By | January 17, 2011 95 Comments

Sociopaths and credit cards

Sociopaths love credit cards—especially when they are in someone else’s name. Lovefraud recently received an e-mail from a woman whose daughter is married to a sociopath. “How do they do it?” she asked. “How do they get you to put credit cards in your name that they will use?”

Our daughter has now procured a card, ugh, (only found out since the billing came here) and I know this is for HIS use and he will be the one using it, burying her in debt that she will never get out of and do you think for a minute HE will pay this debt?? Ha!  He does NOT have credit cards (I often wonder why)? Refuses to get one, why? But it’s okay to use hers??

I can relate to this experience, because it happened to me. One of the hallmarks of this disorder is lack of responsibility. Sociopaths do not believe in paying bills, particularly bills that they’ve convinced someone else to incur.

There was a time when my ex-husband, James Montgomery, had his own American Express card, but Amex cancelled the card and sued him for not paying his bills at least three years before I met him. After that, Montgomery learned it was much better to sweet talk women into providing him with access to their credit than to try to get his own card. So, based on what Montgomery did to me and several other women, here are observations I can make:

1. Sociopaths specifically go after people with money and/or credit. The first step, of course, is to pick the right target. If sociopaths are looking for a sugar daddy or sugar momma, they first need to make sure sugar is available.

Now, this doesn’t mean the target must have millions in accessible cash, although I do know of one case in which that was a requirement. A sociopath will target someone who has:

  • a job
  • access to credit
  • a home, which can be tapped for a home equity loan
  • retirement savings
  • family members with money

My ex-husband actually ran credit reports on women he met. If sociopaths have access to credit reports, they won’t be deterred by the mere fact that pulling a credit report without the subject’s permission is illegal.

2. Sociopaths initially create an impression of substance, success and financial responsibility. When I first met my ex, he did not tell me that he was flat broke. He talked about his business successes of the past—apparently with at least some truth—and his big plans for the future.

He exuded absolute confidence in his ability to make his dreams come true, and I believed him. I thought I was becoming involved with a “mover and shaker,” a captain of industry, a master of the universe. I didn’t know he was a con artist.

3.  Sociopaths quickly create bonds of trust with the target. That’s where the word “con” comes from—the sociopaths are running a con game, or confidence game, establishing confidence in the target. This can be done several ways, depending on the nature of the relationship.

Sweetheart scams are probably the easiest. The sociopath love bombs the target, with flowery language, gifts and constant attention. When the target falls for it, he or she feels both love and trust—how could you not trust someone that you love? If the two people are intimate, chemical changes in the brain make the trust bond grow even stronger. (See last week’s article, Getting over that amazing ‘chemistry.’)

Sometimes sociopaths borrow trust through association. For example, they may join a religious community, and present themselves as a solid member of the group, or even a spiritual leader. Thousands of wannabes fraudulently claim to be military heroes, and trade off the high esteem with which most people hold those who serve in the military. My ex-husband claimed that he served 35 years in the military, which made him seem honorable. He never served a day.

4. Sociopaths promise to pay, and sometimes they actually do pay, at least in the beginning. My ex-husband invited me to go with him to Australia, and then asked me to put the charges on my credit card, assuring me that he’d pay off the charges as soon as the bills came in. Some con artists pay off initial small loans, or small credit card charges, to make the targets believe they are trustworthy.

Sociopaths do not hint that they won’t pay the expenses that they convince the target to incur. They continue making promises to pay as long as targets still have money or credit available to bleed.

If sociopaths perceive that there is nothing left to take, at that point they may quit the charade and say, “F*** you, the debts are in your name, you deal with them.” Of course, by that point, the sociopaths already have their next targets lined up.

5. Sociopaths create a crisis, and need action right away. They will claim that they must answer immediately, they have to act now or the opportunity will be lost, they’re up against a deadline. Sociopaths do not want their targets to have a chance to think about whether the request makes any sense.

6. Sociopaths use the targets’ own good natures against them. If targets are generous, sociopaths will use the pity play to prey on their generosity. If targets are responsible, the sociopaths will get them to clean up the messes that they create. If targets are skilled in business, the sociopaths will enlist them to join the entrepreneurial dream, be members of the team, until they are carrying the full financial burden.

Whatever qualities and vulnerabilities target have, the sociopaths find ways to exploit them.

7. Sociopaths badger the targets into giving them what they want. My ex-husband did not come out and ask me to give him a credit card until long after we were married. Even then, I resisted for months.

But he wore me down. He said he was an entrepreneur, entrepreneurs always have terrible credit, and if I helped him, I would be helping our success. He pointed out that he needed a credit card when he travelled—conveniently neglecting to mention that his trips included seeing other women.

He explained. He nudged. He pleaded. Eventually, I just caved and made him an authorized user on one of my credit cards. When the card arrived in the mail, Montgomery acted like he received a windfall of cash. It was maxed out within a few months.

8. Sociopaths dig the targets into such deep holes that the only possible escape is through the sociopaths. Before long, my once-pristine credit was shot. I was carrying more debt than I ever had in my life. My only hope was that Montgomery would succeed with his plans, as he continued to assure me he would.

So every time Montgomery told me that he “needed” something, or “had to” travel somewhere, I approved the charges, hoping desperately that it would be the final step that would start to turn everything around. But that never happened.

9. Sociopaths know the rules. One day, as I was ranting about the oppressive credit card balances, I yelled that my husband had occurred the debts, and he had to pay them. Montgomery shockingly informed me that, since we were married, his debts were my debts. He was right.

Montgomery was also well aware of the fact that since all the credit cards were in my name, and I gave him permission to use them, I was responsible for his charges. Even when the judge in my divorce determined that my ex-husband had defrauded me, and Montgomery was responsible for the debts, the credit card companies didn’t care. They came after me.

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My ex spath boy friend was on my cell phone plan because supposedly he hadn’t established his credit in our state as he was from another state.

He had a pay as you go plan, but one day I dropped my phone and lost the battery under my refrigerator. He came over at his offer to retrieve my battery. In passing he mentioned that he had a XXX brand phone like mine and I could use it if I wanted until I got a new battery. It turned out that his previous girlfriend had him on her cell phone plan.

I suggested that he go on my plan. All I had to do was add another line. No big deal. The problem was with our combined minutes we had to get more minutes so it cost me twice as much as what I was paying before. Of course he never paid me for any of it. I am one of those generous people who just assume someone is going to at least offer to pay their share.

He also stuck me for some expensive concert tickets that I had obtained for 4 people. We broke up, and then got back together. I gave a couple of the tickets to his friends girlfriend to take her new boyfriend to. I kept my own ticket. You think I ever got paid for any of those? NOOOOOOOOO

The thing that I couldn’t understand was the fact that he wasn’t the least bit embarrassed to let me pay for things. He did buy me some gifts at Christmas a year ago, but that is it.

I can certainly understand why they would want our credit cards. Since we were not married I had control of the cell phone that was in my name.

There was one remark he made to me over the phone once though. I have an autistic daughter who lives in a group home but comes home often on weekends. She is an adult. He told me that he knew I would never do this because I would never leave my daughter, but wouldn’t it be fun to sell my house and buy an RV, travel across the country. He did mention that he would work a little here and there. I was just looking at it like a fantasy like yes lets go to Hawaii or the Bahamas….so I laughed it off. I did tell him though that how did I know he would’t drop me off somewhere in the middle of nowhere and leave me.

Of course he reminded me that I wouldn’t do it because I would never leave me daughter. He was right about that.



This is a good article Donna. In my case all the spath needed was an actual street address (mine) and soon he was bombarded with credit card applications via the mail. And him having the same address as mine and because of my trusting nature he soon had credit cards in his name, little did I know I was the co-signer on the credit card, try explaining this to a credit card company when they come after me for his debt’s. He combed through all my information, ssc # etc. There is no telling what await’s me in the future. I was poor with good credit when he met me – now I am just poor.


