By | May 27, 2010 200 Comments

Sociopaths and Suicide

Although some see sociopaths as too emotionally deficient to experience the despair necessary to suicide, I see suicide as offering a viable option for some sociopaths, and I’m going to explain why.

Let me start with a bit of crude, brutal logic: for many sociopaths, as we know, life is very much a game; hence, when game over, life over. No more game, what’s left? The answer may be, nothing.

And yet it may be less “despair” and “depression” with which the sociopath is left when his act has been shut-down than his preferring no longer to deal with an existence he  knows will cease supplying the gratifications to which he’s grown accustomed, perhaps addicted and certainly privileged.

In the face, then, of this massive problem, the sociopath, with his notorious penchant for escaping inconvenient situations, may consider “checking-out” out of life—suiciding—when it, too, becomes insolubly inconvenient.

Some sociopaths, recognizing that their run of exploitation has ended, may use suicide as a final act of rebellion and contempt, as if to express, “See! You may have apprehended me, but watch! I’ll kill myself, and so I’ll escape again! Nobody gets me. Nobody makes me account! I am accountable to myself only, and now I choose to disappear, permanently. Ha!

Of course, we’re all acquainted with the incarcerated sociopath who seeks his death, and may even generate publicity around his quest to be capitally executed. His is the case of the imprisoned sociopath asking the state, in effect, by proxy, to assist him in his suicide. What are we to make of this?

For some, the specter of the prisoner seeking execution arouses a certain sympathy; the prisoner may be seen as pursuing a form of ennobled self-justice, which may be interpreted (or rather, misinterpreted) as reflecting his belated humanity.

But what is the incarcerated, suicide-seeking sociopath really doing? Where is he really coming from? The answer is that he’s doing what he’s always done—exploiting for an edge, an advantage.

In such cases his spirited self-advocacy for death-by-state reflects some very basic sociopathic tendencies, among them his audacious grandiosity and arrogance. For even in his wretched, no-status state, here he is making noise and refusing to recognize limits—that is, he’s still attempting to exercise omnipotent control; he’s determined to determine even the way he dies!

But the incarcerated sociopath’s pursuit of assisted suicide-by-state is also, and probably principally, about his desire to escape a life intolerably devoid of gratifications.

Remember that, for many sociopaths, life without an ongoing infusion of gratification is like living in prison. For some of these sociopaths, this just is not a life worth living.

It is possible that despair, finally, is a driving factor when sociopaths attempt or commit suicide. However, it is the source of his despair that’s probably most noteworthy and  distinguishing: the sociopath often feels his despair as an existence intolerably devoid of sufficient gratifications, and the promise of future gratifications. And so his despair derives, ultimately, from the frustration of his greedy, insatiable demands.

Adding to his despair is the probable sense of his shattered omnipotence—that is, the sense that he can no longer exercise the kind of control over others, and control over (and satisfaction of) his gratification-habit to which he developed a deep, arrogant sense of entitlement.

The sociopath’s belief in his omnipotence, a belief deployed in the service of producing continual gratifications, gives him his superficial, if not only, purpose in life. Deprive him of it, and all bets are off.

(This article is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns was for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)

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During the time that I was still figuring out my h-spath is a sociopath, my twin sister sent me a book, Bones in the Desert: The True Story of a Mother’s Murder and a Daughter’s Search, by Jana Bommersbach, detailing the story of a woman who was murdered by her boyfriend (after being together 14 years). The boyfriend took her for all she was worth. When I read this article, I thought of this book, the fact that the boyfriend committed suicide, the police being onto him, trying to put a case together to jail him (for the rest of his earthly life). This book actually helped me to “see” that my h-spath was a sociopath, seeing many similarities between the deceased lady’s boyfriend and my h-spath, also relating to what the woman experienced on an emotional level. The boyfriend was at the end of his game, so he threw in the towel, killing himself by hanging himself in the garage of her house.


