By | July 9, 2011 68 Comments

Psychology Today on how to spot a narcissist

A Lovefraud reader informs us that the current issue of Psychology Today features an article about narcissists—how they behave, and how to detect them. It’s an interesting article, because narcissism is a component of sociopathy. All sociopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are sociopaths.

Read How to spot a narcissist, on

Note: The article quotes the theories of a researcher named Peter Jonason, among others. Lovefraud has written about Jonason’s ideas before—I don’t agree with them. You can read it here:

Psychopaths, silly science and James Bond

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the sisterhood

Dear Donna,
Thank you for posting this article. This is my ex to a T. I still think my ex is perhaps a spath as well. But this article has confirmed that he is, indeed, a toxic and disordered person.

My ex’s father was having sex with my ex’s half sister behind his mother’s back. His half sister was a teenager at the time and my ex was just a young boy. He said his mother would go out food shopping and that he would be downstairs watching T.V. while his father and sister were upstairs having sex. He would be so angry with his mother for taking too long at the grocery store and not coming home in time to catch them.

When my ex was 18, he later found photos in the top of his father’s closet that showed many women nude but no faces showing. (the photo was only of the womens’ bodies) One of those pictures was of his sister. He said he recognized it because of a mole on the leg. I honestly think that is the point that broke him.

I asked him how he could still have anything to do with his father. He gave me two reasons. One, his sister told him to get whatever he could financially from his father for college. Two, he said his father had a funny idea about love.

My ex actually used the word love to describe his father’s behavior.

My ex is extremely concerned about his image. He was nerdy growing up, has a genius I.Q, and is obviously from a dysfunctional family. He spent his latter teenage years building a “cool” image for himself. He is still in that world. He has a successful job and nice family, but he is always trying to be the cool guy.

The many ways he has used and manipulated to get this image is quite frankly disgusting. He had no qualms about stealing, using people for sex, and even slashing a fraternity brother’s tires because he thought the guy was a jerk and deserved it.

One time we were at a restaurant and there were hearing impaired poeple using sign language at the table next to us. He was extremely pissed off about it. At first I though he was just kidding, but he was really angry. I asked him why he was so upset about the sign language and he said it was because he thought they were talking about him.

He cheated on his previous girlfriend with many women just so he could have stories to tell his friends. He slandered me to his friends and family all the while telling me he loved me. He used me for sex, judged and yelled at me constantly and was so cold and cruel with his emotions. His friends would also treat me poorly right in front of him and he woudl do nothing to defend me, but in private would make some excuse.

As I write this, I still can’t believe I actually fell for this tool.

To this day, he honestly believes that I was the controlling one and that I am jealous of him.

I know I went on a bit, but I want to thank you for LoveFraud. your book has been a great resource for me as well as this site.

Ox Drover

Good article, Donna, thanks for posting it. Interestingly enough, my observations with several Ps is that the level of Narcissism (at least apparent narcissism) varies. Both my P sperm donor and my P son are “over the top” in N traits. My X-BF, was also N-is, but less apparent on first or even second meeting. He had more couth about it actually. The following clip from the article describes my P son and my P sperm donor to a “Tee”


In 1984, psychologist Robert Emmons posed the original narcissistic paradox: He noted that narcissists simultaneously devalue others even as they need others’ admiration. Back’s research on narcissism now allows psychologists to resolve this long-standing paradox. It appears that narcissists seek out people who maintain their high positive self-image, at the same time intentionally avoiding and putting down people who may give them a harsh dose of realism. “Seeking admiration is like a drug for narcissists,” notes Back. “In the long run it becomes difficult because others won’t applaud them, so they always have to search for new acquaintances from whom they get the next fix.” This could explain why narcissists so frequently change their social contexts and maintain only weak ties to others.

The “unique copiing mechanisms” mentioned in the following quote from the article, that allow the two of them (my P sperm donor and P son) to put down others who don’t fall for their “charm” and “superiority” is described very well in the following quote from the article. My P son sees himself as a “winner” even though he has not been a successful criminal (he gets caught) and he still views himself as SUPERIOR to non-criminals and people who HAVE lead a successful life. Even though he is in the view of “normal” people nothing but a low-life unsuccessful convict, somehow he can view himself as a BIG SUCCESS.

QUOTE: How can narcissists maintain their inflated self-image even though they know how they are perceived by others? Carlson argues that such people “might think arrogance is a positive trait, like extraversion.” Narcissists may also have unique coping mechanisms that allow them to reframe negative reactions. “They know that in certain situations [such as on first meeting] they are better than others and they use this positive information to generally reinterpret other experiences,” notes Back. Narcissists may conclude that others are just jealous (“haters!”), or just not smart enough to realize how “bitchin'” they really are.

The list from the article of how to spot Narcissists is a good one. It also describes my X-BF who was also a psychopath. Though he didn’t describe his family as “perfect” (quite the opposite actually) The rest of the items from the article describe him perfectly.


Bragging about one’s perfect family (no one’s family is perfect).

Hypergenerosity in public to demonstrate that one has power, but coldness once the camera is off.

Hypersensitive and insecure. This includes imagining criticism where it doesn’t exist and getting depressed by perceived criticism.”Vulnerable” narcissists are self-centered and overly defensive.

Prone to a vast array of negative emotions including depression, anxiety, self-consciousness, and shame owing to not being given their “due.” Such feelings can be an indication of egocentricity and self-absorption.

Repeatedly puts down other people, especially inferiors and strangers. Loves to talk about him or herself and mentions others mainly to name-drop.

Some good information here and well worth the read. Thanks, Donna.


Great article! Thanks Donna.
Another validation.



Wall Street is full of Narcissists. One former manager was particularly so. I would be in his office when I colleague would enter to ask a question. To the person’s face he was friendly and complementary, once the person left his office, immediately backstabbing.

We managed complex technical projects. When something went wrong, his first reaction was not to ask what happened but who to blame.

I was managing one vendor project that had many issues. I kept him informed and continually pleaded for senior management intervention. Even, from day one, I saw major problems with this vendor’s bid, but I was ignored, partly because the vendor’s project team were former employees of the firm, an obvious conflict of interest.

My manager not only ignored me, but continually told senior management all was green. When the project imploded, I was blamed. In one meeting, he told a managing director that he knew nothing of problems with this vendor and behind close doors put the blame totally on me.

Since I now did not have the support of my manager, others used me to shield themselves from their culpability in this project’s problems. All my other successes in the firm, and there were many, were ignored and my career there was ruined.

