By: Linda Hartoonian Almas, M.S. Ed
Last year, I re-connected via social media, with a childhood friend who I had not seen in years. As mothers with children of similar ages, we had a lot to catch up on. As we did, I learned that she has two children who are suffering from a misunderstood and often misdiagnosed disorder.
She is a wonderfully positive person, who freely discusses her children’s struggles, in hopes of educating others about the issue. She advocates fiercely for them, yet seems to successfully strike a balance between speaking on their behalf and encouraging their independence.
The same, only different
Over time, as I learned more, I found that I identified with her emotions regarding her family’s concerns. Her situation is riddled with various highs and lows. Some days bring serious hurdles to jump, along with grave disappointments, while others bring great pride and immense joy. She and her family see many great successes, but these successes are punctuated with frequent challenges.
While psychopathy is not on her radar and we are dealing with two very different issues, it occurred to me that we share some very similar feelings regarding the paths we are on. One day, while beaming with pride regarding her children’s recent achievements, she pointed out how they rose above their health concerns, accomplishing things that many other parents would simply take for granted.
She said that her children were thriving, in spite of the large number of days that their particular illness had “stolen” from them. I noted that this was not the first time that she had used such terminology. She realizes that no matter how well things go, she cannot change that her children have been “robbed” of certain normal life experiences.
My revelation
Her simple statement brought about a “light bulb moment” for me and really got me thinking. Isn’t that how most of us feel about our experiences with psychopathy or the individuals with psychopathic traits who have touched our lives?
They may have literally stolen many things from us, but most importantly, they did, effectively, “steal” portions of our lives. When we attach a unit of measure to what we endured, even if only in terms of thievery, it helps quantify our experiences.
It allows us to make sense of our lost time and gives us something tangible to take away from our experiences. It also gives us a reference point from which we are able to spring forward.
Prior to her statement, I had not thought in such terms. However, she was right. Again, I identified with what she was saying.
Wasted time
How many days, weeks, months, or years did we spend trying to work with the individuals in our lives with psychopathic features? The chances are good that now that we know what we were up against, our responses would be, “too many.” No actions on our parts could have increased our odds.
What I feel I lost from my brush with psychopathy is almost immeasurable. Yet, at the same time, so is what I gained.
Stolen time
In terms of stolen time, what exactly gets taken from us, as these relationships run their course? While there are numerous constants, some specifics may depend on the types of relationships we experienced.
A psychopathic parent will affect us differently than a psychopathic romantic partner. Nonetheless, the behaviors may be similar and just as abusive and devastating. Also, each carry the potential for long term harm. However, we tend to lose different pieces of our innocence, depending on the natures of our associations.
Regardless, we must accept that, while some forms of these relationships did exist, they were not the ones we thought we were having. Our involvements were based on love, caring, and genuine emotion. Little, if any, of that actually occurred on their ends, even if it appeared to for a time. For them, the associations were lies. Because of this, we were unable to take any meaningful actions. Nothing was real. Stolen time.
What about significant life events that we were shortchanged on in our experiences with psychopaths? In life, we encounter many emotionally charged moments, such as the births of children or the deaths of loved ones. We tend to experience a variety of feelings when something special or significant occurs.
Psychopathic individuals, however, do not experience these emotions in the same ways that we do. Therefore, their reactions tend to be quite different from ours. We may feel great joy or pain, they may feel next to nothing out of the ordinary. We may have tried to share our feelings, victories, or defeats, hoping that they could “feel” along with us. They could not. Rather, anger and rage at our attempts ensued.
In spite of our desires, we were forced to walk the emotional experiences alone. Their muted or non-existent affects left us feeling empty and disappointed. Their rages left us upset and confused. Stolen emotions. Stolen relationships.
Worse yet, often, the experiences we have with these individuals are so damaging that we try to eliminate them from our memories completely. Unfortunately, along with forgetting the bad they inflicted, we sometimes lose portions of the good we encountered with others who surrounded us. Stolen memories.
There are numerous other ways they violate us and take from us, as well. The above are only a few examples.
Truths acknowledged
Unfortunately, if we were involved with psychopathic individuals, the truth is that portions of our lives may have been stolen by the disorder. While we may be able to recover the financial or material losses psychopaths create, some of our losses are not tangible items that we can take back. To some extent, we may always have to live with the trappings of these experiences.
