By | July 8, 2011 328 Comments

Sociopaths, stress and physical sickness

Editor’s note: The Lovefraud reader who posts as “Shocknawe” posted information in a comment about the physical condition of adrenal fatigue. I invited him to write a full blog post on the topic. Please remember that Lovefraud is not a medical resource, and if you are suffering from symptoms like those discussed below you should consult a doctor.

How to recover from adrenal fatigue

By Shocknawe

As victims of psycho/sociopaths, we know all too well the damage inflicted upon us. But I discovered that the toll taken has an additional component one that, left untreated, can set our progress towards recovery back by months and even years. The good news, however, is that we can take some simple steps to speed our recovery and take control of our lives again.

First, some background on my situation. I married a sociopath. It hurts even to write those words. Among her many deceits, one was that she was an expert on holistic health specifically diet. Since I’d revealed early on that I was into an organic lifestyle, she created her “expertise” on the spot and sold me as an authority on the subject. Her form of gas-lighting took the form of convincing me that everything I thought I knew about the body was wrong and that she and only she was capable of bringing about a state of perfect health.

So no surprise that by the time she was done with me, my health had already suffered to a visible extent (friends were commenting on how ghastly I looked). The shock of discovery triggered in me a cascading series of health-related problems that incapacitated me for some time.

The following list of symptoms of victims of sociopathic predation is not mine, but rather an outline of behaviors generally regarded as common:

  • Emotional paralysis
  • PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder)
  • Suicidal thoughts or actions
  • Loss of interest in life
  • Loss of energy
  • Insomnia
  • Dizziness
  • Anxiety
  • Depression or severe depression
  • Numbing of feelings
  • Disinterest in having a relationship (platonic or sexual)
  • Panic attacks
  • Irritability
  • Increased anxiety from being alone
  • Increased anxiety from being in crowds
  • Mood swings

I experienced all the above symptoms. I ate one half teaspoon of peanut butter, and barely kept that down. I drank copious amounts of water and hardly slept for five weeks. That led to a collapse of my immune system and I was hospitalized for pneumonia, had three surgeries on my eye for a fully detached retina brought on, the doctors said, by stress. I lost 25 pounds and I was lean to begin with. I was prescribed antidepressants.

Once I started climbing out of the acute depression stage I set about trying to diagnose my symptoms and begin building my strength back. My first stop was to my old Chinese acupuncturist, whom I’d stopped seeing when I put myself in the sure hands of my ”˜loving’ wife. After examination he said, “You need to go immediately to the grocery store and buy a steak; you’re in the first stages of renal failure and could experience a heart attack at any hour.”

Renal failure, or kidney failure, is defined as a medical condition in which the kidneys fail to adequately filter toxins and waste products from the blood. I had become anemic (low red blood cell count) in large part because I hadn’t touched red meat in three years and had entrusted my dietary regimen to the ”˜expert’ over my better judgment.

Now I had something productive to focus on and I began looking into both Western and Eastern approaches to the morphology of kidney disease and “disharmony.” I soon discovered that many of the symptoms I experienced were a result of the huge amounts of cortisol and adrenaline I’d expended in the first weeks of my “shock and awe.”

Meanwhile, as I was reading up on PTSD, depression, and of course, sociopathy, I found that I’d begun craving pasta and sweets of all sorts. Given my depressed state, I gave in to anything that provided even a temporary respite from my pain, and I’d indulged my cravings as often as I cared to which became daily. I don’t drink or take drugs, but I’ve always had a sweet tooth, so I figured, “What’s the harm?” I soon found out.

My research revealed that my adrenal glands, which sit atop our kidneys, were exhausted, and had undoubtedly been struggling for years under the (unconscious) stress of living with a sociopath. Adrenal fatigue, or Non-Addison’s hypoadrenia, is caused by prolonged or severe stress or trauma. The adrenal glands produce the glucocorticoid hormones cortisone, cortisol, aldosterone, androstenedione, adrenaline, norepinephrine and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA). Adrenaline, DHEA, cortisol and norepinephrine are the body’s four major stress hormones. Imbalances in their production can cause or worsen carbohydrate intolerance. Repeated stresses, no matter what their cause, make a person more prone to adrenal fatigue. The effects of stress are cumulative, even when the stressors are quite different. Here are some of the examples of life events that can lead to adrenal fatigue:

  • Unrelieved pressure or frequent crises at work and/ or home
  • Any severe emotional trauma
  • Death of a close friend or family member
  • Major surgery with incomplete recovery or subsequent persistent fatigue
  • Prolonged or repeated respiratory infections
  • Serious burns including severe sunburn
  • Prolonged lack of sleep
  • Head trauma
  • Job loss
  • Sudden change in financial status
  • Relocation without support of friends or family
  • Repeated or overwhelming chemical exposure (including alcohol and drug abuse)

In addition to the emotional and physical traumas that can produce hypoadrenia, there are chronic conditions or lifestyles that continually drain the adrenals or prevent them from recuperating properly after a trauma. One of the most common chronic factors is poor diet. For example, 62% of North Americans don’t eat even one vegetable per day. Fast foods don’t have the necessary nutrients we need, and if you’re eating mostly processed foods you can be sure your adrenal glands are not getting the nutrients they need to function optimally under normal circumstances, never mind responding sufficiently in a crisis. Adrenal fatigue is becoming much more common as our society assumes long work hours and high stress levels as a normal part of life. Over-eating carbohydrates, especially simple sugars and refined starches, is itself a cause of adrenal stress and fatigue and can only exacerbate the condition.

Since I was anemic and needed to eat red meat, I chose to start with the Atkins diet. The Atkins diet begins with a radical departure from the normal balanced meal: total elimination of all carbohydrates for two weeks — including even complex carbs like vegetables. This gives the adrenals a ”˜breather’, taking pressure off them so they can begin the process of recovery. I also recommend Adrenal Fatigue The 21st Century Stress Syndrome, by James L. Wilson, ND, DC, PhD., which outlines the causes, types and symptoms of adrenal fatigue and offers comprehensive approaches to functional restoration.

