Lovefraud receives many letters from people who want a sign. Readers ask, “How do I know whether or not someone is a sociopath?” There is one behavior that every sociopath engages in to extreme excess. If I were only allowed one criteria for the diagnosis I would choose this behavior. If someone does not do this thing to extreme excess he/she is certainly not a sociopath. Those of you who have been involved with a sociopath know too well what this one thing is. It is lying.
I enjoy reading old religious texts because I believe there is truly nothing new under the sun. It is comforting to get reassurance of that fact. I mentioned some time ago that female sociopaths are described in the Bible. The cardinal symptom of sociopathy is described best in the Babylonian Talmud! One source I found dated this document to the 6th century.
The Babylonian Talmud describes something called geneivat da’at (literally, theft of one’s mind, thoughts, wisdom, or knowledge), i.e., fooling someone and thereby causing him or her to have a mistaken assumption, belief, and/or impression. The sages believed that there are seven types of thieves and, of these, the most egregious is the one who “steals the minds” of people.
Anyone who has been in contact with a sociopath has had his/her mind stolen. Sociopaths do not interact with anyone without stealing a mind.
Although sociopaths are very proud of their ability to steal minds, this behavior does not make them unique, talented or special. Sociopaths are just the worst species of thief!
Many are baffled by the lying sociopaths engage in. A reader who wrote me recently commented that they lie even when the truth sounds better. Sociopaths continue to lie even after their lies are discovered. This often makes them look silly.
Sociopaths lie in order to steal the minds of others. They do this because of an unrestrained drive for power and control. This drive is present in all of their dealings with others.
The best thing to do if your mind has been stolen by a sociopath is Take it Back! Don’t have any more interactions with that person. Accept that you can never deal with a sociopath without experiencing the theft of your mind.
WhyMe –
A question: did he ever tell anyone else (friends, family, a counselor, a doctor) that he abused you and got violent when drugged/drunk?
If he didn’t, then wasn’t he covering up for himself?
And isn’t THAT (the NOT telling of all of the truth where it should be told) the same thing as lying, achieving as it does, the same end purpose of presenting a false image of himself to the world?
I knew this was the reaction I would get when I wrote what I did about my 3rd hb, but I stand by what I said: he was/is not a sociopath. Nor a psychopath nor a narcissist.
I didn’t say he didn’t have a mental illness. That he’s mentally ill is beyond question. I’m not defending him or what he did. I’m saying that there was NOTHING in his behavior or characteristics or MO that would classify him as a SOCIOPATH. There was no lie, no artifice, in him. He was not manipulative. Or secretive. He was almost painfully obvious in all that he did.
I somehow prefer to think of him as psychotic. He “suffered from” drug & alcohol-induced paranoid delusions.
There’s a huge difference in being delusional & being manipulative, purposefully deceitful, or cruel. I just lived with a sociopath for 8 yrs—one who NEVER abused me in any way….in the classical sense of a “domestic abuser”….J was a sneaky, slimy, bizarrely brilliant strategist & proficient liar who betrayed me for his own ends—for his agenda to have power, control, money, & a younger woman who he could continue his cyber-deceptions & sexual fantasies with…..in a life of extreme ease & opportunity. I know the difference between a sociopath & someone who has psychotic, paranoid episodes.
He (MG) didn’t drink to achieve a state of lack of inhibition. He drank & did drugs as a natural consequence of his work. He worked for a very famous musician for 10 yrs & another less-famous musician for 4 yrs before that. He practically lived on the road & was in a concert environment at least 280 nights a year. And we lived in the band’s compound, so that the “rock&roll” atmosphere was ubiquitous in our lives. Prior to his becoming involved in the music business he was a pitcher for a major league baseball team.
I’m not talking about occasional drug & alcohol use. I’m talking about constant, daily drug & alcohol use, including smoking vast amounts of high-grade pot all day every day. It was the lifestyle.
Yes. I’m still in touch with many of the people he worked with, & 90% of them are still in control of their faculties. But I KNOW the 10% of them who weren’t emotionally/mentally/chemically capable of handling the life style & the substances. And they, like MG, are CASUALTIES….the ones who’re still alive & the ones who were physically unable to handle it & are passed on.