Very good article, this happened to me as well, at first I didn’t get what his intent was (among many other things), Jimmy went bankrupt a few years before I met him, should of questioned that then but never did…a quick relationship with marriage within 5 months, didn’t see it coming not even when we got married he didn’t put a cent into the financial part of the wedding- it was at my moms expense, his moms expense and my m/c expense…but not one cent did he pay. He was not working at the time (no surprise).
Shortly after, my m/c was maxed out due to his wanting things and promised to pay back but never did fully. Then he convinced me to get a VISA, for the longest time I said ‘no’ but just like the article above, he wore me down, within a few months it also was maxed out- and then he denied he owed anything- (conning/stealing – when I was unable to work due to a back injury he DEMANDED me to give him the credit card, I had no income, he did pay some but he took money out from it-he had the code) ..then statement never showed up, which was his doing, and when I called to get copy, seen withdrawals and he denied it (he went in a rage). that ‘it was in my name’ and ‘I couldn’t prove he caused my debts to sore’, so I had to get loan ($20,000 which turned out to be more than $32,000 but around $4000.00 was my own dept from credit card before I met him).
He kept on denying it and then gave me ~$200/month (but of course was short lived) from the $5,500 + he got from working (when he actually worked which wasn’t much). This was to keep that control and hidden agenda. He wanted to stick around because he was going after my moms house (he thought I would get my moms house after she dies-but she is alive and well and I am hoping she will live a long time) as he made very clear he was after this home during our entire marriage…it is hideous to even think that he is so monstrous to marry me for what I might potentially have and to try and destroy me.
BUT I am so thankful that I am no longer in this abusive marriage from his predation, I am not yet divorced as I have extreme financial difficulty right now but am looking forward to the near future that I will no longer be legally be married to this psychopath. It has been a long road of healing, I have accepted that I have been preyed upon by an abusive psychopath, the emotional trauma and all different kinds of abuse have taken its toll but I did survive it, I also accept that I will never see the money that he conned me out of but oh well, nothing can be done about it, just have to keep on!!!!

lesson learned


This is a very interesting and rather timely article.

My exPOS didn’t have anything to take from me. He knew that, however, the love bomb I caught him lying to me about, was a credit consultant and made a lot of money. Hmmmm…..when he told me he could never do a “fat chick” (newest love bomb was overweight), it was my big enlightenment moment…….I felt sorry for her. He could have cared less what the woman looked like, his needs had changed.

He was in debt. It also didn’t matter that she was in love with someone else. He wanted to nail her……….

Hmmmm………..must have been because he was and is so heavily in debt that it doesn’t matter what his “physical” preferences were in a woman…he didn’t need a trophy wife, he didn’t need a sexy hot mama, he needed one with money.

I’m sure new gf has something to offer in the way of money.

The man has blown all his credit cards. Last I heard, he was looking to buy a new bedroom set and his daughter a new car.

Won’t come from him.

But from the next victim that he has now.

I wish there was some way to warn her. She’s about to lose her shirt.

Yep, they love credit cards. Especially when they’re in debt….and even more so when it belongs to someone else 🙂



awesome article. I wish there was someway I could forward this to my spath sister who is married to the trojan horse. She would see herself lclearly mirrored in your words. She had pristine credit, $100,000 saved and no debt. The cop she married had no credit, unpaid debt and owned one pair of pants. Can we say meth addict/rapist/pig? Yes we can. He took her credit, went to lawschool (for nothing) and moved on to work for homeland security (isn’t THAT special?) but they are further in debt than ever.
But I really don’t want a woman who believes evil is “ok, because everyone is doing it” on this website. Not even my own sister, whose life is in danger because he has life insurance (1 million) on her. she is a horrible lying spath but also a victim and my sister. It hurts.

Thanks for letting me barf all over here.

If I may continue….
my spath borrowed $5000 from me with a pity ploy, “I need to fly, I need my own aircraft, it is my dream, if I can’t have it, I will slowly die, yada yada puke”
When he wouldn’t pay it back I left him. I was 20 years old. He located me and begged me for a reason why I left him. I told him, “because you don’t pay what you owe” He said, ‘you mean, if I pay you back you will come back to me?” I said, “yes”. Before 24 hours was up, this poverty stricken man who couldn’t pay his rent, had 5 grand at my door. Did 20-year old stupid girl wonder wtf? NO. 20-year old stupid girl was “grateful” (I wish I could do the right voice for that word in type. try high pitched, sarcastic) Anyway, He knew that I had 95,000 more to scam so he paid back the 5 grand and proceeded to slowly drain me of the rest as well as leaving me in credit card debt hell. NEVER REVEAL WHAT YOU ARE WORTH TO ANYONE.


I wrote a post and then lost it in the process of editing. In case it actually gets posted and doesn’t make sense I am writing another version.

First let me say to Donna, I read your story by clicking on the name of your ex and was absolutely blown away by what you went through.
Thank you so much for using your experience to help us.

This comment is regarding my ex husband. Even though I thought I had a breakthrough yesterday coming to the conclusion he was a Sociopath, I am not so sure now. I know he was a liar and had no empathy, but for now I think he was a Narcissist. The jury is still out. May I ask a question that is off the subject but important to me. If my H was a spath it means he never loved me but it was not particularly personal. What he seems to have done instead was grow to HATE ME. I mean REALLY REALLY HATE ME. Do spaths have the ability to hate? I know they don’t love, and even if they kill us or ruin our lives to them it is nothing personal. Do I have that right?

My husbands specialty was gaslighting. Because I was the responsible “adult” in the family. I know that now, not so sure I acted or knew it early in the marriage, he was able to blame me for the credit card debt. When we first got a computer and he discovered EBAY I had him write a check for his purchases for the month which totaled about 250.00. I told him that the one credit card could be used for this kind of purchase but the entire balance had to be paid off in full.

That lasted about a month. After that he did one of two things, he knew I would continue to write the checks and he could continue to ignore how much he was spending, or he would slip off to the post office and pay for his purchases by postal money order.

I have mentioned on others posts that he was a hoarder. He was also a compulsive spender. He would have hobbies in which he was paying on layaway all over town in which he would do what he called “make his rounds” on Saturdays. He thought it was all right because he paid cash. He would ask me to buy him things for his birthday or other holiday using my credit card. This would be something expensive from Sears Tool Department. Even though the payments were coming from his income, he figured if I was the one to sign the credit card he could put it out of his mind and I would still be blamed for our rising credit card debt. After all he paid cash for everything.

I would always fall short in paying the bills so would have to charge things like utilities and sometimes even groceries but the credit cards were my fault. He had me believing it. Why? Because he would be angry with me if I told him. I didn’t discuss the credit card debt with him in the early years of our marriage. I blamed myself.

During the divorce we were ordered to each pay half of the pre-separation debt. He was giving two cards and I was given one big one. I paid off mine with money from my parents as it was mostly used for my lawyer. I got a letter from the credit card company saying that I had paid x amount of money and there was a 0.00 balance. My ex is still paying for his monthly with minimum payments.

I have used mine for emergencies like plumbing problems and broken appliances. Those were costly enough that I ran up a balance. Even though I made the payments on time with more than the minimum amoount my interest is still 25 percent. It started out as about 34 percent. I finally called them and asked them if they could lower my interest rate. They would not.

The credit bureau shows that I am responsible for his debt. Surprise! I thought I had my name removed. The only thing that did was make it so I couldn’t use the cards. I am still responsible for that debt. He doesn’t know that. I am not going to tell him because the only way to get my name off of the cards is for him to request that to happen. As long as he is making the payments there is nothing I can do. I will just have to pay off my card and try not to run up a balance again.



This is why its called “sexually transmitted debt”.
I also got conned, but by my spath D. she pulled the “poor me, “sob stories, croc tears,everyone is to blame but me’ ploy. I bale d her out for almost 30 years. No longer, Im immune to her now, THANK GOD!I must have given her well over $10,000 over the last 5 or six years, not to speak of the phone bills,i paid,back rent I paid, store cards I bought her so she could buy food, the home delivery meals service that I organised for her fortnightly–,bedding, lamps, fans, heaters, clothes for her and the kids.I didnt begrudge it,-well not much, but it was all accepted as her due.I had the cash, she needed it, I was sucker bait, what was the problem?They feel so ENTITLED to the best of everything, dont they? But dont always feel the need to actually work for it!
I once met her, paid off one of her credit cards, we cut it up together. I went home feeling so pleased I could help her. next week, I got a telegram for her,{I was still getting her mail, as shed been living with us for around six months} It was a message from her bank to come pick up her new credit card, which shed ordered the same day we cut up her old one!!
Nothing should surprise us about these people they are expert con artists!
Love, mama Gem.XX


STD – Sexually Transmitted Debt

LOL That is a good one! 🙂


Wow! What an eye-opener. Ex wasn’t overtly an irresponsible person (except that he never took responsibility for his actions). But when I look at that list, I can definitely see that pattern with money. He never “scammed” me (because I wasn’t working yet when he met me, so there was nothing to scam!) but he did scam his mother of a huge sum and felt justified because he thought her money was rightly his.