An adrenal fatigue diet of lower carbs and the elimination of all other stimulants is critical in order to allow the adrenal glands to rest and recover. The extreme demands placed on the body during times of stress require nothing less than total dedication to healthy nutrition. The following is a list of recommended nutrients to assist in adrenal support and recovery:

  • High quality (preferably a whole food) multivitamin/ mineral complex
  • Vitamin B Complex  — 100 mg with additional Pantothenic acid (B5) twice daily
  • Vitamin C — 4,000 – 10,000 mg daily
  • Raw liver extract
  • Coenzyme A
  • Coenzyme Q10
  • Magnesium — at bedtime
  • L-Tyrosine — at bedtime
  • Vitamin B12 — sublingual at bedtime
  • Zinc lozenges
  • Astragalus — if taking tincture, use a non-alcohol base brand
  • Aswaganda — if taking tincture, use a non-alcohol base brand
  • Milk thistle
  • Siberian ginseng

Here are more tips:

  • Get adequate protein in your diet. If possible, red meat should be grass fed, antibiotic and hormone-free your adrenals don’t need to be battling those substances while trying to regain their health. Fried foods should be avoided. Consume plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables especially leafy greens.
  • Stay away from sweets, alcohol and tobacco, which put tremendous stress on the adrenals and are addictive. Avoid coffee even decaffeinated coffee as it’s toxic to the adrenal glands.
  • If your blood pressure is low, increase your intake of salt Himalayan or sea salt is best.
  • Exercise as much as possible, in whatever form will get you active the most.
  • And finally, remove as many stressful people and situations from your life as you can; yoga and meditation can greatly help mitigate the stresses you are forced to cope with and add to your peace of mind.

As the body goes, so goes the mind; or: garbage in, garbage out. If you want to give yourself the best chance of recovery from the awful ravages of sociopathic abuse, you owe it to yourself to restore your adrenals and nurture your health as best you can.


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Ox Drover

Dear Shocknawe and Donna,

Thanks for this article concerning the damage that STRESS, especially high stress and continual stress does to our bodies and our immune systems.

In September of 2007 when I was extremely ill with Rocky Mountaiin Spotted Fever (a tick-borne illness) even though it is quite serious and has a 7% fatality rate even in those people who are treated (20% fatality in those not treated) my physician was CONVINCED that I had something else horrible, like cancer because I was SO SICK. He was right, I had the effects of cumulative high STRESS. I was weak, I had that skin color often associated with people with cancer or some other serious wasting disease.

As a retired health care professional I totally agree with Schocknawe that taking care of ourselves is extremely important. Stress destroys our immune system making us susceptible to infections and decreases our mental ability to focus so leads to a greater likelyhood of accidents and serious mistakes.

Check out the Holmes and Rahe stress scale

Decreasing ALL unnecessary stress is very important in recovering from stress over load….change=stress, so if you are able to decrease changes, especially major changes in your life, like job changes, school changes, etc. do so. Unfortunately, breaking up with a psychopath itself is a MAJOR STRESS in and of itself and may include other stresses like moving, job changes, etc. that are unavoidable. So even small stresses that you can avoid will be beneficial to your recovery.

Taking care of your physical, nutritional, spiritual, and emotional health, as well as adequate sleep and rest are extremely important.


Thanks Shockwave: so very important for us to realize we need to take care of ourselves during these difficult days. It is absolutely essential to our well being….

My gift to you all this day:


Twice Betrayed

Having realized and almost died from adrenal exhaustion/fatigue, brought on by a lifetime of living with P’s, I know/researched first hand this info several years ago. I had quit sugar even before I had a life threatening episode. It was Christmas, my younger daughter invited me to her home along with my friend. They had ALL kinds of exotic home baked sweets/breads etc. I was depressed from the divorce and with their coaxing gorged myself on the ‘death’ foods. 24 hours later, I was almost in a coma from sugar waste and wheat death to my gut. I was diagnosed Celiac and of course, sugar is an immune depressant/adrenal stressor. I basically POISONED myself! It took me six months to just be able to get up enough to eat/go to the bathroom. I had no family to care for me, as my kids just do not care and abandoned me. I had one loyal friend [male] that moved into my barn apt and literally cooked/fed and cared for me the whole time. I was left alone during the day and many times almost could not make it to the kitchen for food and water. I ate mostly chicken. I’ve tried everything years later and still felt/feel badly some days. I eat totally organic and have for several years. Now, one thing I’ve learned and this is: RED meat is essential!!!!!!!! I’ve got a source of grass fed beef now and thank God I am able to eat it daily! I’ve been doing this for about a month and my health is RAPIDLY improving! I am sleeping better and have energy!

*one thing I do take exception with; some types of exercise. While mild aerobic exercise[nice slow walk] is healthy, calming and stress relieving, any exercise that pushes us into the ‘stress zone’ will cause adrenal stress and the body does not know physical stress VS emotional stress and will react, setting us back. The key is: if you can carry on a normal conversation [in your exercise] w/o breaking for air, you are in the safe zone. Beyond that, you are stressing.

Thank you for this article, it certainly validated and reinforced my research and experience.

Ox Drover

“the body does not know physical stress VS emotional stress and will react,”

Also, TB I’d like to mention that the body doesn’t know “good” stress from “bad” stress….like winning the lotto vs. going bankrupt. STRESS=STRESS=STRESS.

We need a minimum of “stress” to function, but stress overload can literally kill….I’ve seen both domestic and wild animals die from it, literally “scared to death.”

Which is one reason I focus so much of my “preaching” here on SELF CARE and taking care of ourselves FIRST. NO contact helps us do that and helps us keep the stress level as low as possible. Contact ramps up the stress hormones into the danger zone again.

The basics of good food, good rest, good exercise, and good thinking as outlined in this article are NECESSARY to our healing, and without them we can’t do it.