I became depressed and for the first time in my life needed anti-depressants. During this time I also developed a cardiac condition.

But their actions toward me (and others) were so egregious, I sought legal counsel and realized I had a way to fight back, since it was obvious that once my manager knew I had mental and physical health conditions, he had me by the you know whats.

When they finally illegally terminated me, only days after returning from short-term disability, I was prepared and had been gathering evidence for six months.

They stalled for two years but finally settled. I did get a tax-free sum that many would consider a windfall, but in the grand scheme of Wall Street it is peanuts and not quite what I considered fair, but to be honest I was not in any position to continue the fight in court.

At least I have enough to start a new life and next year, I plan to start a consulting business to help those who have been subject to workplace discrimination, since I was terminated due to health discrimination. My experience in fighting a Wall Street firm is invaluable to those seeking legal action against an employer and there is so much I know that no lawyer will tell a client, including mistakes made by my law firm that compromised my case.

If I can help people get money out of these bastards, that would be very rewarding. Maybe I am a rogue after all…


Thanks for linking the article Donna, it’s very good, IMO.

Oxy, I noticed that line too.
In 1984, psychologist Robert Emmons posed the original narcissistic paradox: He noted that narcissists simultaneously devalue others even as they need others’ admiration. …“Seeking admiration is like a drug for narcissists,” notes Back. “

And it occurred to me that a narcissist does not differentiate between, a sincere complement and a false complement. They don’t really care about what is at the root of the complement as long as they get complemented and admired. That’s why they surround themselves with false friends. To them what is on the surface is what makes something real. It’s not that they can’t comprehend, intellectually, the difference. Of course they can. But it FEELS the same to them, so they get the same high from false admiration as from true admiration. This runs parallel with their ability to believe their own lies while simultaneously knowing that they are lying. All that matters is that there are enough symbols surrounding them, to “prove” that the lie is real.

My spath, when pulling a con, made sure there were plenty of props and true believers surrounding him. That made the lie, real.


I think Narcissistic “admiration” extends to attention as well. They also love to be the center of attention, even when others may view their actions as inappropriate.

Hence the expression “the bride at every wedding and the deceased at every funeral…”


Thanks for sharing this article Donna. There were some very good points. For me, the last sentence resonated the most, “Responsibility is the ability to respond.”

I think for EVERY misstep I have made in life, and esp with my husband, it was because I failed to respond by taking appropriate responsibility. In fact, I turned much of my responsibility over to my husband, which enabled him to twisted my life where he had dominating control.

The ability to respond, that is taking responsibility for our lives, is the central key to taking back control.


Your comment reminded me, I thought my husband was the ONLY person in the world who loved to go to funerals b/c it was a SOCIAL event!



Wow, what a warped person!


I noticed for my husband, while he NEEDED incredible levels of attention, and such attention gave him a high like a drug addict on crack, after a while that person’s attention didn’t give him the same kind of high, so he constantly needed NEW people to give him that high. After a while, even new people wasn’t enough of a high. He needed COMPETING NEW people. Then he needed them competing and physically flighting over him competing new people. It just continued to evolve.

I left him after the needing new women to admire him stage. He didn’t want me to leave, he wanted me to stay and to “understand” that he just wanted their attention but he’d come home to me. I was TOO understanding.


I laugh now b/c it was so ludicrous. But yes, he was the life of the party at funerals. People LOVED it b/c he made them feel good.

Ox Drover

Sky, the “catch 22” for my P-sperm donor was he HAD TO HAVE PUBLICITY and wanted people to admire and envy him, but he so despised others as INFERIOR TO HIM that their admiration was WORTHLESS….yet he craved it. DUH????

He would say in various newspaper interviews that he was the “smartest man on earth, smarter than Einstein” and that other people, compared to him, “were like malicious chimpanzees” and he thought that people would be impressed, when actually they were REPULSED. When he got rich enough that people would toady to him he got even worse, and that was enough to make you puke!

He actually was very smart, probably in the 99th percentile, I don’t doubt that at all, because he self-taught himself a lot of very complex skills and knowledge in several very technical fields, but he had NO emotional intelligence because he was totally self centered, and totally despised others as “inferior” and “worthless.” He never had a friend in the world. He only had victims that hung around for various periods of time. His youngest son, my half sib was the only person I know who actually truly “loved and admired” him, and unfortunately, he’s “just like his father.” I’m not sure what my brother felt for his Sperm donor was actually “love” but more like “belongs to”—like a psychopath may have a pet they are devoted to because it is unconditionally accepting. The two of them seem to have mirrored each other. A mutual admiration society of 2.



The life of the party at funerals, yeah? He was making people feel good when they felt bad at a funeral. Hmmmm.

Ox Drover


he was the life of the party at funerals.

ROTFLMAO SNARK SNARF CHOKE!!!!! LOL Oh, Katy, you are toooooo much! That’s a great one.

the sisterhood

The only thing I disagree with about the article is when it states that Narcissism declines with age. In my opinion, I think it gets worse. Unless you are talking about nearing end of life old age. Then, perhaps, there is some degree of reflection on ones life and maybe a bit of remorse and empathy. But, nah, I don’t think even then. It is too much a part of their makeup. It is their personality.


The Narcissists that I am aware of, 2 in particular, have become severely worse as they have aged. One is 53. The other 54. One is female. One, male. The femail is severly dangerous to one’s psyche and public reputation. She has no problem destroying others, as long as she is being fed praise and getting attention. It is filthy.


In case we need a Confirmation that spaths just don’t get it…..

FB Post from a peer of my kids, on peers wall.
“People make mistakes, but mistakes are good because we all learn from them.”

Spath response…..”HOPE MY X FAMILY DOES!”

Was this a threat? What this denail and projection?

Spoken like a true drug dealing, covertly bi-sexual, thieving, child predatory type whackjob!


your exspath must be my exspath’s twin.

BTW, it was the pity ploy, they do it as a knee jerk reaction, they can’t stop.


oxy said: ‘but he so despised others as INFERIOR TO HIM ‘…oh my, another trait of the n sib. she’s very intelligent also – but i suspect she would feel that others were inferior regardless of their relative intelligence.

i actually have a lot of empathy for my sib (um, not about the above behaviour). I know now that she has been dealing with the effects of chemical injuries for the last decade. She also has some serious emo fragility – don’t know where that came from.

mind you i might have little empathy or sympathy for her if she didn’t carry these burdens. she has always been mean – for as long as i can remember she was mean to people. and quick – she could ferret out someones weakness and exploit it in about 3 minutes flat. this is just something i have always known about her – it’s almost as if that knowledge is innate. i can’t imagine the things she has done to men over her lifetime. oy!