Fast forward 20 years, and now he is being such a moron with property settlement. Creating drama, insisting on an immediate response, badgering, digging a hole that only they can get you out of, knowing the rules, not paying but not telling you upfront, etc.

In spite of having a great attorney and achieving a good result, I am still in huge trouble because of his sneakiness. You can’t win with them. I thought it was over once we signed, but now it is clear it’s not. It may take a while and a willingness to just cut the loss and not even bother about it, to be free. I must admit that my DV social worker warned me before I left him that abusers are going to screw the victims where money is concerned. I found it hard to believe because he presented as such a morally upright person and a good provider for the kids. He even said to me yesterday, “I will always provide for the kids, you know I am a generous person” All this while hardly paying the right amount.

Point #2 – creating an impression of substance. That’s what he has done all his life. We were never rich, but people were convinced we were. In fact the kids wondered why we never bought them anything and they always had to do without. Yet we had mansions and travelled a lot. I never really understood it until his brother said to me that he learnt something from their dad – how to give the impression of being rich even if you aren’t. That’s where he got it from! And that’s why he is so livid/devastated now, because I have destroyed his empire by taking half of it.

Now I don’t have a credit card though (never applied for one before, so don’t even know how to do it!), that means I am safe from a spath!


Oh Yes! Yet another example of extortion. The mother of my daughter while she was getting the free ‘help’ from the Justice for Children organization to get our daughtrer back from me after she got herself another husband and was structured better (in society’s eyes to accomodate our daughter) was out committing credit card fraud to the tune of three major felonies and a ten year probation order to pay back $30,000.

Of course Justice for Children has its own problems as it reject the credibility of Parental Alienation and is sexist in its intrusions into the family court rooms. and of course she falsely accused me, something which Justice for Children jumps onto, like the ‘witch hunters’ they are.

I woujld say this credit card matter is a key ingredient to look for to identify sociopaths, along with criminal charges.


WOW!!! This article is the proof my family needed. My nephew was in a 11 month realtionship which ended in his death September 2010. When they met he had 1 creidt card with a small balance. When he died we found 15 credit cards most of them maxed out and no payments made on them for about 4 months. When we went to clean out his condo we found months of unopened bills on top of China cabinets, and in bags in the closet. Rejection letters from jewerly stores and more places she tried to appy for credit. His 401K money was gone. Cash advances on his cards. He must have thougth she was paying the them or he had no idea there was that many. This was not his nature to be in debt. He had purchased her a cell phone on a contract in his name because she said she was being harrassed by her ex husband. They bougth all new furniture 5 months before his death, she said it was hers and in her name and she was paying for it…we called furniture store it was in my nephews name and not one payment ever was made. They were trying to contact him so they could come pick it all back up for non payment, she was trying to get it all moved out before then, but we were able to get the store to pick it up before she was able to have it moved. We confornted her and she lied to our face and never would admit the truth. She was so quick with the lies. She demanded us out of the condo. This woman (33) told us she was in a abusive realtionship and was in the middle of a divorce. She had lost her house and her credit was awful of course she said it was her husbands fault. He was in a wheelchair from a car accident. She said her divorce was final in November 2009. Truth is there was never a divorce. She was still married to her wheelchair bond husband. She moved into my nephews home after the 2nd date, he felt sorry for her she said she had no where to go. That was in October by Febuary 2010 she made my nephew annouce at lunch they were engaged. He did not want to make the annoucement that day becasue we just had left the nursing home visiting his grandmother that was very ill. She passed away the next day. It seemed like this woman always had to be the center of attention even in the mist of someone elses pain or happiness. She claimed every month she was pregnant and never was….she calimed to have ovarian cancer she called my nephew while he was in the hospital with kidney stones and told him the doctor called and she had cancer. He was so upset. His grandmother died of the same cancer and he knew it eas usually terminal. Evil woman that played mind games. She never would tell us what they were going to do about her cancer she finally todl us a few weeks later the docotr made a mistake she really did not have ovarian cancer. My nephew died September 6, 2010 at the age of 35. The one thing he wanted was to love someone and to be loved and have a family of his own one day. That will never happen now. My sister will never have a granchild. And now they are faced with cleaning up the mess this evil woman left behind. She was hooked on pain medication and was always at the emergancy room to get more. She got him to taking them too, a family member confronted her if he was taking pain pills she said Yes he had a better personality when he took them. He was a quite laid back man that wrote poetry and even had a few published. She kept him from doing that once they meet.
One month after my nephews death she went back to her husband…the one that abused her the one that was suppose to divorvced from. All lies. Me and my family could not understand how she could do the things she done and not feel any pain or remorse. Well I kept searching on the intrenet and I came across this site. And BAM there she is ….she has the signs os being a sociopath now we can sorta understand her crazy mind. Thank you for letting me vent.


Let’s see here. I meet my xspath 9 years ago and during that 9 years this is what happended: When I met him I was living comfortably with my 2 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment. Within in a few months he convinced me into moving into a bigger apartment (nicer apartment). We lived there for about, let me see, no more than a year 1/2. During that time he convinced me to marry him (which me pushed and pushed to do it quickly) and to build a house, using my credit of course. It wasn’t like he had any credit. He could barely keep a job. Once we moved into the house, this is when I started catching on to some of his “sociopathic” behaviors. I knew nothing about sociopaths but I could tell he was a different breed. This is when I bagan laying more reponsibilities on him like finding a job and sticking to it. When we first met he told me he had his own magazine at one time however it feel apart due to his partner backing out. He even showed me a copy of the first copy that was “sopposed” to be published, but it never happended. I remember when he told me about the magazine, I thought how cool that it was and that he was just going through a hard time trying to get back on his feet (part of the plan).

So now we’re in the house, bigger, nicer than the apartment. We were married, and started applying for more credit cards. Four months into this, he leaves. I remember his excuse was that I didn’t show him enough affection and he shouldn’t have to beg his wife, for love & affection. What he really meant was, I didn’t stop and give him sex everytime he asks for it, which was all the time, and if I didn’t feel like having sex, a blowjob would take care of it.

He was gone roughly about 2-3 months. The entire time he was gone he harrassed me by phone calls, and texting. A part of me was releaved when he wasn’t present, since I didn’t have to live with the constant badgering of getting his needs meet. When he returned, I need to be honest and say I probably gave in due to him telling me that I would never find anyone like him. Someone that loves me like he does, that I will end up regretting it for the rest of my life. His manipulating games had begun to sink into my soul and I was beginning to believe everything he told me. This would be the beginning of him coming in, and out of my life, and my kids lives several more times.

So he returns, he convinces me to have a baby. I didn’t want a baby but he convinced me “again”, it would be good for us. We had a baby girl. Obviously having another child in the home meant more space was needed so, it would only make sense that we build yet another, bigger, nicer home. This home was way, way over my budget, however he convinced a local builder to buy on contract, with of course using my credit. So we moved out of the smaller home, and moved into the bigger home within a few months. During this time more credit card applications came in the mail. Apparently he thought it was okay to apply for these cards while I was sleeping at night. When I would recieve the cards in the mail I would ask him about it knowing it was all wrong and his response would be, I did it in order to have a backup plan if needed. I did fail to mention that my spath did begin working at a local car dealer about 7 months prior, and he was making decent money however I cannot begin to tell you how many times he walked out of the dealership threatening to quick because he wasn’t receiving the treatment he deserved.

He leaves again when our daughter was about 21 months. Right before he left he told me we should look into buying a rental property. It would be a good source of income. I did it like a freak’n idiot. Oh yeah, I had also put him on my cell phone plan. He couldn’t get service on his own. So now I’m left with the “bigger, nicer” home, a rental property, thousands of dollars in credit card debt, a cell phone bill which was like $600.00, and or course, a baby!