No, aussiegirl, I’m sure he never did have occasion to tell anyone that he abused me & was violent under the influence of drugs or alcohol. That was not the environment we lived in. Ours was a world of “wooly mammoth” male dominance. We lived in close quarters, all of us, & bizarre behavior while drunk or high wasn’t unusual & wasn’t discussed as such. Sex, drugs, & rock&roll, you know. Everyone around us knew what happened in everyone’s hotel room or in the “Psychondos” (as I called our compound). No One discussed it. It was a fact of the life of being On the Road Too Long.
And I honestly don’t believe that MG knew the extent of his abusive behavior with me. I should clarify “under the influence of drugs & alcohol”: the paranoid, schitzoid, delusional behavior primarily occurred when he was *coming down* from a drug & alcohol roll. And when we traveled OVER WATER. Japan, Australia, Europe, Mexico, Hawaii—always when we were in a place separated from Texas by water. Yeah. Weird. I know. When he’d begin to “land”–either from substances or from over-water travel–he’d buy me jewelry or something & say, “Let’s just don’t talk about it, frog.” And we’d just go on. WE didn’t even discuss it.
One time, during the filming of a movie where the whole band & crew were working (12-18h/7d), his alcoholism became an issue. The head of the teamsters was also heavily involved in AA & had recommended that MG be given time off work to detox. The patriarch of our “Family” came to our psychondo to talk to us about it & MG told him that he didn’t need detox….that we just needed to go to Mexico for a few weeks….. & the patriarch said, “how much $ do you need, MG?” We were given an all-expense-pd 3wk vacay in Mexico. I don’t have to tell you how that turned out.
But he Wasn’t/Isn’t a sociopath. This discussion began because I said I agreed with Dr. Leedom’s assessment that the ONE characteristics that ALL sociopaths share is LYING….& I suggested to NotTooLate that, tho her mate was abusive, he might not NECESSARILY been SOCIOPATHIC. There are so many mental disorders, you know, & they don’t all fall under the sociopath column!
Okay. I’m ready for yall’s adamant rejoinders. 🙂
Dear Whyme,
Sounds like your mind is made up so won’t continue to try to convince you otherwise.
Well WHYME,
Seems like you thought it out. Alcoholics lie and do a lot of obnoxious things under that heading. And it sounds like it fits.
Just sounds like it was tough for you. No way you could have a real partnership with someone who was like that and I guess it seems to me that he cheated you out of the love that you wanted and were willing to be there in hopes of getting back from him.
At the end of the story, we all wanted to believe in their love – whoever they were. And when the ring of it became perversely empty and hollow, when the story turned into something that was more true for us, we have suffered the painful feeling of having been betrayed.
And now, we are challenged to recover from the experience.
Happy new year and best to you going forward in what ever direction is right.
I see what you’re saying whyme.
You are saying that there was nothing sinister about MG. His abuse was not hidden or surprising, just a drama that occurred when he drank. He didn’t plot or plan it. He just lost control of his emotions when drugged/drunk.
It seems like this week, I’ve been recommending to everyone that they read, “why does he do that? inside the minds of angry and controlling men”. So here’s a link.
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656
I read it waiting for the “key” and it finally came in a story he tells about a fictional young man’s sense of entitlement.
This boy was raised, since childhood to think that he owned a plot of land outside the city. It was often pointed out to him as he was growing up and the family would tell him, that will be yours when you grow up.
He grew and one day he went to see “his” plot of land, but there were picnickers there. He was angry that they should trespass without even asking so he tried to chase them out. They looked at him strangely and moved, but didn’t leave. No one respected his land ownership. This continued for years, always trespassers. Finally someone told him, that it was actually a public park and he had no right to it at all. He didn’t get it. He had been told it was his and he felt ENTITLED to it. It took years before he was able to accept, with much persuasion, that it was not his land and never was. he had been misled.