Ox Drover

One, it is sad really that people can be so evil, and they miss the joys of intimacy with others….they miss the contentment we can experience when we are intimate and okay within ourselves. I think they are never satisfied with themselves…no matter how arrogant and self centered they are.

The old joke about eating a chinese dinner and an “hour later you are hungry again” is the way they are about attention I think….they gorge themselves on attention, but it doesn’t “last”—and an hour later they are again seeking more attention.


oxy said: ‘”.they gorge themselves on attention, but it doesn’t “last—”and an hour later they are again seeking more attention. ‘ and this is my n ex – who called the week before last.

and this is a warning for me in how i protect myself as i heal, ‘think they are never satisfied with themselves”no matter how arrogant and self centered they are.’

Ox Drover

Glad you like my quotes One, pleased to be able to say something helpful. 🙂


can’t through the article that begins this thread…maybe i am too tired – but i find that it meanders too much to keep my attention.

one of the first things it says is that n’s have high esteem. hmm, I would have to disagree on that as a general statement. my n ex didn’t seem to have high esteem at all, nor my sib. n sire – probably. all wanting to be admired more than liked – you betcha!

will try to get through the rest of it tomorrow. i am thinking about narcissism since the n ex called. want to look at my sib and sire in more detail also.

Ox Drover

One, I’m not sure if they actually have high self esteem or if they WANT high self esteem and therefore compensate for lack of it by acting like they have it. Catch 22. Sometimes I think o ne way and sometimes the other. Arrogance and a sense of entitlement are not necessarily the same as high self esteem, but I think could be mistaken for it.


OneJoy and Oxy,
I’ve given this a lot of thought about the high vs. low self esteem. The reason it’s so hard to analyze a spath is because we tend to anthropomorphize them. They have neither low nor high self esteem. They have NO self-esteem. When you have either low or high self esteem, it’s still YOUR self esteem. When you have NO self esteem, you BORROW esteem, just like you would borrow a book from the library. WE give them esteem in our own eyes and it appears that they have however much esteem we give them in our perception. They are shallow mirrors that can reflect what you are, as well as, what you desire them to be.

They have neither low nor high self esteem because there’s nothing there. That’s why they are always looking for a madonna wife to keep for show, they ride others’ coat tails, they brown nose authority and they seek attention. They not only have no self-esteem without us, but without attention, they don’t even exist in their own minds. You have to BE before you can have self-esteem. You have to have a SELF before you can have esteem for the self.


my sib doesn’t have good esteem – but she does feel intellectually superior, and more attractive (or sexy or whatever it is) than most people; definitely entitled and arrogant, and more important than others. i think it manifests a bit differently in her than others because of her enviro illnesses. she’d probably be even more insufferable if she didn’t have those challenges. but i hate to see her undermined by the enviro illnesses – i’d feel that way about anyone. 🙁


This is an excellent article, Donna!

Incidentally as I said an earlier post, I don’t believe that “ALL psychopaths are necessarily narcissists.” While there obviously is a great deal of overlap between the two conditions (and some people, like Sam Vaknin, are definitely both), I’m sure Oxy is right when she points out that the level of narcissism can vary considerably from one psychopath to another. I think the “Dark Triad” approach does get one thing right by treating “psychopathy” and “narcissism” as independent personality traits.

This article on narcissism helps to explain why the two are independent. Most personality disorders could be characterized by one or maybe two overriding traits that are the primary “drivers” of the condition. These are the central factors that motivate (or permit) the dysfunctional thinking and behavior. In the case of psychopathy, that central factor is the lack of what we call a “conscience,” which seems to be part of a broader lack of inhibition rooted in a profound emotional deficit. Without a conscience to moderate their behavior, psychopaths can be capable of perpetrating all kinds of antisocial acts—simply because there’s nothing to stop them!

However, this article points out that what drives narcissism much of the time appears to be quite a different factor: a profound insecurity. This certainly explains how people can be narcissistic without being psychopaths. Yet it also brings into question how far “psychopathy” and “narcissism” are compatible with one another. The article described narcissists as

Hypersensitive and insecure. This includes imagining criticism where it doesn’t exist and getting depressed by perceived criticism. “Vulnerable” narcissists are self-centered and overly defensive.

Prone to a vast array of negative emotions including depression, anxiety, self-consciousness, and shame owing to not being given their “due.” Such feelings can be an indication of egocentricity and self-absorption.

Since psychopaths tend to be low in neurotic traits, less fear-driven, and not at all prone (as far as I’m aware) to feelings like “shame,” I must wonder whether the “narcissism” seen in numerous psychopaths might be qualitatively different from the “narcissism” seen in non-psychopaths. Perhaps “narcissistic” psychopaths are just plain self-indulgent.

To put this another way, psychopaths focus on gratifying their own whims and desires at other people’s expense because they have no cause to care about the needs and rights of others. Narcissists can’t spare a thought for the needs and rights of others because they’re too desperately obsessed with bolstering their own egos.

In 1984, psychologist Robert Emmons posed the original narcissistic paradox: He noted that narcissists simultaneously devalue others even as they need others’ admiration. Back’s research on narcissism now allows psychologists to resolve this long-standing paradox. It appears that narcissists seek out people who maintain their high positive self-image, at the same time intentionally avoiding and putting down people who may give them a harsh dose of realism. “Seeking admiration is like a drug for narcissists,” notes Back.

It is a paradox, insofar as the narcissist’s “false front” of arrogance and apparent high self esteem is actually a “defense,” a determined attempt to compensate for and “block out” inner feelings of inadequacy. Narcissists can’t stand anyone who makes them “look bad,” and as they mentioned above, can react angrily even to imagined criticism. That baffles many people who have no idea why a narcissist got angry at them. It also seems certain that “putting others down” helps the narcissist feel better by comparison with others.

The fun-loving narcissist may enjoy widespread networking and dominating a social group not because they want to exploit every person in their path, but simply because they desire the positive reinforcement of others.

This is a key point. Comprehension of abusive people is often distorted by “victim subjectivity.” “Victims” often see what’s done to them from their own point of view, but not from the abuser’s point of view. Among other things this can lead to the fallacy of equating consequence with intention. Some people attribute motives to abusers that are not the abuser’s real (or anyway “main”) motive at all.