I couldn’t afford the house so I had to move into the rental property but couldn’t right away due to the renters my spath had put in the house, wouldn’t get out, not to mention they hadn’t paid rent for like 4 months. Well that may not be completely true. Apparently they gave my spath 3 months rent in advance, however I didn’t see any of it. Once I got into the house, I was severly behind and had no flipp’n clue what I was going to do.

Here is where it gets even creepier. Me and my kids have been living in the rental property since January “09” yet to get back on track financially. I have allowed my spath to come back 2 more times, with each time him leaving he would get into realationships with women, that I knew of course. He actually had one of the individuals names tatooed on his leg, while still married to me. I found out that one of the times he came back home to me that he screwed “the tatooed chick out of some money. I was like, oh really!!

Each time I allowed my spath to return home I cut myself more and more at the knees. It took me forever to realize that each time he returned it was due to not having any money, or not living the lifestyle her perferred. He knew that I lived a certain way, no matter my financial issues.

Looking back on all of this is such a horrid reminder of how much I didn’t feel I deserved anything. I thought each time he returned he was truly sorry, and wanted to make things right. I knew something wasn’t right to act the way he did. It just wasn’t normal. Little did I know I had so much to learn, and will continut to learn. How could I relate to this bahavior? I couldn’t! It wasn’t possible.

It has now been about 6 months since he left last. I do feel stronger than I ever have only because I took the advice of great friends, and started going to therapy. I also need to say these very friends had plenty a reason of giving up on me, but didn’t. They caught on to my xspath’s bs way before I did. I just refused to except it, or believe it, which cause so much more pain and grief.

Altough I continue to work on my healing and I do not obsess on him as much as I used to, I know I have much further to go. The one little piece of information which seems to really help me on a daily basis is knowing & believing this…Nothing is wrong with me, and I CANNOT CHANGE HIM. He is who he is and he will continue to be who he is, period!


Thank you, Donna, for this article. It also describes to the “T” what happened to me. I had never been late on a bill in my life, bounced a check, & had an excellent credit history. The spathhole completely destroyed all that. I worked 3 jobs after the divorce to pay off my half of the debt incurred, as spelled out in my divorce settlement. To this day, he has not paid anything, & guess who gets all the collection agency calls? I don’t know if I’ll ever recover my credit standing.


I had a spath that conned me and multiple investors to finance a film production in Palmdale CA (50 miles north of L.A.) in the late 90’s. I was shocked by the number of individuals he could con with his dog and pony show. Me and these people used cash advances on credit cards to “finance” this film he claimed he was producing (and also directing!). Then he’d use this money for his personal living expenses. If you are wondering how he could actually finance a movie for a few hundred thousand dollars the answer is: digital. At the time Hollywood was poo-pooing digital technology. Instead of having expensive film costs the digital equipment was a fraction of that cost. He also borrowed Sony cameras being introduced at that time- that lowered the budget to practically zip. The investors weren’t allowed to visit the set without permission- just in case someone was savvy enough to realize the shell game. Whoa, I was stupid enough give this guy cash advances on credit cards (and they were all in amounts of 1,000. or 1,200.)! But I never received a return on my investment- as did any of the other investors, but accumulated 20K in debts. That was nearly 20 years ago and I still have never fully recovered from that situation.


And they really love credit cards”My ex had five of them, and after he messed up big time with almost 25k accumulated in debts wanted me to help him pay. By that time my eyes were already wide open about his conning moves and I refused to help him. He had to declare bankruptcy. I don’t think he learned his lesson, he will do it again”They like to live beyond their means.


My ex-sp bf had credit cards and was trying to pay them off. He just got out of prison (theft/swindle) for 7 years. He talked his ex-mother in law to purchase a foreclosure that he worked on and has it looking really charming. He’s paying her for the house.

He blew his paycheck on blackjack table and asked me to cover for him. I did. He had a way to make me feel sorry for him. He didn’t want the ex mother in law to find out about that “mistake” he made.

After hernia surgery 3 weeks later he missed some days of work. He asked me for $1700 so he wouldn’t lose everything he worked for. At that time I said, “what if I said no?” And he acted surprised and said he didn’t see THAT coming. I did again.

We would check out at a lumber yard (getting things for his home improvements) and he would say, “honey, you got your credit card?” That time I was mad….he wrote me a check and tossed it at me while I was sitting on the sofa. I didn’t take the check (stupid, stupid, stupid!)

He always wanted to be doing things…going out to eat, we took little road trips. He always wanted to be making his house better. Often he would look at things in a store and just look down and stare at the floor. I wondered if it was some strange way to make me feel sorry for him and cover for it. He paid most times we went out to eat.

I had my house up for sale and we found this home on the lake that was in short sale. I was going to buy it. He was going to sell his house and we were going to live together. He told me he was worried about that because what if I decided I didn’t want him anymore and there he was with nothing again. Well, thank the Lord that the house fell through and that’s when I started to think things weren’t right and got lots of anxiety.

He had dreams of opening and running a business. He drove me to a place that was shut down that he wanted to buy, fix and run. He told me “honey I know I can make it work and be very successful.” And he also told me, “you should buy me a business honey. I won’t let us lose. I’ll never let anything happen to you – relax, don’t worry!”

The last email I sent him yesterday I said no more emails. Send me what you owe me. He sent one again this morning and said he will send a cashiers check when he has the money. Last week he told me he had a “chunk” of it…so I said send me the chunck. Then he told me he actually put that money into a contract for deed for the house so they don’t try to pull it out from under him. Surprisingly, he doesn’t have the money.

He sent an email this morning but I didn’t open it. I can’t read anymore from him- can’t let him get more into my head than he’s already done. I’m suffering from letting go of what I “thought” it was, but I am determined to get past this whole nightmare and thank God that I didn’t let it go any further.



Thanks Donna. This is soooooooooo true. I’m a widow. Thought I had my head screwed on but not where he was concerned. He ran up debt, got to have this NOW. Gotta have car insurance, clothes for work, clothes for going out, new phone, SKY (I rarely watch tv) car repairs ”“ you name it he had to have it. And like a fool I footed the bill, he was always going to pay me back ”“ but it never materialised. When he left he paid his hotel bill and drew out money on MY card. I trusted him and he betrayed that trust. What a [email protected]
He’s been insuring cars in my address details since he left. I am living hand to mouth and all because of him. I was comfortably off before I met him ”“ no debt. What a TOSS&R.
ps he couldn’t get credit cos he had debts. What a plonka I’ve been.

Spoke to his ex, he conned £100k out of her and she’s still paying off debts.


To: True-to-Self; I have a very strong gut feeling we have encountered the same sociopath.I was involved with a sociopath from 2003 to 2009, he definitely dropped the love bomb. I had excellant credit and never lived out of my means. He destroyed my credit, my good name, and left when I would not allow him to borrow on my home equity. I was suddenly forgotten after ardent pledges of undying love.
When I read your comment to the article Sociopaths and Credit Cards I feel certain you and I were taken by the same sociopath.
I was also “stiffed” for expensive concert tickets; he decided he did not want to attend the concert at the last minute.
My sociopath also wanted to travel the country in an RV, of course purchased with the equity in my home. My sociopath also wanted a cell phone plan in my name only. And, my sociopath also placed his purchases on my credit card and paid for them early in the relationship, but eventually promised payment and never delivered (pretended hardships). He is employed with a very large nationally known mortgage lender, and HE HAS EASY ACCESS TO ANYONE’S CREDIT REPORTS. In hindsight, I am certain this is exactly why I was targeted. I have a very strong gut feeling we have encountered the same sociopath.


I have a reverse sort of issue.
I seem to have been the only person he dated who had a home with equity and no other long term debt. I was a self employed single mom. I was self employed, had paid cash for my new car, totally paid off all bills as they arrived, and always paid extra principal with my monthly mortgage payment. He said that everyone else who he had dated was a struggling working girl who rented an apartment, struggled with finances, and had no children. (I later discovered that he had been seeing those others throughout the time we dated, lived together, got married and even when we went on our honeymoon!)