I posted a question on Aging Out of Psychopathy wondering if when they get older and are not as successful in finding victims, do they suffer from a feeling of anger? Seems inevitable.
One of the last things my S said to me was…I have problems you have no idea about, nowhere left to hide, life sucks for me too…
On one hand, I can almost see him getting to the point of wanting to commit suicide if and when it all gets too much. He said to an acquaintance of mine regarding the online thing, in part…I really thought this was a good way to meet people but it has all been a pain in my ass….
If he can’t find one to hold onto, to become the decoy per se, the one he cheats on and feels like he is getting over on, it becomes a game not worth playing.
On the other hand, I feel that in his mind, he probably is saying, I know I still got it, I can’t give up yet, just one more…like the little engine that could. Then when he is there, what is to stop him from giving it even one MORE try?

In reference to the last thing he said to me, while I initially felt sadness for him because I felt like he was finally going to open up and admit something solid to me, I chose to see it as a continuing play for pity and did not answer him. I’m glad I didn’t. This website just reinforces that feeling.

Steve—Paragraph 5 pretty much sums up the way I feel it would be played out. As if they were saying, Even in the end, I still win!!

Ox Drover

Dear Steve,

Great article, as ALWAYS!

One thing I might point out, though a bit off topic, is that prison is not necessarily without “gratification” to the psychopath, especially one who has “adjusted” to prison. In fact, there is a continual round of “games” to play, cons to pull, with other inmates and with staff! In fact, a certain class of inmates, like my P-son for example seem to THRIVE in this environment. It is FUN to them on so many levels.

Charlie Manson is another one who reportedly “enjoys” his life in prison; his fame, the letters he gets from outside, and the inmates who “admire” him.

I agree with you though about some psychopaths who commit suicide by “cop” or “state” or “self.” It is the ULTIMATE “Fark you!” to the system, the family, the victims they have harmed, etc. The last CONTROL! The ultimate ESCAPE from consequences.


for ALL that she has done, for all that she is, i can only wish and pray that she DOES kill herself….that life gets very boring for her…the more we out her, the more likely that is to happen.


“Some sociopaths, recognizing that their run of exploitation has ended, may use suicide as a final act of rebellion and contempt, as if to express, “See! You may have apprehended me, but watch! I’ll kill myself, and so I’ll escape again! Nobody gets me. Nobody makes me account! I am accountable to myself only, and now I choose to disappear, permanently. Ha!””

This article reminds me of Andrew Cunanan, the guy who went on a 3-month killing spree in 1997.
He’s the one who murdered fashion designer, Gianni Versace, in Miami before committing suicide.

Before Cunanan went on this killing spree, his only crimes were petty theft and drug dealing.
That’s what I find so scary about sociopaths.
With so many of these cases, there were no previous indications that the person would turn into a killer.
You just never know if/when they are going to “snap” and go off the deep end.

I also believe that it’s important to note that Andrew Cunanan’s first murder victim in this killing spree was his FRIEND, Jeffrey Trail.
Cunanan’s second murder victim was an acquaintence, David Madson.

This is why you have to be very careful around sociopaths, especially if the relationship is ending, or you are going through a rough patch.

It sort of makes me crazy when ladies on this website say things like, “my sociopath is not violent”.
I am concerned for these ladies, because I believe a sociopath can always turn into a killer, especially when pushed into a corner, or they know “the gig is up”.

Even if the physical violence never comes to fruition, I believe the possibility is always there.

It’s just a matter of choice (and impulse control) for these freaks.



To even contemplate that my h-spath could be a killer is too disturbing to think about, having had enough chit to digest already about him. After reading your post, it just tells me that this could be a possibility, so I must always be careful when it comes to the spath. It bothers me that this mental illness exists, is something that all of us have to contend with.


We can’t get them labeled and so the decision to break from them once we understand is entirely burdened in the targets because there is not enough understanding in the court system that these charming disordered can SNAP at any time.

And the rules of behavior don’t apply to them.

Its not an illnes that can be treated or cured, its a disorder that exists in them – and it NEVER goes away or changes.

Yeah, there is no such thing as believing it couldn’t or won’t happen with this one or that one. Hell, they can’t tell or promise. And the fact they haven’t doesn’t mean the can’t – or won’t.

I think about how much higher the probability gets then they already have……..


Engaging article , Steve. You highlight yet another facet of this personality disorder I never gave much thought. I have always felt he is too consumed with himself – especially now that he is so happy and living his life – to ever feel desperate enough to end his life.