For instance, somebody who’s attacked and devalued by a narcissist might feel hurt, suffer a loss of self esteem, and be plagued by feelings of self-doubt that can leave them more vulnerable to the narcissist’s further depredations. Afterwards they may say that the narcissist “meant” to hurt them, “meant” to destroy their self esteem, and pursued a strategy “intended to render them easier to control.” But that’s only maybe. Just because those things were the consequences of what the narcissist did, that doesn’t have to mean that’s what the narcissist intended when doing those things. As for “meaning to hurt” someone, there’s a good chance the narcissist wasn’t thinking one way or the other whether they “hurt” anyone or not! The truly self-absorbed narcissist is concerned only with how well another person is feeding their desire for ego gratification—and only “hits out” at that person for failing to fulfill that function as the narcissist thinks they ought to.

Narcissists seem to believe the whole world revolves around them, or that if it doesn’t, it ought to! If the world fails to do that, narcissists feel shortchanged, and they’re offended! Narcissists tend to see the whole world as an extension of themselves. When someone else acts in a manner contrary to their wishes, narcissists can be just as discombobulated as if their own hand and arm had refused to obey their commands!

I don’t think most psychopaths suffer from that illusion. Psychopaths usually recognize the reality that the rest of the world has its own separate existence, and doesn’t willingly revolve around them. They realize that other people pursue interests of their own, which are often in conflict with those of the psychopath. But psychopaths still feel perfectly entitled to exploit the rest of the world any way they can.

They [narcissists] are enraged when told they aren’t beautiful or brilliant…

Naturally! The world failed to reflect their own preferred image of themselves.

And when narcissists do behave negatively and aggressively, they tend to do so in response to social exclusion.

Again, naturally! They’re being cut off from their desperately needed source of ego gratification—from what Sam Vaknin dubbed “narcissistic supply.”

Narcissism tends to peak in adolescence and decline with age.

This too is no surprise. Adolescence is a time of peak insecurity. Among those who are only mildly narcissistic for this reason, narcissism wanes with maturity and with the increase is genuine, healthy self-confidence that comes with it.

Psychologist Anita Vangelisti of the University of Texas at Austin found that tactics in the narcissists’ toolbox include bragging, refocusing the topic of conversation, making exaggerated hand movements, talking loudly, and showing disinterest by “glazing over” when others speak.

Sure! All of these tactics refocus other people’s attention and conversation on themselves, reflecting how “important” they are, feeding and propping up their hungry, tottering egos. “But that’s enough about me! Now tell me something about ME!”

Because control is so important to narcissists, they can abruptly lose their charm if destabilized or threatened. This two-faced behavior is often the first clue to their true character. They get angry when rejected, overreacting to small slights and punishing those who do not support their grandiose image of themselves.

Yes, challenge and rejection strike to the core of a narcissist’s insecurities. Narcissists typically have to be “always right” about everything. They can’t stand to be put in the wrong.

My one criticism of Anita Vangelisti’s remarks is her emphasis on the notion that narcissistic behavior is geared toward the “one objective” of “maintaining power” in a relationship. While there is some obvious truth in that, I think it’s often overestimated, frequently due to the “victim subjectivity” I mentioned earlier.

The term “power” itself is so broad and vague that it can mean almost anything. For that reason some people are prone to interpret the term wrongly, as if it meant “power over other people purely for the sake of controlling those people.” I think more women (like Vangelisti perhaps) can be prone to doing this because they often “personalize” an issue rather than recognizing the inanimate, even abstract factors that lie behind it. In the interactions Vangelisti discussed, “maintaining power” doesn’t have to be an end in itself. It’s only a means to an end, that “end” being the securing of “narcissistic supply” to feed the narcissist’s ego. And it’s almost certain that narcissists at bottom feel “powerLESS,” which is why they claw so desperately for it.

Two other comments:

The idea that narcissism is a constellation of traits that exists on a continuum, rather than a single, dichotomous label (you are or are not narcissistic), is reflected in plans to jettison the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder in the forthcoming DSM-V, the diagnostic manual for clinicians.

This is true, but it may be muddling two unrelated ideas together. On the one hand it’s entirely reasonable to point out that narcissism exists on a continuum. People in general can only be described as “more narcissistic” or “less so.” That does of course pose the problem of “how narcissistic” they have to be in order to qualify as “personality disordered.” Any answer is bound be somewhat arbitrary. But that’s a problem with every such disorder. For instance, “how deficient in conscience” must anyone be to qualify as a psychopath? So that problem in itself is not a justification for jettisoning the concept of “narcissistic personality disorder.”

On the other hand this paragraph speaks of narcissism being a “constellation” of traits. The notion of multiple traits is a totally separate idea from that of a continuum. In part this seems to suggest that with all these multiple traits on top of the “continuum” problem, the whole business of “narcissism” is just too complicated to categorize. So the DSM committee has thrown up its hands in despair, saying “let’s do away with the whole thing.” But as I think the article shows, “narcissism” in the pathological sense is not just any old collection of unrelated traits. On the contrary, it’s a set of traits that can result together in a consistent fashion from a reasonably well understood theoretical cause. I personally believe it’s a mistake for the APA to discard the diagnosis of NPD.

But if I had one major criticism, it’s that the scope of the article could have been wider.

…since more men are interested in short-term flings, narcissistic women don’t tend to bother men as much as narcissistic men frustrate women.

I’d say that’s far from true. It struck me after I’d read it that the article, while it’s thorough enough in exploring the psyche of the narcissist, is limited in its discussion of how narcissists impact life at large. Apart from vague references to “social circles”—like cocktail parties perhaps?—the article’s scope is almost entirely restricted to the topic of mate selection and related matters like sex. Even the very framework of the remark I quoted is all about how people are bothered by narcissists of the opposite sex! As if narcissists didn’t pose a problem to people of the same sex as well, in contexts of every kind!

The article says nothing about broader issues, public issues like narcissists in the workplace or in politics, or personal issues like narcissists in marriage or in the family. Narcissists can wreak havoc in all of these roles. Strangely, despite all this talk of romance and “relationships,” the words “husband,” “wife,” or “marriage” do not occur anywhere in the article. As for the comment I quoted, I’m sure multitudes of men who were NOT looking for “short-term flings” have been far more than just “bothered” by finding themselves married to a narcissistic woman. Especially one who exploits a man, then “devalues and discards” him, taking his children and his money with her. Children are a captive source of narcissistic supply to a narcissistic parent. And multitudes of children have been damaged in childhood by the “care” of a narcissistic mother or father.

So if the article helps people to avoid marrying one, that’s a much-needed public service.


sky – do you think it is the same for narcs and spaths?