Three years after first meeting, we purchased a home together. At the same time, all of my income went into a “joint” account that he had set up for us. Last year, after attempting to activate a new credit card. I was told that he, not I, needed to activate the card because I was merely a signer on his account, not an owner of the “joint” account!

Since our marriage 15 years ago, I must ask him for any spending cash. Then I will be handed maybe $40.00 until I ask for more. I’ve come to realize that he can use the credit card bills to track where I have been.

For years, I have not been allowed to see an itemized cell phone bill with a calling log because the account is in his name…and he controls everything. All account information is accessible via an email account using his password. I’ve recently learned that a feature is available to track a cell phone’s whereabouts. Perhaps he’s tracking my whereabouts with my cell phone. He likely is still messing with other women and wants to keep all his calls a secret from me too.

When I speak on the house phone, he will sometimes refer to things that I spoke to friends about. My NPD also has all of our computers run on a home network that he administers. I’ve seen copies of my emails and documents on his computer (maybe s/b his CON-puter).
I’m sure this posting will be available for him to view too, but I no longer care about that.

He actually earns a good living, but he cons others into giving him what he wants and can be a real, intimidating bully. He has thrown away or destroyed many of my things. Occasionally my things will be replaced with similar items that he has purchased and now owns. Little by little, he has reduced my belongings. He periodically finds and then hides small treasures that I’ve kept for years because they hold pleasant memories for me. I’ve discovered many of these items tucked away from me like his personal souvenirs. (Why would anyone besides me want to have my childhood pet’s dog tag? To me, taking that seems very sad, sick, and totally uncaring.)

My NPD has actually purchased some expensive art equipment for me to use. However, nearly all of it was purchased in his company’s name. So, he owns (controls) nearly everything…except my thoughts.

Years ago, I contemplated a divorce and he informed me that I did not own any part of our house because there was no paper trail to show that my check had been used to pay off my half of the mortgage…so I was in default! At the time of purchase, my home had not yet sold. His (one person) company advanced the funds for purchase and secured the funds with a mortgage lien that was recorded against the property. The later receipt of my equity check did not get recorded against the mortgage. So he informed me that my $100k equity was deemed to be his to do with as he pleased, like maybe throw a huge party! (He had also removed and destroyed a file that had held all of the closing paperwork for the sale of my house.)

Sooo…the credit card issue can go both ways…to destroy another’s credit or to withhold credit (take good credit away for more control over someone).

By the way, I tend to use credit cards frugally to purchase gifts for others, buy my art supplies, and also for groceries (since I have very little cash). I rarely buy myself new clothing and own a car that is now over 17 years old.


IMconfused. He sounds like a real control freak. You had EVERYTHING and now you have NOTHING? He ‘gives’ you money like a child having pocket money! He ‘bought’ you art materials, although HE didn’t really buy them.

This has CONTROL written all over it.

So many flags going up here.

I have to ask the question……Why are you still with him?

Thanks Donna for the informative article.
You are so right on the mark. I tried to explain to someone when I was going through the withdrawal stage and the word I used was “addiction”. I was addicted. I went through all those processes so when it was over I was left with a huge hole in my life. However my psychologist told me that if he came back he would fill the hole, but fill it with more SHIT. Do I really want that in my life? Knowing what I know now, I dont!
Education is our best defence. I really believe there should be a data base for these people. They are so destructive and move one one person to another leaving behind them massed confusion. I have taken it upon myself to warn people. There is a resurgance of information about them out there and for that I am so thankful. They mess with your head leaving behind years of healing, yet they can see no harm in what they have done. Guess thats cos they dont have a conscience. Their lies are horrendous. I was told this by him.
” I tell you a lie you dont believe me, I tell you the truth you dont believe me” . That is a sociopath/psychopath talking.

Sorry I may have posted this in the wrong section. I meant to post it on the article about chemistry. However, interesting about finances. I was careful with my creditcard. I did let him use it once but he never reimbursed me, so when he left my daughter made him leave me the refrigerator. He used my car and my gasoline. There were no questions asked as he would constantly tell me that we were a great team. I dont think so. Well maybe we were, but he was in charge. The creep.


I’m very worried about your situation. Don’t have much time to post but OMG GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!! Start getting things and returning them to the store, get cash on hand, get a lawyer, do SOMETHING. It is obvious that he targeted you because you had everything he wanted: self control. Now he has taken that away. NO MORE. EVERY MOMENT YOU ARE THERE YOU LOSE MORE. Your paychecks are HIS. Get a lawyer. you are nothing but a slave.


This is my first post – I have been reading and reading for a
long time – trying to figure all this out. Call it denial – but after this post I see things much more clearer. I divorced my ex 7 years ago after a 25 yr. relationship. Right from the beginning I knew there was something not right about him – but we all know how persistent they are. When I met him he had nothing but a bag of clothes to his name. I had a good job and was very self sufficient. About a month after we met – my only living parent died – he came on even stronger after my dad dying.

It’s funny now – but after a few events happening with him – I used to say to his face he was a con man. My gut told me something wasn’t right from the beginning but I thought I could change him. When we got married 4 years after meeting (long story how we ended up marrying after all the crap he put me through) we bought a house with my inheritance. After a credit check on him from the bank (which I worked for) it came to light he had several outstanding cheques written by him that bounced. Stupid me paid these bills to allow us to get this mortgage.

In all the years we were together I handled all the finances – as I knew he wasn’t responsible enough. As the years went on I had established our credit and was able to obtain credit cards in his name. As I quit my job to be a sahm we obtained these as him as the major cardholder. Money to him was no worry – he would have spent and spent if I didn’t have control over it. I would get them paid off – tell him not to use them – the bill would come and the argument would be on again as he had used it. It baffles me how he would think I wouldn’t notice this. He was always wanting to buy major items on credit – but it was always me who wouldn’t allow this. Right from the beginning of our relationship I never fully trusted him – he would have done to me as so many on here have had done to them – if I hadn’t been so controlling over finances (thank god I was).

A month after we separated I found out that he had a secret credit card and line of credit up to the tune of $20,000 – taken out the month he met ow. He met her Mar. 15th and moved in with her Apr. l. She owned her own place – had been married to a drug addict- divorced him and raised her two sons. He knew what he was doing – he was doing the same thing to her as he did to me. Hopefully it won’t take her 25 yrs. to figure him out.

On top of everything else I have read on here and what my ex did to me over the past 25 yrs. the light came on with this post. The devastation of deceit and lies is a process I am still processing – but with everything I read on here it validates me – I’m not crazy – I just gave my heart to a an evil person.


@skylar – OMG my 1st husband / spath was a cop, got advanced degrees, and went on to work for homeland security – he is now on his 4th wife. What are the odds? Feel free to contact me off board.


The odds are high that every single person who works for homeland security is a spath. My exP is nothing but a drug dealer child molester, and a closet bisexual who killed a guy after he convinced him to sign over a helicopter on a secret payment plan and now flies around without a license. Even does commercialhelicopter work. AND YET he had no problem convincing several homeland security dudes to stage a fake raid complete with warrant in front of stooge friend Harry, just to convince me that I should sign over the business into his name.
Further he had all the cops including the sherrif chasing me around the small town. He looks like a homeless dude with rotting teeth, but he can connive ANYONE, especially someone who is already rotten to begin with.
It is a well known FACT that spaths crave authority, but they want to manipulate and cheat with it. Normal people may seek positions of authority in order to serve, but spaths just want power. They show themselves.


sky – ‘drug dealer child molesting bisexual’.

sky ?


drug dealer = bad
child molesting = bad
bisexual = bad?????


on the down low=bad
predatory= bad

but bisexual=bad????



I wanna jump in an play. But, I got redirected by something Donna posted.

pulling a credit report without the subject’s permission is illegal.

I used to be a check authorizer for a large well-known department store chain.

My job was to either approve or deny the personal checks of shoppers.

I was told to run a credit check on people writing a large dollar amount check.

Something did not feel right about this.

I knew nothing about credit at the time. I knew little about writing checks. Yet, something seemed invasive about this.

So I never ran a credit check on anyone. I was “called on carpet” cause I wouldn’t run credit checks.