I do remember him saying odd things such as ” You have no idea what it’s like to be me inside my head . ” “Sometimes I can’t stand being in my own skin . ” ” There are times I would just as soon not wake up . What are we here for anyway ? ”

I wonder now if they were words of inner pain or a play for attention.

I thought those were the times he needed to be ” more loved ” – so he would see his value – and I worked harder to make that happen .

The one line that sticks is ” It will never be over between us until one of us is dead. ”

In any case – I often feel now there will be no peace until one of us IS GONE …….

He is flying high now in his new life – don’t think he’s leaving the planet anytime soon ……………………


Food for thought Steve

Again I would have also assumed he was “too self absorbed” to ever contemplate something like suicide. I remember when my non P son went through a phase of wanting to kill himself (unless I stopped seeing the P) the P told me to “let him do it” he said things like “so what, if he is that stupid he deserves to die, tell him I will gladly end his life for him if he needs a hand” I thought it was just anger/joke but he has zilch compassion for suicides…my son was just being a drama queen and I talked and talked with him explaining he cant hold my life to ransom now, I deserved love in my life etc. etc. and his threat of suicide would not ever work with me. He ended up okay and finally accepted the P just before we broke up anyway….

I’m trying to imagine what a P would do, when all avenues are closed to him….no chance at manipulation, exploitation, intrigues or cons….I would so love to set up an experiment to see what they would do. I guess prison is the closest thing but as Oxy says they love it there!!!


The sociopath I was involved in did call me when we were teenagers, saying he was at a telephone booth (those were the days) near the ocean and was going to go kill himself. He later said I saved his life (an act I rue),….but of course did not thank me or feel a debt of gratitude…in fact it was just brought up as a pity play after the fact…..but now I think the reason I probably did save his life was because I gave him hope…ah, here was someone he could still manipulate, who would still sooth him, build him up. I think he was serious about suicide right before the call, and it did not start out as a pity play at the time. But just before doing the deed, he was struck by the thought…well, maybe there is still a game I can play, let me test that, and he called me. I had no idea then who or what I was dealing with or I would have just hung up!


My ex-spath told me online…why don’t you just kill yourself? He wouldn’t commit suicide if his mommy was still around to ‘rescue him’ again. 45 years old…pitiful.

I don’t really blame his Mom…he’s playing her like he tries to play everyone else.


Watch it live.
Click on below link.
Watch the defendant smiling waiting for his verdict….


Trying to watch…I’m getting an error


The bald defense attorney looks shell shocked….he knows it’s not good news coming.

Defendents doing the obligitory neck stretch…

Ox Drover

Dear Rosa,

HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!!!!!! I wish I could say (and mean it) “Rosa you are full of BS!,” but I can’t, your point about NEVER KNOWING to what extent they can ADVANCE to QUICKLY is very scary!

I never even imagined my X-DIL would ever EVER try to kill anyone, much less try to kill my son C. I knew she was “sneaky,” I just didn’t know HOW SNEAKY! Deceptive–but not HOW DECEPTIVE!

I think the POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE/MURDER is in them all if the circumstances are there, and they are cornered, or have a big enough narcissistic-injury or threat to their plans.

The big thing is, I KNOW I PROVOKED my P son into the murder attempt on me because he knew I had CONTROL over the “family estate” and the only way he could get it was “over my dead body.” That was FINE WITH HIM!

Any time you try to “punish” or “control” them or get between them and what they want or think is theirs, LOOK OUT, they can do some amazingly bad things. If you “pith off” someone “normal” they might, MIGHT, CONSIDER slapping you and huffing off in a stomp, but these people PLAY FOR KEEPS.



Ox Drover

Dear ErinB,

I just noticed the TEMP where you are is 57 degrees! I used to visit the Reno/Tahoe area a lot years and years ago!

It is 91 today here (hot for this time of year but we need it for the hay crop!)

Spent a June in Colorado at 9,000 feet a couple of years ago and gosh it was nice even if I couldn’t breathe the thin air, it was SO COOL! Get the air matress out, I’m coming to visit for the summer! LOL I’ve got Fat saddled up and Hairy with a pack saddle and I’m headed west! Let’s see, at 20 miles a day, might make 30 (could have done 50 when I was a kid) miles a day, gosh, might as well cancel, I won’t be there til WINTER!