Ox Drover

Dear Redwald,

As always a thoughtful and well presented article on the article. 🙂

I think too there are INTENTIONAL things that N’s do to put others down, and there are things that are UN-INTENTIONAL. For example, the N that eats the last piece of cake, knowing you haven’t had any, but just not even stopping to realize that it would be right and just that since they have had 4 pieces they save the last one for you. Versus, the N who having had 4 pieces and being unable to eat the last piece, drops it on the floor intentionally so that YOU ARE DEPRIVED FROM HAVING ANY.

Then there are the Ns that are so intent on ATTENTION, and have little idea that negative attention may be the result, but willing to do ANYTHING for attention, for example the “Octomom” who I think really thought she was the cat’s meow with the attention, but now with 14 kids and the negative attention, plus the responsibility for those kids, two of whom are handicapped in some way, said the other day that she “despises” the babies and the older 6 are monsters because she has not been able to give them enough attention to train them.

If that woman is not an N seeking attention I am not sure who one would nominate for the role. There are positive ways an N can seek attention—in sports, politics, and other careers–that are more socially acceptable and less likely to get negative attention. I also don’t think her doctor thought he would lose his license for his part in the conceiving of the liter of children either.

the sisterhood

Redwald- Thank you for that very in-depth explanation of the article. I still don’t agree that narcissism decreases with age. My father has only gotten worse with his and my ex doesn’t seem to be slowing down either. I think that they are just better able to hide it as they age. They learn more about social norms and acceptable outward behavior and, therefore, are able to mask their disorder better.

The other area I’m not sure I’m clear about is when you say, “This is a key point. Comprehension of abusive people is often distorted by “victim subjectivity.” “Victims” often see what’s done to them from their own point of view, but not from the abuser’s point of view. Among other things this can lead to the fallacy of equating consequence with intention. Some people attribute motives to abusers that are not the abuser’s real (or anyway “main”) motive at all.”

I agree that my ex didn’t set out to intentionally hurt me in the beginning, but there were times in our relationship that I feel he was purposefully sadistic towards me. It is kind of a gray area because I know I was just an avenue for him to get the admiration from his friends. They were his main supply. I was a tool he used and therefore, my feelings were of little regard to him. But when he was angry with me, his mistreatment was directed at me and his intention was to hurt me. The reason behind his intention was to save face. But nevertheless, he intended to hurt me.


One Joy,
that is a great question and after reading Redwalds article, I would say yes, it applies equally. I think psychopathy is just a form of malignant narcissism. I disagree with Redwald that p’s don’t suffer from an illusion. They all suffer from the same inability to see the world from any perspective that does not revolve around them. It is IMPERITIVE that all of their extensions see them as the center of the universe.

What most people cannot grasp is the AMAZING ability of an entitled n or p to reel US into believing what they believe. NONE of us wants to admit that we are vulnerable to a narcissist, EVEN WHEN WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

Your sister seems to be extraordinarily intelligent to you and probably many others. It is her own belief that creates that.

When I go shopping, my BF has mentioned that I act extrememly entitled. That’s one place that my narcissism takes the lead, which I was not aware of, until he pointed it out. I almost always get what I want when I believe that I will. BF is a narcissist, in my opinion worse than me, but not when he’s shopping. And he never gets the good deals or the better price, like I do. It is a human trait, to be able to convince others of what you believe, JUST BY THE POWER OF YOUR BELIEF THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED. I’m not encouraging this in anyone here, I think it’s kind of disgusting, but at the same time, I’ll acknowledge that it’s true.

BTW, P’s always set out to harm, and I think they know this, but I’m not sure that it applies in every case.


I am going to agree with you. “P’s ALWAYS set out to HARM”. Furthermore, I AM SURE it applies in every case and I will explain why I think so.

Spaths (p’s) are adversarial. THEY MUST WIN. That is their PRIME directive. Therefore, there MUST be a loser. Spaths NEVER do win/win b/c if the other person “wins”, to a spath mindset, that is the same as A LOSS against them and spaths do not let a loss stand. Therefore, in order to “WIN”, an spath (p) MUST make the other a LOSER or create some kind of harm to guarantee “loss”. It does not do any good to “give in” b/c If an spath is NOT a clear winner, they up the ante until they are clearly “WINNING!”.

Redwald wrote a lenthy response and I won’t review it with the depth that Redwald gives us, but I do have two minor notes regarding Redwald’s review.

Anytime the name Sam Valkin is used, to me it’s like waving a flag in front of a bull. It’s only fair that Redwald knows how Sam’s behavior undermines Redwalds authority. Since I am unable to assess Valkin’s influence on Redwald, just Sam’s name is enough to cause me to question the motive and validity of Redwald’s comments. Goes without saying, but I say it anyway for clarification: I don’t speak for anyone else.

And secondly, Redwald remarks re: those who are mildly narcissistic, that their narcissism peaks in adolescents and wanes with maturity. I think this correlates with NORMAL narcissism in teens and all that hormonal logic that says me me me. So that kind of narcissism is not the TRUE punitive narcissism that drives victims to seek relief here on LF. To lump normal narcissism in with toxic narcissism clouds the issue for me.


Redwald – thank you. A very interesting article.

Having read this through several times—..I agree. I do not think that he meant to hurt me. He was always shocked (if that’s possible) that he had hurt me. It was as if he did not understand that by doing this or that, I would be offended.

One thing he did loath was for me to be displeased with him. He was always seeking my approval (which I put down to low self esteem) It was important to him that I praised his efforts (even when the things that he did were stupid) For example, he tried to paint a small wall but a two year old could have done a better job! Then he stands back and smiles waiting for my approval. Same thing with cutting the grass ”“ it was a complete mess, but he would be so chuffed with himself. Again it would be ’look what I’ve done ”“ thank me’ Same thing with cooking dinner. There would be mess everywhere, up the walls, on the cooker, on the floor and again he would want praise. I would think WTF.

I believe he was insecure. His ego needed boosting all the time. And yes, he did imagine criticism where none was intended. Weird! He would always be ready with a response to justify a criticism that was never made!

Prone to a vast array of negative emotions including depression, anxiety, self-consciousness, and shame owing to not being given their “due.”

He would portray ’shame’ but I’m not sure that he actually felt shame. He would mimic disgust for instance about child abuse, be very defensive and say such people should be punished severely. Then I found out that he was a child abuser! He did not offer any remorse for the things he’d done.

’To put this another way, psychopaths focus on gratifying their own whims and desires at other people’s expense because they have no cause to care about the needs and rights of others’

This sentence is spot on.