Of course I was also “called on carpet” because I wouldn’t harrass the little-old-lady who bounced a check. She called in to make payment arrangements. I was easy with her. The entire office ganged up on me. I was told I was supposed to “make sure she won’t make this mistake again”. I stood up for the little-old-lady, I said my job description is not to shake-down little-old-ladies, and I said that she would be on their doorstep the next morning. My supervisors had to have the last word and they said she won’t pay. I believe it happened exactly as I predicted cause I never heard another word about it.

I couldn’t take anymore of the stress of that job.

And, add in the garbage hours we were forced to take. I had enough.

I put in my notice after working there 9-months.

My supervisor found out I put in my notice. She called me at home to bitch me out. She yelled “Don’t bother coming back”. I asked if I was being fired. She yelled “THAT’S right Your Fired”. I said Thank You! And I went to file for unemployment.

Me and the lady worker at the unemployment office had a good laugh over it. I said the bossy bitch just had to get in the last word and I hope the company takes a hard look at her for firing someone who already put in their notice.

Then this boss gave me a bad reference. I found it out when an employer told me. I called an attorney. This attorney advised me to contact this supervisor and say I have been in contact with an attorney. And, tell I have been advised that employer can only disclose dates of employment.

So I did that

It put a stop to the blackballing. And, it didn’t cost me a dime. Most attorneys will give you a free 20 minute phone call.


jeannie, you are a brave woman. Unfortunately, there are a lot of such bosses around. Ex used to work for a few and being the victim he was, continually bitched about it. Spaths working for spaths = watch out!. No wonder there was also so much tension, drama and conflict wherever he worked. I heard they had a party after he left one place. Yet he always made out to me he was the victim.

I am still getting my head around the deceit bit, esp because he put on such an honest front and warned me about con men. If there was one group of people he despised, it was “con men”. The other was feminists. He hated charmers, fast talkers, smooth crawlers, “dodgy” salespeople, etc. So that’s why whenever I read the traits of psychopathology that included words like lying, charming, con artists, I dismissed them. But most people agree he is highly manipulative. He disagrees and after I once pointed out that I didn’t want to respond because of his manipulation, he now ends all his texts with “I am not trying to be manipulative.” Is that weird?

super chic

pooh, welcome to LF, sounds like you’ve been here for a while! I’m so glad you posted, it’s nice to meet you… no, you’re not crazy, it sure is tough when that light bulb goes off in you head and you have no other choice but to accept what is reality. I hope you will continue posting, it helps! Lots of good, supportive peeps here.
God Bless.


geminigirl: “sexually transmitted debt”.
OMG girl, made me nearly fall out of my chair!! LOL that is GREAT! I had used the term “Mentally, emotionally, physically and FINANCIALLY Raped” but I like the humor in STD. 🙂

Stay strong, NO CONTACT is the ONLY way to get AWAY! You don’t owe him ANYTHING!

Thank you! WOW, sounds like we may have married the same man (not really, just the same playbook.)

the VERY abridged version:
I had a nearly 800 Credit score (& 2 mid range cc’s -one that I paid off monthly & one I had a 50% bal with 0 intr. paying for some computer and camera equipmt). He love-conned me into marriage (taking over the bills and accounts 3 months before the wedding). By the end (3 years later)… I had a 3 month old baby, no job, and…
I was over $600,000 in debt (including the house with my parents name on it as co-signers… supposed to have only been for a couple of months) I dropped to a NO Score Credit score with I can’t even remember how many CC’s that I never knew I had. He got them online as me! NO ONE CARES (not the police, CC Companies, Etc… BC I was married to him.) He had figured out how to run the full balance up (after upping my limits without my permission) then making a full payment and going to the ATM and clearing out the full balance of the account before the check bounced causing the card balance to be DOUBLE the limit!

I filed bankruptcy (in the middle of the divorce and don’t let ANYONE tell you that you can’t do that… YES YOU CAN)
My debt is cleared.
My dad is out over $150,000
My Aunt is out over $7500 (a whole other con)
My credit score is back in the low/mid 600’s and climbing
I have a beautiful new small home, nice little car, my child is safe and happy (having minimal to no contact over the last year w/ the Spath)
I just don’t even bother to respond to his emails and unless he asks about our child, I DON”T HAVE TO! He pretends to want to come and see our son, but never follows through and NEVER asks how he is doing. He is out on Bail Bond in 2 states, with a warrant for his arrest in my state for not showing up for his trial date the last 2 times (because he can’t leave his state due to the restrictions on his bail bond) LOL> I don’t plan to see him ever again! He hates that he has no control over me. (This is the best place I have been in the past 4 years!) For those of you in the middle of it… GET OUT. Cut your losses and get away!!! File charges if you can get someone to let you and just flat out move on has hard and fast as you can! There is light at the end of the tunnel even though you feel you may drown in the process. Hold your breath and keep going.

God Bless
Healthy & Happy

super chic

colvin, I hope you’ve kicked him out for good.
Sounds like you’re on the right path.
Having no contact with him at all would be perfect,
but, don’t know about that because you have kids together.
Stay strong!!!


I hope some one can help me, I have a family member that I care very much about, she is married to con artist, but does not believe
any one other than him, he is a lot older and constantly travels out side this country.he tells her all these story’s, but basically he just uses her.
There is enough evidence about him on the internet, but she has been told by him that it is all political, and she believes that garbage, he was convicted of fraud and looked up in another country and later deported back to this country as an undesirable immigrant and never to be aloud back into that pacific country.
I do not want to loose my family member, so I am not saying anything and just hope that she will wake up sooner than later.
He makes sure she has no time to think, as there are children and she is a great mum, and also she is working.
I hope some one can give me some advice, as she is worthy of some one better than that, I had lost her for 9 years when this man first come into her live, I have chosen to tolerate him,for the sake of her and the children, All I hope that she will wake up.
I have been a victim of a scammer myself and see the and hear the rubbish he is telling her.
That is ringing alarm bells, I am pleased that I have Donna’s book, that will help hopefully when she wakes up to him one day.
the likes of him are all smooth, manipulating sociopath that control other, I just wish that she was not so gullible.



Wow.. I see every sign of a Spath in my Ex and I still find myself questioning if he is a Spath or a Naurcisist. Donna’s article on Chemistry and this CC hits home. My ex took it all and always had a way of making me feel guilty, say F*** you when I pushed too much, Nagged me and wore me out. People in my life wonder how I let him take away so much. I am left with nothing as he has wiped me out of everything including retirement and no funds left for kids education. he is out there living a high end life style. Has CC charged off but still somehow living life and have been dating a woman/ 15 years younger to him and I am sure he is showing her the best time of her life. I feel sorry for the girl who has no clue what is coming next for her. I am hoping she is smarter and tougher and takes him for a ride (I can always hope can’t I)..

About your Hate comment. yes my Ex wants nothing to do with me. Blames me for in his words F’ing up his life (I filed a DV charge and filed for a divorce). I went against his wishes and didn’t let him do what he wanted so now I was a B**** and he will not talk to me about anything including kids.

Spaths are very vendictive and i know my Ex was and it took me forever to file for a divorce knowing how crazy it will get and believe me it has been crazy. I am in the courts still 4 years later. He is lying and keeping little money he makes under his brother’s girl friend and parents name so he can collect spousal support, and as mentioned on this site, LEGAL SYSTEM FAILES YOU WHEN DEALING WITH SOCIOPATHS. YOU CAN’T PROVE THEIR CON GAMES TO THE COURTS OR it costs you too much to even get the proof for the court.