Well, at least there are 12 people in the state that are not total fools!


Uh yeah oxy…’s snowing right now and has been for the last week…..i’m envious when I hear the woes of the heat stories here.
I got plenty of bedrooms….and your always welcome…..
Hopefully you’ll bring good weather!!!

“Well, at least there are 12 people in the state that are not total fools!” (can you make that 13 pleeeze!) 🙂


The defense is addressing jury now ….penalty phase!
Arguing against death.

He says the DP is reserved for the worst of the worst…..
WTF????? His client is what…..half way worst? INSULTING!


Defense is describing how JB grew up, with abuse and yadayada…..
how he’s beena model inmate since arrest. How he handled himself sincebeing attacked in prison and how he didn’t cause it….
I guess he’s trying to humanize him…..

This ought to be interesting now….with his family all speakingetc…..

He’s describing him as a nice guy…..YEAH….the gals he raped and murdered were TOO!

Ox Drover

Dear ErinB,

WOW!!! You must live in the high elevations! Or be delusional, one or the other! LOL How about we spend summers at your place and winters at mine! Perfect arrangement!

Back when I lived in El Centro, CA I could go from 80 degree weather in the desert, to snow and ice in the mountains, to the cool 60s in San Diego! No climate was more than 2 hours away summer or winter! SUMMERS were worse than hell though!

Yea, he is such a NICE GUY and DESERVES to “live” while his victims were worthless ho’s…actually, I want to see him get life w/o parole and be in GEN POP cause there will be a bunch of BIGGER BADDER BAD ARSES who can show him what RAPE is all about! If he gets the death penalty he will get a private room. I think he ought to share a cell with BUBBA!

You know, Erin, Karma be a biatch!

super chic

@ EB, I guess I missed the live feed,
I’ll have to watch it later to see his face when they said GUILTY!

Ravenless Tower

Hmmm… I’ve been NC for six months and I laugh thinking it would ALMOST be worth breaking it to send this little push to the 50yo SOB!



super chic

@ravenlesstower, you’re giving me ideas!! 🙂



An interesting article.

In the case of my S-ex, I always felt he was a slow-motion suicide. There was a history of hypertension in his family — both mother and father — had her first stroke in her early-50s and was rendered brain dead by a second stroke about a dozen years later.

I used to think S was just running the pity play on me when he would say “I’m going to end up just like my mother.” While I’m smart enough to realize that was part of it, I also think that suiciding by stroke was where he was working towards. I have friends who came from a similar genetic pool and they watch their weight and blood pressure like a hawk. Not S-ex. While he looked fit and trim when I met him (3 weeks after he got out of prison), by the time I sent him packing 15 months later he had packed on almost 80 pounds. I truly think that on some level he looked in the mornng and thought “I’m 40, fat and flacid. Why the hell am I even trying anymore?”

I agree with you that on some level they start to realize they are aging out of the S-system. And they definitely want to give a finger to the world on their way out. Thing they don’t realize is that by the end, nobod gives a damn whether they live or die. Hell, in the case of my S-ex I’d spring for the funeral if it meant he were no longer on the face of this earth.

Newlife08 — good to see you posting. How did things work out on your daughter’s sweet-16?

super chic

EB, I just watched the video of JB being found guilty. Too bad we couldn’t see his sociopathic face! Keep us posted on the sentencing.

Ox Drover

Matt, good to see you! Sorry I can’t pull up any other of the threads than this one! DUH! How’s DC and the new job? Miss you when you aren’t around! Good point on “slow suicide” as well. Seems lots of folks do that! Being in health care a long time I have seen it a LOT!

RAVEN: congratulations on your 6 months NC! TOWANDA for you!!!!!

Good night, EB and everyone else! Glad that one more P bit the dust and will be doing some HARD TIME for his crimes.

Hello All, There was a recent case here in my neck of the woods that involved a man who had recently been “rejected” by his girlfreind. He ended up driving his car headlong into oncoming traffic, killing two innocent people, then stole his ex’s truck and again drove into traffic, killing himself and his young son.