’narcissists seek out people who maintain their high positive self-image, at the same time intentionally avoiding and putting down people who may give them a harsh dose of realism’
I saw this regularly. He would only seek people who could be useful to him. Others were discarded.

’It is a paradox, insofar as the narcissist’s “false front” of arrogance and apparent high self esteem is actually a “defense,” a determined attempt to compensate for and “block out” inner feelings of inadequacy’

Yep. I agree with this statement.

’Narcissists can’t stand anyone who makes them “look bad,” and as they mentioned above, can react angrily even to imagined criticism’

Anyone that made him look bad would ’pay’

’Narcissists seem to believe the whole world revolves around them, or that if it doesn’t, it ought to!

’Narcissism tends to peak in adolescence and decline with age’
I disagree with this statement. My spath has increased in his traits as he’s got older. He seems to be desperately fighting to hook in more people than ever before. Like an addict, it’s like the ’hit’ he’s getting is no longer fulfilling his needs so he’s lurching through life trying to find that golden goal.

’tactics in the narcissists’ toolbox include bragging, refocusing the topic of conversation, making exaggerated hand movements, talking loudly, and showing disinterest by “glazing over” when others speak’

Oh yes, he always had to be the centre of attention. He would almost jump out of his chair, if the conversation were not relating to him. Cut across a conversation, butt in, and refocus the conversation about HIM.

“But that’s enough about me! Now tell me something about ME!” This is a classic sentence.

’They get angry when rejected, overreacting to small slights and punishing those who do not support their grandiose image of themselves’

Over reacting is an understatement!

’Narcissists typically have to be “always right” about everything’ (((LMAO)))


Hi Sisterhood,

Yes, pretty much anything they say about personality disorders is bound to be a generalization. There are always exceptions. Some of it depends on who’s doing the surveys as well! So regrettably there’s nothing unexpected about your father and your ex getting worse instead of better with age. Some people always will.


Redwald – I agree about the questions which are asked.

For instance I may ask someone ‘do you prefer the colour blue or red?’

This only gives the person the option of two answers. It does not make any reference (or give the person a chance) to express their preference for say…

I do feel that our perceptions, upbringing, expectations, pain thresholds, past experiences etc have a great bearing on how we experience a spath too.

The bottom line is that we were all sucked in to their fantasy and we were damaged as a result.


I think it is hard to tell if someone is a narcissist or psychopath if they are covert. The experience I had was that the overt signs of narcissist weren’t visible but lying underneath the exterior. I really didn’t see any vulnerability in him until the very end of our marriage and I don’t know if it was an act.

There is a book called “The Psychopathic Test” by Jon Ronson (not sure if I got that right, read the book yesterday in the book store) but it was REALLY interesting. He interviews Bob Hare and the author is engaging and funny. Ronson starts to see psychopathic traits (on the Hare checklist) in himself and so many others. The checklist needs to be administered by a professional and one who is trained properly.

Another interesting fact in the book was made by the person who started making the lists and catagorizing disorders in the first DSM manual. It was only 60 some pages long and was made by a bunch of psychologists in a room shouting out names of maladies and naming them with a disorder. He talked about disorder names that didn’t make the book and how we over diagnose and treat (especially supposed bi-polar in children) when we don’t need to.

I didn’t buy this book (it’s hard cover and $28) but I read the whole thing and would recommend it. When it comes out in softcover I would get it.

Who really knows how to put narcissism or sociopathy in a defineable box. We know most of the traits and we know they are toxic. I think all they do is to protect themselves at any cost and we are simply collateral damage. It has helped me with my recovery to know that there are other people here who have met up with the same sort of toxic person (or usually persons) who can share with and give advice.

The therapists and professionals can’t even decide what’s what. Some of the early treatment methods for psychopaths were really experimental, one doctor gave them LSD and put them all in the same room. He actually thought he was making progress with them. After the psychopaths were released from prison and the treatment program, 80% went on to re-offend and I think the rest just didn’t get caught.

I’m digressing from the topic but there is so much I want to say and don’t quite know how to piece it together. To sum up, they are bad people, simply bad and we need to stay away from them forever!


Is this ‘evil’ born or is it inspired?
What triggers it?
What could possibly make a human being emotionless and this sick and evil?

I think that is the question all of us would love to have answered. We will not sit down and hush up and go away, no matter how much the ‘IT’ would love us too. Perhaps there are no answers to my questions. It seems the more I learn and educate myself, the deeper that rabbit hole goes, without really there ever being a definitive answer or explanation. I guess I really don’t care as long as I am not forced, through my own affections, to live within that nightmare anymore.

Dealing with and living with the extreme betrayal I think is the hardest part. It’s that part that makes my soul weep within. To know that you weren’t even worth the truth. THAT is how important you have been.

There is no other way to define nor explain what the aftermath has been like for me. It has been like being locked into almost five years of pure shock and disbelief. It was more horrible than anyone could imagine and there are a lot of things I have shared with no one as yet. Horrible, demeaning, ugly things.

For me, so far, on this journey, for me, I have found taking care of my health to be of primary importance. Eating right; resting right; getting myself on some kind of schedule and sticking to it. I have found myself ‘hermitizing’ and that’s not a bad thing. It saves a lot of added confusion and bewilderment until I get this thing figured out completely in my mind.

I have been trying to focus on myself more.
If we don’t take care of ourselves, who is going to?

I have been trying to eat healthy; not drink alcohol (although I am a firm believer that a glass of red wine once in a while keeps the ticker cleaned out and makes me feel better!)

Maybe there are no answers for WHY they are like they are.
I guess it really doesn’t matter as long as it’s away from me.
It had better stay away from me or I will take steps to MAKE it stay away from me and so far, NC from “IT” since 10JUN. That is a great thing.

Maybe there just aren’t any answers and why should we care?
We should care about ourselves and be good to ourselves and not allow this nightmare to perpetuate inside of us any more. As I appropriately told “IT” in my farewell speech: “Turn the page…”

That is what this experience deserves: to become history. So far removed from the memory that it only inspires us into action and that which is just, right and honorable. Grab a hold of all that bad and turn it around and send it back out as good. That is the way that “WE” become justified and solidified.

Happy Sunday Everyone…



Hey there Duped!

How’s it going? I’m glad that you are focused on “taking care of yourself” – of course that’s what we all need to do! I too live like a “hermit” for the most part, and the solitary lifestyle will probably always have a strong appeal for me. I only have two or three intimate friends, but somehow that is more than enough….