I am so open minded that my brains fell out. I would accept anything he wanted, but not the lies.
My friend Todd is bi and I think he’s great. He lied about it to his wife for 25 years too, but he was NOT outed. he came clean, because he realized it was killing him. He’s a GREAT GREAT PERSON. AFIAK, he is the most humble and wonderful type of person you will ever meet. He cares about the human race. and he wants to make a difference and make it better and he is bi. But the spath was a spath and enjoyed being anything he wanted to be, just as long as he wa cheating.

super chic

easp, hi, your name seems familiar to me. I am so sorry to read your family member is fooled by this man, but, maybe she doesn’t want to see what’s happening. We have talked about this before here and have written that some of us, even if somebody told us what was going on, would not have believed it. Things got so bad for me that I could no longer be in denial, when I accepted what was really happening I felt like I hit a brick wall at 90 mph. I ignored red flags from people my entire life. Did not want to look at what I was really doing, which for me was being a person with no boundaries and someone who waited for people to change and to realize how much they loved me. I’m glad you have Donna’s book, i wish there was some way you could guide her to this website, probably make her mad. I think you are doing the best you can for her, just being there, being part of her support system until she wakes up, she’s in a fog.


so, liar = bad.

and the open minded remark made me laugh. 🙂

i know the things that you have written about in regards to sex and sexual wounding with the spath. he was a turd: manipulative, exploitative, duplicitous. but he was not that way because he was bisexual, but because he was a spath.

think about this line: ’drug dealer child molesting bisexual’
now this one: ’drug dealer child molester who banged anyone he could’ or, ’drug dealing child molester on the down-low’ as possibly more accurate.

You know my intention, right? people will come here who identify who are bi will be scared off, people who are hiding this from the folks on lf will know it’s not safe to reveal something that is innate to them, it will hinder their healing. not like not revealing non normative orientation isn’t hard enough as it is. It’s often hard and scarey. You know that from your friend’s experience. Why would someone wait most of their life if is was easy?

if someone thinks that being bi in and of itself is morally wrong, that’s one thing, and not what I am writing about to you. If we equate a certain innate trait with being ‘a drug dealing child molester’ we damn the trait, with little understanding of the impact our actions on others. it’s the same as damning all men, or all women, all gays, all st8ts or…all people who have been spathed. We have to protect one another, not make it harder.

Some of them must be bi – but at the same time, i can’t get over thinking that whoever they can con is fair game, given that control and winning are their top motivators, not connection. People bother to come out as gay or bi because they want connection where they feel they will most have it. Spaths aren’t looking for connection, and they don’t care who they hurt. I’d say people in sexual minorities are much easier to exploit – we have to be careful, there are lots of bigots who would harm us in one way or another. (think about what its like to know a spath has a sex tape of you – that’s kind of how gay/bi folk feel all the time – something hanging over our heads to be used against us at any time by a bad, or just ignorant, or thoughtless person). I have often thought about this when women on lf talk about their male spaths being on the downlow – so many scared people ripe to be spathed.

Some people use their sexuality responsibly, some don’t, orientation is not the predictor. And then there are people and times in people’s lives when they are confused or sorting things through, and they hurt people inadvertently. Then there are spaths – and they are more complicated for us to figure out, and are ALWAYS about the damage they can do- either pointedly, or collaterally.

Some of us here subscribe to the spaths being exploitative of anyone and sex just being a tool in their, um, bag. Some of us think our spaths are gay or bi, and exploitative. Who knows where the con lays (no pun intended); is it the wife of the spath who is being lied to about orientation, or the guys he extracts favors from on the side? Or both?

My spath’s orientation doesn’t matter to me (and we know what she does with gender! and that doesn’t matter to me either) – that she is breathing is what bothers me.

kim frederick

One-step, can I ask a question? Let’s just keep it theoretical. What do you think of a man, in his late 20’s, with a difficult childhood, who, at one point engaged in male prostitution and exotic dance in a gay club atmosphere, who is dealing with various addictions and trying to recover, who doesn’t have a clue if he’s gay. Really, really doesn’t know.
So confused about it that he asked a died in the wool hetero, “HOW do you know you’re hetero?”
I might add that he has no problem boffing women, and likes to keep 3 or 4 on hand at any given time.
So, by his behavior, he’s hetero…but by his confusion, wouldn’t we/he surmise that he is at least bi…..or is this an example of the “anything that moves spath mentality” we are speaking of above? If not, what exactly is the confusion. I just don’t get it?
I hope this is in no way offensive to anyone.
I really admired your post above, and so relate to it in many ways. I, sometimes want to say the same thing when people make blanket statements about addicts, or people who have made bad mistakes in life….that they are automatically bad, spathy people….not to compare that to an innate thing like sexual preferance, but still worth a word in their defense. :/


Thanks for your concern…I do agree with you, but am not yet in a position to leave. Unfortunately, I have no support system because I don’t know who to trust. I’ve trusted telling a couple of people about his control and lies only to later discover that they think I’m crazy and need mental help. Many friends believe his lies and think he’s amazing. To them I’m unappreciative of just how wonderful he has made my life. In fact, a few act as though I should be grateful that he puts up with my crap! So they laugh with him and try to avoid being around me.

Approx. 10 years ago, he decided that we should travel. The schedule made it rough for me to maintain a good business. So, I finally gave up trying to juggle work and travel and ultimately stopped working a few years ago. Besides, it was a no win for me. He had encouraged me (for tax purposes) to have all of my commission income checks written to his company (no longer to me). So, I was stuck.

Since I’m no longer employed, and in my 60’s, it’s really scary to leave. If I did get a job, I’d be expected to either hand my check over or spend all of it for household expenses. So, it’s a no win situation for me…and he knows that.

Since I’ve always wanted to be an artist, I’m finally spending my time doing artwork. I’d like to create enough works that I can eventually make some sales and then make a life.



Although there are strong similarities I really doubt we are talking about the same person. My ex spath BF does not have as good a job as yours did. The way he targets women with houses and phone plans, and anything else that would be to his advantage is he frequents dating sites.

It makes sense when you think about it. Divorcees, widows who have the house but need some help with it. He is a handy-man type of person who seems at first like the perfect boy friend for someone who is just tired of getting out there or not ready to yet. He will fix your sink at the same time he will steal chump change from your drawer.

They seem to work from the same play book.




Yes, I can definitely identify with you. The reason my situation is a little confusing is that I didn’t have anything in the way of money or property. I was a stay-at-home housewife.

When I met my now ex husband what I did have was a substantial amount of child support and an autistic child. He had never been married but had a house he had bought as an investment. At the time I was taking college classes trying to finish my degree and selling beauty products door to door. I met him while doing that.

He was at home during the day as he worked the swing shift. It was convenient for him because of his weird working hours he didn’t have to go out and meet anyone, I just rang his door bell one day.

Looking back now I think what he saw was a clueless but generous, easy on the eyes, woman who had a used car. He could have easily bought one but hadn’t got around to it yet. His was totaled in an accident.

I don’t think he actually set out to marry me for my car. He was about ready to lose his house. The company he worked for closed while we were dating so he was between jobs. His sister put him up to this I believe. She told me that since he spent so much time at my place “rental” that I should not be so hypocritical and move in with him to help him out with is house. Because I was the “church girl” type I wouldn’t live with a guy unless I was married to him. Maybe my ex and I would have never got married had I just did what she suggested.

Instead, I was so busy taking care of autistic child I didn’t know what I got involved with. I was like the frog in the boiling pot.

He was very possessive about his house and didn’t want me to change it. His sister, on the other hand, hugged me when she saw how much better it looked. I had brought furniture. LOL

What he did see in me was the potential to make money later. I had had some college. Everything I talked about even things like writing a romance novel…..I got one of those formula books….on how to write them, to being on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, he could see that somewhere, somehow I was going to make money for him. I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous but because I was good at the TV version of the show he really wanted me to try to get on it.

In the meantime, we lived day to day with him doing pretty much whatever he wanted. He was similar to the boyfriend spath I talk about as far as not much ambition. I went from the over achieving officer’s wife I had been in my first marriage to an under-achieving college drop out who through the years started to gain weight. The reason I dropped out of college is that I had moved to a different town after three years of college in one, and the schools were so different it was like starting over.
At this point it sounds like I am on the defensive. I gained weight because my Narcissistic mother projected her weight issue on me. I was in self-defeating rebellion. I quit school because I didn’t think I was going to have to use it. I was married with an autistic child, for Heaven’s sake. He got a blue-collar job that he has kept all of these years but never ceased to complain about how much he hated it.

I because more and more of a disappointment to him as I settled into being a mother and a wife. Of all the verbal abuse things he called me WORTHLESS was the most hurtful, but it makes sense now. Towards the end of the marriage he was talking to his sister on the phone a lot in whispers. I believe he was waiting to see what I was going to inherit from my mother.