The press is all about how he was “depressed”, despondent, etc. While reading about it I am going NO NO NO..he was a spath, couldn’t take the rejection, and figured out how to punish his ex- big time. His gig was up and he decided to make a big splash on the way out.

Not that I see a spath under every rock these days but….

I agree that EVERY spath has the potential for violence. What curbs their appetite for it is only measured by how it will fit into their “game plan”. They are capable of any heinous act that they believe will benefit them or give them pleasure.

Off topic update, especially to Erin B, who gave me such good moral support lately, I have finally settled with the spath on our divorce. I won a moral victory, and a financial one, ( convoluted and maybe not worth much). Bottom line, I spent a lot of money I couldn’t afford to force him to commit, kicking and screaming, to the notion that he has some repsonsibility to me after 27 yrs. of being the bread winner. Among other things, I got a “universal direction” allowing me access to any bank anywhere in the world, regarding his affairs, and full ownership of any $$ I find. I will be shopping it around to private investigators on a contingency basis, $0.40 on the dollar.

Obviously he is quite smug in his conviction that I will not find. But that doe not change the fact that he is lying and hiding assets. So it is over, but not over.

Now, after 2 1/2 yrs. of ongoing litigation, and his stonewalling me, I am getting messages via my kids that he “would like to help”, but he is broke. PITY PLAY BULLCRAP. What they do is tweak the narrative of their carefully structured narrative. Trying to have his cake and eat it too-posing as nice guy to my kids.

And back to the suicide topic, I remember once telling him about the development of a mind reading device- a computer that can read your brain activity and deduce from that what you are thinking. His only answer? “If that is true, you might as well just kill yourself” Bingo- what more did I need to hear? I totally understand now, what an unbearable thing that would be to a spath…to have someone “read” their filthy – distgusting- evil minds.

As for the comments on how dangerous they are, yes indeedy, NEVER assume they will not act out, especially when cornered. And they will gladly take people down with them.

Steve, your articles are always succinct and thought provoking.
Many thanks.


Suicide isn’t their final act, it’s one of their first acts a con artist will use as a ploy while sizing you up, who he or she is dealing with (the new mark)! This sick depraved act is their way of gaging your reactions to a life (theirs) being taken on your watch. Do you act with sincerity and concern? Or do you not care? If you buy into their SOS call that they are ending their life … they will eventually take your life (meaning everything you are worth. If their SOS called is not taken seriously, or the person hangs up or walks away … the con artist knows immediately, the person they are dealing with isn’t going to be putty in their hands. They can’t figure out if the latter is uncaring or sees right through them, or was already taken earlier by another con artist.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MATT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How the heck are you ?? Nice to see you back too. I read often as I can -never miss Steve’s writings – but haven’t seen you. So glad to know you still check in. Oxy wrote you are in DC ?? – how is the job – updates please !!!!!

The Sweet 16 is June 11 – I definitely didn’t know what I was in for when I started it – but it is going to hopefully be AMAZING for my daughter and friends. We are busy making centerpieces and chocolates and fighting about details – such a bonding experience – LOL !!!

The only drawback is that although she doesn’t even speak to her father, she wants him there. I seem to think she wants it a “Perfect Evening ” – daddy / daughter dance and all. And I cannot deny her those moments – even though they have nothing to do with the reality of our lives. So I will have to put on my big girl panties and deal with it – and of course be as stunning and gracious as possible – I’ll be a WRECK and the nite won’t be perfect for me – but it’s her night !!!

And no – he is not contributing a dime – but I will bet you he acts the HOST all night !!!!

I suspect he will be uncomfortable because it is mainly kids , a few of my close friends that have helped us these last few years and a few mothers of D’s close friends- my mom and sister. D doesn’t want his family since they pretty much abandoned us 2 years ago – so he is on his own. And I am sure my friends aren’t going to warm up to him – heck – I have no idea where to sit him !!!!!

He would sit right next to me I am sure but that is not my plan – any suggestions anyone ????

Divorce is still in limbo – he is stonewalling – hiding BBQ cash I am sure – still waiting on the forensics report.