As a result, it is important to own the losses. No one likes feeling robbed of special or irreplaceable pieces of our lives. We deserved more than mechanical and insincere responses, if we got any at all.
However, again, our knowledge and understanding can set us free. We must acknowledge any pain, so that we can leave it behind. It is not worth hanging on to.
Rising and conquering
That is not to say that we can or should try to erase what we lived. We should, however, work to thrive. We can do this, not only in spite of our experiences, but because of them. Sometimes, I feel like it took such an experience for me to reach my potential. I know what I learned has caused me to push myself to attempt and achieve things I never otherwise would have.
We can find goodness amongst the setbacks, by using the wisdom that our experiences gave us.
We can surround ourselves with loving people, who truly share our values and treat us well, rather than embrace disordered imposters. In fact, we may come to the point of being able to thank our imposters for showing us what it was like to live “half alive.” Without that education, we may not have been able to recognize “full-on” living. We can come to know calm, regarldess of what they may do.
After taking hits and having pieces of our lives “stolen,” we can recover and have and be more than we ever imagined.
Like my friend, who will never be able to alter the realities surrounding her children’s challenges, we cannot change what was. We can, however, conquer what will be; each of us, in our own ways.
Any Alanons out there, tonight?
Unwilling, AA is full of sick people, some of them sincere about recovery and some of them not.
If you are a woman in recovery, who is sincere, you stick with the winners, get a sponser and listen to her. You work the steps. You do not get involved in relationships for at least a year.
My sponser told me really early on, that, “a man will pat your ass, but a woman will save it”.
Honey, you can’t save AA from the spaths. You can’t rescue the sincere women from scoundels. They will save themselves as they get saner.
I know you’re angry and I understand why, but it’s not your job. Take care of YOU.
Alanon is a great place to go to talk about these concerns…have you ever been?
Hi, Kim. I just celebrated my 25th anniversary in Al-Anon.
Do you need to talk? I’m here.
No, G1S, but thanks. Doing ok, ronight. Had a lucritive day/night at work, and that’s good, but a rush hit at 30 minutes before I was set to go home, so it set me back 2 and a half hours. So frustrating. My relief was 25 minutes late so……
But I’m home now, have the day off tomorrow and need the money, so all and all, a good day.
I was making a call for Al-anon’s because Unwilling seems so dead set on fixing AA. I know AA has a lot of sick pups, but we have to remember the three C’s. I didn’t cause it. I can’t control it. I can’t cure it.
All and all AA is doing pretty well for itself. It helps a lot of people save themselves, and the 12 stepprograms are still the most successful aproach to addiction.
Just thought you might want to throw in your 2 cents.
Congrats on your anniversary. You done good.
OK. Just caught up on the thread.
First of all, there is no guarantee that a “woman is going to save your butt.” Al-Anon is heavily female. We have controllers, Ps, and people willing to stab you in the back just as much as in AA.
Think of alcoholism as a two-person disease, a two-sided coin if that is easier.
On one side, there is the alcoholic. On the other is the enabler, victim, martyr, controller, fixer, rescuer (some of these traits can be more pronounced than others and can vary in strength depending on the circumstances.) Al-Anon members have been all of these to one degree or another before they got into recovery.
Keep in mind, just because somebody walks into a meeting, they still have these behaviors. In fact, going to a 12-Step meeting can amplify rather than mitigate these behaviors if one is around sick people who are “talking the talk, not walking the walk.”
The alcoholic is addicted to the booze and the other side of the coin is addicted to the alcoholic.
They have a very difficult time surviving without each other for many reasons. Their disease needs their sick dynamic. They are both sick and equally sick, but with different aspects (sides of the coin) of the disease.
Some people sincerely want to break out of this cycle. They are the ones who will do the hard word. Others aren’t so interested. This goes for both Al-Anon and AA.
Some get ordered to go there by the courts, which is stupid and highly annoying to members because the success of both programs is the responsibility of each individual member. Nobody is responsible for another member’s recovery. Nobody get somebody well. The judges might as well tell somebody to go to the library and read a book on the subject.
I digress.
We have an expression, “Some people are sicker than others.” We use that for meetings as well. “Some meetings are sicker than others.”
There are plenty of people who, for all sorts of emotional reasons and because of their personalities, LOVE the sick meetings. They can indulge in the sick aspects of their disease while lying to themselves and others that they are “working on their programs.”