Ox Drover

Here’s a good link to measuring stress and relieving stress from webmd

Twice Betrayed

Ox: “We need a minimum of “stress” to function, but stress overload can literally kill”.I’ve seen both domestic and wild animals die from it, literally “scared to death.”

I’ve seen this too, Ox. Very true.


Wow, I did the test and scored 320!

Ox Drover

Candy and TB there are few of us here that won’t score “over the top” on stress due to the interaction with psychopaths.

That is why we must take control over our own lives, over our own selves….and to focus on HEALING OURSELVES. Even if you have kids, you have to put yourself first because if you are not healthy, how can you take care of them?

I’ve asked myself over and over if I will ever totally recover from the effects of total stress over load? I actually think we never totally do, but we can sure enough IMPROVE our lives, our thinking, our emotions and our bodies.


Ox – thanks. You are right. We must focus on healing ourselves. Well, as you know, I had a wobble the other day. I’m back on track now.

Twice Betrayed

Ox-yeah, we do need to put our healing at the top of the list. It’s survival at the utmost. My older daughter keeps in contact and wants to meet several times a month to shop/eat. I know she misses me or something. I’m due to shop tomorrow/eat lunch with her. She has written me a long letter checking on me and making certain I have tomorrow with her. But, to tell the truth, I don’t want to go. It makes me feel badly for several days because her extreme bossiness and trash talking my younger daughter with all that hate and inducing worry in me over my GD by pushing my buttons, makes me not want to go. Yet, she guilts me by always keeping in contact and reaching out. Everything in me wants to cancel but my conscience and it says: “This is your daughter…..”

Twice Betrayed

*I should add when she ‘reaches out’ it’s verbal only and only when she has time. She discounts all I’ve been thru and demeans my health concerns as ‘just you stressing yourself’ over my younger daughter, GD and her behavior. She does not acknowledge all I’ve been thru with my X’s and certainly not with her behavior. All this weighs heavily to the forefront of my mind. While I have forgiven her, I don’t really forget and the hurt and wounds remain somewhat open in the back of my mind/heart. This will always be, I fear, unless she changes or addresses these issues. Actually, when my kids deserted me at the worst time of my life and show they care nothing for me but some verbal smoke…I really cannot say I feel like I can ever respond or feel the same about them again.

Ox Drover

“There is no fanatic like a covert” is a phrase I have heard repeatedly throughout my life.

I have become a FANATIC about taking care of myself. I quit smoking, finally. I started to eat right and exercise right and have tried to maintain a LOW STRESS life style…eliminating people and things in my life that increase my stress. It is a FULL TIME job I know, and I admire those of you here who have children and jobs to add to the stresses of your life and don’t have to luxuary that I do of being retired. With retirement comes poverty, which is a stress as well, LOL, but at least I do have the basic needs, shelter, food and so on and while I don’t have a lot of extras as far as disposable dollars, I have all I need and most of what I want.

In addition to those physical blessings, I have a spiritual and emotional calm that I am aware of that I have probably never had before. Keeping the human stress out of my life by going NC with those who would use and abuse me, and realizing that I CANNOT change or help them has made my life much more calm and me more content. It is a goal that I think we can all strive for. VALIDATING ourselves and the importance that we have, our needs, opinions and our lives makes it possible to live in a low stress manner. A healthy manner. It has taken me a long time to get to this point, and there were tiimes I thought I never would….you can do it Candy. Just put the important things first and the rest will follow.


Twice – You have the RIGHT to refuse WITHOUT feeling guilty. (it took me a very lonnnnnnng time to ‘get’ that)

That is YOUR RIGHT. Now I know it tugs at the heart strings but why put yourself through this torment? What’s in it for YOU?

IF you feel you MUST go then limit your time to say….coffee ie 15 mins. Why does it have to be lunch? Because she says so?!

Maybe you could go somewhere where you do not have to ‘talk’ like the cinema. You could meet and then wave goodbye in the cinema carpark.

My feeling is, that she is not missing you, but she’s keeping you hooked because she knows that keeps you bonded to her.
She is only staying in touch on HER terms.

Switch it, make it on your terms.

Ox Drover

TB…..that “guilts me” is the answer. STOP IT!!!! BONINK!!!!!!

That “guilting” is the answer….you, and only you can STOP feeling guilty for NOT wanting to put yourself iinto the company of someone who hurts you.

You know IN ADVANCE that she is going to be stressful, and only YOU CAN STOP IT…e mail her and CANCEL….just tell her you “don’t feel up to it.:” That is not a lie, you dont’ FEEL UP TO IT.

The fact that you gave birth to her does NOT GIVE HER THE RIGHT TO GIVE YOU GRIEF. My egg donor and my biological offspring do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO HURT ME and I will NOT allow it. I do NOT feel guilty about protecting myself.

You are NOT a VICTIM, if you go, you are a VOLUNTEER if you go, you are ALLOWING her to hurt you. STOP IT!!!!!

If I can do it, and if Gemini can do it, YOU CAN DO IT. Your kids are no better than ours are….they have no more love for you than ours do for us. Just because you gave birth to them does not make them the kind of adults that you should allow to abuse you mentally, or emotionally, or any other way.

Cancel. Take your phone off the hook. Stay home and do something nice for yourself. This is what I have been PREACHING TO YOU FOR HOW MANY YEARS NOW! PREACHING TO MYSELF? You know I’m right! You deserve better than that.

When you feel stronger, then you can set some boundaries with her if you WANT to see her….”Sally, it upsets me when you trash talk your sister and GD, so I will go to lunch with you, but WE WILL NOT TALK ABOUT YOUR SISTER OR THE GD. NOT ONE WORD. If you agree to that, then I will do lunch with you, and we will talk about anything in the world EXCEPT your sister etc.”

I set that boundary with my “drama queen” wife of my friend, I will go to lunch with her but the boundary is she will NOT TRASH TALK HER HUSBAND TO ME…..I’ve had to call her down a time or two, but I can actually spend a ocuple of hours in her presence without being stressed because I make her respect my boundaries.