God willing – we will be done by end of summer.

Back to you – tell us how you are ……


Sit him with mothers you are friends with….have them flirt with him and do recon work for you.
it’s called multitasking!
The info he ‘gives up’ will be his admission to party price…..
Could be premium tix sales that night!!!

Im glad your having this for D. She deserves to feel special on her 16th!

Enjoy yourself and don’t let the spath get to you……enjoy the time/day with D!!!



Glad things are progressing well on the Sweet 16. Hmmm. Where to sit our the S-ex? May I suggest Philadelphia? Actually, I rather like Ms EB’s suggestion — figure out which of your friends are best a pumping information out of someone — you know the ones — the ones who get you talking and afterwards you say “how the hell did she get me talking about that?!” and set ’em loose on S-ex.

DC is going well. I really like the new position. It is enjoyable and satisfying to actually do work that I think makes a difference — getting to wear the white hat, as it were. My NYC place sold in less than 3 weeks on the market. But, I don’t expect the closing to take place until September. Just as well — I’d like to enjoy it for the summer — although when I wrote the checks yesterday for new DC apartment, NYC mortage and maintenance I almost fainted.

Things are going well on the relationship front — we have been together a year now. He is busy job hunting down here in DC. I got truly lucky when I met him after the demolitin derby S-ex played with my life.

All in all I’ve got a lot of balls in the air at the moment, but it is all good stuff. I hope things finalize for you by the end of the summer. It is the uncertainty that eats away at you. I’ve discovered that once you have the hard cold facts in front of you, no matter how bad they may be, that at least you know what you are dealing with and can begin to make plans to move forward.

Looking forward to this weekend. Off to the beach for a long weekend. Counting on it not raining. Speaking of beaches, are you off to the Jersey shore? Hope you don’t have Snooki and The Situation for neighbors!


ERIN !!!

You are too devious !!! Knowing his ego – he would think their being receptive to him would mean they understand and accept all he did to me .

I can hear it now – ” See !!! Even your friends know how crazy you are . They were all very nice to me and obviously see who the problem is.!!!

Yes- I am glad I am doing the party too . She deserves it after all we have been through as a family , her father’s intolerance of her emotional boundaries and hurt, and of course her back surgery. I fully expect him to make a case of the money I am spending but I don’t care – it’s not costing him anything. I need to do this for her – and down the line – something for my son , too.



You have me laughing . Snookie would not be seen dead where we go . I am trying to talk my D into the beach weekend – but she has a band /parade commitment Sunday and lots of homework. Still – I may pull rank – what better place to do work than in the sun and near the water .

Glad to hear all is busy but good – you deserve it all !!!!


Suicide is a complex act. The end result, the finality, of the act of suicide leaves those left behind in a WORLD of pain. Not always just immediate family members. Co workers, neighbors, community often are drawn into the wake suicide leaves as well.

When there is a homicide commited within a community, the community “rallys” together. They tend to embrace each other. There is a “place” for everyone to direct their anger, their outrage. The focus can eventually be on grieving the victim and directing anger at the person responsible for the murder. Both the victim and the perpertrator roles are clearly defined.

Suicide, turns this whole therory upside down and inside out. People don’t rally together. Rather community is torn and divided. There is stigma and ignorance, and lots of judgementmental opinions flying around…No one is embracing anyone. Not really. Everyone is pretty much left with dealing with this on their own.
Nothing is clearly defined with a suicide. The victim can also be considered the perpertrator by many. There is no one to point fingers at, and lash out at. Or bring to trial, or to punish. There will never be any JUSTICE for a suicide of your loved one.

Grieving the suicide of a loved one is almost as complex as the act of suicide itself.

Now to add more complexity to an already complex act.
What is suicide when the person who commits suicide is a sociopath or an N?

Well one thing comes to mind, as a survivor of suicide. The INTENT behind it. The intent would be different.

A person who takes their own life generally speaking, exits their life, because at least momentarily they can’t see beyond their pain. They REALLY can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel. Unfortunately they exit in the manner of a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They are trying to END their OWN pain, not intentionally create a world of pain for those they leave behind. Even thought the end result IS a world of pain for those left behind…I personally don’t think that is the intent….