That said, be careful not to overdo it, and don’t neglect going out to visit your kids and granddaughter on a regular basis. Sometimes “getting out of the house” might sound like too much of a hassle – but that’s usually when we need it most! In any case, a modest amount of human contact will often do more to improve one’s outlook than an afternoon spent with the therapist! (Especially for those of us who happen to be saddled with a hypersensitive constitution! -haha)

With love and best wishes,


Ox Drover

Dear Hope4joy,

I meant to answer your post and we lost electric power for a couple of hours so I decided to go take a nap! I wrote down the name of that book and though I have way too many still unread books on my “to read” shelf I will keep it and when I get down to a reasonable amount of unread books order it. Maybe by then it will be available in paper back.

How are you doing? Well I hope. ((((hugs))) Oxy


Constantine: mwahh! xxoo Hi. I am doing alright; what about you? Yes, we NEED to focus on taking care of ourselves unless we just want to completely throw ourselves into the fire; hmmm? Yes, I know how you feel: solitary lifestyle….I don’t even have two or three intimate friends anymore. I have my family and that is MORE than plenty for me. 🙂 They are a light in my life. They always have been and I have been blessed with warm, loving, kind, and sensitive children.

Trying to not overdo it. 🙂 THAT is a task. hehehe
I get out enough. I do the things I absolutely have to do but no more. I can’t stand being in that tank of sharks. 😉

lol: “a modest amount of human contact”; ahahahahahaha
That is very funny for an agoraphobic to hear. 🙂 How ‘modest’ is ‘modest’? 🙂 hahahahaha

I tell the kids all the time if people don’t get off my case, I am going to run away from home and go to Vegas and become a showgirl. 🙂 hahahaha

My love and best of wishes and prayers are with you my Friend. It’s nice to read you. I am doing alright today. In fact, not having all that drama from “IT” in my life anymore is so liberating. Truly. Two medical appointments this week for the ticker. We’ll see what it brings.




I was just thinking today about how in general I lead a very lonely life. Now that I don’t work full time (left that job behind to get away from X spath and the OW), I don’t have that everyday interaction with work people. I do have a part time job, but it’s only a couple times per month at least for now in the summer. I have family, but they are 400 miles away. I do have some good friends here, but they are either married or dating. Soooo, when I am home, I am alone and that is a lot of the time. I do get out and meet friends for lunch, dinner, go to church every week, exercise, but I go to bed alone and wake up alone. I have been doing OK, but still have had a past few days that have been sad. I am struggling with hot flashes in beyond 90 degree weather and it is draining me. I have been feeling down just thinking about how I meant nothing at all to the X spath. I still think about him so much and I know I never even cross his mind so I try to do anything to stop thinking about it and it just isn’t working. I know I have gone through this before on here and months keep passing by and I still end up feeling like I am basically in the same place. I find myself replacing sex with food. I am still far from overweight, but I have gained six pounds since I left my job 11 months ago. I try to exercise enough to offset it. Most of the time I eat pretty healthy, but sometimes I binge. And the next day I will restrict calories again to balance things out. I know it’s not the healthiest thing to do, but anyway.

I am glad you are doing OK! I hope your medical appointments go OK this week…keep us posted.



Are you here? I think you were going to give me ways to deal with my anger when you have the time…thanks!


Right; I understand. I was laid off from my long time position just about four years ago now and then was put on medical disability and then had my breakdown and heart attack. Oh yes, that ‘interaction’ with people at work. I don’t have any of that now. But I don’t miss it. Not really. This is the first time in my life that I have actually been able just to be responsible for myself. 🙂 Since the age of 18 years old, when I first became a mother, I have always been a mother. If you know what I mean. 🙂

Yes, I am alone 99.9% of the time. Unless I pump myself up real good and step out of my safe zone. 🙂

I am sorry you have had a past couple of sad days, Louise. KEEP YOURSELF COOL! Have you tried drinking soy milk for your hot flashes? I have not had any problem with change of life, having gone through it a long time ago, after hysterectomy. But I have had friends tell me that soy milk really helps them.

Louise, Dear Louise, you simply must realize what a wonderful, giving, caring person you are. You need to ignore that evilness and find some happiness in this life. It sounds to me like you are doing way better than I am! At least you are getting out and among other people. I still can’t bring myself to do it. I have absolutely NO DESIRE to associate with anyone. I know that is not normal but maybe, in a way, it’s more normal than one would think. 😉

It takes a long time to work through this Louise. I have been trapped in this for just about five years. This past New Years Eve, I made a conscious decision to eradicate this from my life in the New Year and that I was not going to spend one more moment with this garbage in my life; that I deserved better and even more so NOW since I have limited time on this earth.

I have gained something like 20 lbs in the past two months of NC. Prior to that, I went from 130 lbs to 98 lbs in about a years time (when the stress and pressure from dealing with “IT” was at peak). Since I have gotten rid of “IT”, I have been resting, eating healthy, taking care of myself, etc. Which is something I was not doing.

BINGE: yum! I love binge eating. hahahaha
I feel that is what I have been doing since “IT” left my sight!
Eat, eat, eat….but, I don’t binge, 24/7….I binge 3 squares and 3 healthy squares: vegetables, fruit, meat. Sometimes if I am feeling particularily low on energy, a vitamin water or beverage. For being as old as I am, other than my heart, I am in relatively good physical condition. I exercise and take care of myself and that is why I was so astounded when I almost died!
They told me the majority of it was from stress. How sad is that? My hair went all gray in the time I was associated with “IT”. hahahahaha

I will hope and pray for you Louise. Just remember that you are better than being tortured over this the rest of your life. “IT” just isn’t worth it. Put it in perspective, Lovey, and make peace with the truths….They are blood sucking vampires and they aren’t going to change. We can put up with it and be miserable or we can rebuke it and live in peace.

Thanks for the medical appointment wishes, Louise…xxoo
Yah, getting closer to a pacemaker, I think. I should know more this next week.

Have a good night; focus on YOU for a while.




I am getting ready to go walk/jog in a bit. It is so hot here I have to wait as late in the evening as possible when it is a little cooler.

Thank you. I really haven’t tried soy milk. I drink almond milk and coconut milk, but haven’t tried soy. I have read of all the benefits of soy so I should try it. I just had another hot flash just awhile ago.

I apparently am suffering from depression. I do all these things in my life, but am not finding any satisfaction. It makes me feel sad for you that you are alone also and don’t get out, but if you are truly OK with that what can I say? I don’t think there is anything at all wrong with that as long as YOU feel peace with it.