You know I love you, but baby you have got to take control of what you let, what you ALLOW, your kids to do to you. (((Hugs))) and my prayers for you! Love Oxy

Twice Betrayed

Ox: BONINK! LOLOLOLOLOL! Yeah, I know you are right. I’m really torn up. I love my kids so much and they have absolutely broken my heart. My PX’s and all their insanity is mild compared to the heartbreak over my kids. I don’t know, maybe I expect just too much.
OK, going to cancel by email. I know she will be upset and verbally very concerned, but cannot help it-just all juiced out.

Candy: I usually visit with my daughter in the company of my friend, which limits her ability to manipulate. Then I make my way out of the situation gracefully and with less stress.

Thank you both for your encouragement and for your good skillet slap, Ox. Much needed.

Hugs and love back to you, OX! ⤠Thanks for the prayers, please keep me in your prayers, Oxy. I will do the same.


Is this “oldest daughter” that wants to hang out with you the same daughter that had an affair with your husband?


Twice – yahoooooooo. You took back your power. Now DO NOT feel guilty about it. Ouch! I bet that boink really hurt! That Ox is a tough cookie.

Twice Betrayed

KatyDid: yes, it is the same daughter.

candy: LOL! You are right, Ox swings a tough skillet! LOLOLOL! Woke me up, though! AHAHAHAHA!


Was she young? Seduced? MF’d by an spath?

I can’t blame my daughter for falling for the same psycho stuff my husband did to me. SHe was just a wee thing when he came into our lives and she was completely vulnerable.

But if your daughter was in her 30’s or older whe she got involved, that’s a different story. Children can not be accountable for adults doing stuff to them, adult children ARE accountable, not blamed but accountable.

Ox Drover

Well, guys, glad to do it, anytime you need a BOINK I will be there with my trusty iron skillet! In fact, I just got finished washing my dishes and am sitting down for a bit of a break. Husband’s grandkids coming for Monday-Wednesday, haven’t seen them in 2 years so anxious to see them. Got to get off my lazy butt and clean house, do laundry and cook ahead for while they are here. With son D gone I have been very lazy and spent too much time on LF and reading. In fact, got 3 new books in today! I need to BOINK MYSELF for ordering 3 more new books when I have 3 ft. of shelf space with ones I have ordered and not read yet. I’m a book-a-holic!

Just too darned hot to get outside and do much though….was 107 degrees in Ft.Smith yesterday and well over 100 here. Has been 90+ every day for 7 weeks now, and many days 98+ and quite a few over 100 and little rain after spring flooding.

I’m glad you are canceling TB….I KNOW it hurts, because we do love them. But we can’t make them into the adults we WISH they were….our BABIES are not around any more….and we loved those babies with all our hearts but they have morphed into adults we do not like….I know son C is not a psychopath but he is an arsehole that I cannot trust, and I do not like.

Since he has been gone and I have been essentially NC with him for 18 months now, when I do per chance run into him like I did a while back at the auction, he is ALL SWEETNESS AND LIGHT and it is TEMPTING to be “friends” again, but I KNOW it is a losing situation. Last time I saw him I was “cordial” and spoke to him, “chatted” a few moments and really it didn’t stress me out too much….son D mentioned casually when he asked “what we were doing” and that we’d bought a new hot water heater. Son C almost INSISTED that he would come over after work and help install it…KEPT ON INSISTING….but I casually and firmly said “Nah, we’ve got it, but thanks.” The thing is back to the I DO NOT WANT TO OWE HIM FOR ANYTHING GOOD DEED….plus, I do not intend to be at his beck and call no matter what kind of trouble he gets himself into.

People who do you “favors” expect “favors” in return…well…you know what, I am responsible for myself, take care of myself and ONLY THOSE I TRUST ARE MY TRUE FRIENDS are those I will accept favors from. With people you cannot trust, “favors” and “gifts’ are down payments on control and guilt.

Candy is right TB, you TOOK BACK YOUR POWER over your own life, over who is allowed to interact with you and HOW.

Do you remember a couple of years ago, I think it was the summer of 2008 in fact, when I caught my “friend” stealing from me again…..stealing something that if she had ASKED FOR I would ahve cheerfully given to her, but she STOLE IT. I was so upset at “embarrassing her” that I CRIED FOR DAYS! LOL

I was worried about how SHE FELT…to hell with how I felt! To hell with how SHE had violated my trust and STOLEN AGAIN! After I had “forgiven her” and “restored trust” in her.

But that was what prompted me, goaded me as it were, into LEARNING TO SET BOUNDARIES with her. I asked her and her husband to leave the farm, and not to come back unless they CALLED FIRST….and I LOCKED UP EVERY GATE AND DOOR ON THE PLACE. Even then I caught her trying to SNEAK BACK when she thought I would be gone…so I UPPED THE ANTE and very NICELY but firmly told her from now on to CALL 24 HOURS IN ADVANCE BEFORE SHE CAME BACK…and then my son and I moved all the crap they had left here down to the “warehouse” and they had a key, so there was no reason for them to ever come back here to “get anything of theirs.”

Well, they moved on from here, and mooched off of his retarded brother and his mother, then another friend, and I heard the other day that after 25 years of marriage and being together that they are divorced and both are homeless and destitute. They have both run out of friends to mooch off of or relatives either.

But their “friendship” And violation of boundaries FORCED me to ACT or get stepped on again and again. Without them I might never have learned to set boundaries for people who were “friends” or “family.” It hurt, Because I loved them, TB, I truly did, but they never loved me, they took advantage of my good nature, my caring and my willingness to share what I have. It didn’t “cost” me anything to let them park their RV out here, there’;s plenty of room, but you know what, they were so feeling ENTITLED that they somehow thought THEY HAD THE DEED and I was the intruder. But that’s the way that kind of person thinks. They feel entitled to push you around and they think you won’t push back. But I finally grew a back bone and learned to set the boundaries. YOU CAN TOO.