However for a sociopath, there is no doubt in my mind, that the intent is twisted and what better way to torture those you leave. A master plan. The final curtain. It gives me goosebumps. It’s so distorted.


Oh….but Newlife…’s NOT about what HE thinks….sometimes leading him astray is WELL worth the info you gain.
Think of the internal smiles you may gain from ‘knowing’ the truth (about yourself) and being able to uncover something by him blabbing to your friends!!!

Feed his ego….and let him puke the info you need up!
It’ll be way easy to withstand his gaggles when you know you can NAIL him with what he puked up!!!

Better idea……I’m free on the 11th…..let’s ask Matt, maybe he can join us too……I’d be happy to ‘make a new friend’ in your STBX…..
Matt and I can tag team him…….we’d have him buried by the end of the night!!!


It’s all fun and games until Snooki gets punched in the face.
She’s OK, though….
And J-WOW lost 2 of her nails….just a really ugly incident..

Don’t fall in Love at the Jersey Shore! 🙂





I will fill out a place card for you and Matt – what a formidable team !!!! New Jersey is only a few hours away for Matt – but for you ???? Cocktail hour should be hilarious !!!! Dinner is buffet and he likes to eat – so there will be plenty of conversation time . Drinks are on me !!!


Hey…..i’d fly there in a heartbeat!
It would be classic…….


I have to say that this article blind sided me. NEVER in a million years would I have thought these people would even consider suicide.

Is it wrong that it made me happy and hopeful?


Ox Drover

Dear Harold,

It probably is NORMAL for you to feel that way if you’ve had problems with a psychopath. I wouldn’t want to feel that way the rest of my life, but yes, I have wished my P-son would be murdered in prison, or he was dead instead of the girl he killed. I have felt anger, rage, etc. that was above what I thought any human could feel. I’m no longer ashamed of having felt that way, but at the same time, I am glad it is dampened down to a more realistic level of angst!

Twice Betrayed

You know, the only way I agree these people could be suicidal is when they are on death row, no stay and about to be executed. Otherwise, it’s my opinion they always feel there’s a way out! Someone/something to be used and abused. NO WAY in a million years would either of PX’s do themselves in. These people drive YOU to suicide not themselves!

I think it’s natural to feel somewhat elated to think they could consider suicide, as we don’t get any closure with these people, so that could be our only closure. But, moving on past this is healthier…..realizing we don’t need the closure..that’s placing the power in their hands again. Some things do not get closed…we have to just close them and stuff them into abyss of yesterday gone. And…wipe our hands off. Done with that!!!! I am there now and let me tell you, feels SO good!!!

Happy Memorial weekend to you all!
Hugs and love,


Twice Betrayed

Thanks for that, I agree with you, I am so cynical at the thought of a P committing suicide, I think they are totally dedicated to staying alive and driving others (who have the feelings they want but can never have) into a craziness so that they end up so confused, hurt and bewildered suicide is a real option (even an accident in the confusion so easily could happen) yep. I cannot ever see the P end his life when even in solitary confinement, he could manipulate a spider on the wall of his cell….


About 6 years ago, my ex walked in one day, and completely out of the blue STARTED a conversation with ” I know you wish I was dead”. I remember nothing prompting this –no arguing etc , and was just totally baffled.

NOW I realize, that was projection and what HE wanted. Looking back , I am sure the “near accidents” I had were not accidents.

I watch my back now and have police reports about the domestic violence. It is what he would do to our children to get to me that is frightening. He is a sick man with sick friends who are all capable of ANYTHING.

When he was “caught”, he did threaten suicide and was transported by ambulance for treatment. I think the gun was meant for me (as do most of the people who know of this).

He had called and begged me to come over, I sent his buddies who found him with a rifle in his mouth. He had to pretend “suicide” to cover for the loaded gun. At least that is what I believe. He would NEVER kill himself…

Twice Betrayed

bullet: LOL- ….”manipulate a spider on the wall of his cell.” Oh, that’s so funny! I got a really good visual from that. Sort of a dark, sinister Charlotte’s Web. 😛 I try to laugh at these things in a small way, because I can now. I do not mean to minimize their actions in any way. It’s just some comments are so true they are ironically funny!

flower: both of my x’s pulled suicide ‘watches’ for their families benefit and to make a big dramatic show. They are both still alive and perking right along in their predatory ways and [both] well over forty. Nope, these actors only plunge the REAL knife in the other fellow.

