differences in how you feel for someone saying something mean to you? Well, the person you don’t love, their opinion doesn’t mean much, but the person you love, their OPINION MEANS EVERYTHING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THEM.”
You are correct that when someone you LOVE says something like that to you, you are crushed! But a spath KNOWS this, so his INTENT is to HURT you with those words KNOWING that you love him.
I don’t know what you mean by “fake” hurt, or rather it’s another fancy way of saying, “they know the WORDS, but NOT the music”.
You can’t “fake” something you don’t know. But you can say the words and not have it have any meaning at all.
I agree with you that spaths feels envy and hate. And they are vindictive, raging when they think it’s necessary for affect, but all of it is for the intent to cause pain.
And that is exactly what a spath is doing when he says “You’re hurting me”. He KNOWS how it will affect you.
They’re just evil.
LL
Thank you, Oxy! I completely forgot about the fact that they can feel the emotions that you have listed above. Now I am puzzeled about why I had forgotten. Maybe because not reading as much anymore, and stopped comimng here as much as I used to. Thank you for reminding me of that. It is such an important piece of the puzzle. One in which I should not be able to forget. I think in the past two weeks, I have slightly regressed. I wish not, but it is what it is, I guess. Just showing that this whole thing is unpredictable. Hmmm. I like knowing what is up ahead. It is not so fun being aware that I cannot depend on when I will have a setback. Maybe I will look harder at what provoked it, and try to make changes based on that. Thank you so much for being here for me when I need some help. Even just the reaching out you do, besides the good advise and words of wisdome help so much. I think I am back in a place in my head/thoughts at the moment where I need to be here, more. I got to so much peace and serenity that I didn’t want to risk losing it by coming here nd possibly being triggered, but I don’t know what is more important, showing up and being with all of my supportive friends here, and being supportive myself, as well. Or staying away for periods of time, to lessen the risk of being triggered or starting to obsess, once again. I think now I am rambling. Thank you for listening.
Love,
Esen
Hi Oxy & LL,
So, in other words they can only feel negative emotions? Sounds about right, but why would they be able to feel envy, hate, rage etc..and not any good emotions? It must be cause the S*ck!!!
Dear Eden,
If you are being triggered, I think that means that you have more work to do and so actually the triggers may be painful at the moment, but at the same time they are an indicator that we have some things we still need to process.
So just come here and read some articles, and work on the things that trigger you….figure out why you are being triggered by “that” trigger…what is it about that particular thing that “triggers” you?
When we get one problem “solved” and dealt with sometimes there are others deeper down that we need to work on, like the peeling the onion thing we often talk about….I’m getting pretty good at PEELING NOW LOL Fixing one thing and something else shows up that the first thing was masking. So back to work, always new things to learn and deal with. But that’s okay because learning and growth is what life is all about. We should never stop learning or gorwing! (((hugs))))
I have heard that there seems to be a lack of bonding hormone receptors (oxytocin receptors) which keeps them from bonding the way normal people do, or normal mammals for that matter.
Thank you so much, LL! Missing you, much. Your reply to my inquiry is so poinient, as well. It helpsa me to gain more of my own insight, and reminds me that you and I had almost identical spaths, all of your descriptive words match my P perfectly, and I can understand, most thouroughly what you have indicated that he was doing while simply telling me that it hurt him to hear what I had questioned him about, or that I had in fact questioned him about it at all. I remember when he said to me: “Unfortunately, Eden, when you do this, it cause me to no longer be atracted to you”. After everything that I have learned about Pism, in the past 6 or so months, it is quite laughable, reading what I just wrote (his words). But just goes to show…….
What’s new with you? I hope you are doing great!
Love,
E
Don’t mean to add to the confusion. Maybe it’s just me still sorting this out. Addiction is a narcissist. He never indicates he feels any kind of love, just for his mother. BUT he did say he was careful to not get too close to certain women because SOME women cause pain. As in he gets hurt. After I dumped him and put him into NC, I accidentally ran smack into him face to face and he looked so hurt. After I left, a friend of mine said he looked very sad the whole rest of the afternoon which she found unusual because he usually is very upbeat. I asked her if it seemed like an act, she said no he genuinely looked sad after he ran into me. Maybe sad because he lost some supply?? Sad because his ego was bruised or sad because I hurt him?
Now I know these guys (and gals) can act and win an Oscar. BUT my point is he is a narcissist and PERHAPS can sometimes feel hurt where as a sociopath full-blown psychopath cannot feel hurt, pain etc. I just can’t seem to see it any other way and I don’t think it’s because I am wanting to delude myself. I believe that narcissists can feel some emotions aside from negative ones. Just an opinion and I am open to being corrected :).
Thank you very much, Ox! I forgot about the peeling the onion analogy (sp?) I remember learning that here, from you. But if I am to be completely honest, I had thought I had finished peeling the onion. Are you laughing. I know… Sigh… I am experiencing profoundly the truth in your statememt:
“Fixing one thing and something else shows up that the first thing was masking”. I totally noticed that with such clarity, the other day. I realized that as I heel from one aspect of the wound, a different aspect comes into play. Yukkiess! No likey! Thank you very, very much for helping me. I have been reading much here in the past few days. Just not posting so much, but the posting, and the questions helps me and I must do it more often, I think.
Much Love,
Eden
adamsrib,
That is some great information. I think that, as Oxy said, no right or wrong on this? I know for sure that my P is a full blown P, with many more unfortunate characteristics than just Narcissism, but I do so appreciate your explanation as well as a view into your own experience. I think that you arrived here at a time when I was not coming around. I like to know what other’s history is so I can both, help and LEARN. I actually thought I was past all od the crappiest parts of the healing process/aftermath, but I am seeing “NOT”. Still going strong, but not as strong as a few weeks ago. The things that Ox states above, are so true, and you can be sure that I will be coming around here much more often from here on out.
Peace…
Eden