Believe me, TB, when you have firm boundaries and you realize that YOU DESERVE TO BE TREATED WELL—and truly BELIEVE IT yourself, life is much much better even without these STRANGERS who you thought were friends.

YOU ARE STRONGER THAN YOU KNOW! And Life can be better than ever before when we don’t have that STRESS in our lives. ((((hugs))) and You know I always pray for you! Love Oxy

Ox Drover


Your daughter may have fallen for the stuff your X did to you, but she is an ADULT NOW and she knows, or should know, that treating you like dirt is NOT OKAY. She should be accountable for her behavior NOW, regardless of how she fell for his stuff when she was little. She shows DISRESPECT and disregard for you as a person. THAT IS NOW and she would not treat someone she liked like she treats you.

Twice Betrayed

KatyDid: In the beginning, yes, she was 15. She was influenced by him, no doubt. But, she’s always been a VERY jealous female. The sexual games continued thru the whole marriage, I’m certain, because I’ve seen her do some pretty off the wall things to attract his sexual attention right up to the month I left him four years ago. I’m also fairly certain they continued the affair right thru our marriage, as by her/his comments/behavior. Her ‘inviting’ him to stay at her house several times over the years while he was doing work for her at her homes. Stalking him on a job site then later calling me and telling me “how hot he looked and fine he was”. Once when we went to Florida [she lived there] to get our things out of storage and help her move because I did not want her pulling a trailer behind her car all the way west!, he and she went off by themselves to ‘retrieve’ my furniture while I was with our little girl. All this while she was visibly NOT wearing undergarments. I felt they were just ‘acting out’ for attention over the years as they both did that in front of everyone and vied for attention from ALL people. But, my younger daughter suspected it too after she got older and when I left my X [her dad], she confronted him with it and he admitted it. Then my older daughter created all these scenes, [after I left my X] to make certain he was in the picture, then ratted on him that he tried to kiss/seduce her, which may or may not be true, he’s capable of it and she’s capable of lying and doing it too, I believe. I was carefully excluded from the family events [not told or places switched so I did not know when/where the BDay party etc was}. All done to throw the guilt on him and off her. Bait and switch. I strongly suspect she is STILL in contact with him! He calls my son and I KNOW from what she indicates/hints she is still in contact with him and I fear takes all my business back to him. This is what gives me a really bad feeling this gal of mine is against me, really. She has seriously mixed feelings for everyone. Love/hate feelings on everything and everyone.

Twice Betrayed

Oxy: What a wonderful post!!!!!!! You moved me to tears saying you always pray for me!!!!! That’s what I covet the most! I KNOW and BELIEVE God answers prayers!!!!! THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart!

I am sorry you have been used and taken advantage of [for] being a kind and giving person! But, you are an angel to many of us-an angel with a strong iron skillet, LOL-which is needed many times to bring us into the reality of WHAT these people are regardless of WHO they are.

Thank you also for your kind and strong words of encouragement! It’s wonderful to interact with an encourager!!!!!! Hugs and love to you, Oxy!

Ox Drover

TB, ANY woman who would treat you this way, even if the “affair” did start when she was 15 is DELIBERATELY undermining you and you can bet your bippy she is taking your business to him….and frankly to me she SOUNDS LIKE A PSYCHOPATH, because no NORMAL PERSON WOULD TREAT THEIR MOTHER THIS WAY…or anyone this way for sure.

TB I know it is hard to fathom that the baby girl you loved has now morphed into this hateful using and abusing person, but she has.

You have said so yourself…there is no reason on earth for you to feel GUILTY for being NC with someone like this. NO REASON AT ALL. I don’t feel guilty for being NC with my P son Patrick…the SOB tried to have me killed for goodness sake. I don’t feel guilty for being NC with my egg donor, she is sending him money KNOWING THAT HE TRIED TO HAVE ME KILLED….and lying to me about it. I don’t feel guilty for being NC with son C….he LIED TO ME OVER AND OVER….he betrayed me, he “took my business to” the ones who were trying to kill me. He “chose” his “friend” the TH-P over me, he chose his “brother” over me even though he KNEW they were trying to run me out of my home that I built with my own hands.

TB, we deserve to be treated with respect by anyone…regardless of who they are…whether we gave birth to them or they gave birth to us, NOTHING gives them the right to jerk our heads off and schit in our necks. And that is just exactly what your kids have done and my kids have done. Enough is enough! It is time we DECLARED OUR INDEPENDENCE OF PSYCHOPATHS. P-FREE FOREVER!!!!! (((HUGS)))

Twice Betrayed

Ox: I have always wanted your opinion of this situation. I am so glad you commented! Thank you for your help and answer!!!!!! I agree, I fear both my girls are P’s and am not certain about my son. He is VERY selfish, so may be just an N. Wow…never thought I would say ‘just an a N’.

Oxy: I am so sorry about your kids and what all they did to you! I do think mine would not mind if I died, so they could get my money/home. Seriously. My younger daughter tried to take part of my home money when I left her dad! She called his attorney and said the home was in the corporation name and she was an officer. She wanted 1/3 of the money even though I would be homeless!!!!!!! Didn’t work. My PX had transferred it all into our names recently. So, I got to buy him out with help from a friend, NOT family!

My kids are awful! I love them, but I don’t like them at all!!!!!!!!!

Hugs, Ox!


yes I do think your girls are psychopaths and cutting them out of your life with NC would be appropriate. You gave it your best, you’ve done all and more than can be expected of you. Furthermore, by continuing to behave as though they can still have a relationship with you despite how they’ve treated you and showing no genuine remorse for it, you are encouraging their behavior.

This is what I can’t get through to my parents.
They continue to give shelter to my p-brother, despite what a horrible creature he is. And they continue to treat my p-sis with love and attention despite knowing that she would like to see me dead so that there is one less person to inherit. They think that by continuing to be kind to the P’s, they will learn to emulate better behavior. IT’S JUST THE OPPOSITE. They learn that the “weak” parents continue to cave in no matter what they do. They laugh behind our backs.