Many, many of these people are adult children of alcoholics who have deep, unmet emotional needs. The attention that they get at meetings may the first that they have ever gotten in their lives and it can become addictive. It doesn’t matter that no real recovery is taking place. Somebody is finally paying attention to them.
You cannot judge AA or Al-Anon by one meeting. People who are sincerely working on their recovery will know enough to move on and get away from the sick meetings. There are health meetings out there. You need to go looking for them.
Healthy members will even tell each other and other members or newcomers, if they ask, which are “the good” meetings to go to. “Good meetings” usually translate into “healthy meetings,” but not always.
If you unfortunately pose that question to somebody who is a P, super controlling, super rescuing, their idea of a “good meeting” might be a meeting where their isms (the harmful, dysfunctional behaviorisms of their disease) have the run of the place and will thrive.
Neither Al-Anon nor AA have leaders. They have “trusted servants who do not govern.” This is because all members are supposed to have an equal voice. All members are supposed to be responsible for the success or failure of a meeting.
Lots of people are used to being govern. Our society is set up that way from families, places of employment, to our governmental bodies.
Other people are real happy to let somebody else do the work. Isn’t usually always the same people who volunteer, because nobody else steps forward to help?
Most members don’t want to be bothered with the administrative side of meetings. They just want to walk in, take what they like, and leave.
Al-Anon and AA do not have presidents, executives, managers, or anybody telling them what to do. They offer literature, provide manuals, and it is the responsibility of the members to study these, ask questions, and abide by the guidelines. But since nobody is in control, lots of people do as they please. It’s not recovery, but they can still call themselves an AA or Al-Anon meeting.
Members assume that somebody else is running the show. Since there are no leaders, this creates a vacuum and opens the door for the rescuers, controllers, Ps, and all the other nasties to step in and take control.
Healthy members will stand up to these people and attempt to stop these takeovers, but because of the issues the members have, people can and do freak out over the confrontations and want to take the path of least resistance. This means that the healthy members are pushed out of the meetings.
The sex of these people is irrelevant. There are decent “good” people of both sexes and there are nasty, ugly, cruel, controlling spaths of both sexes in both programs. Sex does not matter. You cannot determine who the good guys are by their sex.
I have noticed one thing in Al-Anon. A member’s need for recognition and validation often brings out the worst controllers, rescuers, and fixes. These people, usually women, take over and run the meetings, run the Districts, and run the Areas. They finally have the recognition and control that they have been desperately craving. They aren’t about to give it up for anything.
I believe women are more prone to this because of society is patriarchal. Women often defer to men. Men often assume the dominant roles in relationships. Not always, but often. It gets twisted around into men dominating women. These women come into Al-Anon and, given the right circumstances, can suddenly find themselves in positions of authority and control that they do not have in their personal lives. They’ve just been handed tickets to become gods.
This is not going to be fixed. This is not going to change. This is not going to stop.
The only thing a person can do, who is sincere in getting recovery, is to find a healthy meeting either face-to-face or online.
And while that is a cute little expression about a man will pat you on the butt and a woman will save yours, that’s all it is. Cute. It isn’t true, not any more than Santa Claus is going to bring you everything that you want at Christmas if you’re good all year.
In Al-Anon, women can be much worse than men. They feel comfortable. They are in their element. Their worst flourishes.
My Area had a group of lesbians (this is nothing against lesbians – it’s just what happened as an example) who took over. They created a clique (their own meeting for gays and lesbians,) played the “poor us, we’re always discriminated against” card, and took over with a relish.
One got herself voted in as the Area Chairperson. She told me that she didn’t think it was necessary to follow Al-Anon. In other words, she did whatever she pleased, controlled the topics that came up at Area meetings, and ignored any challenges to what she was doing – all with a smile on her face. Any time anyone questioned what they were doing (she wasn’t alone, she stacked the committees with her lieutenants,) it was back to, “You hate us because we’re gay, don’t you?”
It was 100% manipulation and control. One transexual quit entirely because s/he was embarrassed what was being done by these women under the banner of their sexual persuasion.
That is a worst case scenario. Not all of Al-Anon or AA is like that. There are good people. Sex is irrelevant. Sexual persuasion is irrevelant.
Al-Anon’s saving grace is it is the only 12-Step program that is focused entirely on the member. It doesn’t have a double-focus such as overcoming an addiction to alcohol, drugs, gambling, food, spending, sex – you name it.