On my side, I started working at my profession as a ParaPro so had to interview every year. Therefore, it is more like part time work. I loved it but most of my money was used, ironically, to get us out of credit card debt. One time I traded my first ex husband 5 years of child support for a money market account that he was going to leave to my daughter. I used that to get us out of debt. By this time first husband didn’t by law have to pay child support so I figured it was a win/win situation. I used that entire amount 25,000 to get us out of debt. I believed that the debt was my fault.

It was my mother who pointed out to me one day how much husband was spending. He would put something on lay-a-way at the Coin Shop, and they would get it out for him for Christmas. He had possession of my late father’s coin collection. One time, he took a gold piece and sold it and bought silver with it. I was furious with him and let him know. He had tears in his eyes. I know, probably crocodile tears. He had said to me once about the gold coins and my mother. “Little Old Ladies think this way. There are five coins, so I could put a fake coin in and she wouldn’t know the difference.” I have a good memory but when I was in the middle of all of this I didn’t realize what was happening. I was the frog in the pot. That is why I could Identify so much with the O is for Umbrella Thread.

One day, I finally woke up and started doing what I wanted with my house, decorating it the way I wanted, asking H to sell some of his stuff so we could get out of credit card debt. If you have ever watched the TV show “Hoarders” notice how mean they can be when really confronted. He started holding on tighter and tighter. I was determined to get out of debt and take no prisoners. It was all out war. He turned on the projection calling me a gold digger, Huh? The verbal abuse got worse and worse. I finally broke one of his valuable pottery pieces “accidentally” to prove a point and he left the house flipping off the power as he left.

I felt like we couldn’t afford a divorce. I handled the money but I was not the breadwinner. He was. He reminded me of that constantly. He wanted me to leave. I didn’t. He finally did one day and told my mother to ask me what I really thought about her. The worst I ever said was “My mother is driving me nuts.” He totally betrayed me though. Because he had cut her grass and had lunch at their house a lot he thought they were going to take his side in divorce. He finally left me a week before our 25th wedding annivesary. Why? Because I wanted to clean up the house, get rid of some things and get us out of debt?

No, the reason was because he really didn’t love me and found that I couldn’t be used any more.

What Donna said about Hate and spaths rang true to me. They can and do hate you if you upset their sense of entitlement. That is exactly what I did. The divorce was very difficult. Even the mediator said “He is so hard to reason with”. His lawyer was the one who finally told him that the offer I made to buy him out of his half of the house was the best offer he was going to get. He signed it.




I loved your description, “He looks like a homeless dude with rotting teeth, but he can connive ANYONE, especially someone who is already rotten to begin with.” They can convince anyone, even a phd. Yeppers.

Also, with the bi-sexual issue, my daughter would have got made at me too. “Mom, you’re implying it’s a bad thing.” She calls me out on a lot. I don’t think you meant to imply that it’s a bad thing at all, it’s that spaths have such screwed up sexuality that they make everyone their conquest, no matter male, female or donkey.

I think mine also has that same mentality which makes me scared for my son.


shabbychic , thank you for your advice. I have contemplated of getting her to read Donna’s book and also sending her the link to this website, but that would not be the right thing to do at the present time.
She will wake up one day [hoping soon] I even wish some times when he goes on those overseas trips that he will get caught again,
that would make her wake up what he is, I am certain that he has her money that she had. She told me that he has invested for her.[yes in his pocket] it appears to me she is has to live of the money she earns with her children. It makes me sad and also very concerned,she talented trained violinist and also very well educated. those sociopath certainly know when to strike, just as it happen to me[and it will never happen to me again]
we booth lost some one that we loved very much to cancer at the time[ her father my husband of forty three and halve years]
I know it has nothing to do with how intelligent one is, it has something to do with ones emotional.
This bloke isa real good con artist from what I have been told he even got money out of a police women and she did not get anything in writing from him.When he talks it sounds like he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, I believe that is on of the traps victims fall into.
I am just going say nothing for the time and make sure I am there for her in particular when she wakes up.


Unless you’re capable of a full scale intervention, I wouldn’t take it head on.

But, perhaps, were you to read through some of the posts and identofy some of the things other people have felt in the course of a relationship with a spath, you might be able to describe how other people you know feel in poor relationships. You might be able to ask if she ever feels like some of these people describe.

I would lead more gently and not push.

Unless I had a PI report that nailed his Butt to the wall and then, you bet I’d force the issue!

If you know and you don’t tell her somehow, for shame.

Its not ok to know and not say. But, you can’t count on her hearing you the first time. She may not. If she doesn’t, keep the door open.

How many of us would have been grateful for that kind of outreach in the long run? Most of the time, people give up, walk away and don’t say.

My dad even had the PI report. The PI told him not to tell me. When I mentioned that later on, most people who heard the story were horrified by it.

Its a tough call. But, I don’t know how to support you saying nothing because in the end, there are issues with that too. And I would encourage you to take the risk to speak your mind.

All the best,


silvermoon, you have given me some good ideas,I am going to talk to some one who is a very good family friend and also in the police department in a higher position.
There is no way that this spath is doing anything honest in those country’s he goes to very often.
What he is doing to my family member, is disgraceful when I see her she is basically his servant also he has no problems leaving her with children in a home that is very isolated.
What I am going to do as well maybe relate this this website to my experience with a spath and she might become interested.
But even than I have to be very careful how i do this, as i do not want loos her again.


silvermoon, you have given me some good ideas,I am going to talk to some one who is a very good family friend and also in the police department in a higher position.
There is no way that this spath is doing anything honest in those country’s he goes to very often.
What he is doing to my family member, is disgraceful when I see her she is basically his servant, also he has no problems leaving her with children in a home that is very isolated.
What I am going to do as well maybe relate this this website to my experience with a spath and she might become interested.
But even than I have to be very careful how i do this, as i do not want loos her again.


One joy/step,
I see your point, I will edit my remarks. thank you for pointing out the error of my words.

I AM angry at being deceived by 2 guys on the DL. One was my exP and the other was my good frenemy, Kevin, who KNEW but preferred to be loyal to a guy he only met once, rather than me, who really cared about him. it is soooo bizarre.
I told my bi-friend Todd about that story. The link to his story is up above, you should check it out in my post to Hens.
I told Todd, that he is lucky that he came out to his wife before a spath got to him and blackmailed him. Black mail can work in soooo many ways. It can be as covert as you can imagine. SPATHS ALWAYS get you in compromising situations and then you KNOW you are bonded with them because you share a SECRET!!!! Oh the bond of a SECRET is intense. Especially a SHAMEFUL secret.
One Joy, you spoke of a video…. OH YEAH, I know about that.
I know that my spath took a video of me during sex with multiple guys, which he coerced me into doing by crying and telling me that he would NEVER believe I really loved him unless I did this. blah blah blah, I was 25 and really dumb and couldn’t imaging that this WONDERFUL man could actually be LUCIFER. how do I know that there was a video? Because 2 months before the sexcapade, he told me he was taking the $3000 video camera and editing equipment (this was 1991) to a storage locker because he thought I would break it if he left it in my apartment. (WTF?) then about a week later he said it was stolen from his storage locker. LOL!. spaths lie and lie and lie and every word from their lips are lies. That’s how I know that there is a video of me in an orgy. (with my future brother in law!! the homeland security agent. LOL!)
So why do I talk about it here? Because I WILL HAVE NO MORE SECRETS. secrets are the ammunition of the spath.
And their unbelievable drama stories are the “tells”.

I did nothing evil. my actions were aimed at proving my love for him. I was stupid but not evil, I’m not ashamed. I tell lots of people what happened because that is freedom from shame and freedom from what the spath had planned for me.

I have come to realize that my frenemy Kevin was a spath too. just a garden variety. When you keep secrets, when you are overwhelmed with shame, you are spath. That’s Kevin. the closet bi or gay or whatever. As far as my exP, he would fuck a snake if it would stay still (to quote Oxy).

I’ll edit my post above, you are right, the words are a reflection of my anger towards what happened to me.


I’ve got a house for rent. Never rented it before and need to pull a credit report, but don’t know anything about it. What do I need to have as proof of permission? I’m very worried about renting to spaths. I’m working on a partial rent, partial work agreement, so most people who respond do not have good credit. But I need to know.

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