I went there yesterday and my p-brother said, “Hi, How are you doing?” I just kept walking, eyes straight ahead. He said, “oh, so you’re not talking to me, ok.” I will never acknowledge him again. It’s not that I didn’t love him, I did love him so much, but he isn’t worthy of my love, so I have to remove it. And more than that, the spaths consider our love as a weakness in us that they love to use and feed off of.

I’ve come to see them as addicts and us as enablers. They are addicted to our emotions. That’s why your P-daughter calls you up for occasional outings. She needs to feed on your emotions. That’s why you feel drained after each encounter. I’ll bet she feels more powerful after each encounter. They aren’t called emotional vampires for nothing.


Yes Oxy,
That was going to be my next point with TB, depending on her answer. Kids, not responsible, ADULT kids YES are responsible.

A kid is not responsible for being manipulated and mf’d by an spath as a kid. A 15 yr old can be a jerk, and I understand how the big teen drama thing gets played out, but they don’t understand the big picture. A 15 yr old is NOT to be blamed. She has NO legal control. I would have agreed she needed councelling, sounds like there were issues, but at 15 yrs, what was going on was NOT normal household relationships, had to have been crazy making NO boundries life, esp with an spath husband. She did not have ADULT jealousy b/c she was not an adult. She was obviously acting out but surely you don’t blame her for what happened at 15? Surely you got her into counselling help? I mean, if we don’t blame ADULT OW here on lovefraud for their choices, surely we don’t blame hormonal teenage girls right???

However, now that it is years later, AN ADULT kid IS responsible for how she treats mom. YOU get to be the adult and put those boundries on her. LOTs of support here on LF for asserting HEALTHY boundries.

Two different issues depending on the age of the kid. That’s all I’m sayin….


Just my very humble opinion, but I wonder that your daughter wasn’t so much as jealous of you but sounds like she was jealous of HIM. Coming between you was a very juvenille but typical way that girls behave in order to try to get their mom back.

She might be spath now, but that behavior back then, is VERY typical. That she had TWO spath dads in her life, my lord but my heart breaks for the mind fs of her childhood. IF you think it was hard on you, think of the vulnerability of her as a child.

Does NOT excuse her as an adult. If you weren’t able to get her counselling when she was a kid, it’s her job to get it as an adult.

Twice Betrayed

KatyDid: I did not know about the affair with my X at the time. So, no, I did not get her counseling. I was a divorced mom working and going to college and she and her two year younger brother were with me. We had our own home and SHE was running things!!!! She got mad as all get out when this guy entered my life and HATED me for having another person in my life despite the fact she was almost 16 and was gone a lot of the time in school/social activities. This guy tried to put his foot down on her treatment of me and she turned into a roaring lion. NOBODY was going to usurp her teen power!!!!!! She took my clothes he bought me and wore them, pulled all kinds of scenes on him and my son. She hated me and most likely still does for marrying. She goes after her sister’s husband, right down to some pretty revealing behavior towards her own brother. NO, I never saw any misappropriate behavior from my X husband towards her till way into the marriage and even then it was all mostly from her towards him that I saw. Listen, I assure you, this girl was a hormonal teen, no doubt, but she is EXACTLY THE SAME now as then and she is almost 40 years old! She has been to counseling many times since then and is no different. To tell the truth I’ve been scared of her at times around my little GD. I’ve seen her be nice and then turn and be vicious towards her to the point I removed her from her presence. [she can’t have children, yet claims to love them]. She was VICIOUS to my younger daughter growing up, in one way, yet very giving of clothes and toys etc to her in another. She has always had mixed emotions/behavior. She would trash my X hub, yet team with him against me every chance she got. Listen, when it comes to manipulating, my X and my daughter were/are masters at it. A tit for a tat. I had my daughter when I was 18, which put me at barely 33 and hub was younger than me [which I did not know till later-he looked older than me] which you figure I was a young mom and she told me she always hated me for it. Said her friends commented on me and she thought I should be like Aunt Bee on Mayberry instead of a younger mom. Those were her words. Yeah, I got snowed all the way ’round and felt like a dumb ass for years and am just now digging my way outta that syndrome.

Ox Drover


I hold every adult ACCOUNTABLE for their behavior…OW/M or not. It is a choice. I don’t know anyone who thinks it is OK and a good moral choice to have an affair with a married person. It is still a CHOICE (unless you don’t know they are married).

I do not, however, assign “blame”—accountability, yes, blame, no.

While I was in thrall to my psychopaths I did things that I chose to do to try to please them that I should not have done. I hold myself accountable for doing those things, and I understand WHY I did them, but I am still accountable and responsible for doing them.

I have chosen to hold my P son accountable for what he is and what he did and does….I have chosen to hold my son C accountable and responsible for the things he has CHOSEN to do…for example, he lied to me….and the boundary was NO LIES. Period. The boundary was KEEP YOUR AGREEMENTS. Period. He lied, he broke the agreement, so all bets are off. I do not want him in my life any more. I don’t hate him, doesn’t make him a psychopath but he is ACCOUNTABLE.

During the time he was in thrall to his brother and the TH-P and his P wife, he did some pretty UNDERHANDED AND DISHONEST AND HATEFUL THINGS to me…I hold him accountable even though he was enthralled to the Ps and was duped by them, none-the-less, he is responsible for doing those things.

I forgave him and I restored my trust in him, and he BROKE MY TRUST AGAIN…by the lie and breaking the agreement to live here….so now I do NOT TRUST HIM, and the consequence of his behavior, his choice is that he will NOT EVER have a relationship with me again, and I will NEVER AGAIN TRUST HIM.