The ONLY thing that Al-Anon deals with is “the member.” It cannot get an alcoholic sober and will tell you that up front. One of its goals is to have the members take their focus off their alcoholics (the other side of the coin) and put it on them. This is what breaks the cycle.
Does this help? Have I explained what goes on and why?
Unwilling,
PLEASE REMOVE YOUR E MAIL ADDY FROM YOUR ABOVE POST. TROLLS WILL PICK UP ON IT.
The thing is the courts think of someone goes to AA when they are in a jam, that the court will not have to p ut them in jail and therefore cause the tax payer costs…..it is stupid on the part of the courts.
you are right that the psychopaths use this good thing as a way to troll for more victims, but like Skylar said, it is VERY difficult to tell a psychopath from a victim, because they PRETEND TO BE VICTIMS, AND PROJECT THE PROBLEM ONTO THE REAL VICITM. Also there are cases where TWO psychopaths hook up and the “loser” in the fight becomes the “victim” until thye find a new victim to “rescue” them.
Unfortunately, I see NO way to educate the entire world or AA or Alanon or half way houses.
Milo’s daughter is a flamingn psychopath but she uses rehab to get a roof over her head when her drug pusher is after her for money….over and over and over.
I wish you luck, but frankly, I don’t think we will change the courts any time soon or AA either. They keep taking them back and back and back. Sometimes that helps, most times I think not.
G1S, Yes and I agree with most everything you’ve said, but I think you misunderstood my cuteness. I was making a statement about the fact that it is up to each and every woman in AA to protect herself from men who prey on vulnerable women. Women come into AA just as sick as the men do. They are often sexual abuse survivors and trauma victims, and yes, I agree that women can be as fusked up as men, and like I said, there are a lot of sick pups, in AA, and Al-anon, too, my point was that, as we get better, we make better choices, and we don’t really need an interlocutor to fix us.
And I do agree that a lot of Al-anons are super control freaks, that believe, “if the world only behaved better…..”
But, I think we both really agree on thios issue so not sure why we’re splitting hairs. Again, I congratulate you on your anniversary.
Grace and Kim, good information….and in ANY group there are always going to be those “controllers” and a psychopath there or there. Whether it is Weight Watchers, hospital volunteers, a church, a little league team….whatever the group. There will always be people who are TOXIC.
I think AA and Alanon because of the kind of “self help” group they are, and most of the members are there because there is major dysfunction in their lives, will be higher in victims/rescuers/abusers just because of the nature of the group.
Like you both said though, it is up to the individual member to take care of themselves and make healthy choices.
Kim, glad you had a good day at work and made a little extra money. That is always nice. I ended up spending extra. LOL Spent the day in town. Did come home with a few nice things though at bargain basement prices. Stocking up on reading material in anticipation for my surgery which is scheduled for August first unless there is a cancelation sooner than that so that it can be moved up sooner. (Joy!) actually I would like to have it ASAP and get it over with. Got some great books that I think will help keep me occupied.
The way the grasshoppers are eating everything up I don’t think I will have to be worried about the garden! LOL Or the potted flowers either…or my new fruit trees, they are eating everything!
Well it is the middle of the night here so I am going to say good night and try to get a bit of sleep. You guys have a good night!
Actually with Sandusky and the priest being convicted, it has been a GREAT day I think!
Thanks, Kim. I don’t think we’re splitting hairs. We posted over each other. I didn’t see your comments until I wrote that long piece.
The cuteness remark – it was for the non-program people.
I hear a lot of cute remarks being slung around, but they’re meaningless. Just people talking the talk. For a newcomer or somebody not familiar with the program, they might think we actually believe those things! 😉
I agree with you. As we get better, we make better choices. We need to do the work though. No magic bullets.
Shades of Sandusky, I know an AA (a Mr. AA) who is so helpful and caring about the real young guys who come into AA. Want to guess why? He was a middle school teacher who told me that he only got involved with male students who were in high school. That made it all right in his mind. They weren’t HIS students.
Thanks for the congratulations. 🙂 I keep going back. Something is working.
Night, Oxy. Glad you found some good bargains. Would love to know the title of your books.
Your fruit trees and garden will take care of themselves.
You just take care of you.
G1S, I hate having to type out what I want to say. I can’t spell. My punctuation is atrocious. And it takes sooooo much time.
I have so much I want to say on this issue, but I’m tired and cantancorious, tonight.
I need to sleep, but would really like to address this tomorrow, ok?
I think there is a gold mine here. So much to be explored.