Ox Drover

Dear Flower,

WATCH YOUR BACK! I think you are so right on in your intuition. I didn’t listen to my get and that was a mistake, I almost didn’t “get it” in time to escape. Now I LISTEN, I’ve decided I’m a smart cookie and worth listening to when I get a “message” from my gut! Even if I am wrong, better “safe than sorry.”

You’re a smart cookie too. Never let any one “poo poo” your concerns for safety.


Oxy, thanks I do watch my back. He and his buddies are freaks. Always cooking up trouble. I can smell it.

He is oozing charm and desparate to be seen as the nice guy right now…in PUBLIC only ….Still a jerk in emails.I wont speak or go near him.

To counter this, he claims I am “bitter”. I would have good reason since he took all marital assets and is a known adulterer. But the scorned wife routine doesnt fly since most people think he is a jerk.I dont care if anyone thinks I am bitter; I will not play his games.

I have always thought his public smoozing at me was to divert attention from him if I am found by the roadside. I will not play along with this and he cant stand it.

Also he is having a tough time regaining the image that our marriage provided. We live in small conservative town and many people know adultery prompted the divorce. Our town is extremely family oriented, no swinging social cliques or partiers….family activities and children are priority.

The importance of being “friendly” even during the divorce always made me very suspicious of his motives. He is arrogant and verbose, bragging constantly about his money and popularity. So, he doesnt need to appear nice to me for that.

I KNOW this is a cover so he would not be suspected as being a threat. His suicide attempt in our small town was seen as an attempt to harm me…

Thank God I wasnt there. He IS a threat and will be treated like one to his face and when I am alone..I will stay safe.


When spath and I separated the first time before I got sick and mommy dearest let him know against my wishes…..i sent him an email telling him I wished he would get eaten by a shark.
(among other niceties).
He grasped onto that one statement and threw it back at me over and over and over……saying, you want me dead…..each time I would say……..I want you eaten by a shark……the end result is NOT up to me!
YES……I wouldn’t shed a tear….I would know my kids wouldn’t ever be harmed by him again….me aswell.
When we separated again…months later….before going NC……he said to me on the phone one day….he was on the roof shoveling snow and he sat on the edge of roof contemplating jumping……
What a stupid statement you idiot…..the roof was only 2 stories, and the snow was deep……WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SAYING…..
He said….he wanted to ‘do himself in’….’end it all’……I suggested he find a taller building.
What a pity party……and I did NOT want to be invited to that.
I thought, are you friggen kidding me…….YOU want to die…….I’m the friggen one with major health problems and YOU being your dick self, raising the kids and trying to survive it all…….and YOU make this stupid statement you want to jump off roof into the friggen snow????? Better make sure the neighbors don’t see ya acting stupid!

Attention, attention, attention…..

I wanted to comment to Flower about the small conservative town…….
I live in one too…..and girl…..I was SHOCKED at what goes on here……and WHO’s going on amongst it……..
The family may be the daytime activities…..but girl…..I learned NEVER to discount anything or anyones activities…..
I found people I would NEVER suspect doing things I never knew existed outside of movies…..
Check out swingers sites on the web…’ll find your town…..check out swingers ‘dating’ websites…’ll find your librarian on it (or someone similar), Check out craigslist men searching for men……you’ll see your neighbors husband on there……pictures and all… if no one is looking……
I had gf’s who suggested I do these searches…..and it just blew me out of the water!!!!!!!

At this point……with ALL I have seen, lived and heard of……there is just NOTHING I woulnd’t believe anymore.


Erin, next time he contacts you remind him he is the walking dead. Never alive, constantly searching on the outside of himself for what will make him feel something/anything. It’s always that pathetic plead, help me, help me, help me. They’re like the Dorothy’s of the world … never comprehending “there’s no place like home, there’s no place like home, click those heels 2 times … to figure out … look inside your self dummies … home IS YOU!

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