I used to be pretty “forgiving” and restoring trust at the least bit of signs of “repentence” but NO MORE. TRUST IS EARNED, and if it is ever broken it is VERY HARD TO RE-EARN IT. IT IS AN UPHILL PULL FOR SURE. My son C is not strong enough to ever make that up hill pull because he has broken my trust so many times, betrayed me to the psychopaths so many times, that he has used up every chance with me. His recent offer to come over after work and help D install the water heater is not something I will allow him to do. LOL

Katy, you have more “empathy” for TB’s daughter that had the affair with her step father and continues a relationship with him now than I do. She may have had a difficult childhood, but she KNEW WHEN SHE DID IT that it was wrong, and she knows it NOW, so she is ACCOUNTABLE in my book for her behavior NOW. Just like not every child who was beaten and abused as a child grows up to beat and abuse others….being abused as a child is not a pass for adult behavior. We are still accountable.

Twice Betrayed

KatyDid: I let her P dad out of child support so he would not ruin the lives of my two kids by him. She was not raised around him since she was two years old. She has no memory of him. While she had no father, she had a very caring/loving mom and my family, including her uncle/my brother were devoted to her. She wanted for nothing, except a dad. I know that’s important and I do not downplay that at all! But, many children do just fine w/o a parent. I mean, it’s not Leave it to Beaver, but very few families are! I do feel for her and love her very much and understood and cut her slack as a teen. I forgive her for the teen stuff, but what about all the way to now doing me in? When does the bucket set on its own bottom and become responsible for its own behavior? I would say doing this, even to now, is questionable.


Twice Betrayed:

Oh, I really feel for you. Sigh. To be honest, I just don’t know what I would do in your situation, but going NC sounds like the best way to go because if not, you will be continually hurt and I don’t want to see that. Yeah, I can see that even at 15, your daughter knew what she was doing…sorry! And plus, the way you said she has never changed…they way she acts now is the way she acted then. I wish I could do something to make it better 🙁


NO Oxy,
I do not have empathy for TB’s daughter NOW. I don’t even really have that much empathy for her at 15. Maybe I misunderstood and her birth dad was NOT spath? I have empathy for her daughter as a child. ANd only as a child.

As an adult, she’s totally responsible for herself. I had a wonderful therapist who helped me get away from my husband, the first person who believed me and told me I was not crazy. I joked with her once that her job was to put herself out of business and she quipped back, it wouldn’t happen b/c she had the NEXT generation to counsel.

For myself, the idea that I was responsible for MYSELF as an adult was the most liberating, most empowering, most desired outcome that got me through some terrible childhood years. So for kids who blame their parents, I say they are WAY off base. By turning 18, EVERY choice they make after that is ALL THEIRS.

That TB’s daughter is 40!!and still pulling this crap, I am so sorry but as YOU know Oxy, I recommend NC with that daughter b/c it is that boundry that I live with my own. If my daughter has an epiphany one day and comes to me with true contrition and holding herself accountable for her ADULT behavior, I would give her a chance to prove herself. But I will NOT allow my adult daughter access to transfer HER pain onto me. I don’t deserve it and SHE does NOT heal her own pain by doing so.

TB I am not saying to not have contact with your daughter. I am saying if it was me, and she was still pulling this crap at nearly 40, I’d be totally NC. Sorry so sorry for your pain.

ps TB, I thought you were talking about her being a 19yr old NOW and thought you ought to cut her some slack until she had more time with counselling. That she is much older, no, I think you’ve been carrying that heavy leaky bucket for 22 years too long.

Twice Betrayed

I want to make it very clear, my daughter did NOT have a hard/difficult childhood! She had it great! My son was happy and we all lived together with me being mom/dad. I had NO man in my life till I married again at her age of 15. My son is two years younger and has no problems of this sort. He remembers a wonderful, fun filled childhood. I mean my kids never even walked home from the bus stop! I didn’t even go to work or college till they were up in their teens. I had money my dad left me and I stayed at home and raised them till then. They had so many activities going on, I became lonesome and had the misfortune of meeting my X, who was NOWHERE nearly as bad as he became!


Twice – whatever happened in the past cannot be changed. You are living in the here and now. And right HERE and NOW this woman of 40 is causing you great distress and anxiety (regardless of whether she is a spath or not)

Maybe each time you see her it triggers that time of YOUR life and the pain and hurt you were going through.

We cannot undo what has been done, and we cannot change other people. As is often said on here, the only thing that we can do, is control the way that we react.

Twice Betrayed

Thanks everybody! I’m done for the day, wrung out. I blamed myself and beat myself over the head for years for all the mistakes I made in my life. I did the best I could for my kids, if it’s not good enough, believe me, I’ve repented for everything I’ve done and not done. I gave my ALL. ALL I had to give I gave, did it for the second one and she had dad,mom and the whole ball of wax nearly. And here she is [after she hit 19, before then was a perfect teen/kid] cold, calculating, distant and indifferent to me, when she’s not in contact and browbeating me into submission. I felt guilty for leaving my first PX so I stuck it out with the second PX for my kid/for that very reason. Sure, I got conned by two P’s masking as great hubs/fathers. Yeah, I’m guilty of being a naive fool, but hey, I’ve done it both ways, left and got blamed for that, stuck it out and blamed for that. Either way, I lose.


Twice Betrayed:

I really feel for you. I am sad that you are worn out. Get some rest this evening. I will be here later if you want to come back and talk.

Ox Drover

TB, If she was pulling that crap by age 15, I thinnk she was in the line of my P son, who started doing that crap about that age too, and though I was divorced when the two boys were young gradeschool, they did not have a “bad life” either….I wasn’t sure at what age you divorced her father…or how long between when you divorced her father and married the next P….I think for what it is worth that the genes won out form her P-sperm donor….as for your son….he probably didn’t get quite as big a dose of the genes as your older daughter did….the younger daughter apparently also got a losing hand in the genetic deal as well from your 2nd husband…but you know, no matter what the “environment” was how they behave NOW is strictly up to them, and on their shoulders.

Whether you were a perfect parent or a pith poor one in my estimation does not give them a pass today.

That kid who is called the “barefoot bandit” had a real piece of trash for a mom, but I know other people who have had that “same” piece of trash mom and they turned out okay….so when the chips are down, and the cards are dealt…the bottom line is that EACH OF US is responsible for OUR OWN ADULT BEHAVIOR.