Abusive man feel entitled to abuse. That’s narcissism. Whether they are drunk or not – actually especially if they are drunk, because that is when your true feelings come out – they are showing that they abuse BECAUSE THEY CAN. It may not be the type of sociopathy that my exP had, the sinister disgusting type, but you know what? “Let’s just don’t talk about it, frog.” that’s him telling you he can abuse you and you can’t say a damn thing about it. My exP would say, “I’m done discussing it, conversation over. I won’t hear anymore.” Narcissism pure and simple. I know evil when I hear that phrase, it takes your right to speak away. that’s evil.
Thanks for all your clarifications.
Ox Drover, an abuser (online) once used that argument against me when he was arguing for staying in a marriage with domestic violence. When I could counter all his arguments, he said, “looks like you have made up your mind.” I thought it made it lose-lose for me – either I can’t get a point heard, or I get written off as stubborn when I thought I had valid points – ones that all of you here would agree with. (I knew he was an abuser because he was always putting down the victims.) I know you don’t mean it that way.
I think the greatest difficulty is when you live with someone and you think you know that person. I knew what it was like living with him – we couldn’t communicate on a difficult topic because he was intimidating, pushy, etc. But I also know that he wasn’t the type to deliberately lie or cheat. He always insisted on declaring taxes, even if he mowed someone’s lawn for $20. Maybe it was all a part of impression management, and while he didn’t utter dishonest words, he would tell “technical lies” by omitting parts of the story. So you could say he was deceptive. But mostly, I think he lied to himself because he really is delusional and would confidently tell any counselor that he was in the right, even if perpetrated an act of assault. And the counselor would validate him because “he has feelings too” and that “change comes very slowly”.
I guess whenever I looked at lists of abuse symptoms, some would seem to jump at me and others I would scratch my head over. It could be the wording. If it didn’t say “he tells lies” but “he manipulates the situation by getting you to be sympathetic to him” I would’ve agreed immediately.
The other question someone raised about telling others about the abuse – he never thought it was abuse. He said that the 6 month abusers program he did said abuse was what the victim perceived, so it was all in my perception. As far as he was concerned, it was all love. And that he did tell others. He would tell everyone about how much he loved us and how much he had let us down. Even his highly renowned psychologist gave him a great report for the sentencing and told me that I couldn’t leave him because he loved his kids but had parenting issues. He also said he saw no psychopathology. My heart sank. Not another professional that has been duped.
People who knew about the assault thought that I was too dismissive about the impact of his trial and that no marriage would survive a court case. Funny how he could turn his perpetration of violence into getting sympathy for being arrested and facing trial. They said if I valued our marriage, I would have somehow dropped the charges (they couldn’t be dropped anyway) because it was obvious he “loved” his family but had an “anger issue”. Yes, these were my friends! They were not nasty people, so it is hard to cut the friendship, esp when they say they really want to support me and have told me that. I have given them articles on abuse by Bancroft and others. Don’t know if it has had any impact because they still have him over and try to help him out. Wonder if 2011 is the year when I should gather all his “nice” allies and tell them he is a sociopath.
Whyme, your partner that wasn’t a “classic” domestic abuser but controlling and manipulative? Well, that’s domestic violence, or at least that’s how most organizations (including the police where I live) define domestic violence. It is a pattern of control and manipulation in order to coerce or intimidate the intimate partner.
Nope. Psychotic. Delusional. Not sociopathic. Not even narcissistic. Episodically delusional. He wasn’t controlling. He wasn’t manipulative. He wasn’t deceitful.
HE WAS NUTS.
Schizophrenics are mentally ill & can very often be abusive, but they’re NOT sociopaths. Same same.
Youda hadda been there. I don’t know how many of you have lived in the world of SexDrugs&Rock&Roll, but it’s not unusual there.
I know all about drunks who drink to let their “real selves” come out”, too. I’ve known a few of them. MG was adorable when he was drunk. It was when he was COMING DOWN from days of heavy drinking & heavy drugs—when his mind was totally BLOWN—that he became a paranoid psychotic.
No attempt to defend MG. He made my life Heaven & HELL for 6 yrs. Until I realized that I would no longer run for my life, & that I was stooopid to think it’d ever change.