I went down to a size 0-2 when I was at work dealing with everything. I still fit into those size clothes after gaining six pounds, but they are a bit tight now. Menopause is definitely putting the pounds on. These hot flashes just make me feel so horrible. I had always heard about them of course, but didn’t realize they could make a woman feel so bad.

I’m glad to hear you have gained some weight and that you binge on healthy foods. I do not binge on healthy foods unfortunately.

I know I am better off without “IT” in my life, I really do. I just have to get past the fantasy. I can only chalk up my feelings to being depressed and having PTSD or PTED.

I hope you don’t have to get a pacemaker! 🙁

Thanks again soooo much for talking to me.


Oh hi Louise: walking is a great exercise. I do it often as I can. I just hate going out. Used to walk all over town and leave the wheels in the garage. I still work out though. A little less since my heart attack. Yum: coconut milk. 🙂 I love it. Unfortunately, it’s too yummy for me! 🙂

Depression….poor Louise. I know how that feels.
Not finding any satisfaction; I completely relate.

Aw, don’t be sad that I am alone. It’s actually refreshing. 🙂
There are times when I wished I had someone to talk with but hey, at least I escaped with my life and somewhat of a mind; right? At least I haven’t disappeared and ended up buried out in the desert, or something like that. We have to remember to count our blessings too, while we are weighing out things. Sometimes we forget all the good things we really DO still have.

Oh heavens, I lost so much weight during this ordeal, they actually thought I was going to die there, for a while, before my heart attack. I just wasn’t in a very good way at all and it was all from the pressure and stress dealing with “IT” put on me. I kept asking “IT” to leave me be; to be nice but nope; none of that happened. In fact, it only gave “IT” glee to see me suffering and hurting and once I realized THAT, I forbid it around me any longer.

Yes, Louise, we ARE better off without “IT” in our life.
I guess I must be fortunate in the sense that “IT” tried to kill me because that sort of burst that fantasy dream bubble for me.

I probably will have to get a pacemaker sooner or later.
I have irregular heartbeat now and sometimes it just gets so bad. I never know when to dial 911 and when not to! I sure don’t want to be making all these ‘false runs’ to the hospital all the time.

There has not been ONE DAY that has gone by in the past 2 months of NC from me (his last attempt to talk to me was around the first week of June, for which he received no response) that I have NOT thanked the Heavens above for the peace and quiet around my life now. Not one day have I not been grateful. Yes, it’s incredibly difficult ‘letting go’. I know how difficult it is. It is even more difficult when the one you care for is a sick person and you know it and yet you have no other alternative but to ‘let go’ because if you don’t, they will suck your life force from you all over again.

I know what that heartbreak is all about. I almost gave my life for this “IT”; this horrid, unspeakable “THING” that I stupidly believed was anything close to being a ‘best friend’.

Aw, shucks, Louise, why wouldn’t I talk to you? You don’t have to thank me for that! Thank YOU for talking with ME!!! —
You are a wonderful loving person and I only wish the very best for you. If I could take some of your heartache and make it mine, I would do that for you. xxoo

Think about it Louise…they really aren’t worth it; are they?





No, they are NOT worth it! I just watched the Jaycee Dugard interview and realized if she is not bitter after what she went through, how can I be bitter? It was a huge inspiration for me.

Yes, we do need to be thankful for all the good things we do have and I have many. I really do.

You are fortunate in the sense that you were able to finally get to the point to see how horrible your IT was. I talked about that before on here how I was dumped in the fantasy phase and it’s hard to let go, but I am getting closer and closer. You know what I am afraid of though? I am afraid that as soon as I get there, he is going to contact me. I pray all the time that does not happen.

I had people worried about me also because I had gotten so thin. That’s all I ever heard from everyone is how skinny I was. I didn’t think so. I was just in really good shape actually, but not mentally. It’s funny how gaining only six pounds can make me look not as thin. Of course, to me it feels like 20…hahaha!

I am determined to make this coming week better than the last. Take care, DUPED x


Dear Louise: I watched PART of Jaycee’s interview. How terrible what that poor girl has been through! That animal that did all that to her deserves to be right where he is – even MORE! What he has taken from her is unspeakable. My heart is with her always.

Yes, we do need to be thankful for all the good things we DO have. I count my blessings, every day, that I was not flat out murdered by this demon and that I am still here.

I suppose I am fortunate in the sense that I finally figured “IT” out. I would have been a lot more fortunate if I just had never ‘fell’ for all the lies, webs and deceptions. I would have been more fortunate if I just had never met “IT” in the first place!

Dumped in the ‘fantasy stage’; hmm? Unfortunately, my ‘fantasy stage’ was brought to an abrupt halt when I realized that yes, “IT” actually tried to murder me! My ‘fantasy’ finally wore off right in the midst of thinking that I actually meant something to “IT”. I meant absolutely NOTHING to it other than another person to ‘use up’.

You are afraid that as soon as you ‘get there’ that “IT” will contact you again. I have been through that over and over again for the past five years. I think THIS TIME might be the ‘charm’, though. It has been very quiet from me for over 2 months NC now and it has been quiet from “IT” for only the past month. Yes, “IT” continued stalking me. In the previous times I have implemented NC, “IT” could only go about 3 months before it would contact me again. Although, I think this time, it just might stick. Hopefully. There is NO REASON for it to contact me any further and if it does, I will take legal action. I think I have sufficiently made “IT” wary for messing with me any further.

Yes, I am determined to make this next week a better one for me, too, Louise. We are all we got and we need to take care of ourselves. All of this has really done a number on me, medically and physically, as well as psychologically. I am not about to sit by and tolerate any more of this madness in my life. Yes, it is difficult letting go because of that LIE OF A BOND they made with us. It isn’t going to work anymore for me.

Take care of yourself, Dear Louise….
We have to be thankful for all of the things we DO have….




Jaycee said that she wasn’t bitter because she didn’t have room for that in her life now and that “IT” wasn’t going to get that part of her too. She has the right idea. Jaycee is a perfect example of the strength of the human constitution. She said that she doesn’t even THINK about it and that she is lost in the moment of life, right NOW.

May Blessings be with Jaycee and may we all listen to everything she has to say. Perhaps the manipulation facet of dealing with sp’s will be looked at more closely now. The manipulation can be overwhelming. Although I was not held in the backyard, I was held as captive through psychological manipulation and nobody will really understand what that was like. There is no sense of ‘self’ because you just live for “IT”.

I hope Jaycee will find her life every bit as perfect as she says it is for her and that she can put this ugly nightmare behind her the way she says she is trying to.


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