I did the best I could for my kids and TB I think you did too….but how they turned out as adults is on their shoulders. I didn’t have a “loving” Mary Tyler Moore mother either….but I am responsible for how I am and the choices I made. So are my kids and so are yours. Even if they got pith poor genetics….they have the choice to hurt others or not.

My analogy about the genetic “disease” of alcoholism, doesn’t give someone a pass for drinking, it just means their choice may be harder than mine, but they STILL HAVE A CHOICE! So do the psychopaths.


Twice – it seems to me that this whole thing about you having lunch has triggered you BIG time. Now that you have decided not to go to lunch with her you are feeling guilty (right?)

Cut yourself some slack here. You did your best and survived two spaths. You deserve a medal woman. Nite.


I thought my daughter had a great childhood too. But I allow people to have their own FEELINGS. That does NOT give them any permission as adults to treat us like crap. It doesn’t HELP anybody, not even her. I think she sounds more like a spoiled brat kid… who’s had an spath whisper in her ear so long that she believes the lies b/c she uses excuses rather than acts like an adult.

BOUNDRIES for sure, and think about NC?

Twice Betrayed

Ox: I am with you totally! Yes, I worked my arse off providing a secure loving home for my kids from the time I was less than 18 years old myself!!!!! I know you were dealt a lot of sour cards yourself and still overcame~ Hugs to you~

My hat is off to anyone who has raised or is raising teens! They are old enough to know some things and they are not total kids.

Just to myself or anyone in general: I was a kid myself giving and loving my kids. I delayed my education work/life and everything else to raise my kids. I divorced the first hub who is the father of my two older kids, when I was less than 21. He beat me up and broke my nose, knocking me out and I left four months pregnant with our son. I divorced him. He wanted out to party and go to the U. He did. I raised the kids and married again when my daughter was 15 and son 13. They had a good home, life, material needs met, emotional needs met. I was the one who played ball with my son every day during the summer. I did it all. I was there for every sickness need and all. My kids had a great life. All the kids in the neighborhood stayed at my house during the summer and I fed a lot of them. But, my daughter wanted to run it all and my son did not. He played and had fun, she manipulated and bossed. Just the way it was. In her teens she wanted and still wants to be power over everyone who comes in contact with her. Now, I loved her, we were close, but she was bossing me in her teens and still does try to run over me and only when my foot goes down HARD does she back off. Ask her about me and my son about me as a mother and get two totally different opinions. My younger daughter will tell you I am good/kind giving person and that makes me vulnerable and weak. Yet she takes advantage over me too. Did I marry two P’s? Yes, I got duped by both! Did I know they were P’s? Well, of course NOT, that’s not who they show themselves to be in the beginning….that’s why they are P’s! Would I have had kids by them knowing this? Why NO! Would I have subjected my kids to them? WHY NO! I was screwed too! I removed my first two from that and my daughter blamed me all the years until she met the man and she knew I was right and said so! I stayed with the second to raise my kid and she blames me for not leaving, yet she bonds and bands with her father even to the point of being against me! Does it hurt and make me feel awful? Hell yeah, it does! But, am I going to bear the responsibility of ALL of it? NO, I am NOT! Sure, I made mistakes that cost me greatly and were not positive on my kids, but show me one person, who hasn’t. I am not going to blow my brains out over these mistakes. I got fooled/used and abused too. If I don’t hear one person on this earth give me some slack, God does. And I will make it one way or another. I’ve not scratched my way out of my dysfunctional family home into several screwed marriages with P/N kids to show for it to call myself defeated now or ever. I’ve got that much grit and guts and I’m going right on w/o any pats on the back and attaboys.

Love to all!

Twice Betrayed

Candy: I feel kinda swamped with the blog. I feel people still don’t get how these people are BORN this way regardless of how hard you try to give them everything. I feel many don’t understand even perfection doesn’t give them a right behavior.


I can attest to physical ramifications of a relationship with a sociopath, as the “climax” of mine was the x-spath bringing me to the hospital because I had a outbreak of shingles, although I thought it was a reaction to anti-biotics.

Although I was also stressed from an illegal job termination, the x-spath’s Jekyll and Hyde treatment of me was much more on my mind.


I do understand. You were the best mom you could be. For whatever reason, these people are born addicted to drama. They love to see us suffer. That’s why we can’t give them any emotion. Sometimes, NC is the only way to not give them emotion. You have to break them of their addiction to your emotions.

Twice Betrayed

Ox: thank you for your understanding and wisdom. Time and experience teaches us some things.

I am very protective of my motherhood. I sacrificed my life to it.


If you are ignoring me b/c you think I don’t get about kids being born spath, then I am sorry b/c you don’t understand I am dealing with my own child acting spath. I am sorry for your pain and completely empathize. But I did try to get your full story and hope you aren’t blaming me for not having your story which you revealed a little more with each post, which is why I asked you specific questions today.

Twice Betrayed

sky: you are right on! DRAMA, DRAMA, DRAMA…and this older daughter of mine had it going on from twelve on…..exhausting! If she didn’t have it going on, she’d make it up and create trouble to get it going on. Nothing has changed.

Oh wow! You are right! They are addicted to my emotions! Holy cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Twice Betrayed:

I get it… spaths are born.


NC, TB, NC or Gray rock. Give them no emotions, nothing at all.


I don’t think spaths are born. I think they have inherent traits.

An alcoholic isn’t BORN an alkie. They are born with the predisposition towards it. I believe if they NEVER take a drink, they don’t cross the line into alcoholism. They have to take a drink first. But once they do, they are alcoholics forever.

I believe spaths are the same. Once they cross that line and chose to take on certain behaviors, they are spath forever.

I believe if you know that genetically your kid could become an spath, by following help that is given on this website, you can lower the chance that your child crosses over to the dark side. But you’d have to know first, and how many of us got that info in time? 🙁

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