(Did you ever see “A Beautiful Mind”? He wasn’t sociopathic. He was NUTS.)
Just putting him in the right mentally ill column. And he IS Mentally Ill. He don’t hafta be a sociopath to be MENTALLY ILL.
But healing from MG was a comparative snap because I KNOW, without one doubt, how much he deeply truly loved me.
J was/is a deceitful, manipulative, lying sociopath, classic, pure & simple…..healing from J, knowing that he Exhibited love for me in every way, but never loved me, wasn’t/isn’t capable of LOVE—-That one has been a stone M-F’n bitch.
And a bitch I’m NOT taking forward into the NEW YEAR!!! whoop! I’m CC Invictus in 2011!
Here:
“The differential diagnosis of mania includes schizophrenia, drug-induced states, and organic disorders. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between mania and schizophrenia, especially if psychotic symptoms are prominent, incongruent with the underlying mood, or persist after the overactivity subsides. Such diagnostic difficulties are commonly found in cases presenting in adolescence. Drug-induced states and organic conditions must also be included in the differential diagnosis. Steroids, stimulants, and antidepressants are known to induce manic symptoms and a large variety of other drugs have al so been implicated. Secondary mania can occur due to a variety of neurological lesions and metabolic or other states affecting brain functioning. Sometimes the delirium of severe mania can itself resemble that of an acute confusional state. Alcohol and other substance abuse are important co-morbid conditions, and their intake-often escalates during acute episodes of mania, sometimes masking or clouding the presentation. ”
http://www.bipolarhome.org/mania.html
Missy,
I know this post comes a little late as I’m just now reading these over.
I wanted to comment about the idea that the woman your spath has now isn’t as attractive and is older.
Had my spath not directly lied to me on what he sees is “attractive” (myself and his ex wife, being attractive and thin), and started love bombing a heavier set woman that he claimed he could never date (You know I can’t have sex with a fat chick), the bells went off as loud as the church bells at the abbey chica.
It doesn’t MATTER what the new one looks like!!!IT DOESN”T MATTER….I could have been Cindy Crawford or two ton tessy, it didn’t MATTER anymore….because his “needs” had changed. It wasn’t about sex this time, as it was about nailing MONEY…not that’d not take an attractive woman if he could possibly land one AND the money, but heavier set women that are on the dating sites he’s on SCREAM “I”M VULNERABLE”….and guess what they ALL have in common? That’s right, MONEY! They are well established women. And Mr. Wonderful is DEEPLY in debt (I personally thinks he steals it, don’t know how, but that’s what I think), and is paying out a heap in child support, as well as spending money left and right on all he wants.
Anyway, I think it’s easy to get hooked into the notion that the next one is pretttier or uglier than we are. When it isn’t even ABOUT that at all.
She is as objectified and as much as a target as we all were.
I feel very sorry for those women. And if there was any way I could possibly expose him MORE, I would do it.
I got the blessing of doing it twice. Sure wish it was more.
Piece of shit.
Why Me.
I would like to sorta bottom line this for ya chica.
Mental Illness= TOXIC. Period.
Alcohol/drug combo mental illness= TOXIC.
There are SOME mental illnesses that are treatable. I don’t believe (just my opinion) that your situation involved JUST ONE mental illness. Perhaps Cluster B. But either way, there ISN”T justification for abuse of any kind, whether they are Mentally Ill or not.
Other than those FEW mental illnesses that are treatable (and providing the patient is WILLING to use medications/therapy to MANAGE their symptoms), MANY Cluster B’s USE alcohol/drugs. Ex Spath was INTENSELY alcoholic and remains so. Doesn’t see that he has an issue.
Not sure if it was you or someone else who micromanaged (for lack of a better word,sorry tired here), what LYING is, however, whether it’s by omission, a half truth or an outright BLATANT lie, a lie is a lie is a lie. DECEIT is in fact LYING with the INTENT TO DECEIVE.
My ex spath was “honest” in some areas. Paying his taxes, house payments etc (until recently), while he flat out LIED about things he KNEW would DECEIVE me or others around him.
A lie is a lie
And toxic is toxic.
I’m getting off my soapbox now 🙂